UK Justice Forum

Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: sadie on October 10, 2018, 01:03:55 PM

Title: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: sadie on October 10, 2018, 01:03:55 PM
The fact that Amaral made up his mind that Madeleine was dead and that they were anly searching for a dead Madeleine, almost from day 1 is disgraceful. 8()(((@#

Also the way that he decided, without any evidence, to Stick it all on The Mccanns  ?8)@)-)



There were many more things, but the two above were so destructive to ever finding Madeleine.   Seems he didn't care.

26
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: G-Unit on October 10, 2018, 01:22:03 PM
The fact that Amaral made up his mind that Madeleine was dead and that they were anly searching for a dead Madeleine, almost from day 1 is disgraceful. 8()(((@#

Also the way that he decided, without any evidence, to Stick it all on The Mccanns  ?8)@)-)



There were many more things, but thepublic two above were so destructive to ever finding Madeleine.   Seems he didn't care.

It seems to have escaped your notice that Amaral wasn't 'in charge' of the first investigation, Neves and  Encarnacao were above him, with the Public Prosecutor supervising all of them. Perhaps it suits your agenda to suggest he was in charge and directing how the investigation proceeded, but it's a myth.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 10, 2018, 01:23:32 PM
It seems to have escaped your notice that Amaral wasn't 'in charge' of the first investigation, Neves and  Encarnacao were above him, with the Public Prosecutor supervising all of them. Perhaps it suits your agenda to suggest he was in charge and directing how the investigation proceeded, but it's a myth.

Goncalo Amaral left the investigation in early October 2007 and it continued on for around 10 months yet supporters only consider him as being within the PJ.  "it is all Amaral's" fault is their cry.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 10, 2018, 01:37:57 PM
It seems to have escaped your notice that Amaral wasn't 'in charge' of the first investigation, Neves and  Encarnacao were above him, with the Public Prosecutor supervising all of them. Perhaps it suits your agenda to suggest he was in charge and directing how the investigation proceeded, but it's a myth.
Was Amaral only following orders then?
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Eleanor on October 10, 2018, 01:47:34 PM
Was Amaral only following orders then?

Amaral was the Lead Detective.  And it appears to have taken Rebelo quite some time to clear up the mess after Amaral was taken off the case.  So Amaral can't have been paying much attention to orders.  Or order either.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: G-Unit on October 10, 2018, 01:57:09 PM
Was Amaral only following orders then?

Because there were people above him, you mean?.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 10, 2018, 02:03:50 PM
The fact that Amaral made up his mind that Madeleine was dead and that they were anly searching for a dead Madeleine, almost from day 1 is disgraceful. 8()(((@#

Also the way that he decided, without any evidence, to Stick it all on The Mccanns  ?8)@)-)



There were many more things, but the two above were so destructive to ever finding Madeleine.   Seems he didn't care.
Given the number of diligences on file that came after day 1 and involved a live Madeleine, your post is nonsense.

imo
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 10, 2018, 02:16:02 PM
There is much in the public domain that justifies criticism of the PJ
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: sadie on October 10, 2018, 03:07:47 PM
I dont believe that Madeleine was a normal subject for trafficking.   I believe that she and possibly Joana were selected because of their elite historical bloodlines.  As such it is likely that neither of them will have been sexually abused.


All in my honest opinion based upon deep research.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 10, 2018, 03:47:40 PM
So if there are no signs whatsoever of activity from the PJ at all then we are not allowed to criticise and must instead assume they are beavering away dilligently behind the scenes, almost certainly n the verge of cracking the case?  Righty-ho then.  ^*&&
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 10, 2018, 03:53:14 PM
So if there are no signs whatsoever of activity from the PJ at all then we are not allowed to criticise and must instead assume they are beavering away dilligently behind the scenes, almost certainly n the verge of cracking the case?  Righty-ho then.  ^*&&

We don't see £millions being spent by the PJ and they are assisting Scotland Yard when they want to search Praia Da Luz and interview their chosen suspects.   They may well be doing other things but it is the Portuguese way to remain silent.  They may not have done so back in 2007 and stories were leaked but this time they are not. Of course in 2007 team McCann were also leaking stories IMO
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: xtina on October 10, 2018, 03:54:50 PM
I dont believe that Madeleine was a normal subject for trafficking.   I believe that she and possibly Joana were selected because of their elite historical bloodlines.  As such it is likely that neither of them will have been sexually abused.


All in my honest opinion based upon deep research.


No sadie........i am not mean at all .....its just I do not believe maddie was abducted.....
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 10, 2018, 04:08:13 PM
We don't see £millions being spent by the PJ and they are assisting Scotland Yard when they want to search Praia Da Luz and interview their chosen suspects.   They may well be doing other things but it is the Portuguese way to remain silent.  They may not have done so back in 2007 and stories were leaked but this time they are not. Of course in 2007 team McCann were also leaking stories IMO
We have no idea how much the PJ have spent on a second investigation do we?  All that manpower and hard work they've put into it, it might well be double what Operation Grange have spent for all we know!  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 10, 2018, 04:11:47 PM
We have no idea how much the PJ have spent on a second investigation do we?  All that manpower and hard work they've put into it, it might well be double what Operation Grange have spent for all we know!  @)(++(*

Davel thinks nothing is going on except an attempt to obstruct Scotland Yard.   

We don't hear any praise being given to the PJ by the McCanns. 

We don't hear the PJ begging bowl being rattled every 6 months for more funding from the Portuguese government.

The PJ investigation may have cost double that of Scotland Yard but I doubt it as they have had no need for translation costs and flights and hotels over to have a jolly holiday at the crime scene. 
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 10, 2018, 04:15:14 PM
Davel thinks nothing is going on except an attempt to obstruct Scotland Yard.   

We don't hear any praise being given to the PJ by the McCanns. 

We don't hear the PJ begging bowl being rattled every 6 months for more funding from the Portuguese government.

The PJ investigation may have cost double that of Scotland Yard but I doubt it as they have had no need for translation costs and flights and hotels over to have a jolly holiday at the crime scene.
So do you think there's a bottomless pit in Portugal as far as funding this case goes- how many years in total have PJ been investigating?  It must amount to a pretty penny, yet funnily enough I also don't hear much criticism ffrom the Portuguese about the amount being spent on one foreign missing child.  Could it possibly be that it's because they're actually not spending very much time or money trying to crack this case at all?
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 10, 2018, 04:22:21 PM
So do you think there's a bottomless pit in Portugal as far as funding this case goes- how many years in total have PJ been investigating?  It must amount to a pretty penny, yet funnily enough I also don't hear much criticism ffrom the Portuguese about the amount being spent on one foreign missing child.  Could it possibly be that it's because they're actually not spending very much time or money trying to crack this case at all?

You are missing the point.  Perhaps you could read my post again.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: jassi on October 10, 2018, 04:28:17 PM
I think it not beyond the bounds of possibility that some OG funding has been redirected to Portugal for their assistance in this case.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 10, 2018, 04:46:10 PM
So if there are no signs whatsoever of activity from the PJ at all then we are not allowed to criticise and must instead assume they are beavering away dilligently behind the scenes, almost certainly n the verge of cracking the case?  Righty-ho then.  ^*&&
Hyperbole on top of Portu-bashing.

Nicola Wall got in, assessed the case, got out again, and got on with cracking solvable cases.

As for the Porto investigation, the fact that you are ignorant of what has been going on, means precisely that - you are ignorant of what has been going on, no more and no less.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 10, 2018, 05:29:44 PM
for all your research youve added little if anything that wasnt already known IMO.


Like SiL said the otherday
"You do come up with some corkers".


Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 10, 2018, 05:50:37 PM
You are missing the point.  Perhaps you could read my post again.
I’ve read it again.  Now what?
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 10, 2018, 05:52:35 PM
Hyperbole on top of Portu-bashing.

Nicola Wall got in, assessed the case, got out again, and got on with cracking solvable cases.

As for the Porto investigation, the fact that you are ignorant of what has been going on, means precisely that - you are ignorant of what has been going on, no more and no less.
Oh I didn’t realise Nicola Wall had left Operation Grange, when was that announced?
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: John on October 10, 2018, 05:54:27 PM
The fact that Amaral made up his mind that Madeleine was dead and that they were anly searching for a dead Madeleine, almost from day 1 is disgraceful. 8()(((@#

Also the way that he decided, without any evidence, to Stick it all on The Mccanns  ?8)@)-)



There were many more things, but the two above were so destructive to ever finding Madeleine.   Seems he didn't care.

Please stop posting that there was no evidence Sadie because that is untrue.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 10, 2018, 06:16:29 PM
Please stop posting that there was no evidence Sadie because that is untrue.

none of the evidence used to make the mccanns arguidos was confirmed...Pedro daCarmo siad there is no evidence against the Mccanns....
Sounds like Sadie is quite right
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: John on October 10, 2018, 06:39:49 PM
none of the evidence used to make the mccanns arguidos was confirmed...Pedro daCarmo siad there is no evidence against the Mccanns....
Sounds like Sadie is quite right

No, Sadie is completely wrong. The Portuguese AG would never have permitted the case to go as far as it did unless there was compelling evidence against the suspects. One has to remember that the police had at their disposal much more evidence over and above that made public. That evidence aside, the parents in refusing to cooperate fully in an investigation in which its principal aim was to find their own missing child was appalling and must have raised many eyebrows both in Faro and in London.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 10, 2018, 06:46:56 PM
No, Sadie is completely wrong. The Portuguese AG would never have permitted the case to go as far as it did unless there was compelling evidence against the suspects. One has to remember that the police had at their disposal much more evidence over and above that made public. That evidence aside, the parents in refusing to cooperate fully in an investigation which was attempting to find their own child was appalling and must have raised many eyebrows both in Faro and in London.

Speculation... The, arguidos have to be informed of all evidence against them... The evidence us in the files... And none of it was confirmed... In my view the only eyebrows  raised in London would be, at the incompetence of the Portuguese... At least the present investigation admit there is no evidence against the mccanns
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: John on October 10, 2018, 07:04:18 PM
Speculation... The, arguidos have to be informed of all evidence against them... The evidence us in the files... And none of it was confirmed... In my view the only eyebrows  raised in London would be, at the incompetence of the Portuguese... At least the present investigation admit there is no evidence against the mccanns

That's incorrect because I know for a fact that there is a substantial amount of evidence.  Whether SY chooses to act on it is another matter completely.

To go back to the opening post for a moment.  The PJ made their decision on the basis of all the evidence available to them at the time.  Only they know the extent of that evidence. They chose to pursue Robert Murat before pursuing the missing child's parents.  They cannot be criticised for merely doing their job in what was extremely difficult and unusual circumstances.  The parents did themselves no favours by refusing to cooperate fully IMO.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 10, 2018, 07:17:54 PM
That's incorrect because I know for a fact that there is a substantial amount of evidence.  Whether SY chooses to act on it is another matter completely.

To go back to the opening post for a moment.  The PJ made their decision on the basis of all the evidence available to them at the time.  Only they know the extent of that evidence. They chose to pursue Robert Murat before pursuing the missing child's parents.  They cannot be criticised for merely doing their job in what was extremely difficult and unusual circumstances.

how do you know for a fact.....thats a sweeping statement that requires some sort of cite...I know for  afact all the evidence has to be declared at the arguido stage....
the Pj persued the mccanns because they thought the dogs were 100% accurate...thats a fact and is in  files...the PJ got it badly wrong
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 10, 2018, 07:30:57 PM
That's incorrect because I know for a fact that there is a substantial amount of evidence.  Whether SY chooses to act on it is another matter completely.

To go back to the opening post for a moment.  The PJ made their decision on the basis of all the evidence available to them at the time.  Only they know the extent of that evidence. They chose to pursue Robert Murat before pursuing the missing child's parents.  They cannot be criticised for merely doing their job in what was extremely difficult and unusual circumstances.  The parents did themselves no favours by refusing to cooperaste fully IMO.

are the Pj also not acting on this evidence you claim exists....on a forum where every post has to be qualified with...imo....and its against the rules to talk about the abduction...I find your claim bizarre
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: John on October 10, 2018, 07:46:43 PM
are the Pj also not acting on this evidence you claim exists....on a forum where every post has to be qualified with...imo....and its against the rules to talk about the abduction...I find your claim bizarre

The PJ have collected a lot of evidence as has SY. They are not pursuing anyone as yet on the basis that the evidence so collected is insufficient to mount any prosecution.  IMO, Redwood came closest to taking this case forward but he failed to find Madeleine's remains.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 10, 2018, 07:49:21 PM
The PJ have collected a lot of evidence as has SY. They are not pursuing anyone as yet on the basis that the evidence so collected is insufficient to mount any prosecution.  IMO, Redwood came closest to taking this case forward but he failed to find Madeleine's remains.

you are still speculating...what evidence have SY or the PJ collected and who does it relate to....there is no sign the PJ have done anything
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 10, 2018, 09:34:08 PM
you are still speculating...what evidence have SY or the PJ collected and who does it relate to....there is no sign the PJ have done anything

No Sign? were you expecting one? Did you miss the bit where they said they do not give running commentry and they have rules in places regarding talking about the case.

 IN FACT  SY were quite open about the fact that they depended on the good will of the PJ and made it known they would not talk about a live investigation.   So SY have nothing to declare!  since you are of the opinion that the PJ  have done nothing- because if you could cite  it would not be an opinion- on that same note SY have also done nothing.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Lace on October 11, 2018, 09:47:26 AM
It seems to have escaped your notice that Amaral wasn't 'in charge' of the first investigation, Neves and  Encarnacao were above him, with the Public Prosecutor supervising all of them. Perhaps it suits your agenda to suggest he was in charge and directing how the investigation proceeded, but it's a myth.

Amaral's book suggests he made all the decisions,   I didn't read in his book that he discussed his theory with Neves or Encarnacao.   Amaral wanted the readers to believe he was totally in charge.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: xtina on October 11, 2018, 10:20:43 AM
Amaral's book suggests he made all the decisions,   I didn't read in his book that he discussed his theory with Neves or Encarnacao.   Amaral wanted the readers to believe he was totally in charge.


IYO...that is


I believe he wanted to let the reader/public..... know what he believed happened .....
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Lace on October 11, 2018, 10:55:27 AM

IYO...that is


I believe he wanted to let the reader/public..... know what he believed happened .....

Yes,  he wanted the reader/public to know what he beleived happened and that he was the one who formed the theory of what he believed happened.   Except that he didn't say it might have happened he said it did.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Snowgirl on October 11, 2018, 11:16:49 AM
Amaral's book suggests he made all the decisions,   I didn't read in his book that he discussed his theory with Neves or Encarnacao.   Amaral wanted the readers to believe he was totally in charge.
What you mean is that you read it like that because of your preconceived opinion of him   imo .
Of course he didn’t make all the decisions which if you’d read the files you’d think differently perhaps,although it’s easy to see supporters are never going to believe anything other than what they’ve set in their minds to believe.

Yes,  he wanted the reader/public to know what he beleived happened and that he was the one who formed the theory of what he believed happened.   Except that he didn't say it might have happened he said it did.

He said it was  his conclusion   but I never thought it meant it did happen but you did ?
Anyone can come to a conclusion about anything but it doesn’t mean to say it’s correct .
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: xtina on October 11, 2018, 11:24:52 AM
Yes,  he wanted the reader/public to know what he beleived happened and that he was the one who formed the theory of what he believed happened.   Except that he didn't say it might have happened he said it did.

 he was on the case....from the start...gathered evidence circumstantial ...or whatever....

all you know is what you think happened my ........

bit of a difference ...don't you think.....
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: G-Unit on October 11, 2018, 11:37:02 AM
Amaral's book suggests he made all the decisions,   I didn't read in his book that he discussed his theory with Neves or Encarnacao.   Amaral wanted the readers to believe he was totally in charge.

In Amaral's book (pdf) he mentions the arrival of the DCCB reinforcements, including Neves;

"From now on two deputy national directors, assisted by the Coordinator of the Portimao Department  of Criminal Investigation, will direct the investigations"

The chain of command seems quite clear to me.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Lace on October 11, 2018, 12:02:51 PM
What you mean is that you read it like that because of your preconceived opinion of him   imo .
Of course he didn’t make all the decisions which if you’d read the files you’d think differently perhaps,although it’s easy to see supporters are never going to believe anything other than what they’ve set in their minds to believe.
He said it was  his conclusion   but I never thought it meant it did happen but you did ?
Anyone can come to a conclusion about anything but it doesn’t mean to say it’s correct .


Explain what he says here -   The body, the existence of which has been confirmed by the EVRD and CSI dogs but also by the results of the preliminary laboratory analyses, cannot be found.


A body CONFIRMED.


Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 11, 2018, 12:06:15 PM

Explain what he says here -   The body, the existence of which has been confirmed by the EVRD and CSI dogs but also by the results of the preliminary laboratory analyses, cannot be found.


A body CONFIRMED.
So Amaral thought.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: John on October 11, 2018, 01:13:18 PM
you are still speculating...what evidence have SY or the PJ collected and who does it relate to....there is no sign the PJ have done anything

Surely you don't honestly think SY spent over £12 million and came up with no evidence whatsoever?
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: G-Unit on October 11, 2018, 01:25:58 PM
So Amaral thought.

He wasn't alone in his thoughts and his thoughts didn't dominate or decide the direction of the investigation, which is the point being discussed.

The theory of a fall from the sofa under the window, for example, was Encarnacao's. The request for Mark Harrison's services came from Encarnacao and it was he who decided which searches were carried out by the UK dogs.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 11, 2018, 01:45:42 PM
He wasn't alone in his thoughts and his thoughts didn't dominate or decide the direction of the investigation, which is the point being discussed.

The theory of a fall from the sofa under the window, for example, was Encarnacao's. The request for Mark Harrison's services came from Encarnacao and it was he who decided which searches were carried out by the UK dogs.

So none of them realised there, was no confirmation of a cadaver... Pathetic really
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Snowgirl on October 11, 2018, 02:45:01 PM

Explain what he says here -   The body, the existence of which has been confirmed by the EVRD and CSI dogs but also by the results of the preliminary laboratory analyses, cannot be found.


A body CONFIRMED.
Yes of course the existence of a body was confirmed , had to have been  a body those places the best dogs in their field  in the world  picked up on ....”it cannot be found “... he says? So that’s true ?  It still hasn’t been found ?
The preliminary lab analyses said so too ? Yes .

 You  interpret words and sentences in a manner which fits your belief instead of the real meaning imo.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Lace on October 11, 2018, 05:50:55 PM
Yes of course the existence of a body was confirmed , had to have been  a body those places the best dogs in their field  in the world  picked up on ....”it cannot be found “... he says? So that’s true ?  It still hasn’t been found ?
The preliminary lab analyses said so too ? Yes .

 You  interpret words and sentences in a manner which fits your belief instead of the real meaning imo.

No existence of a body was confirmed,  neither by the dogs or the DNA.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 11, 2018, 06:06:42 PM
No existence of a body was confirmed,  neither by the dogs or the DNA.
wrong.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 11, 2018, 06:19:57 PM
wrong.

No you are wrong... Explain how a body was confirmed
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Lace on October 11, 2018, 06:28:28 PM
wrong.

How am I wrong?
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 11, 2018, 07:05:26 PM
wrong.

Without an explanation you should state it's your opinion... But you ate wring any way
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 11, 2018, 07:17:11 PM
Without an explanation you should state it's your opinion... But you ate wring any way
I translate that as you are saying I'm wrong.  Well in my theory there was a body and the DNA tests and the cadaver dog results have not proved that wrong.  That is why I said to Lace "wrong" when lace said "No existence of a body was confirmed,  neither by the dogs or the DNA".

Maybe I  don't fully understand what "No existence of a body" means but I don't believe the non-existence of a body has been confirmed.
Does "No existence of a body" equal "non-existence of a body"?

In my theory the body is not Madeleine so you can't look for Madeleine's DNA to prove it didn't exist.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 11, 2018, 07:32:19 PM


Im my theory there is a cadaver in the apartment but it isn't Madeleine.  What tests can be applied to prove or disprove that?

The dogs most probably alerted to cadaver odour for that is what they are trained to alert to.

The DNA will not match Madeleine's unless they were closely related.

So I take it that the tests did not exclude the possibility of a cadaver that wasn't Madeleine McCann.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 11, 2018, 07:44:14 PM
I translate that as you are saying I'm wrong.  Well in my theory there was a body and the DNA tests and the cadaver dog results have not proved that wrong.  That is why I said to Lace "wrong" when lace said "No existence of a body was confirmed,  neither by the dogs or the DNA".

Maybe I  don't fully understand what "No existence of a body" means but I don't believe the non-existence of a body has been confirmed.
Does "No existence of a body" equal "non-existence of a body"?

In my theory the body is not Madeleine so you can't look for Madeleine's DNA to prove it didn't exist.

You have misunderstood it....no existence of a body has been confirmed...that is absolutely true

no existence is not the same as non existence
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 11, 2018, 07:53:46 PM

Im my theory there is a cadaver in the apartment but it isn't Madeleine.  What tests can be applied to prove or disprove that?

The dogs most probably alerted to cadaver odour for that is what they are trained to alert to.

The DNA will not match Madeleine's unless they were closely related.

So I take it that the tests did not exclude the possibility of a cadaver that wasn't Madeleine McCann.

the dogs most probably alerted to cadaver odour is your opinion....and not that of any expert
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 11, 2018, 08:13:05 PM
You have misunderstood it....no existence of a body has been confirmed...that is absolutely true

no existence is not the same as non existence
Are you saying "no existence of a body has been confirmed" is equivalent of saying "the existence of a body has not been confirmed"?
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 11, 2018, 08:15:50 PM
Are you saying "no existence of a body has been confirmed" is equivalent of saying "the existence of a body has not been confirmed"?

yes of course it is
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 11, 2018, 08:38:02 PM
yes of course it is
Well I don't think it is. 
If there was a body that wasn't Madeleine what would you expect to find?

If there had been no body there what would you expect to find?

If Madeleine's body had been there what you expect to find?
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 11, 2018, 08:39:31 PM
Well I don't think it is. 
If there was a body that wasn't Madeleine what would you expect to find?

If there had been no body there what would you expect to find?

If Madeleine's body had been there what you expect to find?

The question is... Is there confirmation of a body... And the answer is no
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 11, 2018, 09:13:04 PM
The question is... Is there confirmation of a body... And the answer is no
No the answer was a provisional yes.  DNA was found and the dogs alerted.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 11, 2018, 09:26:12 PM
No the answer was a provisional yes.  DNA was found and the dogs alerted.



There is no confirmation of a cadaver...
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Snowgirl on October 11, 2018, 09:37:26 PM
No existence of a body was confirmed,  neither by the dogs or the DNA.
Oh please ! We know there wasn’t a body confirmed but what do you think these specially trained dogs alerted to? 
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 11, 2018, 09:40:10 PM
There is no confirmation of a cadaver...
Grime said "But strong indication and I would say its positive for things that he is trained to find,...."  DNA was found at the site.


Is DNA a confirmation of cadaver odour alert?  If it isn't why did grime say "DNA etc."
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 11, 2018, 09:43:11 PM
Oh please ! We know there wasn’t a body confirmed but what do you think these specially trained dogs alerted to?
I think we are allowed to claim it most likely was a cadaver or "the past presence of a cadaver"
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Snowgirl on October 11, 2018, 10:06:43 PM
I think we are allowed to claim it most likely was a cadaver or "the past presence of a cadaver"
Yes of course !
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 11, 2018, 10:35:00 PM
I think we are allowed to claim it most likely was a cadaver or "the past presence of a cadaver"
The dog definitely did not alert to the presence of a cadaver, past presence of a cadaver is a possibility, as is item or items contaminated with cadaver animal or human, as is false alerts caused by handler/dog error.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Snowgirl on October 11, 2018, 11:51:09 PM
The dog definitely did not alert to the presence of a cadaver, past presence of a cadaver is a possibility, as is item or items contaminated with cadaver animal or human, as is false alerts caused by handler/dog error.
Cadaver dogs such as Eddie are trained not to and  do not alert to cadaverine from an  animal .
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 12, 2018, 12:00:50 AM
Cadaver dogs such as Eddie are trained not to and  do not alert to cadaverine from an  animal .
Here we go round the Mulberry bush...
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: sadie on October 12, 2018, 01:05:18 AM
Please stop posting that there was no evidence Sadie because that is untrue.

The only 'evidence' that he thought that he had, turned out to be untrue

He thought that Eddie and Keela had proved that Madeleine had died in 5A.  After much reference to various reports and documents, we now know that to be false. 

Apart from one spot by the place where a bedside table would have normally sat, the dogs did not identify anything alarming in 5A. 
The owner of 5A, Tasmin Silences grandpa, had died whilst living in 5A.  His death was in hospital, but the likely place that his mourning widow would have kept his pyjamas and likely his ashes would have been on the bedside table.


You cannot claim the nothings that the dogs came up with were evidence of any kind for a cadavar.

Was there any real evidence, John? 

Cite please

Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: sadie on October 12, 2018, 01:26:28 AM
No, Sadie is completely wrong. The Portuguese AG would never have permitted the case to go as far as it did unless there was compelling evidence against the suspects. One has to remember that the police had at their disposal much more evidence over and above that made public. That evidence aside, the parents in refusing to cooperate fully in an investigation in which its principal aim was to find their own missing child was appalling and must have raised many eyebrows both in Faro and in London.

Oh really?

Was the evidence of the same quality as that used against Leonor Cipriano ?   8)><(

It seeme to me that the questions were aimed at trying to fit them up.  Amaral was in charge and he told Gerry a whopping lie to try and make him confess to something that neither he nor Kate had any part in.  That is the appalling thing about this case.  The Mccanns knew that Amaral was only looking for a dead Madeleine, not a living Madeleine.


The parents were quite correctly advised not to answer the questions and by this time it was very obvious, imo, that The Mccanns knew about what had happened in the Cipriano case. 


In th early days one could pick up on the internet  that Leandro Silva (Leonors partner) had notified The Mccanns of the injustices of the case and the brutality of what happened to Leonor.   Probably the Ambassader / Consul had also made them aware of the Cipriano case and of the injustices and torture in the Michael Cook case.

They must have known that the questions were in place to try and fit them up, in my opinion
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: sadie on October 12, 2018, 01:43:38 AM
Surely you don't honestly think SY spent over £12 million and came up with no evidence whatsoever?

They have plenty of evidence, but the people they are dealing with are part of a mighty organisation, which appears a very benevelant one but this hides this black side of them    They are exceedingly well protected by status, wealth and power   All the above IMO

There are people out there, John, who are untouchables
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: sadie on October 12, 2018, 02:08:06 AM
Cadaver dogs such as Eddie are trained not to and  do not alert to cadaverine from an  animal .
Except that Eddie was trained originally, exclusively on the cadavars of piglets

Once a dog has be trained to something, that training never leaves him.


So he would alert to cadervarine from a piglet.  Roast suckling pig is a great favourite in Northern Spain and Portugal
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 12, 2018, 05:07:51 AM
Except that Eddie was trained originally, exclusively on the cadavars of piglets

Once a dog has be trained to something, that training never leaves him.


So he would alert to cadervarine from a piglet.  Roast suckling pig is a great favourite in Northern Spain and Portugal
No not a properly slaughtered pig - no cadaverine. IMO
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 12, 2018, 07:01:46 AM
Except that Eddie was trained originally, exclusively on the cadavars of piglets

Once a dog has be trained to something, that training never leaves him.


So he would alert to cadervarine from a piglet.  Roast suckling pig is a great favourite in Northern Spain and Portugal

And you get that a lot, in apartments in the Ocean Club?   Sadie, Martin grime was clear that bacon does not cause the dogs to alert.  I am sure he said the dogs could go through a cafe full of people and not alert.


Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and
locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or
terrain. The initial training of the dog was conducted using human blood and
stil born decomposing piglets. The importance of this is that the dog is
introduced to the scent of a decomposing body NOT FOODSTUFF. This
ensures that the dog disregards the 'bacon sandwich' and 'kebab' etc that is
ever present in the background environment. Therefore the dog would
remain efficient searching for a cadaver in a café where the clientele were sat
eating bacon sandwiches. He has additionally trained exclusively using
human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced
training of the dog has also involved the use of collection of 'cadaver scent'
odor from human corpses using remote technical equipment which does not
contact the subject. This method is comparable to the simulation of cross
contamination. It does however differ in that the remote scent samples
recovery does not involve subject matter and therefore is a 'pure' scent
sample. The dog has since initial training gained considerable experience in
successfully operationally locating human remains and evidential forensic
material.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Eleanor on October 12, 2018, 07:04:09 AM
And you get that a lot, in apartments in the Ocean Club?   Sadie, Martin grime was clear that bacon does not cause the dogs to alert.  I am sure he said the dogs could go through a cafe full of people and not alert.


Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and
locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or
terrain. The initial training of the dog was conducted using human blood and
stil born decomposing piglets. The importance of this is that the dog is
introduced to the scent of a decomposing body NOT FOODSTUFF. This
ensures that the dog disregards the 'bacon sandwich' and 'kebab' etc that is
ever present in the background environment. Therefore the dog would
remain efficient searching for a cadaver in a café where the clientele were sat
eating bacon sandwiches. He has additionally trained exclusively using
human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced
training of the dog has also involved the use of collection of 'cadaver scent'
odor from human corpses using remote technical equipment which does not
contact the subject. This method is comparable to the simulation of cross
contamination. It does however differ in that the remote scent samples
recovery does not involve subject matter and therefore is a 'pure' scent
sample. The dog has since initial training gained considerable experience in
successfully operationally locating human remains and evidential forensic
material.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

Eddie reacted to Blood.  Live people bleed.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 12, 2018, 07:10:14 AM
Eddie reacted to Blood.  Live people bleed.

So does Keela

The second dog that we've seen work today is the crime scene dog Keela. She will only indicate to me when she has found human blood, only human blood and it is only blood and there must be something there physically for her to be able to alert to me that's she has actually found something. At this point over here where the victim recovery dog has indicated, as you saw on the video, the crime scene dog had actually given me what we call a passive indication where she freezes in this spot here which would indicate to me that there is some human blood there. She will find blood that's historically very old and she will find anybody's blood, any human blood, which is important to make sure that everybody knows.

The fact that there is other scientific methods being used may stop you recovering any DNA but if you try we'll see what happens. But she is very, very good and when she indicates there is always blood there.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

He says Keela is "very, very good and when she indicates there is always blood there".

Could you explain what causes Eddie's alerts when Keela does not, if you can Eleanor please.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Eleanor on October 12, 2018, 07:15:29 AM
So does Keela

The second dog that we've seen work today is the crime scene dog Keela. She will only indicate to me when she has found human blood, only human blood and it is only blood and there must be something there physically for her to be able to alert to me that's she has actually found something. At this point over here where the victim recovery dog has indicated, as you saw on the video, the crime scene dog had actually given me what we call a passive indication where she freezes in this spot here which would indicate to me that there is some human blood there. She will find blood that's historically very old and she will find anybody's blood, any human blood, which is important to make sure that everybody knows.

The fact that there is other scientific methods being used may stop you recovering any DNA but if you try we'll see what happens. But she is very, very good and when she indicates there is always blood there.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

He says Keela is "very, very good and when she indicates there is always blood there".

Could you explain what causes Eddie's alerts when Keela does not, if you can Eleanor please.

Eddie also alerted to other body fluids from live people.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 12, 2018, 07:22:21 AM
Eddie also alerted to other body fluids from live people.

Does Martin Grime say body fluids "from live people" Eleanor?

'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.RD.) will search for and locate

human remains and body fluids including blood to very small samples in any


Could you explain what "body fluids" would he alert to, excluding blood of course.  The only one I can think of is semen that would come from a live person and the positioning of some of Eddie's alerts make that extremely unlikely.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: slartibartfast on October 12, 2018, 07:34:21 AM
The only 'evidence' that he thought that he had, turned out to be untrue

He thought that Eddie and Keela had proved that Madeleine had died in 5A.  After much reference to various reports and documents, we now know that to be false. 

Apart from one spot by the place where a bedside table would have normally sat, the dogs did not identify anything alarming in 5A. 
The owner of 5A, Tasmin Silences grandpa, had died whilst living in 5A.  His death was in hospital, but the likely place that his mourning widow would have kept his pyjamas and likely his ashes would have been on the bedside table.


You cannot claim the nothings that the dogs came up with were evidence of any kind for a cadavar.

Was there any real evidence, John? 

Cite please

Your post contains so much that is wrong.

There is no evidence that the evidence the PJ had was untrue.

We don’t know that the dogs didn’t alert to Madeleine’s body in the flat.

A cadaver dog alerted in the flat where the blood dog didn’t.

Please stop promoting myths.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 12, 2018, 07:39:47 AM
Your post contains so much that is wrong.

There is no evidence that the evidence the PJ had was untrue.

We don’t know that the dogs didn’t alert to Madeleine’s body in the flat.

A cadaver dog alerted in the flat where the blood dog didn’t.

Please stop promoting myths.

you say stop promoting myths when posters are claiming an alert to a cadaver is confirmrd...you must know taht neither an alert to cadaverine nor cadaver is confirmed....and posting claiming such should include imo
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Eleanor on October 12, 2018, 07:40:28 AM
Does Martin Grime say body fluids "from live people" Eleanor?

'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.RD.) will search for and locate

human remains and body fluids including blood to very small samples in any


Could you explain what "body fluids" would he alert to, excluding blood of course.  The only one I can think of is semen that would come from a live person and the positioning of some of Eddie's alerts make that extremely unlikely.

Semen is one of them.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 12, 2018, 07:48:59 AM
Does Martin Grime say body fluids "from live people" Eleanor?

'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.RD.) will search for and locate

human remains and body fluids including blood to very small samples in any


Could you explain what "body fluids" would he alert to, excluding blood of course.  The only one I can think of is semen that would come from a live person and the positioning of some of Eddie's alerts make that extremely unlikely.

we would need to ask grime what body fluids eddie would alert to...anything else is just guesswork
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: slartibartfast on October 12, 2018, 07:55:46 AM
you say stop promoting myths when posters are claiming an alert to a cadaver is confirmrd...you must know taht neither an alert to cadaverine nor cadaver is confirmed....and posting claiming such should include imo

You need to understand the difference between something not being confirmed and something being proved incorrect.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 12, 2018, 07:57:02 AM
You need to understand the difference between something not being confirmed and something being proved incorrect.

I understand.... Cadaver odour was not confirmed.... Simple and a fact
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: xtina on October 12, 2018, 08:10:30 AM
Oh really?

Was the evidence of the same quality as that used against Leonor Cipriano ?   8)><(

It seeme to me that the questions were aimed at trying to fit them up.  Amaral was in charge and he told Gerry a whopping lie to try and make him confess to something that neither he nor Kate had any part in.  That is the appalling thing about this case.  The Mccanns knew that Amaral was only looking for a dead Madeleine, not a living Madeleine.


The parents were quite correctly advised not to answer the questions and by this time it was very obvious, imo, that The Mccanns knew about what had happened in the Cipriano case. 


In th early days one could pick up on the internet  that Leandro Silva (Leonors partner) had notified The Mccanns of the injustices of the case and the brutality of what happened to Leonor.   Probably the Ambassader / Consul had also made them aware of the Cipriano case and of the injustices and torture in the Michael Cook case.

They must have known that the questions were in place to try and fit them up, in my opinion


I think you will find the information the mccs received was from the M3

who were employed to find anything to dish the dirt on GA...

paid for by the fund.....

post imo
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 12, 2018, 08:12:29 AM
You need to understand the difference between something not being confirmed and something being proved incorrect.

I think you and others need to understand... It is basically impossible to prove the dogs wrong... Even if Maddie turned up this would not prove the dogs wrong. 
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Lace on October 12, 2018, 09:19:18 AM
You need to understand the difference between something not being confirmed and something being proved incorrect.

What are you talking about?

Amaral said in his book that the cadaver dog and the DNA results confirmed there was a dead body in 5a,  they didn't.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: xtina on October 12, 2018, 09:49:47 AM
What are you talking about?

Amaral said in his book that the cadaver dog and the DNA results confirmed there was a dead body in 5a,  they didn't.

Says the expert....not an opinion then ...fact...
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Lace on October 12, 2018, 10:01:08 AM
Says the expert....not an opinion then ...fact...

I am not an expert xtina,  there was no body so any dog alert could not be confirmed.   The DNA results did not prove that Madeleine died in 5a.  So Amaral stating in his book that that the dog and the DNA confirmed a dead body was in 5a is wrong.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: xtina on October 12, 2018, 10:02:55 AM
I am not an expert xtina,  there was no body so any dog alert could not be confirmed.   The DNA results did not prove that Madeleine died in 5a.  So Amaral stating in his book that that the dog and the DNA confirmed a dead body was in 5a is wrong.

IYO.....thats all
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Lace on October 12, 2018, 10:08:33 AM
IYO.....thats all

No in the opinion of the forensic files.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 12, 2018, 10:17:53 AM
IYO.....thats all

It's the opinion of Grime... Harrison... and every canine expert I've read... The alerts do not confirm cadaver odour... Fact not opinion
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: slartibartfast on October 12, 2018, 10:24:56 AM
I understand.... Cadaver odour was not confirmed.... Simple and a fact

...and Sadie claims that this means there was no body in 5a. Which is an incorrect inference.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 12, 2018, 10:30:10 AM
...and Sadie claims that this means there was no body in 5a. Which is an incorrect inference.

There is no confirmation of a body in 5a... To suggest there is an incorrect inference
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: sadie on October 12, 2018, 12:26:10 PM
Your post contains so much that is wrong.

There is no evidence that the evidence the PJ had was untrue.

We don’t know that the dogs didn’t alert to Madeleine’s body in the flat.

A cadaver dog alerted in the flat where the blood dog didn’t.

Please stop promoting myths.

Madeleines body there ?   Half way up the wall ?
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 12, 2018, 12:33:38 PM
Your post contains so much that is wrong.

There is no evidence that the evidence the PJ had was untrue.

We don’t know that the dogs didn’t alert to Madeleine’s body in the flat.

A cadaver dog alerted in the flat where the blood dog didn’t.

Please stop promoting myths.

The evidence  is that the PJ drew incorrect inferences from the alerts
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: sadie on October 12, 2018, 12:45:24 PM
No not a properly slaughtered pig - no cadaverine. IMO
Seems to me that almost every Tom, Dick and Harry had a pig.  Leando Silva and Leonor Cipriano had pigs.   Do you think that every T,D and H slaughtered the pigs properly?

Traces of Cadavarine odour from a pig could easily have found their way into the apartment on someones hands ... a c leaner maybe, but personally I think that the only place where there may have been a cadarvarine odour was fairly high on the wall where a bedside table perobably stood.

A grieving widow probably would have kept the Urn/box with the ashes there.    Also the pyjamas that her loved one died in
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: sadie on October 12, 2018, 12:52:35 PM
And you get that a lot, in apartments in the Ocean Club?   Sadie, Martin grime was clear that bacon does not cause the dogs to alert.  I am sure he said the dogs could go through a cafe full of people and not alert.


Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and
locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or
terrain. The initial training of the dog was conducted using human blood and
stil born decomposing piglets. The importance of this is that the dog is
introduced to the scent of a decomposing body NOT FOODSTUFF. This
ensures that the dog disregards the 'bacon sandwich' and 'kebab' etc that is
ever present in the background environment. Therefore the dog would
remain efficient searching for a cadaver in a café where the clientele were sat
eating bacon sandwiches. He has additionally trained exclusively using
human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced
training of the dog has also involved the use of collection of 'cadaver scent'
odor from human corpses using remote technical equipment which does not
contact the subject. This method is comparable to the simulation of cross
contamination. It does however differ in that the remote scent samples
recovery does not involve subject matter and therefore is a 'pure' scent
sample. The dog has since initial training gained considerable experience in
successfully operationally locating human remains and evidential forensic
material.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
As Rob says, and he is an expert IIRC, the cadavar of a properly slaughtered piglet would not produce cadavarine.

We are talking of the cadavarine of pigs slaughtered by simple folk in their own gardens here.   Would they use proper practices?    I am doubtful

But in any case the most likely source of that alert .... and let's make it clear, there was only one, was the ashes or the deceased pyjamas on the bedside table.  There to comfort the widow in a foreign country

No cadavar would have been stored up the wall .... just think about Sunny
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 12, 2018, 12:58:29 PM
Semen is one of them.

And I put semen but mentioned that it was very unlikely for the dog to have alerted to that in some of his alerts.

Do you have any other bodily fluids that come out of a live person?
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: xtina on October 12, 2018, 01:07:36 PM
Seems to me that almost every Tom, Dick and Harry had a pig.  Leando Silva and Leonor Cipriano had pigs.   Do you think that every T,D and H slaughtered the pigs properly?

Traces of Cadavarine odour from a pig could easily have found their way into the apartment on someones hands ... a c leaner maybe, but personally I think that the only place where there may have been a cadarvarine odour was fairly high on the wall where a bedside table perobably stood.

A grieving widow probably would have kept the Urn/box with the ashes there.    Also the pyjamas that her loved one died in


I think you will find the Portuguese most popular food is fish ...and fish dishes.....

I think you are wrong to say every tom dick and harry have a pig....

unless you have that proof ...and not an excuse....they have

I doubt very much the mccs came into contact with a freshly slaughtered pig ....in a holiday complex.....
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Snowgirl on October 12, 2018, 01:14:27 PM
The evidence  is that the PJ drew incorrect inferences from the alerts
Related to this could you explain in your opinion  why Redwood changed what OG were thinking  I.e.  that Madeleine might not have left her holiday apt.alive ?
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: G-Unit on October 12, 2018, 01:36:05 PM
As Rob says, and he is an expert IIRC, the cadavar of a properly slaughtered piglet would not produce cadavarine.

We are talking of the cadavarine of pigs slaughtered by simple folk in their own gardens here.   Would they use proper practices?    I am doubtful

But in any case the most likely source of that alert .... and let's make it clear, there was only one, was the ashes or the deceased pyjamas on the bedside table.  There to comfort the widow in a foreign country

No cadavar would have been stored up the wall .... just think about Sunny

What? All dead bodies stink eventually no matter how they die. Due to their superior noses dogs are able to detect that smell when humans can't. They can also distinguish between species, which humans can't do either as far as I know.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 12, 2018, 02:03:03 PM
Related to this could you explain in your opinion  why Redwood changed what OG were thinking  I.e.  that Madeleine might not have left her holiday apt.alive ?

Why were the dogs brought in.... Because death in the apartment was a possibility... That is not opinion but fact..
Death in the apartment always was, a possibility
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 12, 2018, 02:04:35 PM
And I put semen but mentioned that it was very unlikely for the dog to have alerted to that in some of his alerts.

Do you have any other bodily fluids that come out of a live person?

Urine.. Nasal mucus.. Mucus from any other orifice
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: sadie on October 12, 2018, 02:29:12 PM

I think you will find the Portuguese most popular food is fish ...and fish dishes.....

I think you are wrong to say every tom dick and harry have a pig....

unless you have that proof ...and not an excuse....they have

I doubt very much the mccs came into contact with a freshly slaughtered pig ....in a holiday complex.....

But the cleaners might have done ... and there is also the possibility that it was planted.   Remember Ccat being produced out of that cupboard and yet what seemed to have alerted Eddie was the pile of folders  and the loose piece of paper on top? 

Wonder how the scent of cadarvarine got there ?
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: sadie on October 12, 2018, 02:32:14 PM
What? All dead bodies stink eventually no matter how they die. Due to their superior noses dogs are able to detect that smell when humans can't. They can also distinguish between species, which humans can't do either as far as I know.

Ask Rob.  He is the one with slaughter house experience IIRC.  Remember he trained as a vet.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: sadie on October 12, 2018, 02:43:32 PM

I think you will find the Portuguese most popular food is fish ...and fish dishes.....

I think you are wrong to say every tom dick and harry have a pig....

unless you have that proof ...and not an excuse....they have

I doubt very much the mccs came into contact with a freshly slaughtered pig ....in a holiday complex.....
Unless one has the time and equipment for fishing, or land for keeping sheep etc.,the cheapest protein has be home grown pork or chickens.  Just breed them and feed them on scraps.

During the war my hubbies family had a part share in a pig.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: sadie on October 12, 2018, 02:46:50 PM
Related to this could you explain in your opinion  why Redwood changed what OG were thinking  I.e.  that Madeleine might not have left her holiday apt.alive ?

Crikey Snowgirl.  Before you joined there were several threads that went over the conclusion that no-one died in 5A.

You cant expect anyone to go over all this YET again

May i suggest that you read back over the past 3 years.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Snowgirl on October 12, 2018, 02:52:00 PM
Crikey Snowgirl.  Before you joined there were several threads that went over the conclusion that no-one died in 5A.

You cant expect anyone to go over all this YET again

May i suggest that you read back over the past 3 years.
I don’t need to read back nor do I need you to answer a question posed specifically  to Davel.
Kindly let him speak for himself.

IMO, someone died in 5a and those supporters who keep on insisting that no one did in order to support Gerry McCann’s claim that the dogs are terribly unreliable are making fools of themselves imo.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: xtina on October 12, 2018, 03:10:09 PM
Unless one has the time and equipment for fishing, or land for keeping sheep etc.,the cheapest protein has be home grown pork or chickens.  Just breed them and feed them on scraps.

During the war my hubbies family had a part share in a pig.


sadie ...they don't need fishing rods ....

there are fish markets fish restaurants ...boats selling fresh fish....

The most you see are chickens.....

even a favorite saying for GA ...is sardine muncher.....

you are wrong with the pigs....The most you see alive are chickens.....
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Eleanor on October 12, 2018, 03:14:47 PM

sadie ...they don't need fishing rods ....

there are fish markets fish restaurants ...boats selling fresh fish....

The most you see are chickens.....

even a favorite saying for GA ...is sardine muncher.....

you are wrong with the pigs....The most you see alive are chickens.....

They kill Pigs in their back gardens around here.  And then they butcher them in their kitchens.  I don't know if they change their clothes before butchering, but I somewhat doubt it.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: xtina on October 12, 2018, 03:28:04 PM
They kill Pigs in their back gardens around here.  And then they butcher them in their kitchens.  I don't know if they change their clothes before butchering, but I somewhat doubt it.

completely different....IMO.

I would also think a completely different culture....

so they walk about with there clothes full of blood ......

is it a holiday complex you live in/near...... or a town....

I thought horse meat was the favorite flavor in France.....

Is it France where you live or Brittany....

Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 12, 2018, 03:32:22 PM
Crikey Snowgirl.  Before you joined there were several threads that went over the conclusion that no-one died in 5A.

You cant expect anyone to go over all this YET again

May i suggest that you read back over the past 3 years.

Sadie that is very unfair.  I too am new and think that if YOU don't want to discuss it then YOU shouldn't. Just because you have been here for years doesn't make you have the right to stop discussions IMO.

Snowgirl I am with you  8((()*/
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 12, 2018, 03:35:48 PM
I see the desperation to try and prove that Eddie alerted to a dead porker is still strong on here.

I believe that Eddie alerted to cadaver and nothing else. I believe that Martin Grime thought the same too.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Eleanor on October 12, 2018, 03:36:45 PM
completely different....IMO.

I would also think a completely different culture....

so they walk about with there clothes full of blood ......

is it a holiday complex you live in/near...... or a town....

I thought horse meat was the favorite flavor in France.....

Is it France where you live or Brittany....

I live in Rural Brittany.  But we do have a large number of houses rented out to holiday makers.

I don't understand why this should be different.

The Pig intestines are removed in the garden and then cleaned out and used for making sausages on the kitchen table.  And very good they are too.

The point is that cadaverine from the Pig's intestines could easily be transferred to elsewhere.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: sadie on October 12, 2018, 03:39:01 PM

sadie ...they don't need fishing rods ....

there are fish markets fish restaurants ...boats selling fresh fish....

The most you see are chickens.....

even a favorite saying for GA ...is sardine muncher.....

you are wrong with the pigs....The most you see alive are chickens.....
Fishing takes time.  A lot especially if you are some miles from water ... and you need a boat (preferably) and rods etc.

The Portuguese as a race are quite poor.  My Portuguese friend, a man of 30 and a computer expert and linguist, (several languages) worked in a hospital and he earned about £7.000 per year working a full week.  That was about 8 years ago.

People in this country would not get out of bed for that sort of money.

One free way of keeping your family properly fed was to keep pigs, breed, feed and slaughter them yourself.  In my opinion, Leandro and Leonor were good parents.


My suspicion is that many of the poorer families in PT would do likewise and keep a pig/pigs




Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: sadie on October 12, 2018, 03:40:58 PM
completely different....IMO.

I would also think a completely different culture....

so they walk about with there clothes full of blood ......

is it a holiday complex you live in/near...... or a town....

I thought horse meat was the favorite flavor in France.....

Is it France where you live or Brittany....

Suggest you try looking Brittany up on a map
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: sadie on October 12, 2018, 03:44:13 PM
completely different....IMO.

I would also think a completely different culture....

so they walk about with there clothes full of blood ......

is it a holiday complex you live in/near...... or a town....

I thought horse meat was the favorite flavor in France.....

Is it France where you live or Brittany....
Cadavar odour hangs around, no need for blood showing cos the odour doesn't (easily) wash out.  Could be on fingers too.

But almost certainly if that was cadavar odour in the bedroom it was from the ashes of Tasmin Silences dead grandpa .. or from his pjays.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: sadie on October 12, 2018, 03:48:15 PM
Sadie that is very unfair.  I too am new and think that if YOU don't want to discuss it then YOU shouldn't. Just because you have been here for years doesn't make you have the right to stop discussions IMO.

Snowgirl I am with you  8((()*/

I am sorry if I have upset you and Snowgirl, and yes you are new, but the facts are that this subject has been done to death and it would take Davel over a week to go though it all.

That is patently too long
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 12, 2018, 03:49:41 PM
Cadavar odour hangs around, no need for blood showing cos it doesn't (easily) wash out.  Could be on fingers too.

But almostr certainly if that was cadavar odour in tghe bedroom it was from the ashes of Tasmin Silences dead grandpa .. or from his pjays.

Can  you show me where it says that ashes contain cadaverine. I don't believe that they do. Why would Tamsin Silence's grandmother keep her dead husbands pyjamas?
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: xtina on October 12, 2018, 03:51:57 PM
Suggest you try looking Brittany up on a map


a friend at works mother lives in Brittany ....in a villa.....

I will have to ask her next time I see her ...

if her mum has pigs in the garden...
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Eleanor on October 12, 2018, 03:52:47 PM
I am sorry if I have upset you and Snowgirl, and yes you are new, but the facts are that this subject has been done to death and it would take Davel over a week to go though it all.

That is patently too long

This is correct, Sadie.  We cannot be expected to rehash and reprovided cites on subjects already discussed every time someone new joins.

There is an adequate Search Facility and everyone can look up another members Posts.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: xtina on October 12, 2018, 03:54:07 PM
I see the desperation to try and prove that Eddie alerted to a dead porker is still strong on here.

I believe that Eddie alerted to cadaver and nothing else. I believe that Martin Grime thought the same too.


I agree with you completely....
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 12, 2018, 03:59:37 PM
This is correct, Sadie.  We cannot be expected to rehash and reprovided cites on subjects already discussed every time someone new joins.

There is an adequate Search Facility and everyone can look up another members Posts.


Perhaps yourself and others who have discussed various topics should just refrain from joining in Eleanor if you want.

I fail to see why new members such as snowgirl and myself shouldn't discuss them.

Also I have noticed on my short time here that it is generally supporters who bring up the dog alerts not sceptics.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Lace on October 12, 2018, 04:02:46 PM

I think you will find the Portuguese most popular food is fish ...and fish dishes.....

I think you are wrong to say every tom dick and harry have a pig....

unless you have that proof ...and not an excuse....they have

I doubt very much the mccs came into contact with a freshly slaughtered pig ....in a holiday complex.....

The problem is that other families stayed in 5a after the McCann's,  so what scent Eddie smelt may not have been something the McCann's left behind.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Eleanor on October 12, 2018, 04:07:53 PM

Perhaps yourself and others who have discussed various topics should just refrain from joining in Eleanor if you want.

I fail to see why new members such as snowgirl and myself shouldn't discuss them.

Also I have noticed on my short time here that it is generally supporters who bring up the dog alerts not sceptics.

Fine, so long as you don't expect other members to provide Cites, and so long as you don't post untruths and myths.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 12, 2018, 04:10:48 PM
Fine, so long as you don't expect other members to provide Cites, and so long as you don't post untruths and myths.

Thank  you Eleanor. Could you clarify who are "other members" please.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Eleanor on October 12, 2018, 04:18:22 PM
Thank  you Eleanor. Could you clarify who are "other members" please.

Members who seem to know a bit more about the case than you do.  This is obviously not your fault.  Some of us have been doing this almost from day one.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Snowgirl on October 12, 2018, 04:25:01 PM
Cadavar odour hangs around, no need for blood showing cos it doesn't (easily) wash out.  Could be on fingers too.

But almostr certainly if that was cadavar odour in tghe bedroom it was from the ashes of Tasmin Silences dead grandpa .. or from his pjays.
Are you suggesting this cadaverine is free floating ? From dead Grandpa’s pjs  for instance  to settle in places Eddie alerted to ?
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: barrier on October 12, 2018, 04:31:48 PM
I see the desperation to try and prove that Eddie alerted to a dead porker is still strong on here.

I believe that Eddie alerted to cadaver and nothing else. I believe that Martin Grime thought the same too.

At least its a recognition that the dogs did actually alert.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 12, 2018, 04:57:15 PM
I see the desperation to try and prove that Eddie alerted to a dead porker is still strong on here.

I believe that Eddie alerted to cadaver and nothing else. I believe that Martin Grime thought the same too.

thats a typical sceptic viewpoint which is not supported by the evidence....which means the sceptic viewpoint is based on a fallacy
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 12, 2018, 05:07:57 PM
I see the desperation to try and prove that Eddie alerted to a dead porker is still strong on here.

I believe that Eddie alerted to cadaver and nothing else. I believe that Martin Grime thought the same too.
And I believe for every drop of rain that falls a flower grows.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: G-Unit on October 12, 2018, 05:13:44 PM
This is correct, Sadie.  We cannot be expected to rehash and reprovided cites on subjects already discussed every time someone new joins.

There is an adequate Search Facility and everyone can look up another members Posts.

Is that a new rule? If I've provided a cite previously I can tell people to go and find it themselves? I can't find it in the Forum Rules.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: slartibartfast on October 12, 2018, 05:17:47 PM
Fishing takes time.  A lot especially if you are some miles from water ... and you need a boat (preferably) and rods etc.

The Portuguese as a race are quite poor.  My Portuguese friend, a man of 30 and a computer expert and linguist, (several languages) worked in a hospital and he earned about £7.000 per year working a full week.  That was about 8 years ago.

People in this country would not get out of bed for that sort of money.

One free way of keeping your family properly fed was to keep pigs, breed, feed and slaughter them yourself.  In my opinion, Leandro and Leonor were good parents.


My suspicion is that many of the poorer families in PT would do likewise and keep a pig/pigs

Average annual wage in Portugal in 2010 was 17,000€.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: slartibartfast on October 12, 2018, 05:19:21 PM
Crikey Snowgirl.  Before you joined there were several threads that went over the conclusion that no-one died in 5A.

You cant expect anyone to go over all this YET again

May i suggest that you read back over the past 3 years.

...and none of those threads provided proof that no one died in 5a.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: G-Unit on October 12, 2018, 05:28:00 PM
Ask Rob.  He is the one with slaughter house experience IIRC.  Remember he trained as a vet.

I don't care what experience he has had, all rotting carcasses stink no matter how they died.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Brietta on October 12, 2018, 05:43:30 PM
And I put semen but mentioned that it was very unlikely for the dog to have alerted to that in some of his alerts.

Do you have any other bodily fluids that come out of a live person?

It is on record that Eddie alerted to a tissue used to clean up after sex.  He alerted in a bedroom, so you should be able to work something out from there if you put two and two together.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Brietta on October 12, 2018, 05:49:48 PM

I think you will find the Portuguese most popular food is fish ...and fish dishes.....

I think you are wrong to say every tom dick and harry have a pig....

unless you have that proof ...and not an excuse....they have

I doubt very much the mccs came into contact with a freshly slaughtered pig ....in a holiday complex.....

At least one pig farmer was questioned by Scotland Yard.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2784.msg206337#msg206337
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Eleanor on October 12, 2018, 05:50:01 PM
Is that a new rule? If I've provided a cite previously I can tell people to go and find it themselves? I can't find it in the Forum Rules.

I said, "Every time someone new joins."

There has to be some sort of limit to the number of times someone can be asked for the same Cite.
Let's have a bit of common sense here, please.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Brietta on October 12, 2018, 05:55:29 PM
Can  you show me where it says that ashes contain cadaverine. I don't believe that they do. Why would Tamsin Silence's grandmother keep her dead husbands pyjamas?

I believe it is on record that Eddie alerted to scattered cremation ashes.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Brietta on October 12, 2018, 05:58:18 PM
I see the desperation to try and prove that Eddie alerted to a dead porker is still strong on here.

I believe that Eddie alerted to cadaver and nothing else. I believe that Martin Grime thought the same too.

Please provide a cite for Martin Grime saying "Eddie alerted to cadaver and nothing else".  Thank you
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: xtina on October 12, 2018, 06:24:03 PM
At least one pig farmer was questioned by Scotland Yard.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2784.msg206337#msg206337


yes farmer............not your average back garden in Portugal .

.with the house holderr...keeping and.  killing a pig....
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: G-Unit on October 12, 2018, 06:46:33 PM
I believe it is on record that Eddie alerted to scattered cremation ashes.

Really?
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 12, 2018, 06:54:49 PM
Ask Rob.  He is the one with slaughter house experience IIRC.  Remember he trained as a vet.
Yes that is right.  I was going to answer that about the species.  Each species has its own odour when you open it up during surgery.  I reckon I could tell what species I was working on even if you blindfolded me.  Whether the cadaver dog is picking up a combination smell of death plus plus smell of human blood.   
I imagine it would be similar to those who have a career in wine tasting, beer brewing, coffee blending, cheese making ... etc. they would devote parts of their memory to subtle changes before making decisions.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 12, 2018, 06:58:43 PM
I see the desperation to try and prove that Eddie alerted to a dead porker is still strong on here.

I believe that Eddie alerted to cadaver and nothing else. I believe that Martin Grime thought the same too.
You have got to put the word human cadaver in there too.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 12, 2018, 07:03:43 PM
I live in Rural Brittany.  But we do have a large number of houses rented out to holiday makers.

I don't understand why this should be different.

The Pig intestines are removed in the garden and then cleaned out and used for making sausages on the kitchen table.  And very good they are too.

The point is that cadaverine from the Pig's intestines could easily be transferred to elsewhere.
I think we are getting confused with the smell of meat compared to the smell of a dead animal.  Grime said his dogs were trained not to react to meat smells.  Carcass compared to cadaver.  OK the skill in butchery is not to have your carcasses smelling like cadaver.  We humans still have some sense of smell.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Eleanor on October 12, 2018, 07:06:17 PM
I think we are getting confused with the smell of meat compared to the smell of a dead animal.  Grime said his dogs were trained not to react to meat smells.  Carcass compared to cadaver.  OK the skill in butchery is not to have your carcasses smelling like cadaver.  We humans still have some sense of smell.

I'm talking about handling Intestines, Rob.  That's were cadaver scent develops.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 12, 2018, 07:14:13 PM
I'm talking about handling Intestines, Rob.  That's were cadaver scent develops.
You might think so be the intestine would be largely affected by what the animal last ate. 
Cadaver dogs reacted to decomposed body parts.  So I'm tending to think the training must emphasise odours that are in body parts eg limbs as well as torso.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Snowgirl on October 12, 2018, 07:59:05 PM
I am sorry if I have upset you and Snowgirl, and yes you are new, but the facts are that this subject has been done to death and it would take Davel over a week to go though it all.

That is patently too long
You havn't upset me at all Sadie .
I simply wanted Davel to tell me why he thought Redwood would say OG were now having to think Madeleine might not have left the apt. alive . Imo it was because they were considering the dogs were correct which davel  is vehemently denying .
Forget I asked him ?
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 12, 2018, 08:07:18 PM
You havn't upset me at all Sadie .
I simply wanted Davel to tell me why he thought Redwood would say OG were now having to think Madeleine might not have left the apt. alive . Imo it was because they were considering the dogs were correct which davel  is vehemently denying .
Forget I asked him ?

you should have looked back as sadie suggested....I answered earlier...post 116
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Snowgirl on October 12, 2018, 08:19:12 PM
you should have looked back as sadie suggested....I answered earlier...post 116
I read that ..so now you're admitting death was always a possibility ?
But the dogs were wrong to pick up on that possibility   .....  you're saying ?
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: xtina on October 12, 2018, 08:20:37 PM
I live in Rural Brittany.  But we do have a large number of houses rented out to holiday makers.

I don't understand why this should be different.

The Pig intestines are removed in the garden and then cleaned out and used for making sausages on the kitchen table.  And very good they are too.

The point is that cadaverine from the Pig's intestines could easily be transferred to elsewhere.


I imagine it different ....as I have been quite a few resorts years ago

Albufeira is one of them there is a fish market....fish from boats on the beach....

Fish restaurants .taverners all have fish dishes   oh and Piri Piri chicken

the pork chops seem to be in the tourist caterers

There were many shacks between Alberfeira....and villamora...really poor people...

along the beach and land ....i have never seen one pig...


one i made earlier but forgot to send
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 12, 2018, 08:31:23 PM
Please provide a cite for Martin Grime saying "Eddie alerted to cadaver and nothing else".  Thank you

A cite is not required Brietta. I said "I believe" and I do.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 12, 2018, 08:33:03 PM
You have got to put the word human cadaver in there too.

I believe that Eddie alerted to human cadaver odour and I believe that Martin Grime did to.   

Will that do Rob? Thanks for pointing out that I missed an important appropriate word.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 12, 2018, 08:51:30 PM
I believe that Eddie alerted to human cadaver odour and I believe that Martin Grime did to.   

Will that do Rob? Thanks for pointing out that I missed an important appropriate word.
No problem.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 12, 2018, 09:08:37 PM

I imagine it different ....as I have been quite a few resorts years ago

Albufeira is one of them there is a fish market....fish from boats on the beach....

Fish restaurants .taverners all have fish dishes   oh and Piri Piri chicken

the pork chops seem to be in the tourist caterers

There were many shacks between Alberfeira....and villamora...really poor people...

along the beach and land ....i have never seen one pig...


one i made earlier but forgot to send

Where the restaurants have booklets of photos of egg and chips etc rather than proper menus?

Say no more.....8(0(*
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 12, 2018, 09:28:57 PM
Please provide a cite for Martin Grime saying "Eddie alerted to cadaver and nothing else".  Thank you

My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however
suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a
number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence
reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with
corroborating evidence. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 12, 2018, 09:36:50 PM
My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however
suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a
number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence
reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with
corroborating evidence. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

Cross contaminant is the only supporter get out IMO

He also dispels the semen myth also from your cite Pathfinder

'Taking into account the signals of CSI, could the dog alert to other biological fluids''
The dog that alerts to human blood is trained exclusively for this purpose, and includes its components, plasma, red cells, white cells and platelets. Given the nature of the training, the dog will not alert to urine, saliva, semen sweat, nasal secretion, vaginal secretion or human skin unless these are mixed with blood.


Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 12, 2018, 09:46:12 PM
Cross contaminant is the only supporter get out IMO

He also dispels the semen myth also from your cite Pathfinder

'Taking into account the signals of CSI, could the dog alert to other biological fluids''
The dog that alerts to human blood is trained exclusively for this purpose, and includes its components, plasma, red cells, white cells and platelets. Given the nature of the training, the dog will not alert to urine, saliva, semen sweat, nasal secretion, vaginal secretion or human skin unless these are mixed with blood.


Supporters don't need a get out...there is no confirmation to cadaver...

In the rogs Grime was asked twice if cadaver contaminsnt was confirmed..each time he dodged the question...
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 12, 2018, 10:05:42 PM
Supporters don't need a get out...there is no confirmation to cadaver...

In the rogs Grime was asked twice if cadaver contaminsnt was confirmed..each time he dodged the question...

Personally I don't consider this a "dodged question"

Could the alert have been given because the clothes had been in contact with other items of clothing, surfaces or objects that could previously have touched a cadaver, thereby allowing the odour to be transferred''
There is always a possibility of contamination of odours by transferral. EVRD does not make a distinction; he responds with a certain behaviour for which he was trained when he recognizes an odour. He does not identify the reasons for the presence of the odour nor does he identify suspects. Forensic confirmation and specialized investigation methods will determine the reasons and the suspicions. In order to undoubtedly affirm there must be a confirmation of the alert signals made by the dog.


He is saying that Eddie alerted to the odour "he recognizes"  ie cadaver scent.   He does however mention that there is "always a possibility of contamination of odours by transferral".
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: sadie on October 12, 2018, 10:07:03 PM
Are you suggesting this cadaverine is free floating ? From dead Grandpa’s pjs  for instance  to settle in places Eddie alerted to ?
If Grandpas Pjays were on the bedside table next to the wall, they would from time to time, maybe always, be touching the wall.  Same with Grandpas ashes


How do you think that cadavarine got up the wall so high?  Surely Madeleines dead body (the sceptics idea about her dead body) was not hung from the wall?  On public display.

Do you think that she was nailed to the wall, or something ?  What a dreadful and silly thought.


Please be real.   Sensible ideas about the cadaravine up the wall would be taken on board


If you come up with a sound idea, I will listen, but I cant see anything that makes sense regarding Madeleine .
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 12, 2018, 10:12:12 PM
Personally I don't consider this a "dodged question"

Could the alert have been given because the clothes had been in contact with other items of clothing, surfaces or objects that could previously have touched a cadaver, thereby allowing the odour to be transferred''
There is always a possibility of contamination of odours by transferral. EVRD does not make a distinction; he responds with a certain behaviour for which he was trained when he recognizes an odour. He does not identify the reasons for the presence of the odour nor does he identify suspects. Forensic confirmation and specialized investigation methods will determine the reasons and the suspicions. In order to undoubtedly affirm there must be a confirmation of the alert signals made by the dog.


He is saying that Eddie alerted to the odour "he recognizes"  ie cadaver scent.   He does however mention that there is "always a possibility of contamination of odours by transferral".
That isn't what I was referring to...more...was the alert to cuddle at a confirmation of cadaver odour...

Grime had not confirmed any alerts...he hasn't even said in his opinion the alerts were to cadaver...your beliefs are based on a false premise
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 12, 2018, 10:14:34 PM
If Grandpas Pjays were on the bedside table next to the wall, they would from time to time, maybe always, be touching the wall.  Same with Grandpas ashes


How do you think that cadavarine got up the wall so high?  Surely Madeleines dead body (the sceptics idea about her dead body) was not hung from the wall?  On public display.

Do you think that she was nailed to the wall, or something ?  What a dreadful and silly thought.


Please be real.   Sensible ideas about the cadaravine up the wall would be taken on board


If you come up with a sound idea, I will listen, but I cant see anything that makes sense regarding Madeleine .

Do you have a cite to show that ashes give off cadaver odour and also one which shows that pyjamas were left on the bedside cabinet following the grandfather's death.

Cadaver odour scent will move around a room and pool, Martin Grime has already explained that the part of a room where Eddie alerted may not be the exact location of where a cadaver may have been placed.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 12, 2018, 10:18:05 PM
Do you have a cite to show that ashes give off cadaver odour and also one which shows that pyjamas were left on the bedside cabinet following the grandfather's death.

Cadaver odour scent will move around a room and pool, Martin Grime has already explained that the part of a room where Eddie alerted may not be the exact location of where a cadaver may have been placed.
Grime said in a closed room the scent will pool...the apartment was not closed....I think he's wrong on that...I'm not a dog handler but I understand Brownian motion...I don't think grime does
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 12, 2018, 10:20:33 PM
Grime said in a closed room the scent will pool...the apartment was not closed....I think he's wrong on that...I'm not a dog handler but I understand Brownian motion...I don't think grime does

How long does the apartment have to be empty for Brownian motion to occur davel. When was the last occupant removed prior to Martin Grime's search of the premies.  Do you have these answers please?
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 12, 2018, 10:23:53 PM
How long does the apartment have to be empty for Brownian motion to occur davel. When was the last occupant removed prior to Martin Grime's search of the premies.  Do you have these answers please?
Brownian motion occurs in a closed room..the apartment had not been closed....do movement even greater...and as for the residual scent outside...in wind and rain....it would not have lasted weeks never mind months
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 12, 2018, 10:27:06 PM
Brownian motion occurs in a closed room..the apartment had not been closed....do movement even greater...and as for the residual scent outside...in wind and rain....it would not have lasted weeks never mind months

I thought you understood Brownian Motion. If so surely you will know how long the apartment doors would have to remain closed for it to operate, a month, a week, a year? Which is it Davel?   We weren't talking about external alerts so please concentrate on the ones in the bedroom please.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 12, 2018, 10:28:08 PM
Personally I don't consider this a "dodged question"

Could the alert have been given because the clothes had been in contact with other items of clothing, surfaces or objects that could previously have touched a cadaver, thereby allowing the odour to be transferred''
There is always a possibility of contamination of odours by transferral. EVRD does not make a distinction; he responds with a certain behaviour for which he was trained when he recognizes an odour. He does not identify the reasons for the presence of the odour nor does he identify suspects. Forensic confirmation and specialized investigation methods will determine the reasons and the suspicions. In order to undoubtedly affirm there must be a confirmation of the alert signals made by the dog.


He is saying that Eddie alerted to the odour "he recognizes"  ie cadaver scent.   He does however mention that there is "always a possibility of contamination of odours by transferral".

Eddie reacts to blood from a live person
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 12, 2018, 10:34:21 PM
Eddie reacts to blood from a live person

So does Keela and she didn't alert. She is very reliable according to Martin Grime. Could you explain that then Davel?

"In training she has accurately located minute samples of blood on property up to

thirty-six years old"
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 12, 2018, 10:35:20 PM
So does Keela and she didn't alert. She is very reliable according to Martin Grime. Could you explain that then Davel?

"In training she has accurately located minute samples of blood on property up to

thirty-six years old"

How many spots of blood has she not alerted to, any idea?
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 12, 2018, 10:36:43 PM
So does Keela and she didn't alert. She is very reliable according to Martin Grime. Could you explain that then Davel?

"In training she has accurately located minute samples of blood on property up to

thirty-six years old"


Yes... easily explained...keela reacts to the presence of blood..not residual scent...and it's all according to grime...no independent scientific testing
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 12, 2018, 10:47:28 PM
How many spots of blood has she not alerted to, any idea?

Keela

Keela's considerable talent in uncovering minute pieces of evidence that can later be confirmed by forensic tests has put her in the forefront of detective work across Britain. She was drafted in to help after the stabbing of the young mother, Abigail Witchalls, in Surrey, and has been involved in high- profile cases across 17 forces, from Devon and Cornwall to Strathclyde.
 
She has already helped to apprehend a murderer after sniffing out blood on a knife.
 
PC John Ellis, her handler, said that police sent for Keela when the scenes of crime squad failed to find what they were looking for. "She can detect minute quantities of blood that cannot be seen with the human eye," he said. "She is used at scenes where someone has tried to clean it up. If blood has seeped into the tiles behind a bath where a body has been, she can find it."
 
The spaniel can sniff out blood in clothes after they have been washed repeatedly in biological washing powder, and can detect microscopic amounts on weapons that have been scrubbed and washed.

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id157.htm

I cannot answer what she may have missed but I very much doubt she missed anything Vertigo Swirl.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 12, 2018, 10:48:50 PM
Yes... easily explained...keela reacts to the presence of blood..not residual scent...and it's all according to grime...no independent scientific testing

But Keela didn't alert in all the places Eddie did Davel.  That is what I asked and you deflected.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Snowgirl on October 12, 2018, 11:01:15 PM
If Grandpas Pjays were on the bedside table next to the wall, they would from time to time, maybe always, be touching the wall.  Same with Grandpas ashes


How do you think that cadavarine got up the wall so high?  Surely Madeleines dead body (the sceptics idea about her dead body) was not hung from the wall?  On public display.

Do you think that she was nailed to the wall, or something ?  What a dreadful and silly thought.


Please be real.   Sensible ideas about the cadaravine up the wall would be taken on board


If you come up with a sound idea, I will listen, but I cant see anything that makes sense regarding Madeleine .
  Tiny  traces of blood invisible to the naked eye  were found at a low height on the wall ,not cadaverine .
As for Grandpa's  ashes touching the wall ,how desperate to suggest the very idea .
Please cite where this  man ,his belongings and ashes has been suggested and explored  as a cause ?
I live to learn something new every day
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 12, 2018, 11:02:36 PM
Eddie had never made a false positive alert.

FALSE ALERTS

'False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has not so indicated
operationally or in training. In six years of operational deployment in over 200
criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and
specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption. Similarly the
dog has never alerted to 'road kill', that is any other dead animal.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

I see it mentions in training as well as on deployment. That makes his very accurate IMO.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 12, 2018, 11:33:32 PM
  Tiny  traces of blood invisible to the naked eye  were found at a low height on the wall ,not cadaverine .
As for Grandpa's  ashes touching the wall ,how desperate to suggest the very idea .
Please cite where this  man ,his belongings and ashes has been suggested and explored  as a cause ?
I live to learn something new every day
You'll find it on forum somewhere, maybe 3 years ago.

From memory, the Mr McCann in question died in a hospital in the UK.

I cannot remember if he was cremated, as opposed to being buried.

I have never seen anything to evidence that Eddie alerted to crematoria ashes.

Nor have I seen any evidence that his ashes or pyjamas were brought back to 5A by his wife.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Snowgirl on October 13, 2018, 12:13:05 AM
 
You'll find it on forum somewhere, maybe 3 years ago.

From memory, the Mr McCann in question died in a hospital in the UK.

I cannot remember if he was cremated, as opposed to being buried.

I have never seen anything to evidence that Eddie alerted to crematoria ashes.

Nor have I seen any evidence that his ashes or pyjamas were brought back to 5A by his wife.
This man tho Sadie said  is the grandpa of Tasmin Silences  , whoever she is /was not  a McCann .

Cadavar odour hangs around, no need for blood showing cos the odour doesn't (easily) wash out.  Could be on fingers too.

But almost certainly if that was cadavar odour in the bedroom it was from the ashes of Tasmin Silences dead grandpa .. or from his pjays.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: sadie on October 13, 2018, 12:28:12 AM
Average annual wage in Portugal in 2010 was 17,000€.

https://www.pordata.pt/en/Portugal/National+minimum+wage-74

The annual minimum  National wage (median) for Portuguese workers in 2010 was 6,650 EUROS.





https://www.macrotrends.net/2553/euro-british-pound-exchange-rate-historical-chart

The median exchange rate,of the Euro to £ sterling over 2010 was 0.86 Euro = £1 sterling




Therefore, exchanging Euros for £.sterling the median minimum National Portuguese wage, ten years ago, was :


6,650 x 0.86 = £ 5719


£5719 aint much, is it?



Seems my friend at £7000+ wasn't doing so badly after all.

 
There must have been some massive wages  amongst an elite few if your Portuguese National average salary of 17,000 €uros is correct, slarti

slarti,  can you please show us where you got that figure from?   TY




As I said the Portuguese were a poor people generally and it is a wonder that many of them were able to feed themselves and their families.   A pig or two could have been a way of doing that ... and possibly of raising extra revenue by selling joints off.

Their slaughter hygeine ?    Now that is a question that we dont know the answer to, but it was unlikely to have been high.


 
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: sadie on October 13, 2018, 12:58:12 AM
You havn't upset me at all Sadie .
I simply wanted Davel to tell me why he thought Redwood would say OG were now having to think Madeleine might not have left the apt. alive . Imo it was because they were considering the dogs were correct which davel  is vehemently denying .
Forget I asked him ?

Showgirl

I am glad that you were not upset.

All the supporters on here have studied long and deeply the cadavar odours, poring over documents etc.  and Davel has hit the nail on the head, the alerts mean nothing, zilch.  We all believe that from the conclusions reached. 

Davel is so fast and accurate, that we tend to leave it to him, but we all (I believe) support him.  He knows his stuff.


Personally I think the actual Eddie and Keela alerts seemed to be brilliant, but we dont truly know if they are correct.




I am sorry but it is complex, and it would take me far too long to explain it to you.  Also it takes some time for the implications, (what the alerts meant and what they didn't) to sink in.   
Amaral either didn't undrstand them, or he did and chose to use this complex subject to accuse The Mccanns  with.

AIMHO
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 13, 2018, 12:59:26 AM
https://www.pordata.pt/en/Portugal/National+minimum+wage-74

The annual minimum  National wage (median) for Portuguese workers in 2010 was 6,650 EUROS.





https://www.macrotrends.net/2553/euro-british-pound-exchange-rate-historical-chart

The median exchange rate,of the Euro to £ sterling over 2010 was 0.86 Euro = £1 sterling




Therefore, exchanging Euros for £.sterling the median minimum National Portuguese wage, ten years ago, was :


6,650 x 0.86 = £ 5719


£5719 aint much, is it?



Seems my friend at £7000+ wasn't doing so badly after all.

 
There must have been some massive wages  amongst an elite few if your Portuguese National average salary of 17,000 €uros is correct, slarti

slarti,  can you please show us where you got that figure from?   TY




As I said the Portuguese were a poor people generally and it is a wonder that many of them were able to feed themselves and their families.   A pig or two could have been a way of doing that ... and possibly of raising extra revenue by selling joints off.

Their slaughter hygeine ?    Now that is a question that we dont know the answer to, but it was unlikely to have been high.

Sadie  you keep saying people kept pigs and were slaughtering them and cutting them on their kitchen table. Do you have any figures giving how many people in Portugal kept pigs and also what has this got to do with the dogs alerts. TY
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: sadie on October 13, 2018, 01:26:08 AM
Sadie  you keep saying people kept pigs and were slaughtering them and cutting them on their kitchen table. Do you have any figures giving how many people in Portugal kept pigs and also what has this got to do with the dogs alerts. TY
1)  We know that people kept pigs.  No need for figures.

To have meat to eat, they would need to with such low wages.  In 2010, the median minimum wage was only £5,719


2)  The dogs, Eddie at least, was exclusively trained on baby piglet carcases.   This is where he learned what he had to alert to, which was cadaravine.  The odour of dead baby piglets was the thing to alert to and then get his reward.

According to documents provided on this forum, once a dog is taught and learns something, he NEVER unlearns it.   I am sorry but I am not wasting my time searching for that ... but most people on here have seen it.


The long and short of this is that he will remember his training and alert to baby pork.   On this forum too, it was stated in documents/ reports that cadavar dogs are used to trace dead burned bodies in the bush fires of the USA.


Pigs and humans aparantly smell very alike.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 13, 2018, 01:27:42 AM
1)  We know that people kept pigs.  No need for figures.

To have meat to eat, they would need to with such low wages.  In 2010, the median minimum wage was only £5,719


2)  The dogs, Eddie at least, was exclusively trained on baby piglet carcases.   This is where he learned what he had to alert to, which was cadaravine.  The odour of dead baby piglets was the thing to alert to and then get his reward.

According to documents provided on this forum, once a dog is taught and learns something, he NEVER unlearns it.   I am sorry but I am not wasting my time searching for that ... but most people on here have seen it.


The long and short of this is that he will remember his training and alert to baby pork.   On this forum too, it was stated in documents/ reports that cadavar dogs are used to trace dead burned bodies in the bush fires of the USA.


Pigs and humans aparantly smell very alike.

Do you have a cite that Eddie did still alert to pigs as Martin Grime is quite clear that he didn't in 2007.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: sadie on October 13, 2018, 01:34:04 AM
Do you have a cite that Eddie did still alert to pigs as Martin Grime is quite clear that he didn't in 2007.
My answer to that is in the post that you just replied to.

To remind you, I am not wading thru stuff that has been posted on this forum over the past three years or so.  Sorry but you need to get yourself up to date.   
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 13, 2018, 01:37:31 AM
My answer to that is in the post that you just replied to.

No sadie you said this

)  The dogs, Eddie at least, was exclusively trained on baby piglet carcases.   This is where he learned what he had to alert to, which was cadaravine.  The odour of dead baby piglets was the thing to alert to and then get his reward.


I asked did he STILL alert to dead pig? Well does he sadie?   Martin Grime says not
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: misty on October 13, 2018, 01:41:27 AM
No sadie you said this

)  The dogs, Eddie at least, was exclusively trained on baby piglet carcases.   This is where he learned what he had to alert to, which was cadaravine.  The odour of dead baby piglets was the thing to alert to and then get his reward.


I asked did he STILL alert to dead pig? Well does he sadie?   Martin Grime says not

How could Eddie be tested by an ACPO instructor if he didn't still alert to decomposing pig?
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Brietta on October 13, 2018, 02:37:08 AM
Do you have a cite to show that ashes give off cadaver odour and also one which shows that pyjamas were left on the bedside cabinet following the grandfather's death.

Cadaver odour scent will move around a room and pool, Martin Grime has already explained that the part of a room where Eddie alerted may not be the exact location of where a cadaver may have been placed.
Among the ashes, search dogs find cremated remains of Santa Rosa loved ones
(http://www.pressdemocrat.com/csp/mediapool/sites/dt.common.streams.StreamServer.cls?STREAMOID=IZOtLuyelDJWBFqlmehCYs$daE2N3K4ZzOUsqbU5sYtHdnV0aN6F0My7eqNeOnpCWCsjLu883Ygn4B49Lvm9bPe2QeMKQdVeZmXF$9l$4uCZ8QDXhaHEp3rvzXRJFdy0KqPHLoMevcTLo3h8xh70Y6N_U_CryOsw6FTOdKL_jpQ-&CONTENTTYPE=image/jpeg)
Annie a Belgian Malinois working with the institute for Canine Forensics looks for the cremains of Lenore Hansen’s daughter Erin
(http://www.pressdemocrat.com/csp/mediapool/sites/dt.common.streams.StreamServer.cls?STREAMOID=LDymeod7GQspoN$ed0hRtc$daE2N3K4ZzOUsqbU5sYtfkG4DSJLSaEz9J5J8C3XiWCsjLu883Ygn4B49Lvm9bPe2QeMKQdVeZmXF$9l$4uCZ8QDXhaHEp3rvzXRJFdy0KqPHLoMevcTLo3h8xh70Y6N_U_CryOsw6FTOdKL_jpQ-&CONTENTTYPE=image/jpeg)
Lenore Hansen is comforted with a hug from a volunteer with the institute of Canine Forensics as archaeologists uncover her daughter’s cremains

         
CHRIS SMITH THE PRESS DEMOCRAT | October 31, 201

Somewhere within the layer of crackly, heat-bleached, almost granular ruins of Lenore Hansen’s country home north of Santa Rosa was all she had left of her younger daughter.

Erin Hansen had attended Piner High and was 30 years old and the mother of two sons when she died of cancer 10 years ago. Her mother kept her ashes in a box in her bedroom closet.

There wasn’t time to grab it when the firestorm bore down on Lenore Hansen’s 60-year-old, creekside house off Riebli Road the morning of Oct. 9.
___________________________________
Once allowed to return and view the destruction of her house, it sank in that Erin’s ashes were in there, mixed with those of the walls and the furniture and everything else.

“Just the thought of her ashes winding up in a toxic-waste dump was more than I could handle,” she said.

She read in The Press Democrat about Lynne Engelbert, whose dog, Piper, is trained to find human remains, even ancient ones. Two weeks ago, Engelbert and Piper voluntarily located in the debris of Curt Nichol’s home the cremated remains of the landscape architect’s parents.

Lenore Hansen contacted Engelbert, who lives in San Jose and is active in the Institute for Canine Forensics, and asked if she would come look for her daughter’s ashes.

“The wind. The wind,” she said with a shake of her head Sunday alongside her home’s remains.
___________________________________
Lynne Engelbert came to Sonoma County on Sunday with friend and fellow dog handler Kris Black of Los Gatos. Through the course of a long and emotional day, Engelbert, Black and their dogs found cremation ashes at the sites of four burned homes in and near Santa Rosa.


Prior to going to Lenore Hansen’s property, the women and their dogs were in Larkfield, helping out Brett Gripe. The retired police officer and his wife, Cheryl, deeply regretted having never scattered the ashes of his father, John Warren Gripe, a Marine Corps veteran of World War II who died in Santa Rosa in 2009 at the age of 85.

  ... his father’s ashes, contained in a tin box he kept in a closet beneath his home’s staircase, were “going to be the biggest needle in the haystack.”

Both Engelbert’s border collie and Black’s Belgian Malinois, Annie, clearly relished the challenge when they independently searched the rubble of the Gripe house. Both lay down around the same spot in the ruins, alerting their handlers they smelled human remains.

Aided by Santa Rosa archaeologist Alex DeGeorgey, Engelbert and Black carefully scooped up the ashes and placed them in plastic bags. The Gripes profusely thanked the trio, who accept no money for their services, and heaped affection on Piper and Annie. A few miles east of the remains of the Gripe home, Lenore Hansen was standing alongside the ashes of the house she’d cherished for 30 years when the two human-remains detection teams and the archaeologist arrived.

For her visitors’ benefit, she pointed to the part of her destroyed house where she kept, in a closet, the wooden box containing Erin’s ashes.

Engelbert went to her SUV and opened the door to a dog kennel. Lithe, eager Piper jumped out. She scooted to the remains of Hansen’s house, and sniffed.

Soon, the dog paused, then lay down. Engelbert praised her, and returned her to the car. Black then went to her SUV and released Annie from her crate. The athletic dog stepped briskly through the remains of Hansen’s house, laying close to where Piper had.

Hansen watched on her knees from just beyond the bare foundation as Engelbert and DeGeorgey knelt and used garden trowels to examine and remove debris.

To the untrained eye, ash is ash. But years of experience allow Engelbert to distinguish from household ash the texture and tan hue of cremated bone.

After a few minutes of careful searching in the area of what had been Hansen’s closet, Engelbert announced a discovery. With DeGeorgey’s help, she scooped Erin’s ashes into a bag.

At the sight, Lenore Hansen’s chin collapsed to her chest and she sobbed. Black and the grieving, relieved mother shared a long and tight embrace.

Hansen said later the recovery of her daughter’s ashes “brought some fresh grief as well.”

Engelbert was happy to have brought Hansen some peace.

https://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/7579010-181/among-the-ashes-search-dogs?artslide=0&sba=AAS


There is no doubt that dogs are capable of locating the remains from cremations just as they are capable of finding the incinerated remains of victims of disasters and fires.

I found it of interest that as reported in the above use of dogs ... one was used to corroborate the alert of the other ... which if I am not mistaken ... is standard practice.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: slartibartfast on October 13, 2018, 07:37:45 AM
https://www.pordata.pt/en/Portugal/National+minimum+wage-74

The annual minimum  National wage (median) for Portuguese workers in 2010 was 6,650 EUROS.





https://www.macrotrends.net/2553/euro-british-pound-exchange-rate-historical-chart

The median exchange rate,of the Euro to £ sterling over 2010 was 0.86 Euro = £1 sterling




Therefore, exchanging Euros for £.sterling the median minimum National Portuguese wage, ten years ago, was :


6,650 x 0.86 = £ 5719


£5719 aint much, is it?



Seems my friend at £7000+ wasn't doing so badly after all.

 
There must have been some massive wages  amongst an elite few if your Portuguese National average salary of 17,000 €uros is correct, slarti

slarti,  can you please show us where you got that figure from?   TY




As I said the Portuguese were a poor people generally and it is a wonder that many of them were able to feed themselves and their families.   A pig or two could have been a way of doing that ... and possibly of raising extra revenue by selling joints off.

Their slaughter hygeine ?    Now that is a question that we dont know the answer to, but it was unlikely to have been high.

A simple google search. You implied your friend was a Computer Expert, not exactly minimum wage territory.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 13, 2018, 08:35:26 AM
How could Eddie be tested by an ACPO instructor if he didn't still alert to decomposing pig?

Did the ACPO instructor test Eddie on decomposing pig? I doubt that as there would be no sense in doing that if his purpose was to alert to human cadaver not porcine.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 13, 2018, 08:42:49 AM
Among the ashes, search dogs find cremated remains of Santa Rosa loved ones
(http://www.pressdemocrat.com/csp/mediapool/sites/dt.common.streams.StreamServer.cls?STREAMOID=IZOtLuyelDJWBFqlmehCYs$daE2N3K4ZzOUsqbU5sYtHdnV0aN6F0My7eqNeOnpCWCsjLu883Ygn4B49Lvm9bPe2QeMKQdVeZmXF$9l$4uCZ8QDXhaHEp3rvzXRJFdy0KqPHLoMevcTLo3h8xh70Y6N_U_CryOsw6FTOdKL_jpQ-&CONTENTTYPE=image/jpeg)
Annie a Belgian Malinois working with the institute for Canine Forensics looks for the cremains of Lenore Hansen’s daughter Erin
(http://www.pressdemocrat.com/csp/mediapool/sites/dt.common.streams.StreamServer.cls?STREAMOID=LDymeod7GQspoN$ed0hRtc$daE2N3K4ZzOUsqbU5sYtfkG4DSJLSaEz9J5J8C3XiWCsjLu883Ygn4B49Lvm9bPe2QeMKQdVeZmXF$9l$4uCZ8QDXhaHEp3rvzXRJFdy0KqPHLoMevcTLo3h8xh70Y6N_U_CryOsw6FTOdKL_jpQ-&CONTENTTYPE=image/jpeg)
Lenore Hansen is comforted with a hug from a volunteer with the institute of Canine Forensics as archaeologists uncover her daughter’s cremains

         
CHRIS SMITH THE PRESS DEMOCRAT | October 31, 201

Somewhere within the layer of crackly, heat-bleached, almost granular ruins of Lenore Hansen’s country home north of Santa Rosa was all she had left of her younger daughter.

Erin Hansen had attended Piner High and was 30 years old and the mother of two sons when she died of cancer 10 years ago. Her mother kept her ashes in a box in her bedroom closet.

There wasn’t time to grab it when the firestorm bore down on Lenore Hansen’s 60-year-old, creekside house off Riebli Road the morning of Oct. 9.
___________________________________
Once allowed to return and view the destruction of her house, it sank in that Erin’s ashes were in there, mixed with those of the walls and the furniture and everything else.

“Just the thought of her ashes winding up in a toxic-waste dump was more than I could handle,” she said.

She read in The Press Democrat about Lynne Engelbert, whose dog, Piper, is trained to find human remains, even ancient ones. Two weeks ago, Engelbert and Piper voluntarily located in the debris of Curt Nichol’s home the cremated remains of the landscape architect’s parents.

Lenore Hansen contacted Engelbert, who lives in San Jose and is active in the Institute for Canine Forensics, and asked if she would come look for her daughter’s ashes.

“The wind. The wind,” she said with a shake of her head Sunday alongside her home’s remains.
___________________________________
Lynne Engelbert came to Sonoma County on Sunday with friend and fellow dog handler Kris Black of Los Gatos. Through the course of a long and emotional day, Engelbert, Black and their dogs found cremation ashes at the sites of four burned homes in and near Santa Rosa.


Prior to going to Lenore Hansen’s property, the women and their dogs were in Larkfield, helping out Brett Gripe. The retired police officer and his wife, Cheryl, deeply regretted having never scattered the ashes of his father, John Warren Gripe, a Marine Corps veteran of World War II who died in Santa Rosa in 2009 at the age of 85.

  ... his father’s ashes, contained in a tin box he kept in a closet beneath his home’s staircase, were “going to be the biggest needle in the haystack.”

Both Engelbert’s border collie and Black’s Belgian Malinois, Annie, clearly relished the challenge when they independently searched the rubble of the Gripe house. Both lay down around the same spot in the ruins, alerting their handlers they smelled human remains.

Aided by Santa Rosa archaeologist Alex DeGeorgey, Engelbert and Black carefully scooped up the ashes and placed them in plastic bags. The Gripes profusely thanked the trio, who accept no money for their services, and heaped affection on Piper and Annie. A few miles east of the remains of the Gripe home, Lenore Hansen was standing alongside the ashes of the house she’d cherished for 30 years when the two human-remains detection teams and the archaeologist arrived.

For her visitors’ benefit, she pointed to the part of her destroyed house where she kept, in a closet, the wooden box containing Erin’s ashes.

Engelbert went to her SUV and opened the door to a dog kennel. Lithe, eager Piper jumped out. She scooted to the remains of Hansen’s house, and sniffed.

Soon, the dog paused, then lay down. Engelbert praised her, and returned her to the car. Black then went to her SUV and released Annie from her crate. The athletic dog stepped briskly through the remains of Hansen’s house, laying close to where Piper had.

Hansen watched on her knees from just beyond the bare foundation as Engelbert and DeGeorgey knelt and used garden trowels to examine and remove debris.

To the untrained eye, ash is ash. But years of experience allow Engelbert to distinguish from household ash the texture and tan hue of cremated bone.

After a few minutes of careful searching in the area of what had been Hansen’s closet, Engelbert announced a discovery. With DeGeorgey’s help, she scooped Erin’s ashes into a bag.

At the sight, Lenore Hansen’s chin collapsed to her chest and she sobbed. Black and the grieving, relieved mother shared a long and tight embrace.

Hansen said later the recovery of her daughter’s ashes “brought some fresh grief as well.”

Engelbert was happy to have brought Hansen some peace.

https://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/7579010-181/among-the-ashes-search-dogs?artslide=0&sba=AAS


There is no doubt that dogs are capable of locating the remains from cremations just as they are capable of finding the incinerated remains of victims of disasters and fires.

I found it of interest that as reported in the above use of dogs ... one was used to corroborate the alert of the other ... which if I am not mistaken ... is standard practice.

That is from a house fire there would be parts of bones and teeth. They burn at up to 1100 degrees farenheit. A cremation achieves a temperature of 1600 to 1800 degrees farenheit so would be totally different.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cremation
https://www.target-fire.co.uk/news/what-is-the-temperature-of-fire/
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Eleanor on October 13, 2018, 09:02:33 AM
Did the ACPO instructor test Eddie on decomposing pig? I doubt that as there would be no sense in doing that if his purpose was to alert to human cadaver not porcine.

Grime did a test with Cadaver Dogs and Pigs.  The Cadaver Dogs all alerted.

Sorry, don't know where to find it, but it's on here somewhere.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: G-Unit on October 13, 2018, 09:04:49 AM
That is from a house fire there would be parts of bones and teeth. They burn at up to 1100 degrees farenheit. A cremation achieves a temperature of 1600 to 1800 degrees farenheit so would be totally different.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cremation
https://www.target-fire.co.uk/news/what-is-the-temperature-of-fire/

The 'ashes' from a cremation are actually ground up bone. Unless these dog's findings were analysed and shown to be bone and nothing else no-one knows for sure what these dogs found.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: G-Unit on October 13, 2018, 09:06:32 AM
Grime did a test with Cadaver Dogs and Pigs.  The Cadaver Dogs all alerted.

Sorry, don't know where to find it, but it's on here somewhere.

That was US dogs, who had been trained on human remains, I think.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Eleanor on October 13, 2018, 09:19:03 AM
That was US dogs, who had been trained on human remains, I think.

Is there a difference with US Cadaver Dogs?

But thanks for confirming.  Fair as ever.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 13, 2018, 09:24:21 AM
Is there a difference with US Cadaver Dogs?

But thanks for confirming.  Fair as ever.
It was Martin Grime referring to a US (FBI?) training or testing programe.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Eleanor on October 13, 2018, 09:26:53 AM
It was Martin Grime referring to a US (FBI?) training or testing programe.

Thanks also.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 13, 2018, 09:27:01 AM
Is there a difference with US Cadaver Dogs?

But thanks for confirming.  Fair as ever.

I have found a link

Acting in my role of advisor to the U.S. Justice Department I have facilitated assessment of numerous cadaver search dog teams in the United States. These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources. When I introduced pig based products into training assessments 100%! of the animals alerted to the medium.


https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Eleanor on October 13, 2018, 09:29:30 AM
I have found a link

Acting in my role of advisor to the U.S. Justice Department I have facilitated assessment of numerous cadaver search dog teams in the United States. These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources. When I introduced pig based products into training assessments 100%! of the animals alerted to the medium.


https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

Thank You, Sunny.  That is an excellent Cite.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Brietta on October 13, 2018, 11:15:53 AM
That is from a house fire there would be parts of bones and teeth. They burn at up to 1100 degrees farenheit. A cremation achieves a temperature of 1600 to 1800 degrees farenheit so would be totally different.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cremation
https://www.target-fire.co.uk/news/what-is-the-temperature-of-fire/

Did you bother to read the link I supplied?

The remains the dogs were tasked with finding in both instances were the remains of loved ones who had died and had been cremated and whose ashes had become mixed with the ash from the conflagration which destroyed the homes where they were kept.

Quote
Somewhere within the layer of crackly, heat-bleached, almost granular ruins of Lenore Hansen’s country home north of Santa Rosa was all she had left of her younger daughter.

Erin Hansen had attended Piner High and was 30 years old and the mother of two sons when she died of cancer 10 years ago. Her mother kept her ashes in a box in her bedroom closet.

Quote
Prior to going to Lenore Hansen’s property, the women and their dogs were in Larkfield, helping out Brett Gripe. The retired police officer and his wife, Cheryl, deeply regretted having never scattered the ashes of his father, John Warren Gripe, a Marine Corps veteran of World War II who died in Santa Rosa in 2009 at the age of 85.

There are many things Brett Gripe hopes to find in the ruins of his house: among his collection of police and fire-department badges was the badge worn by Sebastopol’s first police chief, Ed Foster. His wife fled the house without her wedding ring.

But Gripe said he was certain his father’s ashes, contained in a tin box he kept in a closet beneath his home’s staircase, were “going to be the biggest needle in the haystack.”

https://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/7579010-181/among-the-ashes-search-dogs?artslide=0&sba=AAS




I think sometimes it is possible that when your mind is closed to other possibilities it is easy to ignore the obvious.

You asked for a cite regarding the capability of dogs to locate cremated human ashes and when given it go off at a tangent ignoring the truly fascinating reality of the capabilities of these animals.

Two animals alerted at exactly the same places ... not a coincidence ... not by chance ... but finding what they were looking for.

In my opinion Sadie is correct in her assessment that there are those of us who have an inquiring mind with an interest in following fresh paths and there are those of us with a closed mind as to what can be proved as far as the known science of the dogs is concerned because they know it all already.

In my opinion the evidence above indicates that dogs will alert to cremated human ashes ... 
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Brietta on October 13, 2018, 11:34:27 AM
The 'ashes' from a cremation are actually ground up bone. Unless these dog's findings were analysed and shown to be bone and nothing else no-one knows for sure what these dogs found.
(http://www.pressdemocrat.com/csp/mediapool/sites/dt.common.streams.StreamServer.cls?STREAMOID=4fpkb8ukoWodkjpjYTzW5s$daE2N3K4ZzOUsqbU5sYsvGwQ56HuG484ANnDlSv4JWCsjLu883Ygn4B49Lvm9bPe2QeMKQdVeZmXF$9l$4uCZ8QDXhaHEp3rvzXRJFdy0KqPHLoMevcTLo3h8xh70Y6N_U_CryOsw6FTOdKL_jpQ-&CONTENTTYPE=image/jpeg)

Clever doggies!  There was quite a lot of ash to choose from ... but in both instances they alerted independently at the same spot.  Wonder if it was to a scent they recognised?

(http://www.pressdemocrat.com/csp/mediapool/sites/dt.common.streams.StreamServer.cls?STREAMOID=2Vlih10BkAEM6n6NLBw9bc$daE2N3K4ZzOUsqbU5sYt55omzuYpH$zTFdCJ6Rl2fWCsjLu883Ygn4B49Lvm9bPe2QeMKQdVeZmXF$9l$4uCZ8QDXhaHEp3rvzXRJFdy0KqPHLoMevcTLo3h8xh70Y6N_U_CryOsw6FTOdKL_jpQ-&CONTENTTYPE=image/jpeg)
Brett Gripe holds the cremains of his father after their recovery from the site of his burned home.
https://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/7579010-181/among-the-ashes-search-dogs?artslide=5&sba=AAS
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 13, 2018, 12:20:25 PM
Did you bother to read the link I supplied?

The remains the dogs were tasked with finding in both instances were the remains of loved ones who had died and had been cremated and whose ashes had become mixed with the ash from the conflagration which destroyed the homes where they were kept.

Quote
Somewhere within the layer of crackly, heat-bleached, almost granular ruins of Lenore Hansen’s country home north of Santa Rosa was all she had left of her younger daughter.

Erin Hansen had attended Piner High and was 30 years old and the mother of two sons when she died of cancer 10 years ago. Her mother kept her ashes in a box in her bedroom closet.

Quote
Prior to going to Lenore Hansen’s property, the women and their dogs were in Larkfield, helping out Brett Gripe. The retired police officer and his wife, Cheryl, deeply regretted having never scattered the ashes of his father, John Warren Gripe, a Marine Corps veteran of World War II who died in Santa Rosa in 2009 at the age of 85.

There are many things Brett Gripe hopes to find in the ruins of his house: among his collection of police and fire-department badges was the badge worn by Sebastopol’s first police chief, Ed Foster. His wife fled the house without her wedding ring.

But Gripe said he was certain his father’s ashes, contained in a tin box he kept in a closet beneath his home’s staircase, were “going to be the biggest needle in the haystack.”

https://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/7579010-181/among-the-ashes-search-dogs?artslide=0&sba=AAS




I think sometimes it is possible that when your mind is closed to other possibilities it is easy to ignore the obvious.

You asked for a cite regarding the capability of dogs to locate cremated human ashes and when given it go off at a tangent ignoring the truly fascinating reality of the capabilities of these animals.

Two animals alerted at exactly the same places ... not a coincidence ... not by chance ... but finding what they were looking for.

In my opinion Sadie is correct in her assessment that there are those of us who have an inquiring mind with an interest in following fresh paths and there are those of us with a closed mind as to what can be proved as far as the known science of the dogs is concerned because they know it all already.

In my opinion the evidence above indicates that dogs will alert to cremated human ashes ... 


Same as Eddie and Keela both alerting behind the sofa. They work as a team.

"Whereas there may be no retrievable evidence for court purposes this may well assist intelligence gathering in Major Crime investigations." https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Brietta on October 13, 2018, 02:20:48 PM
Same as Eddie and Keela both alerting behind the sofa. They work as a team.

"Whereas there may be no retrievable evidence for court purposes this may well assist intelligence gathering in Major Crime investigations." https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

NOT the same.  Keela is trained to alert ONLY to blood and nothing but blood. 

Therefore, as recorded in the files, both dogs - Eddie and Keela - alerted to blood which forensics determined had nothing at all to do with any member of the McCann family.

The dogs used by the Institute of Canine Forensics ... Piper and Annie, both trained to find human remains, independent of each other "lay down around the same spot in the ruins, alerting their handlers they smelled human remains."
https://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/7579010-181/among-the-ashes-search-dogs?artslide=0&sba=AAS
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: slartibartfast on October 13, 2018, 02:25:28 PM
NOT the same.  Keela is trained to alert ONLY to blood and nothing but blood. 

Therefore, as recorded in the files, both dogs - Eddie and Keela - alerted to blood which forensics determined had nothing at all to do with any member of the McCann family.

The dogs used by the Institute of Canine Forensics ... Piper and Annie, both trained to find human remains, independent of each other "lay down around the same spot in the ruins, alerting their handlers they smelled human remains."
https://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/7579010-181/among-the-ashes-search-dogs?artslide=0&sba=AAS

To be totally accurate, because Keela alerted and alert by Eddie is discounted because he alerts to blood as well.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 13, 2018, 02:28:49 PM
To be totally accurate, because Keela alerted and alert by Eddie is discounted because he alerts to blood as well.

To be totally accurate if both dogs alert their could be blood or blood and cadaver odour
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Brietta on October 13, 2018, 02:32:25 PM
To be totally accurate, because Keela alerted and alert by Eddie is discounted because he alerts to blood as well.

Quite.  Just as there were no alerts to cadaver scent in the Renault hire car it having been proved forensically that Eddie's alert was as a result of cellular material which had been deposited by Madeleine's father.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: slartibartfast on October 13, 2018, 02:41:07 PM
Quite.  Just as there were no alerts to cadaver scent in the Renault hire car it having been proved forensically that Eddie's alert was as a result of cellular material which had been deposited by Madeleine's father.

I don’t think you are correct with that. The key was alerted to by both dogs if I remember correctly. The other alerts were not necessarily related to the keys.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 13, 2018, 02:48:27 PM
I don’t think you are correct with that. The key was alerted to by both dogs if I remember correctly. The other alerts were not necessarily related to the keys.

That's the whole point re the dogs...there is simply no way of knowing if an alert us genuine or not in many cases...making any judgement of reliability impossible
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 13, 2018, 03:35:05 PM
NOT the same.  Keela is trained to alert ONLY to blood and nothing but blood. 

Therefore, as recorded in the files, both dogs - Eddie and Keela - alerted to blood which forensics determined had nothing at all to do with any member of the McCann family.

The dogs used by the Institute of Canine Forensics ... Piper and Annie, both trained to find human remains, independent of each other "lay down around the same spot in the ruins, alerting their handlers they smelled human remains."
https://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/7579010-181/among-the-ashes-search-dogs?artslide=0&sba=AAS

Keela didn't alert at the wardrobe only Eddie so it's not blood at that location.  All you need to know is that they were looking for evidence of a body in 2007 and were still looking for it 7 years after when SY returned. The dog alerts are relevant to this case as is the original forensic material that was stored.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Brietta on October 13, 2018, 04:21:46 PM
I don’t think you are correct with that. The key was alerted to by both dogs if I remember correctly. The other alerts were not necessarily related to the keys.

What did Eddie alert to in the hire car?
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Brietta on October 13, 2018, 04:27:49 PM
Keela didn't alert at the wardrobe only Eddie so it's not blood at that location.  All you need to know is that they were looking for evidence of a body in 2007 and were still looking for it 7 years after when SY returned. The dog alerts are relevant to this case as is the original forensic material that was stored.

One can only judge an animal's performance based on it's track record.  In my opinion Eddie's reaction in both cases we know about in any detail ~ Portugal and Jersey ~ show that Eddie was not reliable at that stage in his career.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Eleanor on October 13, 2018, 04:31:05 PM
One can only judge an animal's performance based on it's track record.  In my opinion Eddie's reaction in both cases we know about in any detail ~ Portugal and Jersey ~ show that Eddie was not reliable at that stage in his career.

I believe that Eddie was badly used in so far as he was being taught new tricks when he couldn't forget the old tricks.  An experiment, as it were.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 13, 2018, 05:36:42 PM
One can only judge an animal's performance based on it's track record.  In my opinion Eddie's reaction in both cases we know about in any detail ~ Portugal and Jersey ~ show that Eddie was not reliable at that stage in his career.

12 million suggests not!
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Faithlilly on October 13, 2018, 05:55:58 PM
12 million suggests not!

For anyone to believe that solely in this case would the police question the use of the dogs is naive in the extreme.

It’s interestng that cadaver dog’s skills are only ever questioned by the defence.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 13, 2018, 06:28:08 PM
I have found a link

Acting in my role of advisor to the U.S. Justice Department I have facilitated assessment of numerous cadaver search dog teams in the United States. These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources. When I introduced pig based products into training assessments 100%! of the animals alerted to the medium.


https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm
Grime is good at training dogs but not so great at explaining himself.  The phrase "pig based products" is an undefined term.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 14, 2018, 01:50:43 AM
NOT the same.  Keela is trained to alert ONLY to blood and nothing but blood. 

Therefore, as recorded in the files, both dogs - Eddie and Keela - alerted to blood which forensics determined had nothing at all to do with any member of the McCann family.

The dogs used by the Institute of Canine Forensics ... Piper and Annie, both trained to find human remains, independent of each other "lay down around the same spot in the ruins, alerting their handlers they smelled human remains."
https://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/7579010-181/among-the-ashes-search-dogs?artslide=0&sba=AAS

the dogs are all part of the investigaiton and could form part of any circumstancial evidence suggesting parental involvment.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 14, 2018, 07:20:28 AM
the dogs are all part of the investigaiton and could form part of any circumstancial evidence suggesting parental involvment.
The thing that concerns me is there was nothing that could be found that would really corroborate the cadaver dog alerts.

DNA - Madeleine had been there so even the finding of Madeleine's DNA would not prove she had been dead in the apartment.
The PJ could only be hoping for a confession. 
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: barrier on October 14, 2018, 08:55:48 AM
The PJ could only be hoping for a confession.

Snip, along with SY now.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: xtina on October 14, 2018, 04:15:29 PM
So do you think there's a bottomless pit in Portugal as far as funding this case goes- how many years in total have PJ been investigating?  It must amount to a pretty penny, yet funnily enough I also don't hear much criticism ffrom the Portuguese about the amount being spent on one foreign missing child.  Could it possibly be that it's because they're actually not spending very much time or money trying to crack this case at all?


Or could it possibly be ....

they know they know there is only one way to crack the case....

think this is a good example of what need's doing imo.....


I'll leave this question: if the much acclaimed effort of the English police to find Maddie fails to produce results, despite the massive amount already invested, wouldn’t it be wise to reopen the investigation in Portugal, placing the homicide hypothesis again on the table?

in Correio da Manhã, May 1, 2017
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 14, 2018, 04:17:05 PM

Or could it possibly be ....

they know they know there is only one way to crack the case....

think this is a good example of what need's doing imo.....


I'll leave this question: if the much acclaimed effort of the English police to find Maddie fails to produce results, despite the massive amount already invested, wouldn’t it be wise to reopen the investigation in Portugal, placing the homicide hypothesis again on the table?

in Correio da Manhã, May 1, 2017
What are they waiting for then, if they know how to crack the case?
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Eleanor on October 14, 2018, 04:18:34 PM
What are they waiting for then, if they know how to crack the case?

Proof?  Evidence even?
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 14, 2018, 04:24:06 PM
Proof?  Evidence even?
Perhaps that is the PJ's strategy then.  Wait for some proof or evidence to drop in their laps.  No hurry, no worries. 
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: xtina on October 14, 2018, 04:24:49 PM
What are they waiting for then, if they know how to crack the case?


Probably waiting to see what SY come up with ....not a lot as yet is there....

IMO most of the majority of people ...would all say ....

 place the homicide hypothesis again on the table?


Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 14, 2018, 04:27:52 PM

Probably waiting to see what SY come up with ....not a lot as yet is there....

IMO most of the majority of people ...would all say ....

 place the homicide hypothesis again on the table?

What is the homicide hypothesis?  Do tell.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: xtina on October 14, 2018, 04:35:54 PM
What is the homicide hypothesis?  Do tell.


Oh lol

well obviously.........the maddie wasn't abducted one......
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Brietta on October 14, 2018, 04:40:35 PM
I have no idea why the PJ came to the conclusion that Madeleine had died in the holiday apartment with her parents responsible either to a greater or a lesser degree and then somehow disposed of her a if she was yesterday's rubbish, before they had taken the time to eliminate all other possibilities for which there was real evidence.

Joana Cipriano had vanished without trace from a village in close proximity to Luz and as far as I know no connection to that disappearance with Madeleine's was thought about by the investigators.
Who in my opinion were in a sticky wicket as far as Joana's disappearance was concerned ... the books had been written ... the 'murder' solved ... the mother doing the time ... reputations made as 'crimebusters' too.  So it might have been awkward for the same investigators when another little girl vanished in the same area.

Then when Scotland Yard discovered that seven abuse cases of minors had occurred ... later amended to many more ... it blew a gaping hole in any case against anyone until these assaults were ruled out of having any connection either to Joana or Madeleine's cases.
Of course being a murder victim ruled Joana out as a person in her own right ... the PJ had 'proved' she had died at the hands of her mother.
Just as in my opinion Madeleine was set to be ruled another dead non person who had a homicidal maniac for a mother, the ground being primed by pejorative illegally sourced leaks supposedly of her mother's diary.

In my opinion the Portuguese police jumped the gun on deciding Madeleine's death without properly investigating all other avenues ... I doubt there is another law enforcement agency who would have ignored a spate of assaults on minors some of whom may have shared Joana and Madeleine's profile ... when a minor went missing on their watch.

Yet it took the advent of Scotland Yard to take note of this elementary aspect of policing.


British investigate 7 sexual abuse before Maddie disappears
Betting in other cases, in the Luz zone, in 2007.

By Miguel Curado | 04.10.17

Snip
When it appeared to be definitely closed, the investigation into the disappearance of Maddie McCann in 2007 in Praia da Luz, Algarve, revived at the hands of the English Met Metropolitan Police - and with a well-defined course. The investigators focus on seven situations of sexual abuse to minors reported at the time, in that area, and that came to the time deserving the attention of the Portuguese police, namely the GNR, but without any results.
______________________________________________________________________________________
GNR, at the time of its receipt and the six other complaints, communicated them to the Judiciary Police. It was possible to conclude that at least five situations will have occurred before the disappearance of the child. However, none of the situations came to be used as a line of investigation. Now, ten years later, the Met wants to revive this scenario even because, according to British media reports yesterday, British investigators are in possession of a list of 38 sex offenders who were identified, at the time of the disappearance of the child, in the vicinity of Praia da Luz.

http://www.cmjornal.pt/portugal/detalhe/ingleses-investigam-7-abusos-sexuais-antes-de-maddie-desaparecer?v=cb

Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 14, 2018, 04:44:51 PM

Oh lol

well obviously.........the maddie wasn't abducted one......
Oh LOL.  How funny. 
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: xtina on October 14, 2018, 04:51:07 PM
I have no idea why the PJ came to the conclusion that Madeleine had died in the holiday apartment with her parents responsible either to a greater or a lesser degree and then somehow disposed of her a if she was yesterday's rubbish, before they had taken the time to eliminate all other possibilities for which there was real evidence.

Joana Cipriano had vanished without trace from a village in close proximity to Luz and as far as I know no connection to that disappearance with Madeleine's was thought about by the investigators.
Who in my opinion were in a sticky wicket as far as Joana's disappearance was concerned ... the books had been written ... the 'murder' solved ... the mother doing the time ... reputations made as 'crimebusters' too.  So it might have been awkward for the same investigators when another little girl vanished in the same area.

Then when Scotland Yard discovered that seven abuse cases of minors had occurred ... later amended to many more ... it blew a gaping hole in any case against anyone until these assaults were ruled out of having any connection either to Joana or Madeleine's cases.
Of course being a murder victim ruled Joana out as a person in her own right ... the PJ had 'proved' she had died at the hands of her mother.
Just as in my opinion Madeleine was set to be ruled another dead non person who had a homicidal maniac for a mother, the ground being primed by pejorative illegally sourced leaks supposedly of her mother's diary.

In my opinion the Portuguese police jumped the gun on deciding Madeleine's death without properly investigating all other avenues ... I doubt there is another law enforcement agency who would have ignored a spate of assaults on minors some of whom may have shared Joana and Madeleine's profile ... when a minor went missing on their watch.

Yet it took the advent of Scotland Yard to take note of this elementary aspect of policing.


British investigate 7 sexual abuse before Maddie disappears
Betting in other cases, in the Luz zone, in 2007.

By Miguel Curado | 04.10.17

Snip
When it appeared to be definitely closed, the investigation into the disappearance of Maddie McCann in 2007 in Praia da Luz, Algarve, revived at the hands of the English Met Metropolitan Police - and with a well-defined course. The investigators focus on seven situations of sexual abuse to minors reported at the time, in that area, and that came to the time deserving the attention of the Portuguese police, namely the GNR, but without any results.
______________________________________________________________________________________
GNR, at the time of its receipt and the six other complaints, communicated them to the Judiciary Police. It was possible to conclude that at least five situations will have occurred before the disappearance of the child. However, none of the situations came to be used as a line of investigation. Now, ten years later, the Met wants to revive this scenario even because, according to British media reports yesterday, British investigators are in possession of a list of 38 sex offenders who were identified, at the time of the disappearance of the child, in the vicinity of Praia da Luz.

http://www.cmjornal.pt/portugal/detalhe/ingleses-investigam-7-abusos-sexuais-antes-de-maddie-desaparecer?v=cb


In my opinion the Portuguese police jumped the gun on deciding Madeleine's death without properly investigating all other avenues ...

 now..... all other avenues have been pursued .....

costing 12 million.....and has took 7 years...

Still come up with nothing new..not a thing

.so imo PJ could have been on the right track all along....
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Brietta on October 14, 2018, 05:15:49 PM

In my opinion the Portuguese police jumped the gun on deciding Madeleine's death without properly investigating all other avenues ...

 now..... all other avenues have been pursued .....

costing 12 million.....and has took 7 years...

Still come up with nothing new..not a thing

.so imo PJ could have been on the right track all along....

Is that how it is done in Portugal when working on a child's disappearance?  Destroy the mother's reputation and charge her with murder instead of checking out all cases where entry has been made to children's bedrooms by a predator as part of the investigation of the case of a child who has vanished from her bedroom?

Somehow I don't think that is going to catch on where proper policing is concerned.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: xtina on October 14, 2018, 06:02:22 PM
Is that how it is done in Portugal when working on a child's disappearance?  Destroy the mother's reputation and charge her with murder instead of checking out all cases where entry has been made to children's bedrooms by a predator as part of the investigation of the case of a child who has vanished from her bedroom?

Somehow I don't think that is going to catch on where proper policing is concerned.


Well according to your way of thinking.......your words not mine...

apart from kmcc destroyed her own reputation....imo an spent 11 years trying to rebuild it
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: sadie on October 15, 2018, 12:25:04 AM
Keela didn't alert at the wardrobe only Eddie so it's not blood at that location.  All you need to know is that they were looking for evidence of a body in 2007 and were still looking for it 7 years after when SY returned. The dog alerts are relevant to this case as is the original forensic material that was stored.
By the wardrobe, I presume you mean the wall between the wardrobe and the headboard?  Several feet up the wall.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 15, 2018, 12:44:44 AM
By the wardrobe, I presume you mean the wall between the wardrobe and the headboard?  Several feet up the wall.
No I think PF means the wardrobe.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: sadie on October 15, 2018, 01:30:49 AM
No I think PF means the wardrobe.

Too late for me to find the video, but ...
I seem to remember that the alert was up the wall between the bedhead and the wardrobe.  Not in the wardrobe or at the outside of the wardrobe

Surely the alert was at the wall highish up between the bedhead and the wardrobe ?

Pathfinder?
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 15, 2018, 07:22:22 AM
Too late for me to find the video, but ...
I seem to remember that the alert was up the wall between the bedhead and the wardrobe.  Not in the wardrobe or at the outside of the wardrobe

Surely the alert was at the wall highish up between the bedhead and the wardrobe ?

Pathfinder?

Did Eddie climb up a chair to alert up the wall Sadie?

Martin Grime

What we have to be able to understand in a situation such as this is in a hot climate with the apartment being closed down, the scent will build up in a particular area. If there isn't a scent source in here, i.e. a physical article where the scent is emitting from, any scent residue will collect in a particular place due to the air movement of the flat, the apartment and what I would say in this case is that there is enough scent in that area there for him to give me a bark indication but the source may not be in that cupboard, the source may well be in this room somewhere else but the air is actually pushing into that corner. But strong indication and I would say its positive for things that he is trained to find, which will be part of a separate debrief.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

He thought that alert was positive for things that Eddie was trained to find.

Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: misty on October 15, 2018, 08:58:05 PM
Did Eddie climb up a chair to alert up the wall Sadie?

Martin Grime

What we have to be able to understand in a situation such as this is in a hot climate with the apartment being closed down, the scent will build up in a particular area. If there isn't a scent source in here, i.e. a physical article where the scent is emitting from, any scent residue will collect in a particular place due to the air movement of the flat, the apartment and what I would say in this case is that there is enough scent in that area there for him to give me a bark indication but the source may not be in that cupboard, the source may well be in this room somewhere else but the air is actually pushing into that corner. But strong indication and I would say its positive for things that he is trained to find, which will be part of a separate debrief.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

He thought that alert was positive for things that Eddie was trained to find.

But the scent also may not have originated from any source in the room, just pooled in the corner - rather like the steam from a shower finds its way from one room to another when doors are left open.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 15, 2018, 09:06:32 PM
But the scent also may not have originated from any source in the room, just pooled in the corner - rather like the steam from a shower finds its way from one room to another when doors are left open.
Steamy windows ...
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: misty on October 15, 2018, 09:13:27 PM
Steamy windows ...

...and mould in the far corners of rooms or inside wardrobes...
I think it was rather deceitful of Grime to introduce ambiguity regarding scent pooling in that location but not behind the sofa.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 15, 2018, 09:15:25 PM
Did Eddie climb up a chair to alert up the wall Sadie?

Martin Grime

What we have to be able to understand in a situation such as this is in a hot climate with the apartment being closed down, the scent will build up in a particular area. If there isn't a scent source in here, i.e. a physical article where the scent is emitting from, any scent residue will collect in a particular place due to the air movement of the flat, the apartment and what I would say in this case is that there is enough scent in that area there for him to give me a bark indication but the source may not be in that cupboard, the source may well be in this room somewhere else but the air is actually pushing into that corner. But strong indication and I would say its positive for things that he is trained to find, which will be part of a separate debrief.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

He thought that alert was positive for things that Eddie was trained to find.
Grime is trying to rewrite the laws of physics....the apartment was not closed down the scent molecules would not pool but move around at random
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 15, 2018, 09:16:12 PM
...and mould in the far corners of rooms or inside wardrobes...
I think it was rather deceitful of Grime to introduce ambiguity regarding scent pooling in that location but not behind the sofa.

He could have said nothing. That could be construed as deceitful by some for example yourself. IMO he was simply being honest and truthful and he trusted what his dogs alerted to. He knows far more about them than you ever will yet you scrutinise the videos along with others to find things to poke at him with.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 15, 2018, 09:17:29 PM
Grime is trying to rewrite the laws of physics....the apartment was not closed down the scent molecules would not pool but move around at random

I asked you a couple of days ago. How many days would the apartment have to be empty before your Brownian Motion occurred. I can't recall getting an answer, probably because I didn't.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 15, 2018, 09:19:50 PM
He could have said nothing. That could be construed as deceitful by some for example yourself. IMO he was simply being honest and truthful and he trusted what his dogs alerted to. He knows far more about them than you ever will yet you scrutinise the videos along with others to find things to poke at him with.

From his statements he cannot confirm what the dogs alerted to...scent does not pool it dissipates
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 15, 2018, 09:20:38 PM
I asked you a couple of days ago. How many days would the apartment have to be empty before your Brownian Motion occurred. I can't recall getting an answer, probably because I didn't.

Brownian motion occurs immediately
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 15, 2018, 09:21:29 PM
From his statements he cannot confirm what the dogs alerted to...scent does not pool it dissipates

I didn't say pool it was misty Davel.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 15, 2018, 09:32:32 PM
I didn't say pool it was misty Davel.

Grime days the scent will build up....pool..in a certain area...it won't..it will dissipate
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 15, 2018, 09:37:22 PM
Grime days the scent will build up....pool..in a certain area...it won't..it will dissipate

Do you know how cadaver scent moves Davel? I imagine that Martin Grime knows more about it than you do.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: misty on October 15, 2018, 09:45:06 PM
He could have said nothing. That could be construed as deceitful by some for example yourself. IMO he was simply being honest and truthful and he trusted what his dogs alerted to. He knows far more about them than you ever will yet you scrutinise the videos along with others to find things to poke at him with.

There are scent cones & there are scent pools. If the dog/handler couldn't establish the source of the scent, how could the handler differentiate between the dog alerting at a source or a location somewhere within the cone? That principle applies to some of the other alerts.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 15, 2018, 09:51:29 PM
There are scent cones & there are scent pools. If the dog/handler couldn't establish the source of the scent, how could the handler differentiate between the dog alerting at a source or a location somewhere within the cone? That principle applies to some of the other alerts.

Having read about scent cones I believe Eddie would have zigzagged back to where the scent was strongest before alerting.  With scent pooling he would get his nose in the middle and alert IMO.    Davel said cadaver scent won't pool. I disagree with him too by the way misty.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 15, 2018, 09:52:57 PM
Do you know how cadaver scent moves Davel? I imagine that Martin Grime knows more about it than you do.

He doesn't seem to..scent moves via Brownian motion...it does not collect anywhere..it dissipates
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 15, 2018, 09:54:42 PM
There are scent cones & there are scent pools. If the dog/handler couldn't establish the source of the scent, how could the handler differentiate between the dog alerting at a source or a location somewhere within the cone? That principle applies to some of the other alerts.

A scent cone may be present when there are physical remains present....with scent being constantly produced
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 15, 2018, 10:07:48 PM
He doesn't seem to..scent moves via Brownian motion...it does not collect anywhere..it dissipates

Dissipates in what?
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: misty on October 15, 2018, 10:08:12 PM
A scent cone may be present when there are physical remains present....with scent being constantly produced

What about when the scent has adhered to a permeable substance, like the fabric on the sofa? As the odour dissipated its pathway into the atmosphere was blocked by walls?
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 15, 2018, 10:17:46 PM
What about when the scent has adhered to a permeable substance, like the fabric on the sofa? As the odour dissipated its pathway into the atmosphere was blocked by walls?

Open windows and doors....if the scent molecules had been absorbed by a porous surface then surely they would be physically detectable
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 15, 2018, 10:20:21 PM
Dissipates in what?

Surrounding air and out through windows  and doors..remnant scent lasts in a completely sealed room but would not in one with open windows and doors....and certainly not an outside flower bed
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 15, 2018, 10:24:03 PM
Grime days the scent will build up....pool..in a certain area...it won't..it will dissipate
If cadaver odour persists, it might persist in fine particles, for example, skin cells that come off a cadaver.  Now I could think that it is possible that heavier than air particles like cells are blown around in the air currents and could accumulate in certain areas.
So rather than odours being concentrated it is the source of the odours that are gathered.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 15, 2018, 10:25:42 PM
Dissipates in what?
In the atmosphere.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 15, 2018, 10:33:04 PM
In the atmosphere.

Which comprises? [in the location under consideration]
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: misty on October 15, 2018, 10:34:20 PM
Open windows and doors....if the scent molecules had been absorbed by a porous surface then surely they would be physically detectable

There isn't a scientific test to confirm that which is acceptable in court. It was used in the Casey Anthony trial & was part of the reason the jury didn't convict - the test developed was only capable of identifying some components of cadaver odour.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 15, 2018, 10:37:36 PM
Surrounding air and out through windows  and doors..remnant scent lasts in a completely sealed room but would not in one with open windows and doors....and certainly not an outside flower bed

So what's with the Brownian movement stuff then ?
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 15, 2018, 10:46:54 PM
Which comprises? [in the location under consideration]
The air in the room when the doors are shut and more if the doors and windows were opened.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 15, 2018, 11:08:52 PM
The air in the room when the doors are shut and more if the doors and windows were opened.

So the scent moves with the air flow?
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 15, 2018, 11:14:23 PM
So the scent moves with the air flow?
But scent in the air will never concentrate only dissipate. But dust particles do accumulate.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 15, 2018, 11:17:46 PM
But scent in the air will never concentrate only dissipate. But dust particles do accumulate.

Here are some diagrams of how cadaver scent moves outdoors, Rob

http://www.vsrda.org/how-scent-and-airflow-works

From there - Pooling

Pooling Scent
collects in an area like a pool of water
usually occurs in a low area
occurs where there is little dispersal of scent by the wind
It hard for dog to follow a scent pool to the subject
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 15, 2018, 11:29:04 PM
Here are some diagrams of how cadaver scent moves outdoors, Rob

http://www.vsrda.org/how-scent-and-airflow-works

From there - Pooling

Pooling Scent
collects in an area like a pool of water
usually occurs in a low area
occurs where there is little dispersal of scent by the wind
It hard for dog to follow a scent pool to the subject

Pooling with water is the flow of water to a lower level basin, I doubt if that happens with gases to any degree.

OK cold air is denser than warm air meaning cold air will pool.  If air with scent was denser than non scented air it could happen, but I doubt it.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: misty on October 16, 2018, 12:14:55 AM
Pooling with water is the flow of water to a lower level basin, I doubt if that happens with gases to any degree.

OK cold air is denser than warm air meaning cold air will pool.  If air with scent was denser than non scented air it could happen, but I doubt it.

The question I ask is :- at what stage do the molecules separate enough during diffusion to cease becoming recognisable to dogs as cadaver odour?
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 16, 2018, 01:26:27 AM
The question I ask is :- at what stage do the molecules separate enough during diffusion to cease becoming recognisable to dogs as cadaver odour?
There would be a variety of molecules that need to be together for the dog to recognise the odour as human cadaver.

All cadavers will produce putrecine  "Putrescine, is a foul-smelling organic chemical compound NH2(CH2)4NH2 (1,4-diaminobutane or butanediamine) that is related to cadaverine; both are produced by the breakdown of amino acids in living and dead organisms and both are toxic in large doses."

All cadavers will produce cadaverine  "Cadaverine is a foul-smelling diamine compound produced by the putrefaction of animal tissue. Cadaverine is a toxic diamine with the formula NH2(CH2)5NH2, which is similar to putrescine. Cadaverine is also known by the names 1,5-pentanediamine and pentamethylenediamine."

So even though I read that cadaver dogs are sniffing cadaverine and putrescine these molecules are just the basic.  - Like that confirms to a dog they are dealing with a dead body.

The dog must have additionally picked up that there are other species specific molecules, and what they are, I just don't know. Is it something based on our diets as compared to other animals.


Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 16, 2018, 01:33:45 AM
Here are some diagrams of how cadaver scent moves outdoors, Rob

http://www.vsrda.org/how-scent-and-airflow-works

From there - Pooling

Pooling Scent
collects in an area like a pool of water
usually occurs in a low area
occurs where there is little dispersal of scent by the wind
It hard for dog to follow a scent pool to the subject


This example talks about following scent to the subject... physical remains..so there is a constant supply of odour....not remnant scent
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 16, 2018, 01:42:21 AM
The question I ask is :- at what stage do the molecules separate enough during diffusion to cease becoming recognisable to dogs as cadaver odour?
If this article is correct a dog is smelling "skin rafts" not actual molecules.  http://www.vsrda.org/how-scent-and-airflow-works

Air scenting dogs might operate that way  but they say cadaver dogs can detect odours on items even after they have been laundered, so I tend to think it will be something other than skins rafts.  Only a guess.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 16, 2018, 06:58:02 AM
Surrounding air and out through windows  and doors..remnant scent lasts in a completely sealed room but would not in one with open windows and doors....and certainly not an outside flower bed

Do you have a cite for the windows and doors being open and that remnant scent wouldn't last unless the room was completely sealed. 
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 16, 2018, 07:18:21 AM
Do you have a cite for the windows and doors being open and that remnant scent wouldn't last unless the room was completely sealed.
The apt was let out...so doors and windows neould be opened.

There are no studies that show how long scent would last.
That's the whole point re alerts...no science to support them
There was an alert outside in the flower bed...how on earth would remnant scent last ,3 months outside
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 16, 2018, 07:27:50 AM
The apt was let out...so doors and windows neould be opened.

There are no studies that show how long scent would last.
That's the whole point re alerts...no science to support them
There was an alert outside in the flower bed...how on earth would remnant scent last ,3 months outside

I have read that soil will hold cadaver scent and that bushes etc will also preserve the scent. 

Also regarding windows, doors.  From the Theresa Parker case.

Grime added Eddie did not seem interested in the vehicles but in a scent that was wafting in the air, based on the way the dog held his nose upward. Grime said Eddie then "hit" on an abandoned house next door. Testimony shows that house was never repaired after a fire gutted the inside and killed a child several years ago.


http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6271.615

But of course you know more than Martin Grime.  I wonder what happens when science catches up with the dog alerts Davel, it may already have, then what will you say?
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 16, 2018, 07:33:01 AM
I have read that soil will hold cadaver scent and that bushes etc will also preserve the scent. 

Also regarding windows, doors.  From the Theresa Parker case.

Grime added Eddie did not seem interested in the vehicles but in a scent that was wafting in the air, based on the way the dog held his nose upward. Grime said Eddie then "hit" on an abandoned house next door. Testimony shows that house was never repaired after a fire gutted the inside and killed a child several years ago.


http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6271.615

But of course you know more than Martin Grime.  I wonder what happens when science catches up with the dog alerts Davel, it may already have, then what will you say?

If the soil was holding scent it would hold molecules that could be tested for...there is no science to support the validity of the alerts...the alerts have never been scientifically tested.  Until they are they have no evidential reliability..
Grime is a dog handler..not a scientist...all his claims have little value without evidence
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 16, 2018, 01:25:54 PM
If the soil was holding scent it would hold molecules that could be tested for...there is no science to support the validity of the alerts...the alerts have never been scientifically tested.  Until they are they have no evidential reliability..
Grime is a dog handler..not a scientist...all his claims have little value without evidence

A bit like your claims Davel. No cite no value IMO
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 16, 2018, 01:29:42 PM
If the soil was holding scent it would hold molecules that could be tested for...there is no science to support the validity of the alerts...the alerts have never been scientifically tested.  Until they are they have no evidential reliability..
Grime is a dog handler..not a scientist...all his claims have little value without evidence

I imagine Martin Grime has a tiny bit more knowledge of cadaver scent and how it moves or stays in place than you do Davel.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 16, 2018, 01:57:44 PM
A bit like your claims Davel. No cite no value IMO

I would agree...without proper scientific testing the value of the alerts is quite limited.... but the dogs are trained to find evidence and that's what gives them value
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 16, 2018, 02:14:53 PM
I imagine Martin Grime has a tiny bit more knowledge of cadaver scent and how it moves or stays in place than you do Davel.
He may be referring to a closed building which had physical remains...if not he makes no sense
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 16, 2018, 02:49:01 PM
But scent in the air will never concentrate only dissipate. But dust particles do accumulate.

Yes! Then what happens?
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 16, 2018, 03:56:37 PM
He may be referring to a closed building which had physical remains...if not he makes no sense

And then again he may not.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Lace on October 16, 2018, 04:14:56 PM
A cadaver dog would also smell blood even if the article has been removed.   Keela wouldn't alert to that but Eddie would.   It could mean that the a family after the McCann's could have left bloody clothing or bloody tissue in the wardrobe or on the floor and then took it away,  Eddie would still alert to the scent of it.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 16, 2018, 04:19:09 PM
And then again he may not.

Then he needs a lesson in physics
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 16, 2018, 04:27:10 PM
Then he needs a lesson in physics

Now why would he require a lesson in physics just because a dog alerted in the garden of a property.  Perhaps you need a lesson in residual cadaver scent, davel.   

Here is a drugs dog that alerted to the outside door handle of a vehicle. over 2 months after the drugs were removed.

 https://tacticalpolicek9training.com/detection-dogs/residual-drug-odor-research/
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: misty on October 16, 2018, 04:36:41 PM
Now why would he require a lesson in physics just because a dog alerted in the garden of a property.  Perhaps you need a lesson in residual cadaver scent, davel.   

Here is a drugs dog that alerted to the outside door handle of a vehicle. over 2 months after the drugs were removed.

 https://tacticalpolicek9training.com/detection-dogs/residual-drug-odor-research/

How did the drug scent get on the car door handle in the first place, given that it's not a place drugs would have been stored?
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 16, 2018, 04:46:18 PM
How did the drug scent get on the car door handle in the first place, given that it's not a place drugs would have been stored?

From his hand opening the door? 
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: misty on October 16, 2018, 04:56:06 PM
From his hand opening the door?

Not necessarily the car owner's hand, though (but it the cited case it almost certainly was).

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2018/03/22/one-ten-people-have-never-used-cocaine-have-traces-fingertips/

There is always the risk of cross-contamination & in an area where the locals slaughter pigs as a way of life, it is not unreasonable to speculate contamination from shoes brought into 5A from elsewhere. (http://www.saomarcosdaserra.com/a-way-of-life.php)

However, none of that explains why Amaral had already decided that Madeleine was dead on Day 1 without a shred of evidence to substantiate that & before he'd even visited the crime scene.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: barrier on October 16, 2018, 04:59:02 PM
Not necessarily the car owner's hand, though (but it the cited case it almost certainly was).

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2018/03/22/one-ten-people-have-never-used-cocaine-have-traces-fingertips/

There is always the risk of cross-contamination & in an area where the locals slaughter pigs as a way of life, it is not unreasonable to speculate contamination from shoes brought into 5A from elsewhere. (http://www.saomarcosdaserra.com/a-way-of-life.php)

However, none of that explains why Amaral had already decided that Madeleine was dead on Day 1 without a shred of evidence to substantiate that & before he'd even visited the crime scene.

With no corroborated sighting's, chances are he was right.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: misty on October 16, 2018, 05:03:59 PM
With no corroborated sighting's, chances are he was right.

It was up to the PJ to corroborate that hasty assumption, despite it not being in line with standard police procedure. As a body has never been found, chances are he was also wrong.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 16, 2018, 05:24:25 PM
Now why would he require a lesson in physics just because a dog alerted in the garden of a property.  Perhaps you need a lesson in residual cadaver scent, davel.   

Here is a drugs dog that alerted to the outside door handle of a vehicle. over 2 months after the drugs were removed.

 https://tacticalpolicek9training.com/detection-dogs/residual-drug-odor-research/
It says door handle... Not outside door  handle as you have  claimed
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: barrier on October 16, 2018, 05:35:20 PM
It was up to the PJ to corroborate that hasty assumption, despite it not being in line with standard police procedure. As a body has never been found, chances are he was also wrong.


50/50 even M Rowley acknowledged it with no evidence of either 10 yrs after the event,the horse bolted long ago imo.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 16, 2018, 06:14:04 PM
I imagine Martin Grime has a tiny bit more knowledge of cadaver scent and how it moves or stays in place than you do Davel.
That is an assumption.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 16, 2018, 06:16:06 PM
Yes! Then what happens?
The dust should then be vacuumed up by the cleaning staff.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 16, 2018, 06:18:41 PM
Not necessarily the car owner's hand, though (but it the cited case it almost certainly was).

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2018/03/22/one-ten-people-have-never-used-cocaine-have-traces-fingertips/

There is always the risk of cross-contamination & in an area where the locals slaughter pigs as a way of life, it is not unreasonable to speculate contamination from shoes brought into 5A from elsewhere. (http://www.saomarcosdaserra.com/a-way-of-life.php)

However, none of that explains why Amaral had already decided that Madeleine was dead on Day 1 without a shred of evidence to substantiate that & before he'd even visited the crime scene.

Do you have a cite that Goncalo Amaral decided Madeleine was dead on Day 1 please?
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 16, 2018, 07:33:24 PM
It says door handle... Not outside door  handle as you have  claimed

And this says exterior (i.e. outside) Davel

Upon conducting a “free air sniff” of the exterior of the truck, Aldo alerted to the door handle of the driver's side.
https://caselaw.findlaw.com/fl-supreme-court/1564367.html

S
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: misty on October 16, 2018, 08:06:44 PM
Do you have a cite that Goncalo Amaral decided Madeleine was dead on Day 1 please?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10048.msg483728#msg483728   

There are also selective paragraphs in Chapter 3 of TToTL which indicate the train  of thought.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: G-Unit on October 16, 2018, 08:47:10 PM
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10048.msg483728#msg483728   

There are also selective paragraphs in Chapter 3 of TToTL which indicate the train  of thought.

Do you believe newspaper stories can be relied on?
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Sunny on October 16, 2018, 09:08:27 PM
Do you believe newspaper stories can be relied on?

When it suits them, probably.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 16, 2018, 09:11:37 PM
Do you believe newspaper stories can be relied on?
It is a start if the reporter has made some effort to get their facts straight.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: misty on October 16, 2018, 09:14:41 PM
Do you believe newspaper stories can be relied on?

This news surfaced within hours of the first round of arguido statements - so, yes, in this case. The journalist hadn't interviewed any of the Tapas 9.
I tend to be rather sceptical of any news story these days without eye-witness statement or video footage. There are too many fake news sources these days which purport to provide "the real story".
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 16, 2018, 09:30:45 PM
This news surfaced within hours of the first round of arguido statements - so, yes, in this case. The journalist hadn't interviewed any of the Tapas 9.
I tend to be rather sceptical of any news story these days without eye-witness statement or video footage. There are too many fake news sources these days which purport to provide "the real story".

Indeed , and the McCanns favorite rag 'The Sun' tops them all according to the headlines they throw up.  And Kates book isn't quite the story about Madeleine as was expected.. some nausiating bits not suitable for those of us  who are not so , verbatim about sexual matters. Which incidentally, have no place in a book about a child being abducted.  Even this forum has restricted censored passages . 

 The PJ wuold have the same thoughts as everyone else- was the child dead or alive  they would be 50% correct and 50% wrong.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: misty on October 16, 2018, 10:21:34 PM
Indeed , and the McCanns favorite rag 'The Sun' tops them all according to the headlines they throw up.  And Kates book isn't quite the story about Madeleine as was expected.. some nausiating bits not suitable for those of us  who are not so , verbatim about sexual matters. Which incidentally, have no place in a book about a child being abducted.  Even this forum has restricted censored passages . 

 The PJ wuold have the same thoughts as everyone else- was the child dead or alive  they would be 50% correct and 50% wrong.

So why the concerted effort to turn that 50% into 100% dead at such an early stage?
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 17, 2018, 12:02:50 AM
So why the concerted effort to turn that 50% into 100% dead at such an early stage?
You'll have to clarify "concerted effort" and "such an early stage".

Otherwise it sounds like Clari-speak.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: misty on October 17, 2018, 12:18:21 AM
You'll have to clarify "concerted effort" and "such an early stage".

Otherwise it sounds like Clari-speak.

If it was "a badly-told STORY" according to the press/PJ by 5/5/07, did that not set the scene for everything which followed?
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: sadie on October 17, 2018, 12:22:36 AM
So why the concerted effort to turn that 50% into 100% dead at such an early stage?
Excellent point misty.

I wonder why ?

But I do have ideas.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 17, 2018, 12:31:17 AM
If it was "a badly-told STORY" according to the press/PJ by 5/5/07, did that not set the scene for everything which followed?
If you want to start a thread re "a badly told story" I will be happy to engage in constructive debate on that point.

Until then, it is simply a convenient hook to hang one's hat on.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: misty on October 17, 2018, 12:41:18 AM
If you want to start a thread re "a badly told story" I will be happy to engage in constructive debate on that point.

Until then, it is simply a convenient hook to hang one's hat on.

I don't really see it necessary to start a new thread as IMO this first report was a catalyst for the negative attitude which followed towards Madeleine, the reported abduction, her parents & the wider group affected.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 17, 2018, 12:49:38 AM
I don't really see it necessary to start a new thread as IMO this first report was a catalyst for the negative attitude which followed towards Madeleine, the reported abduction, her parents & the wider group affected.
While I don't.

What negative attitude which followed towards Madeleine?

Sorry, I'm not buying it.  But if you don't wish to discuss it, perhaps it is time to move on.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: misty on October 17, 2018, 01:01:16 AM
While I don't.

What negative attitude which followed towards Madeleine?

Sorry, I'm not buying it.  But if you don't wish to discuss it, perhaps it is time to move on.

OG continues. PJ Oporto continues. Neither have presumably abandoned hope of returning Madeleine to her parents.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Brietta on October 17, 2018, 02:52:48 AM
While I don't.

What negative attitude which followed towards Madeleine?

Sorry, I'm not buying it.  But if you don't wish to discuss it, perhaps it is time to move on.

In my opinion it is negative as far as Madeleine is concerned to insist on Madeleine's death without a single shred of supporting evidence.

I seem to recall a frisson emanating from certain places in the run up to the seventh anniversary of her disappearance ... not in my opinion a positive attitude for Madeleine.
Then beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Eleanor on October 17, 2018, 03:23:29 AM
In my opinion it is negative as far as Madeleine is concerned to insist on Madeleine's death without a single shred of supporting evidence.

I seem to recall a frisson emanating from certain places in the run up to the seventh anniversary of her disappearance ... not in my opinion a positive attitude for Madeleine.
Then beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

No.  The PJ were not right to decide that Madeleine had died early on.  But we can't actually be sure that they did because so many lies were being told.

This was the biggest f*ck up.  But not even to this day can anyone actually say.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Brietta on October 17, 2018, 03:45:01 AM
No.  The PJ were not right to decide that Madeleine had died early on.  But we can't actually be sure that they did because so many lies were being told.

This was the biggest f*ck up.  But not even to this day can anyone actually say.

"Lions led by donkeys" springs to mind and I have every confidence that the present PJ investigators would like nothing better than to wipe the slate clean on it by getting a result either with or without Scotland Yard.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Eleanor on October 17, 2018, 04:29:29 AM
"Lions led by donkeys" springs to mind and I have every confidence that the present PJ investigators would like nothing better than to wipe the slate clean on it by getting a result either with or without Scotland Yard.

If only I had that much hope.  But I am not actually blaming anyone.  It was all far to late when this lot took over.

So they aren't telling anything.  Gosh, what a surprise.  They would have to be stark staring to even think about it.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 17, 2018, 04:57:24 AM
In my opinion it is negative as far as Madeleine is concerned to insist on Madeleine's death without a single shred of supporting evidence.

I seem to recall a frisson emanating from certain places in the run up to the seventh anniversary of her disappearance ... not in my opinion a positive attitude for Madeleine.
Then beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
"frisson

noun
a sudden strong feeling of excitement or fear; a thrill.
"a frisson of excitement""  Thanks Dr. Google.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: slartibartfast on October 17, 2018, 10:07:27 AM
Indeed , and the McCanns favorite rag 'The Sun' tops them all according to the headlines they throw up.  And Kates book isn't quite the story about Madeleine as was expected.. some nausiating bits not suitable for those of us  who are not so , verbatim about sexual matters. Which incidentally, have no place in a book about a child being abducted.  Even this forum has restricted censored passages . 

 The PJ wuold have the same thoughts as everyone else- was the child dead or alive  they would be 50% correct and 50% wrong.

A general comment, this 50/50 can be very misleading, just because there are 2 possible outcomes does not necessarily mean that the probability of each is equal.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 17, 2018, 10:11:12 AM
A general comment, this 50/50 can be very misleading, just because there are 2 possible outcomes does not necessarily mean that the probability of each is equal.
Absolutely true,,,...so with the probability of parental involveemnt being low...the probability of abduction must be high
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 17, 2018, 11:01:17 AM
Absolutely true,,,...so with the probability of parental involveemnt being low...the probability of abduction must be high
Not an IMO in sight.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 17, 2018, 11:08:24 AM
Not an IMO in sight.

Why should I when you refuse to give cites for your claims
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: slartibartfast on October 17, 2018, 11:22:34 AM
Absolutely true,,,...so with the probability of parental involveemnt being low...the probability of abduction must be high

In a US study...

797,500 people under 18 were reported missing in a one-year period, according to a 2002 study. But of those cases, 203,900 were family abductions, 58,200 were nonfamily abductions, and only 115 were “stereotypical kidnappings,” defined in one study as “a nonfamily abduction perpetrated by a slight acquaintance or stranger in which a child is detained overnight, transported at least 50 miles, held for ransom or abducted with the intent to keep the child permanently, or killed.”
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 17, 2018, 11:30:18 AM
In a US study...

797,500 people under 18 were reported missing in a one-year period, according to a 2002 study. But of those cases, 203,900 were family abductions, 58,200 were nonfamily abductions, and only 115 were “stereotypical kidnappings,” defined in one study as “a nonfamily abduction perpetrated by a slight acquaintance or stranger in which a child is detained overnight, transported at least 50 miles, held for ransom or abducted with the intent to keep the child permanently, or killed.”

What do you think those figures suggest to this case
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: slartibartfast on October 17, 2018, 11:48:13 AM
What do you think those figures suggest to this case

It says in a missing child case, stranger abduction is the least likely cause.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 17, 2018, 11:54:59 AM
It says in a missing child case, stranger abduction is the least likely cause.

Which is true... That is intelligence  not evidence...
You need to look at each individual case to decide what is most likely. Most family child abductions involve seperated parents and custody disputes... How many of the cases you have quoted involve accidental death and a cover up by patents... And their friends.... A lot less than stranger abductions
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: slartibartfast on October 17, 2018, 11:59:56 AM
Which is true... That is intelligence  not evidence...
You need to look at each individual case to decide what is most likely. Most family child abductions involve seperated parents and custody disputes... How many of the cases you have quoted involve accidental death and a cover up by patents... And their friends.... A lot less than stranger abductions

Until you start investigating you have to go with raw statistics to help direct the areas most likely to be of benefit.

Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Brietta on October 17, 2018, 12:03:09 PM
It says in a missing child case, stranger abduction is the least likely cause.

Sarah Jayne Harper ... Holly and Jessica ... James Bulger ... Sarah Payne ... Moira Anderson ... etc

There is a very long and tragic list of children abducted by strangers in which 'statistics' count for nothing ... every missing child case must be considered on the evidence.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 17, 2018, 12:07:52 PM
Until you start investigating you have to go with raw statistics to help direct the areas most likely to be of benefit.

Yes thats what you do at the start... But we aren't at the start now ..
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: slartibartfast on October 17, 2018, 12:11:11 PM
Sarah Jayne Harper ... Holly and Jessica ... James Bulger ... Sarah Payne ... Moira Anderson ... etc

There is a very long and tragic list of children abducted by strangers in which 'statistics' count for nothing ... every missing child case must be considered on the evidence.

Not sure if that is anecdotal or Texas sharpshooter fallacy.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: slartibartfast on October 17, 2018, 12:11:47 PM
Yes thats what you do at the start... But we aren't at the start now ..

Yes, we now know there is no evidence of stranger abduction. IMO.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 17, 2018, 12:23:11 PM
Until you start investigating you have to go with raw statistics to help direct the areas most likely to be of benefit.
No.  Until you start investigating you should keep a completely open mind about what happened, IMO.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 17, 2018, 12:24:24 PM
Yes, we now know there is no evidence of stranger abduction. IMO.
Yes there is, unless you are also prepared to accept that there is no evidence of woke and wandered and parental involvement.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: jassi on October 17, 2018, 12:34:54 PM
Yes there is, unless you are also prepared to accept that there is no evidence of woke and wandered and parental involvement.

Quite right, there is no real evidence of anything, so it's all down to probabilities.
It is my opinion that the parents are probably responsible for her disappearance.
There are other opinions.  ?{)(**
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Lace on October 17, 2018, 12:38:52 PM
Quite right, there is no real evidence of anything, so it's all down to probabilities.
It is my opinion that the parents are probably responsible for her disappearance.
There are other opinions.  ?{)(**

The problem with your opinion is that no one can actually give a theory of how the McCann's managed to cover up Madeleine's disappearance and still go for dinner,  behaving normally.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 17, 2018, 12:40:55 PM
Quite right, there is no real evidence of anything, so it's all down to probabilities.
It is my opinion that the parents are probably responsible for her disappearance.
There are other opinions.  ?{)(**
Yet you would be unable to put forward a coherent and plausible narrative of how they did it which therefore IMO increases the probability that your opinion is less valid than mine.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 17, 2018, 12:51:41 PM
Yes, we now know there is no evidence of stranger abduction. IMO.

You have quoted statistics so what iyo is, the probability  of parental involvement
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: slartibartfast on October 17, 2018, 01:06:00 PM
Yet you would be unable to put forward a coherent and plausible narrative of how they did it which therefore IMO increases the probability that your opinion is less valid than mine.

It’s quite easy, just not something you can do where your opinions may be used against you.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 17, 2018, 01:14:38 PM
It’s quite easy, just not something you can do where your opinions may be used against you.
That is quite untrue IMO, and is simply used a convenient excuse by sceptics on this forum.   I have yet to see a single plausible or coherent theory anywhere else online or in print, in places where sceptics appear to be less concerned about writing libellous content. 
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Brietta on October 17, 2018, 01:22:17 PM
Not sure if that is anecdotal or Texas sharpshooter fallacy.
https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/crime/killer-of-leeds-schoolgirl-sarah-harper-is-unmasked-in-new-murder-trial-1-3851327
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soham_murders
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_James_Bulger
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Sarah_Payne
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/16031487.credible-witness-emerges-in-moira-anderson-mystery/

The content of your post is a mystery to me but it seems you are unaware of some of the most high profile British missing children who were subsequently found to have been abducted by strangers.

The only stranger abduction that does indeed have a Texas connection is that of Isabel Celis which is where the little girl or her body was taken across State lines and found in Texas. https://edition.cnn.com/2017/03/31/us/arizona-isabel-celis-remains-found/index.html   
That is is the only one I can think of at the moment.

But no doubt you know what your post is all about ... as I've already said ... you most certainly have not made it clear as far as I am concerned.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 17, 2018, 01:51:34 PM
https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/crime/killer-of-leeds-schoolgirl-sarah-harper-is-unmasked-in-new-murder-trial-1-3851327
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soham_murders
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_James_Bulger
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Sarah_Payne
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/16031487.credible-witness-emerges-in-moira-anderson-mystery/

The content of your post is a mystery to me but it seems you are unaware of some of the most high profile British missing children who were subsequently found to have been abducted by strangers.

The only stranger abduction that does indeed have a Texas connection is that of Isabel Celis which is where the little girl or her body was taken across State lines and found in Texas. https://edition.cnn.com/2017/03/31/us/arizona-isabel-celis-remains-found/index.html   
That is is the only one I can think of at the moment.

But no doubt you know what your post is all about ... as I've already said ... you most certainly have not made it clear as far as I am concerned.
Slarti has a list as long as your arm of fallacies, one for every post made by a supporter it seems, it’s just a forum technique designed to shut your opponent up. 
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: slartibartfast on October 17, 2018, 01:53:16 PM
https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/crime/killer-of-leeds-schoolgirl-sarah-harper-is-unmasked-in-new-murder-trial-1-3851327
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soham_murders
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_James_Bulger
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Sarah_Payne
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/16031487.credible-witness-emerges-in-moira-anderson-mystery/

The content of your post is a mystery to me but it seems you are unaware of some of the most high profile British missing children who were subsequently found to have been abducted by strangers.

The only stranger abduction that does indeed have a Texas connection is that of Isabel Celis which is where the little girl or her body was taken across State lines and found in Texas. https://edition.cnn.com/2017/03/31/us/arizona-isabel-celis-remains-found/index.html   
That is is the only one I can think of at the moment.

But no doubt you know what your post is all about ... as I've already said ... you most certainly have not made it clear as far as I am concerned.

I am aware you are using 6 instances belonging to the 0.015% of cases of missing children which were the result of stranger abduction.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: slartibartfast on October 17, 2018, 01:55:03 PM
Slarti has a list as long as your arm of fallacies, one for every post made by a supporter it seems, it’s just a forum technique designed to shut your opponent up.

It is used to point out where posters are using fallacious arguments.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Brietta on October 17, 2018, 01:59:23 PM
I am aware you are using 6 instances belonging to the 0.015% of cases of missing children which were the result of stranger abduction.

Then why not say that in your post instead of using gobbledegook - unless it was as a diversionary tactic?
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: jassi on October 17, 2018, 02:02:22 PM
The problem with your opinion is that no one can actually give a theory of how the McCann's managed to cover up Madeleine's disappearance and still go for dinner,  behaving normally.

I don't need to.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 17, 2018, 02:02:51 PM
It is used to point out where posters are using fallacious arguments.
Correction:  it is used by you to point out what you think are fallacious arguments made by supporters. 
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 17, 2018, 02:03:44 PM
I don't need to.
Correction: you can't. 
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: slartibartfast on October 17, 2018, 02:04:09 PM
Then why not say that in your post instead of using gobbledegook - unless it was as a diversionary tactic?

The use of the word gobbledygook to describe an accurate description of what you were doing is a diversionary tactic.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 17, 2018, 02:07:39 PM
The use of the word gobbledygook to describe an accurate description of what you were doing is a diversionary tactic.
I demand that you back up your post to explain what is fallacious about the following two sentences:

Sarah Jayne Harper ... Holly and Jessica ... James Bulger ... Sarah Payne ... Moira Anderson ... etc

There is a very long and tragic list of children abducted by strangers in which 'statistics' count for nothing ... every missing child case must be considered on the evidence.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 17, 2018, 02:12:58 PM
https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/crime/killer-of-leeds-schoolgirl-sarah-harper-is-unmasked-in-new-murder-trial-1-3851327
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soham_murders
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_James_Bulger
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Sarah_Payne
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/16031487.credible-witness-emerges-in-moira-anderson-mystery/

The content of your post is a mystery to me but it seems you are unaware of some of the most high profile British missing children who were subsequently found to have been abducted by strangers.

The only stranger abduction that does indeed have a Texas connection is that of Isabel Celis which is where the little girl or her body was taken across State lines and found in Texas. https://edition.cnn.com/2017/03/31/us/arizona-isabel-celis-remains-found/index.html   
That is is the only one I can think of at the moment.

But no doubt you know what your post is all about ... as I've already said ... you most certainly have not made it clear as far as I am concerned.

Reference the Soham murders.
Here is a parallel for you.
"Cambridgeshire Police said they feared the woman who reported seeing two girls fitting Holly and Jessica's description in a village near Ely, 12 hours after their disappearance on Sunday, was mistaken."
The woman was subsequently "done" for wasting police time.
For those of you not familiar with The Fen, the village, Little Thetford/Streatham is about fifteen klicks (eight or nine miles) NW of Soham.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: jassi on October 17, 2018, 02:22:36 PM
Correction: you can't.

I don't need to. I've no interest in  persuading anyone of anything.

I leave that role to supporters desperate to push the McCann abduction theory for all its worth
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 17, 2018, 02:31:36 PM
I don't need to. I've no interest in  persuading anyone of anything.

I leave that role to supporters desperate to push the McCann abduction theory for all its worth
See I find this odd, the fact that people seem to have a very firm conviction about something yet are completely incapable of explaining how their belief is actually possible within the constraints of the known facts, even to themselves.  No doubt you will claim to have a perfectly plausible and coherent theory that you prefer not to divulge.  Yeah, right!
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on October 17, 2018, 02:54:53 PM
See I find this odd, the fact that people seem to have a very firm conviction about something yet are completely incapable of explaining how their belief is actually possible within the constraints of the known facts, even to themselves.  No doubt you will claim to have a perfectly plausible and coherent theory that you prefer not to divulge.  Yeah, right!
Are you overlooking the wheelie bins?  How remiss!
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: jassi on October 17, 2018, 03:11:02 PM
See I find this odd, the fact that people seem to have a very firm conviction about something yet are completely incapable of explaining how their belief is actually possible within the constraints of the known facts, even to themselves.  No doubt you will claim to have a perfectly plausible and coherent theory that you prefer not to divulge.  Yeah, right!

You see, this the difference between me and supporters in general. I feel no need to provide a theory or explanation, or even try to rubbish other's ideas, whereas I get the impression that supporters are desperate to push their ideas - as if it is going to make a difference.

Real detectives are involved in this case so I'm happy to let them get on with it and when THEY have proved me wrong, then I'll reconsider.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 17, 2018, 03:24:10 PM
You see, this the difference between me and supporters in general. I feel no need to provide a theory or explanation, or even try to rubbish other's ideas, whereas I get the impression that supporters are desperate to push their ideas - as if it is going to make a difference.

Real detectives are involved in this case so I'm happy to let them get on with it and when THEY have proved me wrong, then I'll reconsider.
Of course it's not going to make any difference, I just find it interesting that some people seem quite convinced of something which actually would make little sense if they were to actually try and provide a theory or explanation for it.   
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: jassi on October 17, 2018, 03:32:20 PM
Of course it's not going to make any difference, I just find it interesting that some people seem quite convinced of something which actually would make little sense if they were to actually try and provide a theory or explanation for it.

Fine - you stick with your interesting thought.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Brietta on October 17, 2018, 04:51:13 PM
The use of the word gobbledygook to describe an accurate description of what you were doing is a diversionary tactic.

Perhaps sticking to the thread topic of the PJ misdirection of Madeleine's case by basing their investigation on speculation of her death without supporting evidence might help you with that.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Brietta on October 17, 2018, 04:54:27 PM
Reference the Soham murders.
Here is a parallel for you.
"Cambridgeshire Police said they feared the woman who reported seeing two girls fitting Holly and Jessica's description in a village near Ely, 12 hours after their disappearance on Sunday, was mistaken."
The woman was subsequently "done" for wasting police time.
For those of you not familiar with The Fen, the village, Little Thetford/Streatham is about fifteen klicks (eight or nine miles) NW of Soham.

Was she really 'done' if she made a mistaken identification and not a malicious one?  Do you have a cite for that?
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 17, 2018, 04:55:46 PM
Perhaps sticking to the thread topic of the PJ misdirection of Madeleine's case by basing their investigation on speculation of her death without supporting evidence might help you with that.


That seems to be at variance with the archiving documents.... *%87
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 17, 2018, 05:00:29 PM
Critical thinking? I don't think you'd recognise critical thinking if it sneaked up and bit you on the bum.
On the contrary, I am forever being bitten on the bum by Critical Thinking (slightly annoying habit admittedly)and never fail to recognise his smiling face and big gnashers.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 17, 2018, 05:07:08 PM
Of course it's not going to make any difference, I just find it interesting that some people seem quite convinced of something which actually would make little sense if they were to actually try and provide a theory or explanation for it.

So just for the record what in your considered opinion are the pinch points that conclusively preclude parental involvement?. Always being cognisant of the statements by Leicestershire ACC and the Portuguese Supreme Court.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Brietta on October 17, 2018, 05:07:50 PM


That seems to be at variance with the archiving documents.... *%87

What about the 'half time score' document? covering the early days ... not the 'final result' document resulting from a competent investigation..
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Brietta on October 17, 2018, 05:14:43 PM
So just for the record what in your considered opinion are the pinch points that conclusively preclude parental involvement?. Always being cognisant of the statements by Leicestershire ACC and the Portuguese Supreme Court.

Was she really 'done' if she made a mistaken identification and not a malicious one?  Do you have a cite for that?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10257.msg496434#msg496434


If you must interject my posts ... please be able to provide cites when requested 🤪
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 17, 2018, 05:30:52 PM
Was she really 'done' if she made a mistaken identification and not a malicious one?  Do you have a cite for that?

It turned out to be "romancing"!
No! I don't care if the 20 or so active members on here believe me or not, it happened. Neither do I have a cite for the women of Littleport beating up the press gang to free a local farm labourer but that happened too!
You were the one who raised the case like you were expert on it I am surprised you are unaware of it.
It wasn't a "mistake" it was deliberate hence being "done".
Delete the posts if you like it will not change what happened.... ?{)(**
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 17, 2018, 05:45:09 PM
So just for the record what in your considered opinion are the pinch points that conclusively preclude parental involvement?. Always being cognisant of the statements by Leicestershire ACC and the Portuguese Supreme Court.

I thought you claimed to know something about the law then you quote those two... Are those two points, supposed in someway to imply guilt... What absolute rubbish... Both statements wouldn't be allowed anywhere near the scales of justice...
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 17, 2018, 07:33:40 PM
1)I thought you claimed to know something about the law then you quote those two... 2)Are those two points, supposed in someway to imply guilt... What absolute rubbish... 3)Both statements wouldn't be allowed anywhere near the scales of justice...

1) Where did I claim that? and to which branch of the law do you refer?.
2) No
3) Where did I say or even imply they would be? 

So maybe you would like to answer the question I posed to VertigoSwirl?
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 17, 2018, 07:56:38 PM
1) Where did I claim that? and to which branch of the law do you refer?.
2) No
3) Where did I say or even imply they would be? 

So maybe you would like to answer the question I posed to VertigoSwirl?

The question  where you are basically asking for proof of innocence.   ...that's an insult to justice too
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 17, 2018, 08:06:11 PM
Was she really 'done' if she made a mistaken identification and not a malicious one?  Do you have a cite for that?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10257.msg496434#msg496434


If you must interject my posts ... please be able to provide cites when requested 🤪
The woman’s name was Tina-Marie Earley and there is no cite on the internet that I can find of her being prosecuted for wasting police time.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 17, 2018, 08:34:38 PM
The question  where you are basically asking for proof of innocence.   ...that's an insult to justice too


No such thing old stick.
I requested that VS tell us what in his/her opinion are the pinch points which preclude parental involvement.
He/she declined to do so.
I asked you the same question. You have declined to do so.
Options:
1)Neither of you have a clue or
2)  you are having a collective bottle job...frippeny bit, 'arf crown, man'ole cover.
It is uncharacteristic for there to be such reticence to be displayed.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Robittybob1 on October 17, 2018, 08:55:52 PM
I don't need to.
No one can Jassi.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Davel on October 17, 2018, 09:07:09 PM


No such thing old stick.
I requested that VS tell us what in his/her opinion are the pinch points which preclude parental involvement.
He/she declined to do so.
I asked you the same question. You have declined to do so.
Options:
1)Neither of you have a clue or
2)  you are having a collective bottle job...frippeny bit, 'arf crown, man'ole cover.
It is uncharacteristic for there to be such reticence to be displayed.

You are, wrong again read back.... You didn't say preclude you said conclusively preclude..... Which equates to proof of innocence.... There are lots of facts that preclude
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 17, 2018, 10:41:49 PM


No such thing old stick.
I requested that VS tell us what in his/her opinion are the pinch points which preclude parental involvement.
He/she declined to do so.
I asked you the same question. You have declined to do so.
Options:
1)Neither of you have a clue or
2)  you are having a collective bottle job...frippeny bit, 'arf crown, man'ole cover.
It is uncharacteristic for there to be such reticence to be displayed.
There is one other option which I have spelt out and which you have failed to add to your little list.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: slartibartfast on October 18, 2018, 07:27:36 AM
Perhaps sticking to the thread topic of the PJ misdirection of Madeleine's case by basing their investigation on speculation of her death without supporting evidence might help you with that.

As the subject is “were the PJ right” my posts were on topic.
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 18, 2018, 01:14:21 PM
The woman’s name was Tina-Marie Earley and there is no cite on the internet that I can find of her being prosecuted for wasting police time.

So?
That is scarcely definitive is it ? You can't find it so it didn't happen ?



Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on October 18, 2018, 06:09:08 PM
So?
That is scarcely definitive is it ? You can't find it so it didn't happen ?
Merely an observation old stick.  Odd that her name is there for her sighting, from news reports in 2002, but not there for her prosecution and punishment, whenever that allegedly occurred - did it not make the news? 
Title: Re: Was the PJ right to decide that Madeleine had died so early on?
Post by: misty on October 18, 2018, 11:53:22 PM
Merely an observation old stick.  Odd that her name is there for her sighting, from news reports in 2002, but not there for her prosecution and punishment, whenever that allegedly occurred - did it not make the news?

I haven't found any Earley info yet but here's someone who did waste police time in the same case.
https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/youd-soham-hoaxer-convicted-policeman--9550482