Recent Posts

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21
You didn't answer the question... Grime said eddie, alerted to CC... I think that's rubbish

You are asking me to judge something I'm not qualified to judge. You are giving your opinion, but Grime's opinion has more value than yours in my opinion.
22
When Eddie alerted in the corner of the bedroom Martin Grime gives us an explanation of what he thinks is happening.  Personally I have had an interest in physics and in gas stratification all my life and I had doubts that Martin got the physics right.

What did he actually say: http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

"Apartment 5 A

Ok what was done was we deployed the victim recovery dog into the apartment and by experience and the training of the dog what I first noticed is that as soon as I came in that the dog was very excited and as a handler I can pick up his body language etc and it would appear to me that as soon as he has come into the house he's picked up a scent that he recognises and he has then gone through the apartment trying to source where that scent source has come from and as he has worked through the house the only two places where he picks up enough scent to give me the bark alert are in this bedroom, in this corner where he was barking.

What we have to be able to understand in a situation such as this is in a hot climate with the apartment being closed down, the scent will build up in a particular area. If there isn't a scent source in here, i.e. a physical article where the scent is emitting from, any scent residue will collect in a particular place due to the air movement of the flat, the apartment and what I would say in this case is that there is enough scent in that area there for him to give me a bark indication but the source may not be in that cupboard, the source may well be in this room somewhere else but the air is actually pushing into that corner. But strong indication and I would say its positive for things that he is trained to find, which will be part of a separate debrief."


I have no issue with what he says in the first paragraph as he is basically describing his dog's behaviour and who would be better to know to that than him?  No one TBH.

The last sentence of the next paragraph is his judgement and based on his experience I wouldn't question it.

But why did he attempt to give us a physics lesson in the second quoted paragraph?

"What we have to be able to understand in a situation such as this is in a hot climate with the apartment being closed down, the scent will build up in a particular area. If there isn't a scent source in here, i.e. a physical article where the scent is emitting from, any scent residue will collect in a particular place due to the air movement of the flat, the apartment and what I would say in this case is that there is enough scent in that area there for him to give me a bark indication but the source may not be in that cupboard, the source may well be in this room somewhere else but the air is actually pushing into that corner."

Are there any scientific experiments performed that back up what he thinks is happening?

It is also interesting that he too nominates the cupboard as the source in a fashion.  "but the source may not be in that cupboard, the source may well be in this room somewhere else"  on the provision he has his physics right!

Looking at the video there is a clear correlation between the 2nd or 3rd shelf of the cupboard and the alert being given immediately after sniffing the air in the cupboard compartment.

If the source was "somewhere else" would the maximum concentration of cadaver odour ever accumulate on the 3rd shelf of the cupboard?

I'll add the link to the video of Eddie doing a check in the main bedroom apartment 5A later.
https://youtu.be/3EHJjpXii9o?t=122  from the edited version.  Unfortunately Martin walks in front of the camera at the critical moment.


23
I take it they have no body, but they have a stick, or a witness who saw a stick.   Yes if the site was cleaned up. and the blow was to the larynx maybe.  Heart can stop and death occur.
"Tracheobronchial injury (TBI) is damage to the tracheobronchial tree (the airway structure involving the trachea and bronchi).[2] It can result from blunt or penetrating trauma to the neck or chest,[3] inhalation of harmful fumes or smoke, or aspiration of liquids or objects.[4]

Though rare, TBI is a serious condition; it may cause obstruction of the airway with resulting life-threatening respiratory insufficiency.[2] Other injuries accompany TBI in about half of cases.[5] Of those people with TBI who die, most do so before receiving emergency care, either from airway obstruction, exsanguination, or from injuries to other vital organs. Of those who do reach a hospital, the mortality rate may be as high as 30%.[6]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracheobronchial_injury
Crushed larynx was what I was really after.
24
A random question related to another case:- Is it possible to beat a child to death with a stick & leave absolutely no forensic traces of injury or death except remnant scent?
I take it they have no body, but they have a stick, or a witness who saw a stick.   Yes if the site was cleaned up. and the blow was to the larynx maybe.  Heart can stop and death occur.
"Tracheobronchial injury (TBI) is damage to the tracheobronchial tree (the airway structure involving the trachea and bronchi).[2] It can result from blunt or penetrating trauma to the neck or chest,[3] inhalation of harmful fumes or smoke, or aspiration of liquids or objects.[4]

Though rare, TBI is a serious condition; it may cause obstruction of the airway with resulting life-threatening respiratory insufficiency.[2] Other injuries accompany TBI in about half of cases.[5] Of those people with TBI who die, most do so before receiving emergency care, either from airway obstruction, exsanguination, or from injuries to other vital organs. Of those who do reach a hospital, the mortality rate may be as high as 30%.[6]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracheobronchial_injury
25
I doubt it very much.

I'll come back to it after re-reading the forensic evidence in the Bianca Jones case (although I do think Lane is guilty).
Lisa Irwin, Madeleine McCann, Bianca Jones.....alerts beside beds/wardrobes in all 3 cases.
26
A random question related to another case:- Is it possible to beat a child to death with a stick & leave absolutely no forensic traces of injury or death except remnant scent?

I doubt it very much.
27
That's an interesting observation Brietta and would explain the alerts in 5a but not elsewhere. It would be interesting to know if any of the chemicals used by CSI have an impact on these dogs. Maybe someone has come across this previously.

Did Grime or Harrison ever make reference to this possibility in any of their conclusions because if they didn't I feel that was a serious ommission.
Wasn't it noted by Grime that the effects of masking are minimised.  The police would know if chemicals used by the police routinely prevented a cadaver dog from doing its job.

"The dogs' passive CSI alert provides an indication as per their training and does not vary. They only give an alert when they are 'positive' that the target of the odour is present and immediately accessible. If they had any doubts they would not give an alert. EVRD gives an alert by means of a vocal bark. The variations in the vocal alert can be explained by many reasons such as 'thirst' or 'lack of air due to effort'. Every alert can be subject to interpretation, it has to be confirmed. The signals of an alert are only just that. Once the alert has been given by the dog, it is up to the investigator/forensic scientist to locate, identify and scientifically provide the evidence of DNA, etc. " http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm
28
A random question related to another case:- Is it possible to beat a child to death with a stick & leave absolutely no forensic traces of injury or death except remnant scent?
29
I still think that Eddie was influenced by something to alert as he did in apartment 5A and all I can think of are scents left by the previous investigation which used substances with which he was likely to be familiar and 5A the only place which had been treated with them.

That's an interesting observation Brietta and would explain the alerts in 5a but not elsewhere. It would be interesting to know if any of the chemicals used by CSI have an impact on these dogs. Maybe someone has come across this previously.

Did Grime or Harrison ever make reference to this possibility in any of their conclusions because if they didn't I feel that was a serious ommission.
30
Time to get back on topic ... Is this another example of a potentially crucial error by the VRD handler?
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