UK Justice Forum

Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: G-Unit on January 07, 2019, 09:11:34 AM

Title: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 07, 2019, 09:11:34 AM
Having watched the first episode of Manhunt Sutton comes across as a calm, quiet and amenable character, but there are moments when his determination shows. It was interesting to see how many things a lead detective has to juggle as an investigation progresses; superiors, inferiors, the public. At the same time he/she has to move things along in the right direction.

One interesting snippet was Sutton's wife suggesting he used a stand alone database rather than HOLMES. He did, and admitted that it was quicker, whatever that meant.

The UK police rely heavily on CCTV and mobile phone technology. In this case it helps them considerably. Without it their jobs are much harder. I thought of the Moors murders which were only solved by an informer coming forward because there was no CCTV in those days allowing tracking of the victims and perpetrators.

The Madeleine McCann case offered little in the way of technological evidence so the UK police's expertise in that area hasn't helped. When OG's remit said they were going to investigate the case as if it happened in the UK, they seem to have thought that modern methods would help, but without technological evidence that wasn't possible. 

67

Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on January 07, 2019, 10:05:20 AM
Having watched the first episode of Manhunt Sutton comes across as a calm, quiet and amenable character, but there are moments when his determination shows. It was interesting to see how many things a lead detective has to juggle as an investigation progresses; superiors, inferiors, the public. At the same time he/she has to move things along in the right direction.

One interesting snippet was Sutton's wife suggesting he used a stand alone database rather than HOLMES. He did, and admitted that it was quicker, whatever that meant.

The UK police rely heavily on CCTV and mobile phone technology. In this case it helps them considerably. Without it their jobs are much harder. I thought of the Moors murders which were only solved by an informer coming forward because there was no CCTV in those days allowing tracking of the victims and perpetrators.

The Madeleine McCann case offered little in the way of technological evidence so the UK police's expertise in that area hasn't helped. When OG's remit said they were going to investigate the case as if it happened in the UK, they seem to have thought that modern methods would help, but without technological evidence that wasn't possible.


I hate the thought of being watched with a passion,but my view can easily be swayed in the way it was used in the investigation by Suttons team,looking as if they have identified a suspects van at the end,purely through cameras.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on January 07, 2019, 10:34:54 AM
Having watched the first episode of Manhunt Sutton comes across as a calm, quiet and amenable character, but there are moments when his determination shows. It was interesting to see how many things a lead detective has to juggle as an investigation progresses; superiors, inferiors, the public. At the same time he/she has to move things along in the right direction.

One interesting snippet was Sutton's wife suggesting he used a stand alone database rather than HOLMES. He did, and admitted that it was quicker, whatever that meant.

The UK police rely heavily on CCTV and mobile phone technology. In this case it helps them considerably. Without it their jobs are much harder. I thought of the Moors murders which were only solved by an informer coming forward because there was no CCTV in those days allowing tracking of the victims and perpetrators.

The Madeleine McCann case offered little in the way of technological evidence so the UK police's expertise in that area hasn't helped. When OG's remit said they were going to investigate the case as if it happened in the UK, they seem to have thought that modern methods would help, but without technological evidence that wasn't possible.

The Scotland Yard investigation into Madeleine's disappearance has not yet reached conclusion therefore no judgement can be made on how the case has been progressed particularly as the book of its exploits isn't with the printers yet.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 07, 2019, 10:49:41 AM

I hate the thought of being watched with a passion,but my view can easily be swayed in the way it was used in the investigation by Suttons team,looking as if they have identified a suspects van at the end,purely through cameras.

That was one of the moments when he showed his metal by insisting on getting that footage before it was lost. He also threw manpower at reviewing it despite others expressing doubts. Another was when he insisted on continuing to search the river. Did you notice him being congratulated on his ability to bullshit? It made me think about some of the things said be Redwood and Rowley lol.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 07, 2019, 10:52:48 AM
The Scotland Yard investigation into Madeleine's disappearance has not yet reached conclusion therefore no judgement can be made on how the case has been progressed particularly as the book of its exploits isn't with the printers yet.

It's a fact that they have had no help from CCTV footage. It's also a fact that CCTV figures heavily in UK policing these days.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on January 07, 2019, 10:53:38 AM
That was one of the moments when he showed his metal by insisting on getting that footage before it was lost. He also threw manpower at reviewing it despite others expressing doubts. Another was when he insisted on continuing to search the river. Did you notice him being congratulated on his ability to bullshit? It made me think about some of the things said be Redwood and Rowley lol.


Gave a reasoned insight to the working's of an investigation.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 07, 2019, 11:07:23 AM

Gave a reasoned insight to the working's of an investigation.

Martin Clunes is on ITV's This Morning shortly. He might have something interesting to say as he worked closely with Sutton.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on January 07, 2019, 11:09:26 AM
That was one of the moments when he showed his metal by insisting on getting that footage before it was lost. He also threw manpower at reviewing it despite others expressing doubts. Another was when he insisted on continuing to search the river. Did you notice him being congratulated on his ability to bullshit? It made me think about some of the things said be Redwood and Rowley lol.
Pity Amaral didn't manage that in Luz ... view from 1:00 ... when timings could have been established not only of the man seen by the Smiths but of their return to their apartment.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 07, 2019, 11:29:35 AM
Pity Amaral didn't manage that in Luz ... view from 1:00 ... when timings could have been established not only of the man seen by the Smiths but of their return to their apartment.

Perhaps because the PJ didn't have the reliance on CCTV that the UK police have developed.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 07, 2019, 11:35:56 AM
Clunes and Sutton. Sutton reminding us that he's written a book about it.. It seems the point was to try to show how the police really work rather than glamourising it as many dramas do. Sutton emphasised the importance of teamwork and that the SIO needs to get the best from the team.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on January 07, 2019, 11:42:32 AM
Pity Amaral didn't manage that in Luz ... view from 1:00 ... when timings could have been established not only of the man seen by the Smiths but of their return to their apartment.


Yep,smithman struck out lucky with that.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on January 07, 2019, 11:48:35 AM
Perhaps because the PJ didn't have the reliance on CCTV that the UK police have developed.

The investigation failed to find and check one of the very few CCTV cameras situated in the vicinity of a missing child event and the senior investigating officer is on record as indicating it was a failure.  In my opinion there is no 'perhaps' about it 'incompetence' certainly.  The camera was located in an unmissable position yet it was overlooked.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on January 07, 2019, 11:49:58 AM

Yep,smithman struck out lucky with that.

Do you think so?  I really don't.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 07, 2019, 12:00:14 PM
The investigation failed to find and check one of the very few CCTV cameras situated in the vicinity of a missing child event and the senior investigating officer is on record as indicating it was a failure.  In my opinion there is no 'perhaps' about it 'incompetence' certainly.  The camera was located in an unmissable position yet it was overlooked.

I have offered an explanation but you are determined to see it as a failure, despite not knowing if it would have shown anything of use or not. The point I was making was that the McCann case had more in common with UK police investigations in years gone by. It had nothing in common with those investigations as they are carried out today. Therefore investigating it as if it had happened in the UK was impossible without adding 'years ago'.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on January 07, 2019, 12:02:59 PM
Clunes and Sutton. Sutton reminding us that he's written a book about it.. It seems the point was to try to show how the police really work rather than glamourising it as many dramas do. Sutton emphasised the importance of teamwork and that the SIO needs to get the best from the team.

I'm not sure if you and I watched the same film.  I must admit I was a bit amazed at the emphasis on Sutton's inexperience which made me wonder a bit about prior and subsequent achievements.
The size of the team was impressive enabling the presence of surveillance technology to be fully investigated to prove its worth ... and only thinking outside the box enabled the connection to Milly Dowler three years down the line making one wonder what Bellfield and cohorts might be involved in that we'll never know about.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on January 07, 2019, 12:09:39 PM
I have offered an explanation but you are determined to see it as a failure, despite not knowing if it would have shown anything of use or not. The point I was making was that the McCann case had more in common with UK police investigations in years gone by. It had nothing in common with those investigations as they are carried out today. Therefore investigating it as if it had happened in the UK was impossible without adding 'years ago'.

There is little which connects the conduct of Madeleine's case with even the Gene Hunt era in British policing and if you don't think failure to check one of the very few CCTV cameras in Luz is an investigative failure that is your prerogative.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 07, 2019, 12:17:17 PM
I didn't watch the programme but read a review.... Which said Sutton was given Belfields name by a member of the public... I wonder how many crimes are solved due to information from the public.... Something that is unlikely ti happen in Portugal due to the perception of the public
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on January 07, 2019, 12:27:57 PM
I didn't watch the programme but read a review.... Which sain Sutton was given Belfields name by a member of the public... I wonder how many crimes are solved due to information from the public.... Something that is unlikely ti happen in Portugal due to the perception of the public

Such was the distrust of the police recognised by Jenny Murat who set up her information stall to combat it.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 07, 2019, 05:25:21 PM
Having watched the first episode of Manhunt Sutton comes across as a calm, quiet and amenable character, but there are moments when his determination shows. It was interesting to see how many things a lead detective has to juggle as an investigation progresses; superiors, inferiors, the public. At the same time he/she has to move things along in the right direction.

One interesting snippet was Sutton's wife suggesting he used a stand alone database rather than HOLMES. He did, and admitted that it was quicker, whatever that meant.

The UK police rely heavily on CCTV and mobile phone technology. In this case it helps them considerably. Without it their jobs are much harder. I thought of the Moors murders which were only solved by an informer coming forward because there was no CCTV in those days allowing tracking of the victims and perpetrators.

The Madeleine McCann case offered little in the way of technological evidence so the UK police's expertise in that area hasn't helped. When OG's remit said they were going to investigate the case as if it happened in the UK, they seem to have thought that modern methods would help, but without technological evidence that wasn't possible.
My thoughts on watching the first episode (with the caveat that it is not a documentary and therefore subject to artistic license) were: if only Colin Sutton had been in charge of the investigation in Pdl in the very beginning, he might have secured some valuable cctv footage that the PJ never thought to retrieve until it was too late.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 07, 2019, 05:27:16 PM
Clunes and Sutton. Sutton reminding us that he's written a book about it.. It seems the point was to try to show how the police really work rather than glamourising it as many dramas do. Sutton emphasised the importance of teamwork and that the SIO needs to get the best from the team.
Yes, it was quite unglamorous and therefore also quite dull as an episode, IMO.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 07, 2019, 05:29:11 PM
I'm not sure if you and I watched the same film.  I must admit I was a bit amazed at the emphasis on Sutton's inexperience which made me wonder a bit about prior and subsequent achievements.
The size of the team was impressive enabling the presence of surveillance technology to be fully investigated to prove its worth ... and only thinking outside the box enabled the connection to Milly Dowler three years down the line making one wonder what Bellfield and cohorts might be involved in that we'll never know about.
Yes Sutton was open to the possibility of a link to other crimes in the area, unlike the PJ who seemed unwilling to countenance it at all, re: the MM case.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 07, 2019, 09:44:57 PM
I didn't watch the programme but read a review.... Which said Sutton was given Belfields name by a member of the public... I wonder how many crimes are solved due to information from the public.... Something that is unlikely ti happen in Portugal due to the perception of the public

A statement was given by one of Bellfield's ex'. It was mentioned to Sutton by the PC who took the statement. He was already homing in on Bellfield's van, but the statement gave him a name and a connection to the murder weapon too.

Now they can see that Bellfield moved around and lived near where other murders took place. He was a 15 second walk from where Milly Dowler was last seen, for example.

The case was a 'career changer'. Succeed and fly, fail and fall by the wayside. At one point Sutton's wife referred to it as a possible poisoned chalice. I think the McCann case may have been Redwood;s chalice.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 07, 2019, 09:51:53 PM
A statement was given by one of Bellfield's ex'. It was mentioned to Sutton by the PC who took the statement. He was already homing in on Bellfield's van, but the statement gave him a name and a connection to the murder weapon too.

Now they can see that Bellfield moved around and lived near where other murders took place. He was a 15 second walk from where Milly Dowler was last seen, for example.

The case was a 'career changer'. Succeed and fly, fail and fall by the wayside. At one point Sutton's wife referred to it as a possible poisoned chalice. I think the McCann case may have been Redwood;s chalice.

More like Sutton was handed belfield on a, plate... They were not homing in on belfields vsn... They hadn't got a clue who owned the van... The link to the van was made after Sutton had been given belfields name
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 07, 2019, 09:52:24 PM
A statement was given by one of Bellfield's ex'. It was mentioned to Sutton by the PC who took the statement. He was already homing in on Bellfield's van, but the statement gave him a name and a connection to the murder weapon too.

Now they can see that Bellfield moved around and lived near where other murders took place. He was a 15 second walk from where Milly Dowler was last seen, for example.

The case was a 'career changer'. Succeed and fly, fail and fall by the wayside. At one point Sutton's wife referred to it as a possible poisoned chalice. I think the McCann case may have been Redwood;s chalice.


I thought it was very interesting. The guy lead a team who caught a seriel killer. Milly Dowlers parents were very greatful after the behaviousr of thier local police 'investigation'.

 Let us slag him off on behalf of the McCANNS supporters who can't stand him because he  perhaps doesn't believe the McCanns story... oh err.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 07, 2019, 10:06:42 PM

I thought it was very interesting. The guy lead a team who caught a seriel killer. Milly Dowlers parents were very greatful after the behaviousr of thier local police 'investigation'.

 Let us slag him off on behalf of the McCANNS supporters who can't stand him because he  perhaps doesn't believe the McCanns story... oh err.

It's fascinating. Now the press have put their oar in and a deal has had to be made with the News of the World because they threatened to break the story before Sutton's team were ready to move in on Bellfield. Apparently there was a leak from Sutton's team. Oh err indeed.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 09, 2019, 07:39:42 AM
If they offered the police the tapes and they didn’t even bother to look at them that would be even worse.

That, it seems, is what happened in the Bellfield case. CCTV footage collected during a previous investigation hadn't been viewed. If it had, Bellfield could have been caught before he killed Amelie Delagrange and Milly Dowler.

Sutton went to France to apologise in person to Amelie's parents, although the mistake wasn't made by his team. He came across as the kind of police officer we need.

This drama demonstrated just how difficult it can be to get the right evidence to prosecute people. Even though I knew how it ended, I felt the tension as Sutton and his team waited for the CPS to decide whether they had enough to charge Bellfield. Clunes was able to convey Sutton's feeling of satisfaction during his completely unemotional reading out of the charge to Bellfield.

What did I learn? All police forces make mistakes, but like others who provide front line services, their mistakes can be a matter of life and death. Leading a murder squad is a very difficult job and it's made harder by superiors, team members, other forces and the press. It was mostly evidence found by Sutton's team which resulted in Bellfield being convicted of Milly Dowler's murder, but Surrey police were reluctant to accept it at first. HOLMES is slow and unwieldy. On the advice of his wife Sutton's team used a stand alone database for speed when searching for information.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on January 09, 2019, 08:15:41 AM

It was interesting.  And the mistake was so easily made.  Before and after midnight and a Police Woman going on holiday.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 09, 2019, 08:22:31 AM
That, it seems, is what happened in the Bellfield case. CCTV footage collected during a previous investigation hadn't been viewed. If it had, Bellfield could have been caught before he killed Amelie Delagrange and Milly Dowler.

Sutton went to France to apologise in person to Amelie's parents, although the mistake wasn't made by his team. He came across as the kind of police officer we need.

This drama demonstrated just how difficult it can be to get the right evidence to prosecute people. Even though I knew how it ended, I felt the tension as Sutton and his team waited for the CPS to decide whether they had enough to charge Bellfield. Clunes was able to convey Sutton's feeling of satisfaction during his completely unemotional reading out of the charge to Bellfield.

What did I learn? All police forces make mistakes, but like others who provide front line services, their mistakes can be a matter of life and death. Leading a murder squad is a very difficult job and it's made harder by superiors, team members, other forces and the press. It was mostly evidence found by Sutton's team which resulted in Bellfield being convicted of Milly Dowler's murder, but Surrey police were reluctant to accept it at first. HOLMES is slow and unwieldy. On the advice of his wife Sutton's team used a stand alone database for speed when searching for information.
All valid points, however if Bellfield’s girlfriend hadn’t come forward and given a statement it’s highlt likely that the case would have taken much longer to solve which would no doubt have incurred no end of criticism from the general public about how long the police were taking, how incompetent they were and what a waste of money the whole thing was, and what about all the other missing or murdered people.  Actually no it wouldn’t because the McCanns weren’t involved in this one, so no objects of hate for the public to latch on to.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 09, 2019, 08:51:24 AM
All valid points, however if Bellfield’s girlfriend hadn’t come forward and given a statement it’s highlt likely that the case would have taken much longer to solve which would no doubt have incurred no end of criticism from the general public about how long the police were taking, how incompetent they were and what a waste of money the whole thing was, and what about all the other missing or murdered people.  Actually no it wouldn’t because the McCanns weren’t involved in this one, so no objects of hate for the public to latch on to.

Are you finally acknowledging how unacceptable and unfair the vicious and obsessive criticism of the Policia Judiciaria has been?  Well done you, if so.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 09, 2019, 08:54:03 AM
Are you finally acknowledging how unacceptable and unfair the vicious and obsessive criticism of the Policia Judiciaria has been?  Well done you, if so.
No I don’t think they, or any other police force are above criticism, especially not those who throw in the towel and release their files, revealing just how incompetent they were imo. 

My point was aimed at those currently involved in slagging off the Met about how long they are taking without any apparent results.  If it transpires that all the Met was doing in the last five years was shuffling paper about and going to Portugal to play golf then obviously they deserve every criticism coming to them.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 09, 2019, 09:00:46 AM
Are you finally acknowledging how unacceptable and unfair the vicious and obsessive criticism of the Policia Judiciaria has been?  Well done you, if so.

I haven't seen any obsessive or vicious criticism of the PJ... I think you are, wrong... I have, seen vicious, and obsessive criticism of the parents
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 09, 2019, 09:03:38 AM
I would draw a parallel between the PJ in the inital investigation into Madeleine’s disappearance with the Surrey Police in the Milly Dowler investigation.  Convinced they had their man and not interested in any other evidence that pointed elsewhere.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 09, 2019, 09:07:13 AM
I would draw a parallel between the PJ in the inital investigation into Madeleine’s disappearance with the Surrey Police in the Milly Dowler investigation.  Convinced they had their man and not interested in any other evidence that pointed elsewhere.

And similar to criticism of the Colin Stagg fiasco... Nothing obsessive or vicious....just pointing out the mistakes the OJ made
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 09, 2019, 09:24:50 AM
No I don’t think they, or any other police force are above criticism, especially not those who throw in the towel and release their files, revealing just how incompetent they were imo. 

My point was aimed at those currently involved in slagging off the Met about how long they are taking without any apparent results.  If it transpires that all the Met was doing in the last five years was shuffling paper about and going to Portugal to play golf then obviously they deserve every criticism coming to them.

Perhaps the McCanns, their supporters and the UK media should have remained silent during the time the Policia Judiciaria were carrying out their investigations.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 09, 2019, 09:32:17 AM
Perhaps the McCanns, their supporters and the UK media should have remained silent during the time the Policia Judiciaria were carrying out their investigations.
Perhaps, though I would say it was totally forgiveable in the McCanns’ case in fact kudos for their admirable restraint in the circs, I would have been a lot more vocal. 
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 09, 2019, 09:41:40 AM
It would be useful if the Colin Sutton material was split off into its own thread.  It's the nearest we've had so far to a comparative, contemporaneous case in the UK.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 09, 2019, 09:53:33 AM
It would be useful if the Colin Sutton material was split off into its own thread.  It's the nearest we've had so far to a comparative, contemporaneous case in the UK.

I agree. Because the writer worked so closely with Sutton, who still had his notes on the case it's a very useful account of how an investigation progresses in the UK. His book on the subject is released tomorrow;

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Manhunt-Brought-Serial-Bellfield-Justice/dp/1786065711
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 09, 2019, 09:56:19 AM
Perhaps, though I would say it was totally forgiveable in the McCanns’ case in fact kudos for their admirable restraint in the circs, I would have been a lot more vocal.

So it's OK for the McCanns to criticise the PJ before they even began their investigation but not for people to criticise OG until they finish theirs? That sounds like double standards to me.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 09, 2019, 09:58:03 AM
Perhaps the McCanns, their supporters and the UK media should have remained silent during the time the Policia Judiciaria were carrying out their investigations.

Why... When we knew the mistakes they were making... Their incorrect belief that maddies death in the, apartment was confirmed... This was a massive error
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 09, 2019, 09:59:20 AM
So it's OK for the McCanns to criticise the PJ before they even began their investigation but not for people to criticise OG until they finish theirs? That sounds like double standards to me.

It's OK for everyone  to criticise everything based on evidence... We have ni idea what grange have found and what they are unvestigating
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 09, 2019, 10:06:25 AM
So it's OK for the McCanns to criticise the PJ before they even began their investigation but not for people to criticise OG until they finish theirs? That sounds like double standards to me.
Of course it is, they were there experiencing the incompetence first hand. 
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 09, 2019, 10:14:00 AM
I wonder how useful people would have found this dramatization if Sutton hadn’t recently inveigled his way into the Anti McCann camp on twitter and become a bit of a champion of the sceptic cause??
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Faithlilly on January 09, 2019, 10:17:05 AM
Perhaps the McCanns, their supporters and the UK media should have remained silent during the time the Policia Judiciaria were carrying out their investigations.

When you saw how the NOTW’s threat to publish information about the investigation before the suspect’s arrest could have skewed the whole investigation you can see what the PJ were up against with half the world’s media camped on their doorstep, looking for copy.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 09, 2019, 10:22:21 AM
When you saw how the NOTW’s threat to publish information about the investigation before the suspect’s arrest could have skewed the whole investigation you can see what the PJ were up against with half the world’s media camped on their doorstep, looking for copy.
And yet IMO the PJ were utterly complicit in leaking to the media, shame on them!
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on January 09, 2019, 10:45:57 AM
It would be useful if the Colin Sutton material was split off into its own thread.  It's the nearest we've had so far to a comparative, contemporaneous case in the UK.

You really have lost me there ... I cannot see any similarity between Madeleine McCann's case and the content of the film ... the nearest comparison in MO I think is with the Yorkshire Ripper.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 09, 2019, 11:03:33 AM
You really have lost me there ... I cannot see any similarity between Madeleine McCann's case and the content of the film ... the nearest comparison in MO I think is with the Yorkshire Ripper.

It's about the tools, techniques, procedure and organisation used by 'Britain's finest", shortly before Madeleine disappeared.

It puts the capability of a large team of UK detectives into direct comparison with the PJ.

And @VS, it would be relevant whatever Sutton has done recently.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 09, 2019, 11:05:20 AM
It's about the tools, techniques, procedure and organisation used by 'Britain's finest", shortly before Madeleine disappeared.

It puts the capability of a large team of UK detectives into direct comparison with the PJ.

And @VS, it would be relevant whatever Sutton has done recently.
How do the Met compare with the PJ then?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 09, 2019, 11:26:01 AM
Of course it is, they were there experiencing the incompetence first hand.

Perceived incompetence, them not being experts in police procedures in either Portugal or the UK. No police force accepts the opinion of a civilian as to what crime has been committed, and that's all the McCanns were able to offer.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 09, 2019, 11:31:34 AM
When you saw how the NOTW’s threat to publish information about the investigation before the suspect’s arrest could have skewed the whole investigation you can see what the PJ were up against with half the world’s media camped on their doorstep, looking for copy.

That reminded me of the police taking the BBC with them when they raided a famous pop star's home.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 09, 2019, 11:35:21 AM
Perceived incompetence, them not being experts in police procedures in either Portugal or the UK. No police force accepts the opinion of a civilian as to what crime has been committed, and that's all the McCanns were able to offer.
So you don't agree that there was any incompetence on the part of the PJ at any point of the initial investigation?  Furthermore do you think that police forces the world over should be exempt from criticism by the general public because the general public tends not to be experts in police procedure?  How about Stephen Lawrence's mother?  Was she out of order to criticise the Met, not being an expert and all? 
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 09, 2019, 11:44:39 AM
It's about the tools, techniques, procedure and organisation used by 'Britain's finest", shortly before Madeleine disappeared.

It puts the capability of a large team of UK detectives into direct comparison with the PJ.

And @VS, it would be relevant whatever Sutton has done recently.

The Met had the advantage of a shared language, HOLMES and CCTV footage. I don't think their procedures or organisation were superior to those of the PJ though.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 09, 2019, 11:51:56 AM
The Met had the advantage of a shared language, HOLMES and CCTV footage. I don't think their procedures or organisation were superior to those of the PJ though.
Upon what do you base that belief?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 09, 2019, 11:56:31 AM
So you don't agree that there was any incompetence on the part of the PJ at any point of the initial investigation?  Furthermore do you think that police forces the world over should be exempt from criticism by the general public because the general public tends not to be experts in police procedure?  How about Stephen Lawrence's mother?  Was she out of order to criticise the Met, not being an expert and all?

You seem to be saying that criticism is justified only if you agree with those doing it. Do you agree with those who have criticised Redwood's replacement of Tannerman with Crecheman?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 09, 2019, 12:03:15 PM
You seem to be saying that criticism is justified only if you agree with those doing it. Do you agree with those who have criticised Redwood's replacement of Tannerman with Crecheman?
I agree with criticism when the full facts are known, or when one has first hand experience of the incompetence and has been directly affected by it.  I don't have any criticism for Andy Redwood, so no I don't agree with it, why should I?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 09, 2019, 12:08:55 PM
Upon what do you base that belief?

On my reading of the PJ files, Amaral's book and watching Manhunt. The PJ have a national force, for example, which enables better cooperation. The UK police suffer, in my opinion, by having autonomous regional forces. The Surrey police resented the Met offering their help with the Dowler case.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 09, 2019, 12:13:38 PM
I found that particularly interesting given the demise of that Murdoch rag and some who worked at it. The Press have always had far too much power to influence events in this country with the current Brexit debacle being a current example.

Is it worth giving 'Manhunt' it's own thread John? I think Sutton's account of his investigation quite helpful as a comparison with the PJ's investigation of the McCann case. It's also enlightening as to how OG must have approached their investigative review.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 09, 2019, 12:14:09 PM
On my reading of the PJ files, Amaral's book and watching Manhunt. The PJ have a national force, for example, which enables better cooperation. The UK police suffer, in my opinion, by having autonomous regional forces. The Surrey police resented the Met offering their help with the Dowler case.

Do you think the, investigation into Maddie's disappearance suffered because the PJ thought they haf proof Maddie died in the apartment and was carried in the hire car.... Or do you think that was unimportant
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 09, 2019, 12:20:24 PM
I found that particularly interesting given the demise of that Murdoch rag and some who worked at it. The Press have always had far too much power to influence events in this country with the current Brexit debacle being a current example.

The fact that the Met couldn't stop the News of the World from printing a story concerning a live murder enquiry is worrying.
That's the price of a free press.  Or we could go down the Hacked Off route...
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 09, 2019, 12:21:36 PM
On my reading of the PJ files, Amaral's book and watching Manhunt. The PJ have a national force, for example, which enables better cooperation. The UK police suffer, in my opinion, by having autonomous regional forces. The Surrey police resented the Met offering their help with the Dowler case.
Do you not see any parallels between the attitude of the Surrey police and the PJ's initial investigation?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 09, 2019, 12:38:39 PM
Do you not see any parallels between the attitude of the Surrey police and the PJ's initial investigation?

It all comes down to justification in my opinion According to the drama Sutton didn't give Surrey police any reason to believe he went there as a know-all from The Met.

According to Gamble the UK police did give the PJ  the impression that they were the 'experts'. 
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 09, 2019, 12:49:23 PM
It all comes down to justification in my opinion According to the drama Sutton didn't give Surrey police any reason to believe he went there as a know-all from The Met.

According to Gamble the UK police did give the PJ  the impression that they were the 'experts'.
Well the reaction from the Surrey police in that drama certainly seems at odds with your opinion.  They didn't seem to like it one bit when he came strolling in from the Big Smoke telling them they had to put Bellfield in the frame.  so you can actually see no parallels at all between the PJ and the Surrey police?  OK, that tells me all I need to know.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 09, 2019, 12:55:11 PM
That's the price of a free press.  Or we could go down the Hacked Off route...

I don't want a press which thinks scuppering a murder investigation is acceptable. Neither do I want a police force whose members think leaking information to the press is acceptable.

Perhaps a law requiring journalists to disclose their sources (and evidence of what was said) would stop a lot of these problems? It would certainly be interesting.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 09, 2019, 12:59:29 PM
Well the reaction from the Surrey police in that drama certainly seems at odds with your opinion.  They didn't seem to like it one bit when he came strolling in from the Big Smoke telling them they had to put Bellfield in the frame.  so you can actually see no parallels at all between the PJ and the Surrey police?  OK, that tells me all I need to know.  Thanks.

I see you are agreeing with Surrey police. Did Sutton really go 'strolling in from the Big Smoke telling them they had to put Bellfield in the frame'? That wasn't my impression.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 09, 2019, 01:02:09 PM
I see you are agreeing with Surrey police. Did Sutton really go 'strolling in from the Big Smoke telling them they had to put Bellfield in the frame'? That wasn't my impression.
In what way do you think I am agreeing with the Surrey police?!  Why did the head honcho go ballistic at Sutton when he went to see them?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 09, 2019, 01:02:53 PM
I don't want a press which thinks scuppering a murder investigation is acceptable. Neither do I want a police force whose members think leaking information to the press is acceptable.

Perhaps a law requiring journalists to disclose their sources (and evidence of what was said) would stop a lot of these problems? It would certainly be interesting.
You cannot be serious?!!
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on January 09, 2019, 01:32:51 PM
I see you are agreeing with Surrey police. Did Sutton really go 'strolling in from the Big Smoke telling them they had to put Bellfield in the frame'? That wasn't my impression.

The Surrey Detective didn't half get shirty.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 09, 2019, 01:36:06 PM
The Surrey Detective didn't half get shirty.
Indeed.  He didn't seem to like Sutton stepping on his patch one bit.  Even Sutton's wife seemed to allude to this at one point in the drama, iirc.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: John on January 09, 2019, 01:57:41 PM
Following requests, I have created this new thread from posts which has been spun off from the 'Wandering Off Topic' thread. Hopefully most of the relevant posts are included.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 09, 2019, 02:08:55 PM
In what way do you think I am agreeing with the Surrey police?!  Why did the head honcho go ballistic at Sutton when he went to see them?

You seem to think it was  because of Sutton's attitude. I didn't see anything wrong with his attitude, did I miss something?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 09, 2019, 02:34:00 PM
I'm not sure if you and I watched the same film.  I must admit I was a bit amazed at the emphasis on Sutton's inexperience which made me wonder a bit about prior and subsequent achievements.
The size of the team was impressive enabling the presence of surveillance technology to be fully investigated to prove its worth ... and only thinking outside the box enabled the connection to Milly Dowler three years down the line making one wonder what Bellfield and cohorts might be involved in that we'll never know about.

Did you miss the bit at the beginning in that writing stuff that said:
"This DRAMA is BASED on a true story. Some names have been CHANGED......"
"Devised by Colin Sutton and A.N. Other......"
Draw your own conclusions.

If the bit about the News of The World were true it would remain a worry as despite the demise of NOTW The Sun and The Times, members of the the same empire, remain.

Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Admin on January 09, 2019, 02:39:17 PM
Did you miss the bit at the beginning in that writing stuff that said:
"This DRAMA is BASED on a true story. Some names have been CHANGED......"
"Devised by Colin Sutton and A.N. Other......"
Draw your own conclusions.

If the bit about the News of The World were true it would remain a worry as despite the demise of NOTW The Sun and The Times, members of the the same empire, remain.

I viewed the three-part drama with some concern initially but by the end I was actively seeking more.  Martin Clunes played Colin Sutton admirably so well done to him.  Troubling however was the jealousy between police forces which might well have resulted in a failed investigation.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 09, 2019, 02:49:34 PM
Did you miss the bit at the beginning in that writing stuff that said:
"This DRAMA is BASED on a true story. Some names have been CHANGED......"
"Devised by Colin Sutton and A.N. Other......"
Draw your own conclusions.

If the bit about the News of The World were true it would remain a worry as despite the demise of NOTW The Sun and The Times, members of the the same empire, remain.

Yes. DRAMA. based on a TRUE story.... Did Sutton's wife really advise him... Or was that a bit of DRAMA
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 09, 2019, 02:51:31 PM
I viewed the three-part drama with some concern initially but by the end I was actively seeking more.  Martin Clunes played Colin Sutton admirably so well done to him.  Troubling however was the jealousy between police forces which might well have resulted in a failed investigation.

I wonder how much jealosy there is between the PJ and Grange
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Faithlilly on January 09, 2019, 02:53:11 PM
Did you miss the bit at the beginning in that writing stuff that said:
"This DRAMA is BASED on a true story. Some names have been CHANGED......"
"Devised by Colin Sutton and A.N. Other......"
Draw your own conclusions.

If the bit about the News of The World were true it would remain a worry as despite the demise of NOTW The Sun and The Times, members of the the same empire, remain.

Was talking to an individual last week who had worked at the Times office some time ago. He met Murdoch during a visit by him to the office. He said he was a very small, weedy man with few redeeming features. During the visit he gave their marching orders to one of the cleaners because someone had dropped a piece of litter in the walkway between the desk and it hadn’t been picked up. He said Murdoch’s son seemed okay but was totally in his father’s shadow.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 09, 2019, 02:57:45 PM
I viewed the three-part drama with some concern initially but by the end I was actively seeking more.  Martin Clunes played Colin Sutton admirably so well done to him.  Troubling however was the jealousy between police forces which might well have resulted in a failed investigation.

Nonetheless it remains a drama; a well presented one in my book but I can see why some will disagree.
It dispels the crazy notion that one can "bung all the data in a computer press the tit and hey presto instant perpetrator".
The jealousy bit is human nature and operates in any large organisation to the detriment of that organisation.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Sunny on January 09, 2019, 02:57:56 PM
I wonder how much jealosy there is between the PJ and Grange

Who would you think was being jealous of whom, Davel?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Admin on January 09, 2019, 03:04:21 PM
I wonder how much jealosy there is between the PJ and Grange

Pretty sure the PJ would love to have £12 million extra to spend on solving the Madeleine case.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 09, 2019, 03:11:09 PM
Pretty sure the PJ would love to have £12 million extra to spend on solving the Madeleine case.

I think a lot if that was translating and eviewing the 40 thousand files which the PJ have not had to do
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 09, 2019, 03:42:27 PM
You seem to think it was  because of Sutton's attitude. I didn't see anything wrong with his attitude, did I miss something?
Where did I say that?  You are deflecting.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Sunny on January 09, 2019, 03:43:10 PM
I think a lot if that was translating and eviewing the 40 thousand files which the PJ have not had to do

How big is "a lot" Davel. Redwood had his revelatory moment in 2013 it is now 2018.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 09, 2019, 03:43:43 PM
Was talking to an individual last week who had worked at the Times office some time ago. He met Murdoch during a visit by him to the office. He said he was a very small, weedy man with few redeeming features. During the visit he gave their marching orders to one of the cleaners because someone had dropped a piece of litter in the walkway between the desk and it hadn’t been picked up. He said Murdoch’s son seemed okay but was totally in his father’s shadow.
Gosh, how insightful. 
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 09, 2019, 03:44:33 PM
Nonetheless it remains a drama; a well presented one in my book but I can see why some will disagree.
It dispels the crazy notion that one can "bung all the data in a computer press the tit and hey presto instant perpetrator".
The jealousy bit is human nature and operates in any large organisation to the detriment of that organisation.
Where has this crazy notion ever been voiced?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 09, 2019, 05:04:07 PM
Co operation  from the public was a massive help in solving this case... With the Portuguese people on the whole beleiving the McCann's are guilty... Due to amarals book and the press... There has been no public help
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 09, 2019, 05:40:55 PM
What is the definition of "a very small man" these days?  According to t'internet Rupert Murdoch is 5ft 8 1/2"  My grandfather on my mother's side was 5ft 2" - now he I would describe as a very small man, but have the parameters changed recently? 
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 09, 2019, 05:45:49 PM
The Surrey Detective didn't half get shirty.

You were able to watch it then? He did have the food grace to apologise later and to acknowledge the strength of Sutton's evidence.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 09, 2019, 06:09:11 PM
You were able to watch it then? He did have the food grace to apologise later and to acknowledge the strength of Sutton's evidence.
Yes, I wonder if we can look forward to a Mea Culpa from anyone in the PJ if and when the MM case is solved and it is established beyond doubt that the parents had nothing to do with it.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 09, 2019, 07:03:05 PM
What is the definition of "a very small man" these days?  According to t'internet Rupert Murdoch is 5ft 8 1/2"  My grandfather on my mother's side was 5ft 2" - now he I would describe as a very small man, but have the parameters changed recently?

Let's go all PC, use ONS data and say "of below average height" then. Average being 1760mm according to ONS.
BTW why you still using Mickey Mouse units? The UK changed to SI over 40 years ago; are you a "Septic" ** or something?
Me being non PC and 1880mm height, 1760 is positively short arsed in my book but then at enlistment age The Grenadier Guards would have considered me a short arse as 1880mm was then their lower height limit.
Question is answered, no?
Good innit.

** rhyming slang
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 09, 2019, 07:12:50 PM
Let's go all PC, use ONS data and say "of below average height" then. Average being 1760mm according to ONS.
BTW why you still using Mickey Mouse units? The UK changed to SI over 40 years ago; are you a "Septic" ** or something?
Me being non PC and 1880mm height, 1760 is positively short arsed in my book but then at enlistment age The Grenadier Guards would have considered me a short arse as 1880mm was then their lower height limit.
Question is answered, no?
Good innit.

** rhyming slang
Which is a long and convoluted way of saying not very much IMO.  The average height of the British male is 5ft 9" so at 5ft 8 1/2" Rupert Murdoch, whilst possibly puny, is surely not a "very small man" even by today's standard.  I wonder what it is about this old multimillionaire that so appealed to the less vertically challenged and much younger Jerry Hall...?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on January 09, 2019, 07:28:57 PM
You were able to watch it then? He did have the food grace to apologise later and to acknowledge the strength of Sutton's evidence.

Yes, I was able to watch it.  It was up on Pirate Television almost immediately.

To me, most of Sutton's success seems to have been due to instinct, although I was a bit confused as to why he thought it was Bellfield in the first place.  Just a white van parked for about twenty minutes.  I have no idea why he picked on that.

Martin Clunes was marvellous, and even looked somewhat like Sutton.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Admin on January 09, 2019, 07:31:26 PM
Co operation  from the public was a massive help in solving this case... With the Portuguese people on the whole beleiving the McCann's are guilty... Due to amarals book and the press... There has been no public help

Very few cases would be solved without informers and/or public cooperation. The murder of Amelie Delagrange would most probably never have been solved had Bellfield's partner not spoken up and given Colin Sutton the crucial information he needed to get past the CPS.  Bellfield's other victims would probably not have received justice either.

We must never underestimate the value the public bring to cases.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Admin on January 09, 2019, 07:39:23 PM
Yes, I was able to watch it.  It was up on Pirate Television almost immediately.

To me, most of Sutton's success seems to have been due to instinct, although I was a bit confused as to why he thought it was Bellfield in the first place.  Just a white van parked for about twenty minutes.  I have no idea why he picked on that.

Martin Clunes was marvellous, and even looked somewhat like Sutton.

To be honest it was part instinct and part good luck for Sutton. The white van was parked by the side of the road during the time of the murder but then disappeared immediately. Had Sutton not expended resources on finding that vehicle then a valuable lead would have been lost. The van was traced to a local wheel clamping outfit and thereafter to Bellfield.  The rest is history.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 09, 2019, 07:58:10 PM
Of course it is, they were there experiencing the incompetence first hand.

Oh that is a bit rich... they left their children alone every night, one  is claimed to have been abducted by paedophiles and they notice the police are incompetent?  they offer no evidence of this.

They called their parents and families and the press... did they tell them they left the childern alone to go wineing and dining and left a door unlocked? NO- Did they tell them the police,  and they, were looking for a 'missing' child who may have wandered off due to the unlocked door NO.  They  also forgot to mention a whole lot of police had little sleep as they were on duty and searching not to mention a lot of the staff and locals...  Instead they told a story about windows being open curtains whooshing and shutters jemmied and daughter missing, adding and the police were doing nothing and they were left all alone out looking by 'ourselves'.  Hmm

So within an hour or so of their daughter missing they are slagging off the police as being incompetent- even though they did not know what the police were doing.  disgusting.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 09, 2019, 08:02:21 PM
Why... When we knew the mistakes they were making... Their incorrect belief that maddies death in the, apartment was confirmed... This was a massive error


Nothing has been confirmed regarding MBM's mortal state.

You do not know if MBM was killed in that apartment. She could have swallowed pills and died- she could have been killed by an intruder- she could have fell over and banged her head and died. So many possibilities, and you have no evidence of anything about what happened in that apartment  you were not there.... Or were you?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 09, 2019, 08:08:48 PM

Nothing has been confirmed regarding MBM's mortal state.

You do not know if MBM was killed in that apartment. She could have swallowed pills and died- she could have been killed by an intruder- she could have fell over and banged her head and died. So many possibilities, and you have no evidence of anything about what happened in that apartment  you were not there.... Or were you?
Swallowed pills and died??!  What sort of pills?  Do children of 4 swallow pills? 
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 09, 2019, 08:11:09 PM
I wonder how useful people would have found this dramatization if Sutton hadn’t recently inveigled his way into the Anti McCann camp on twitter and become a bit of a champion of the sceptic cause??

That is quite a slurr.  I admire the man for the work he has done, his compassion, and dedication. Is that why you can't stand him and are slagging him off because you believe he is an anti-Mccann.. OMG!

Colin Sutton said a couple of things I am aware of:
 1. He was advised not to touch the OG investigation , if he was offered it, as it had a strict remit- only abduction.
 2. He mentioned that the investigation should focus on what actually happened - go back to the beginning- which would involve questioning the parents and family.

AS far as I know he has never said anything derogatory of the parents or tapas. So how you figure him to be anti McCann says more about you.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 09, 2019, 08:13:21 PM
Swallowed pills and died??!  What sort of pills?  Do children of 4 swallow pills?

Do children of 4 swallow smarties/malteesers/MnMs? the answer is YES!  children do swallow pills thinking they are sweets...
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on January 09, 2019, 08:14:55 PM

Could we possible stick to the Topic, Please?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 09, 2019, 08:16:12 PM
Do children of 4 swallow smarties/malteesers/MnMs? the answer is YES!  children do swallow pills thinking they are sweets...
I’ve got two children and neither of them has ever swallowed large quantities of any of the afore mentioned confectionery.  Where’s the fun in swallowing and not munching sweeties?  So what pills do you think Madeleine could have swallowed in lethal quantity and caused her to die so very quickly?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 09, 2019, 08:18:39 PM
That is quite a slurr.  I admire the man for the work he has done, his compassion, and dedication. Is that why you can't stand him and are slagging him off because you believe he is an anti-Mccann.. OMG!

Colin Sutton said a couple of things I am aware of:
 1. He was advised not to touch the OG investigation , if he was offered it, as it had a strict remit- only abduction.
 2. He mentioned that the investigation should focus on what actually happened - go back to the beginning- which would involve questioning the parents and family.

AS far as I know he has never said anything derogatory of the parents or tapas. So how you figure him to be anti McCann says more about you.
Before we move on to the meat of your post please can you tell me how you have surmised that I can’t stand the man?  That’s a ridiculous assumption.  I have not slagged him off once, merely stated facts. 
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 09, 2019, 08:43:55 PM
Yes, I was able to watch it.  It was up on Pirate Television almost immediately.

To me, most of Sutton's success seems to have been due to instinct, although I was a bit confused as to why he thought it was Bellfield in the first place.  Just a white van parked for about twenty minutes.  I have no idea why he picked on that.

Martin Clunes was marvellous, and even looked somewhat like Sutton.

I'm glad you were able to see it. It was a very well done piece of work and, as you say, Martin Clunes did a great job of showing a real detective doing a real job. I found that so much more interesting than those invented by writers. 

I think good detectives do develop a 'nose' which helps them along. The van was interesting, but once the statement by Bellfield's ex was brought to his attention he was on the trail and followed it doggedly.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 09, 2019, 08:51:26 PM

Nothing has been confirmed regarding MBM's mortal state.

You do not know if MBM was killed in that apartment. She could have swallowed pills and died- she could have been killed by an intruder- she could have fell over and banged her head and died. So many possibilities, and you have no evidence of anything about what happened in that apartment  you were not there.... Or were you?

Could you tell amaral nothing has, been confirmed... According to him it has
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 09, 2019, 08:54:00 PM
Yes, I wonder if we can look forward to a Mea Culpa from anyone in the PJ if and when the MM case is solved and it is established beyond doubt that the parents had nothing to do with it.

Did they speak to the UK police officers like that Surrey policeman spoke to Sutton? Did they refuse to listen to the UK police officers like that officer refused to listen to Sutton? He had every reason to apologise, the PJ don't have any reason to do so.

I think you are being over-optimistic if you expect it to be established beyond reasonable doubt that the parents had nothing to do with the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 09, 2019, 08:57:27 PM
Did they speak to the UK police officers like that Surrey policeman spoke to Sutton? Did they refuse to listen to the UK police officers like that officer refused to listen to Sutton? He had every reason to apologise, the PJ don't have any reason to do so.

I think you are being over-optimistic if you expect it to be established beyond reasonable doubt that the parents had nothing to do with the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.

I think it's already been established... If the mccans went to court now they would be found not guilty
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 09, 2019, 09:03:30 PM
Did they speak to the UK police officers like that Surrey policeman spoke to Sutton? Did they refuse to listen to the UK police officers like that officer refused to listen to Sutton? He had every reason to apologise, the PJ don't have any reason to do so.

I think you are being over-optimistic if you expect it to be established beyond reasonable doubt that the parents had nothing to do with the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
I was thinking of Amaral actually, a man who would have every reason to apologise to the McCanns should it be established they had nothing to do with Madeleine’s disappearance but who is IMO probably far too proud and arrogant to ever consider such a course of action.  I am quite certain that if this case is ever solved (which is not beyond the realms of possibility) that the McCanns innocence will be established beyond reasonable doubt.  Why is that being overly optimistic?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 09, 2019, 09:49:28 PM
I was thinking of Amaral actually, a man who would have every reason to apologise to the McCanns should it be established they had nothing to do with Madeleine’s disappearance but who is IMO probably far too proud and arrogant to ever consider such a course of action.  I am quite certain that if this case is ever solved (which is not beyond the realms of possibility) that the McCanns innocence will be established beyond reasonable doubt.  Why is that being overly optimistic?

Just think! One day you might find you were wrong all along. In my opinion that would be hilarious.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 09, 2019, 09:52:27 PM
Just think! One day you might find you were wrong all along. In my opinion that would be hilarious.
Why would that be hilarious?  It’s never going to happen anyway so dream on.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 09, 2019, 09:53:19 PM
Which is a long and convoluted way of saying not very much IMO.  The average height of the British male is 5ft 9" so at 5ft 8 1/2" Rupert Murdoch, whilst possibly puny, is surely not a "very small man" even by today's standard.  I wonder what it is about this old multimillionaire that so appealed to the less vertically challenged and much younger Jerry Hall...?

Well you would know all about that.
But in answer to your last question you maybe answered it yourself.
Like Mose says:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpTSVy3yzts
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 09, 2019, 10:02:07 PM
Let's go all PC, use ONS data and say "of below average height" then. Average being 1760mm according to ONS.
BTW why you still using Mickey Mouse units? The UK changed to SI over 40 years ago; are you a "Septic" ** or something?
Me being non PC and 1880mm height, 1760 is positively short arsed in my book but then at enlistment age The Grenadier Guards would have considered me a short arse as 1880mm was then their lower height limit.
Question is answered, no?
Good innit.

** rhyming slang

It seems we have never fully adopted SI units... Al our road signs are in mph.... Police still report the height of suspects in feet and inches.. So your post is a bit of nonsense
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 09, 2019, 10:02:59 PM
Well you would know all about that.
But in answer to your last question you maybe answered it yourself.
Like Mose says:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpTSVy3yzts
I don’t do long and convoluted, I don’t do youtube videos either.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 09, 2019, 10:08:59 PM
Well you would know all about that old stick.
But in answer to your last question you maybe answered it yourself.
Like Mose says:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpTSVy3yzts

Your link doesn't exist
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 09, 2019, 10:37:43 PM
Why would that be hilarious?  It’s never going to happen anyway so dream on.

I would find it hilarious because in my opinion everything you say is based on what you believe is the truth, not on what you know is the truth. Do you agree with those who criticise Redwood's crecheman idea by the way?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 09, 2019, 10:42:40 PM
I would find it hilarious because in my opinion everything you say is based on what you believe is the truth, not on what you know is the truth. Do you agree with those who criticise Redwood's crecheman idea by the way?
What is intrinsically hilarious about having strongly held beliefs?  Would you find it hilarious if Amaral’s beliefs were proven to be wrong?  I very much doubt it.
As for your question, you’ve already asked me that once today, and I have already answered, how many more times do you require me to answer?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 09, 2019, 10:47:50 PM
It seems we have never fully adopted SI units... Al our road signs are in mph.... Police still report the height of suspects in feet and inches.. So your post is a bit of nonsense

So?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 09, 2019, 10:53:32 PM
Your link doesn't exist

It works for me.
Try these instead
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yK2-nAR0Aks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82rH59GH3MY
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 09, 2019, 11:02:12 PM
So?
So no need to take the piss out of me for writing about feet and inches, 'kay?  .
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 09, 2019, 11:09:57 PM
What is intrinsically hilarious about having strongly held beliefs?  Would you find it hilarious if Amaral’s beliefs were proven to be wrong?  I very much doubt it.
As for your question, you’ve already asked me that once today, and I have already answered, how many more times do you require me to answer?

People are entitled to believe anything they like. Pretending that their beliefs are correct is another matter entirely.
Amaral was not asking people to believe what he believed, he was explaining what the investigation concluded.

Sorry, I didn't see your answer to my question. I'll go and find it.

Found it. So you don't think Redwood made a mistake when replacing Tannerman with Crecheman? You think Jane Tanner saw crecheman heading towards the night creche even though the man concerned said he was leaving the creche having collected his child?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 09, 2019, 11:24:40 PM
People are entitled to believe anything they like. Pretending that their beliefs are correct is another matter entirely.
Amaral was not asking people to believe what he believed, he was explaining what the investigation concluded.

Sorry, I didn't see your answer to my question. I'll go and find it.

Found it. So you don't think Redwood made a mistake when replacing Tannerman with Crecheman? You think Jane Tanner saw crecheman heading towards the night creche even though the man concerned said he was leaving the creche having collected his child?
I am pretending nothing.   I am quite certain I am correct, and I believe that time will prove me right.  I believe I am entitled to state that and if you think the prospect of me being proven wrong is a matter of great hilarity, well that says more about you than me IMO.
As for the second part of your post - I don't criticise Andy Redwood no.  I don't know what was discussed between the Met and Totman, or any of the finer details which led them to their decision.  I don't believe the Met are really that bloody stupid as to not notice the contradiction in the directions each man was walking.  But I am fully prepared to heap scorn and ridicule upon Redwood if and when it turns out that he really IS that bloody stupid.  I trust I won't have to keep on answering this question now?

Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 10, 2019, 06:18:01 AM
I am pretending nothing.   I am quite certain I am correct, and I believe that time will prove me right.  I believe I am entitled to state that and if you think the prospect of me being proven wrong is a matter of great hilarity, well that says more about you than me IMO.
As for the second part of your post - I don't criticise Andy Redwood no.  I don't know what was discussed between the Met and Totman, or any of the finer details which led them to their decision.  I don't believe the Met are really that bloody stupid as to not notice the contradiction in the directions each man was walking.  But I am fully prepared to heap scorn and ridicule upon Redwood if and when it turns out that he really IS that bloody stupid.  I trust I won't have to keep on answering this question now?

I think someone found that questionnaire saying that man was around with his child in the same area as Tanner's sighting at about the same time and no-one thought to double-check the map. Instead of explaining Jane's sighting they just added more confusion. 
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 10, 2019, 07:18:48 AM
I think someone found that questionnaire saying that man was around with his child in the same area as Tanner's sighting at about the same time and no-one thought to double-check the map. Instead of explaining Jane's sighting they just added more confusion.
Are you saying that in your opinion the Met never even spoke to Totman and really are totally incompetent?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 10, 2019, 07:59:03 AM
To those who are full of admiration for the working methods of the Met as described in the series about Colin Sutton, do you think that these stringent and diligent methods were ditched for the Madeleine McCann case, or do you think it’s only because Colin Sutton was put in charge of the investigation that there were results?  In other words was the work leading up to the Lee Bellfield arrest somewhat atypical of the Met’s working methods, or do you think the Met have atypically done a really bad job on the MM investigation either through incompetent leadership or because of pressure from above?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 10, 2019, 08:16:57 AM
Are you saying that in your opinion the Met never even spoke to Totman and really are totally incompetent?

They spoke to someone and photographed him but he didn't look much like Totman or the man Jane Tanner described. Neither did his clothing or the pyjamas his child was supposed to be wearing. Why a blanket was photographed I don't know because Jane saw no blanket.

I don't know if OG were incompetent or not. All I do know is that the Crecheman story isn't convincing for all the above reasons as well as his direction of travel.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 10, 2019, 08:26:03 AM
They spoke to someone and photographed him but he didn't look much like Totman or the man Jane Tanner described. Neither did his clothing or the pyjamas his child was supposed to be wearing. Why a blanket was photographed I don't know because Jane saw no blanket.

I don't know if OG were incompetent or not. All I do know is that the Crecheman story isn't convincing for all the above reasons as well as his direction of travel.
I thought he looked very similar to the man JT saw, in fact the press made a big deal of how similar they were.  Remember they are comparing the actual man with a woman’s memory of a fleeting glimps of a man in the semi darkness. There are plenty of similarities, why do you overlook them?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 10, 2019, 08:27:50 AM
To those who are full of admiration for the working methods of the Met as described in the series about Colin Sutton, do you think that these stringent and diligent methods were ditched for the Madeleine McCann case, or do you think it’s only because Colin Sutton was put in charge of the investigation that there were results?  In other words was the work leading up to the Lee Bellfield arrest somewhat atypical of the Met’s working methods, or do you think the Met have atypically done a really bad job on the MM investigation either through incompetent leadership or because of pressure from above?

I think that each investigation is different and so are the people involved in them. Hard work is important, but so is a certain amount of luck. Sutton had a free hand to investigate what he wished and he had some luck too.

Operation Grange was atypical because The Met seem to have been investigating just one hypothesis which was decided by those higher up in the chain of command. It has been hampered by it's distance from the site of the crime and it's lack of freedom to investigate there.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 10, 2019, 08:36:33 AM
I think that each investigation is different and so are the people involved in them. Hard work is important, but so is a certain amount of luck. Sutton had a free hand to investigate what he wished and he had some luck too.

Operation Grange was atypical because The Met seem to have been investigating just one hypothesis which was decided by those higher up in the chain of command. It has been hampered by it's distance from the site of the crime and it's lack of freedom to investigate there.
This would seem to suggest either a conspiracy at a high level or criminal incompetence, which do you think it is?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 10, 2019, 08:44:59 AM
I thought he looked very similar to the man JT saw, in fact the press made a big deal of how similar they were.  Remember they are comparing the actual man with a woman’s memory of a fleeting glimps of a man in the semi darkness. There are plenty of similarities, why do you overlook them?

Totman's height is similar to Russell O'Brien's. Jane described someone well below six feet tall. The man in the OG photo was wearing a normal black jacket Jane described a 'bomber' jacket with a gathered hem. The man had curly hair, Jane described it as 'glossy' which suggests it was straight.

Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 10, 2019, 09:05:29 AM
This would seem to suggest either a conspiracy at a high level or criminal incompetence, which do you think it is?

People have declared that they believe the parents aren't involved, but no one has explained why they hold that opinion. If it's based on Redwood's 'forensic' analysis of the timeline the fact that it was a group effort seems to have been ignored. If it's based on a personal assessment of the parent's demeanor then that's just an opinion. The assistant Chief Constable of LP was right; there is no evidence which excludes them
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 10, 2019, 09:11:04 AM
People have declared that they believe the parents aren't involved, but no one has explained why they hold that opinion. If it's based on Redwood's 'forensic' analysis of the timeline the fact that it was a group effort seems to have been ignored. If it's based on a personal assessment of the parent's demeanor then that's just an opinion. The assistant Chief Constable of LP was right; there is no evidence which excludes them

what you are saying simply isnt true....ive made several posts explaining exactly why i dont think the parents are involved...there have been long discussions about the possibility of a fatal fall beteween 8.30 and 10...do you not remember them...the discussions about...why would the mccanns campaign to have the case reopenend if they were guilty...have you forgotten those too...lets just add...that is not what the chief constable said...you have misquoted him...there is lots of evidence which excludes the mccanns
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on January 10, 2019, 09:17:31 AM
People have declared that they believe the parents aren't involved, but no one has explained why they hold that opinion. If it's based on Redwood's 'forensic' analysis of the timeline the fact that it was a group effort seems to have been ignored. If it's based on a personal assessment of the parent's demeanor then that's just an opinion. The assistant Chief Constable of LP was right; there is no evidence which excludes them

I have explained.  Logic, Logistics, Timeframe, Lack of knowledge of the area.  There were far better ways of covering up The McCanns's involvement.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 10, 2019, 09:31:09 AM
what you are saying simply isnt true....ive made several posts explaining exactly why i dont think the parents are involved...tehre have been long discussions about teh possibility of a fatal fall beteween 8.30 and 10...do you not remeber them...the discussions about...why would teh mccanns campaign to ahve the case reopenend if they were guilty...have you forgotten those too...lets just add...taht is not what teh chief constable said...you have misquoted him...there is lots of evidence which excludes the mccanns

As true now as it was then;

"While one or both of them may be innocent, there is no clear evidence that eliminates them from involvement in Madeleine’s disappearance." [madeleine]
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 10, 2019, 09:43:03 AM
As true now as it was then;

"While one or both of them may be innocent, there is no clear evidence that eliminates them from involvement in Madeleine’s disappearance." [madeleine]

now you have quoted him correctly...he said no clear evidence...not no evidence...there is plenty of evidence
and you are wrong about supporters not giving their explantion too..

PDC of the PJ said they are not suspects and thers no evidence against them....Its clear tehy are not being investigated........you are in total denial of the true facts...imo
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 10, 2019, 10:32:38 AM
now you have quoted him correctly...he said no clear evidence...not no evidence...there is plenty of evidence
and you are wrong about supporters not giving their explantion too..

PDC of the PJ said they are not suspects and thers no evidence against them....Its clear tehy are not being investigated........you are in total denial of the true facts...imo

Whether they are being investigated or not the fact remains that no policeman has ever said there is clear evidence that eliminates them.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 10, 2019, 10:35:59 AM
Whether they are being investigated or not the fact remains that no policeman has ever said there is clear evidence that eliminates them.

do you understand what clear evidence means...it means basically proof. No policeman has ever said there is no clear evidence to eliminate Ben Needhams grandmother...as i said...imo...you are in total denial


If Maddie ws abducted...what clear evidence would you expect to eliminate the mccanns
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 10, 2019, 11:02:23 AM
do you understand what clear evidence means...it means basically proof. No policeman has ever said there is no clear evidence to eliminate Ben Needhams grandmother...as i said...imo...you are in total denial


If Maddie ws abducted...what clear evidence would you expect to eliminate the mccanns

Ben Needham's grandmother didn't try to get hold of police evidence whilst being an official suspect in the case, so no police officer needed to make any statement about her status.

A C Rowley could have said Madeleine was abducted because he had evidence that the parents weren't involved. He chose instead to justify his belief in abduction by referring to Madeleine's age.

Looking at what the police haven't said is as informative as looking at what they have said in my opinion.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on January 10, 2019, 11:07:28 AM
Ben Needham's grandmother didn't try to get hold of police evidence whilst being an official suspect in the case, so no police officer needed to make any statement about her status.

A C Rowley could have said Madeleine was abducted because he had evidence that the parents weren't involved. He chose instead to justify his belief in abduction by referring to Madeleine's age.

Looking at what the police haven't said is as informative as looking at what they have said in my opinion.

The McCanns actually only tried to recover information that they themselves had handed to The Police.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: jassi on January 10, 2019, 11:15:06 AM
The McCanns actually only tried to recover information that they themselves had handed to The Police.

I believe they tried for much more than that, but that's all they got
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on January 10, 2019, 11:18:17 AM
I believe they tried for much more than that, but that's all they got

I won't ask for a Cite because I can't provide one either.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: jassi on January 10, 2019, 11:37:16 AM
As I started my sentence with "I believe" I don't think it needs a cite.

However - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/2164743/Madeleine-McCann-parents-court-bid-for-information.html

" The McCanns hope their application to Mrs Justice Hogg will result in Leicestershire Police opening their files on scores of reported sightings of Madeleine, most of which have been passed on to them by police in Portugal, where the four-year-old disappeared in May last year. "
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 10, 2019, 12:26:50 PM
They wanted all the information, but had to settle for less;

While we were away, there was a hearing in the
High Court relating to an application we had made
on Madeleine’s behalf for access to all the
information held by Leicestershire police relating to
her case.
[madeleine]
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: jassi on January 10, 2019, 12:36:05 PM
Wider than that according to the Independent - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/mccanns-drop-court-action-as-police-release-files-861524.html

" Shortly after their daughter disappeared, the judge, in the High Court Family division, granted them a wide order requiring anyone on whom it was served to disclose relevant information to their solicitors.

The police were among those served with the order and serious issues then arose about the public interest in maintaining confidentiality of police investigations.

The Serious Organised Crimes Agency and the Attorney General intervened to advance their own arguments on public policy.

Mr Scott said it became clear that areas of law of great interest to lawyers would have to be considered.

"Gerry and Kate McCann are not lawyers and so far as they were concerned the legal proceedings were moving further and further from the only matter which concerns them - the search for Madeleine.

"The proceedings were in danger of becoming a distraction from, rather than an aid to, that single goal," he said.


Mr Scott said the information to be released by the police related to telephone calls made to the McCanns' solicitors and passed on to Leicestershire Constabulary's incident room during the early stages of the inquiry.

The chief constable has now agreed to provide contact details and a summary of the information provided by those early callers. "
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on January 10, 2019, 01:22:47 PM
As I started my sentence with "I believe" I don't think it needs a cite.

However - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/2164743/Madeleine-McCann-parents-court-bid-for-information.html

" The McCanns hope their application to Mrs Justice Hogg will result in Leicestershire Police opening their files on scores of reported sightings of Madeleine, most of which have been passed on to them by police in Portugal, where the four-year-old disappeared in May last year. "

What was wrong with asking for reports of sightings?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 10, 2019, 01:23:43 PM
Kate McCann wasn't at all pleased;

Having to withdraw was quite galling, especially as the eighty-one items disclosed to us included trivial details that our family had passed on to the police in the first place.
[madeleine]
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Sunny on January 10, 2019, 01:25:05 PM
What was wrong with asking for reports of sightings?

Nothing at all, unless you were implying that all the sightings of Madeleine had come from the McCanns themselves.

Your post

The McCanns actually only tried to recover information that they themselves had handed to The Police.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: jassi on January 10, 2019, 01:26:45 PM
What was wrong with asking for reports of sightings?

UK police claimed it was privileged information. They even got the Attorney General on side to make the argument.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on January 10, 2019, 01:27:21 PM
Nothing at all, unless you were implying that all the sightings of Madeleine had come from the McCanns themselves.

Your post

The McCanns actually only tried to recover information that they themselves had handed to The Police.

No.  I just wondered why you all seem so pleased that The McCanns were deprived of sightings of Madeleine.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on January 10, 2019, 01:29:48 PM
Kate McCann wasn't at all pleased;

Having to withdraw was quite galling, especially as the eighty-one items disclosed to us included trivial details that our family had passed on to the police in the first place.
[madeleine]


Sometimes in life you have to be careful what you wish for.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Sunny on January 10, 2019, 01:29:56 PM
No.  I just wondered why you all seem so pleased that The McCanns were deprived of sightings of Madeleine.

Who said anyone was pleased? I wasn't really bothering with the case at the time and I certainly am not pleased now that they didn't get copies of the sightings at that time.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 10, 2019, 01:30:22 PM
What was wrong with asking for reports of sightings?

They wanted everything that LP had, not just sightings. That would include all the holidaymaker's questionnaires, all the interviews carried out by LP, all the Crimestoppers info, all the sex offender info, all the communications between LP and the PJ and goodness knows what else. That was never going to happen if only from a data protection point of view.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: jassi on January 10, 2019, 01:31:02 PM
Not sure where you get the 'pleased' bit from, but it was clearly information that the police and ultimately the courts felt that the  McCanns were not entitled to.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 10, 2019, 01:41:39 PM

Sometimes in life you have to be careful what you wish for.

Somehow Kate McCann had formed the impression that LP wanted to give them the evidence but were unable to do so because of the Portuguese secrecy laws. What she learned from this unsuccessful case was that the UK authorities had no intention of giving them the evidence. The Portuguese secrecy laws were an excuse, not a reason.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 10, 2019, 03:17:14 PM
Somehow Kate McCann had formed the impression that LP wanted to give them the evidence but were unable to do so because of the Portuguese secrecy laws. What she learned from this unsuccessful case was that the UK authorities had no intention of giving them the evidence. The Portuguese secrecy laws were an excuse, not a reason.

I think the UK police would have been happy to give the McCanns the information but didn't want to upset the portuguese.... Who would have been very upset... And the statement was to apppease the Portuguese... Imo
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on January 10, 2019, 03:39:46 PM
No.  I just wondered why you all seem so pleased that The McCanns were deprived of sightings of Madeleine.

I believe the situation was resolved as a result of Paiva's testimony at the libel trial in 2010 when he admitted to holding a dossier of more than 2,000 pages containing information on Madeleine's case which had not been properly investigated; this evidence was given to the McCann lawyer on request and it was McCann private detectives who had to play catch up with evidence held in Judicial Police archives since the case was officially shelved in 2008.

But just as intriguing is why on a thread especially requested to exemplify successful British police work we are yet again at groundhog full circle to denigrate the victims of botched Portuguese police work ... of which a prime example must be the files considered irrelevant to Madeleine's case mouldering away quietly in Paiva's office.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Sunny on January 10, 2019, 03:40:43 PM
I think the UK police would have been happy to give the McCanns the information but didn't want to upset the portuguese.... Who would have been very upset... And the statement was to apppease the Portuguese... Imo

Are the UK police usually happy to give people restricted information about an investigation?  I wasn't aware that they were.  Or doesn't it matter if it is a Portuguese investigation.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 10, 2019, 03:50:54 PM
I think the UK police would have been happy to give the McCanns the information but didn't want to upset the portuguese.... Who would have been very upset... And the statement was to apppease the Portuguese... Imo

ROFL   (&^&
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on January 10, 2019, 04:27:13 PM
I believe the situation was resolved as a result of Paiva's testimony at the libel trial in 2010 when he admitted to holding a dossier of more than 2,000 pages containing information on Madeleine's case which had not been properly investigated; this evidence was given to the McCann lawyer on request and it was McCann private detectives who had to play catch up with evidence held in Judicial Police archives since the case was officially shelved in 2008.

But just as intriguing is why on a thread especially requested to exemplify successful British police work we are yet again at groundhog full circle to denigrate the victims of botched Portuguese police work ... of which a prime example must be the files considered irrelevant to Madeleine's case mouldering away quietly in Paiva's office.


The worth of that information proved to be what?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: jassi on January 10, 2019, 04:40:53 PM

The worth of that information proved to be what?

Zilch - IMO

Funny that, all these alleged leads and not one has led to her recovery, so far.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 10, 2019, 04:49:30 PM
I think the UK police would have been happy to give the McCanns the information but didn't want to upset the portuguese.... Who would have been very upset... And the statement was to apppease the Portuguese... Imo

Really? In my opinion you've got that completely wrong.

The UK authorities hired Portuguese lawyers to stop the Public Ministry from releasing certain information provided by them. They included;

"The Association of Chief Police Officers, The Chief Constable of Leicestershire, The Serious Organised Crime Agency, police and legal authorities in the United Kingdom and Crimestoppers"

What did they want to keep secret?

"A. Material relating to condemned and suspected sex offenders
B. Intelligence Reports
C. Crimestoppers (Crime Combating Unit)
D. Communication between Police Forces
E. Orientation of the NPIA"
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LAWYERS_UK_POLICE.htm
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on January 10, 2019, 05:49:27 PM

The worth of that information proved to be what?

Well we wont ever know that will we?  Isn't it great that the expertise of Colin Sutton's team regarding the two CCTV films one of which hadn't been viewed is lauded while the same people ignore the dereliction of Paiva's team in following evidence and indeed excuse it?

If Madeleine had been one of the children in photographs described as being "shockingly similar to Madeleine" but which was never shown to Madeleine's parents ... do you really think that for the two years the photograph lay mouldering in Paiva's ignored dossier of evidence ... that child was going to still be there waiting for the McCann private detectives to find?  I think not.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on January 10, 2019, 05:54:53 PM
Really? In my opinion you've got that completely wrong.

The UK authorities hired Portuguese lawyers to stop the Public Ministry from releasing certain information provided by them. They included;

"The Association of Chief Police Officers, The Chief Constable of Leicestershire, The Serious Organised Crime Agency, police and legal authorities in the United Kingdom and Crimestoppers"

What did they want to keep secret?

"A. Material relating to condemned and suspected sex offenders
B. Intelligence Reports
C. Crimestoppers (Crime Combating Unit)
D. Communication between Police Forces
E. Orientation of the NPIA"
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LAWYERS_UK_POLICE.htm

What is the context of your cite?  Has it anything to do with the McCann court action or is it all to do with ensuring that information was not released willy-nilly when the PJ files were released into the public domain?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on January 10, 2019, 06:11:11 PM
Well we wont ever know that will we?  Isn't it great that the expertise of Colin Sutton's team regarding the two CCTV films one of which hadn't been viewed is lauded while the same people ignore the dereliction of Paiva's team in following evidence and indeed excuse it?



If one of the films had been examined at the time then its likely that one of the victims would still be alive today,so whose lauding it?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 10, 2019, 06:16:45 PM
So no need to take the piss out of me for writing about feet and inches, 'kay?  .

You are unaware then that British Imperial Measure was booted into touch from 1959 to 1963 and was thenceforth defined legally by its relationship to SI units ? The poor old ISY became, legally, 0.9144m,
an inch existed but in name only; as a unit of linear measurement its legal definition is 25.4mm. It has been thus for practically 60 years.
The only imperial names we elected to retain were pint and mile but they are both legally metric measures defined as 568ml and 1609.344m respectively. Which makes 30 mph rather interesting. The legal definition being.
h= time =3600x SI base unit.
m(ile)= linear measurement =1609.344 m; m = SI base unit.
30mph well work it out for yourself but legally it is derived from SI base units........ *%87
Love it.

Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Faithlilly on January 10, 2019, 06:21:06 PM
I believe the situation was resolved as a result of Paiva's testimony at the libel trial in 2010 when he admitted to holding a dossier of more than 2,000 pages containing information on Madeleine's case which had not been properly investigated; this evidence was given to the McCann lawyer on request and it was McCann private detectives who had to play catch up with evidence held in Judicial Police archives since the case was officially shelved in 2008.

But just as intriguing is why on a thread especially requested to exemplify successful British police work we are yet again at groundhog full circle to denigrate the victims of botched Portuguese police work ... of which a prime example must be the files considered irrelevant to Madeleine's case mouldering away quietly in Paiva's office.

Do you have a cite for this  ?

‘I believe the situation was resolved as a result of Paiva's testimony at the libel trial in 2010 when he admitted to holding a dossier of more than 2,000 pages containing information on Madeleine's case which had not been properly investigated’
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on January 10, 2019, 06:35:46 PM
Do you have a cite for this  ?

‘I believe the situation was resolved as a result of Paiva's testimony at the libel trial in 2010 when he admitted to holding a dossier of more than 2,000 pages containing information on Madeleine's case which had not been properly investigated’

Well in the McCann v Amaral in 2013 John reports Paiva had a bit more to say.
Quote
Paiva went to great lengths to explain that although the investigation was officially shelved it still continued and still does to this day.  Although he no longer works in the Portimão office, new information still comes in all the time as far as he is aware and is logged and cross checked and correlated.  He says that he himself continued to work on the case even after it was shelved.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2591.0
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 10, 2019, 06:36:10 PM
What is the context of your cite?  Has it anything to do with the McCann court action or is it all to do with ensuring that information was not released willy-nilly when the PJ files were released into the public domain?

The context is that a member thought that UK authorities would have released the information the McCanns wanted if it hadn't been for those pesky Portuguese secrecy laws. The truth is that the UK authorities were more concerned with secrecy than the Portuguese were. That's why they refused the McCann's request. My cite demonstrates how the UK authorities took action to keep their information from being released with the Portuguese files.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 10, 2019, 06:37:28 PM
You are unaware then that British Imperial Measure was booted into touch from 1959 to 1963 and was thenceforth defined legally by its relationship to SI units ? The poor old ISY became, legally, 0.9144m,
an inch existed but in name only; as a unit of linear measurement its legal definition is 25.4mm. It has been thus for practically 60 years.
The only imperial names we elected to retain were pint and mile but they are both legally metric measures defined as 568ml and 1609.344m respectively. Which makes 30 mph rather interesting. The legal definition being.
h= time =3600x SI base unit.
m(ile)= linear measurement =1609.344 m; m = SI base unit.
30mph well work it out for yourself but legally it is derived from SI base units........ *%87
Love it.

If you read newspapers you will see feet and inches is still used as a description of height....Ive just asked one of my younger sons how tall he is...he said about five ft two.....

roadworks are still expressed in yards...I can still buy a pint in the pub.....I could go onfor miles and miles
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 10, 2019, 06:40:07 PM
The context is that a member thought that UK authorities would have released the information the McCanns wanted if it hadn't been for those pesky Portuguese secrecy laws. The truth is that the UK authorities were more concerned with secrecy than the Portuguese were. That's why they refused the McCann's request. My cite demonstrates how the UK authorities took action to keep their information from being released with the Portuguese files.

you are quoting your opinion nothing more....The UK police did not want certain things released...the names of sex offenders for one.....for obviouis reasons
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 10, 2019, 06:43:01 PM
Well we wont ever know that will we?  Isn't it great that the expertise of Colin Sutton's team regarding the two CCTV films one of which hadn't been viewed is lauded while the same people ignore the dereliction of Paiva's team in following evidence and indeed excuse it?

If Madeleine had been one of the children in photographs described as being "shockingly similar to Madeleine" but which was never shown to Madeleine's parents ... do you really think that for the two years the photograph lay mouldering in Paiva's ignored dossier of evidence ... that child was going to still be there waiting for the McCann private detectives to find?  I think not.

As 'Manhunt' is the subject of the thread why have people ended up criticising the PJ? Lest we forget, a mistake by the UK police allowed Bellfield to kill more victims before he was caught.

Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 10, 2019, 06:46:00 PM
you are quoting your opinion nothing more....The UK police did not want certain things released...the names of sex offenders for one.....for obviouis reasons

Therefore, as I said, there was no way they were going to accede to the McCann's request for all the evidence held by LP.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 10, 2019, 06:47:05 PM
Therefore, as I said, there was no way they were going to accede to the McCann's request for all the evidence held by LP.

did they ask for all the evidence held by LP .....do you have a cite
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 10, 2019, 06:48:34 PM
As 'Manhunt' is the subject of the thread why have people ended up criticising the PJ? Lest we forget, a mistake by the UK police allowed Bellfield to kill more victims before he was caught.

some of us understand police make mistakes...some think the portuguese police do not
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: jassi on January 10, 2019, 06:59:18 PM
Therefore, as I said, there was no way they were going to accede to the McCann's request for all the evidence held by LP.

Not just information held by LP, otherwise why would the Serious Crime Squad and the Attorney General get themselves involved?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 10, 2019, 07:00:15 PM
People have declared that they believe the parents aren't involved, but no one has explained why they hold that opinion. If it's based on Redwood's 'forensic' analysis of the timeline the fact that it was a group effort seems to have been ignored. If it's based on a personal assessment of the parent's demeanor then that's just an opinion. The assistant Chief Constable of LP was right; there is no evidence which excludes them
IMO The parents did not have the means, motive or opportunity to dispose of a child’s body within the framework of the known facts, at least not without the full cooperation and collusion of their entire group of friends it really is that simple.  If you think that you can come up with a plausible reason why an entire group of holiday makers would involve themselves in a cover up of the accidental death of their friends’ child then I’d love to hear it, also a plausible and coherent theory of how they got away with such an audacious crime.  I know you won’t because I know you can’t.  Call me arrogant, find me hilarious, it’s the truth.  BTW you didn’t answer the question:Operation Grange - conspiracy or incompetence
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 10, 2019, 07:05:07 PM
Totman's height is similar to Russell O'Brien's. Jane described someone well below six feet tall. The man in the OG photo was wearing a normal black jacket Jane described a 'bomber' jacket with a gathered hem. The man had curly hair, Jane described it as 'glossy' which suggests it was straight.
So you’re making no allowances for the fact that JT saw him at some distance, in semi darkness and at a time when she wasn’t intent on memorizing everything little detail for posterity.  Do you think that’s very reasonable of you?  Do you not acknowledge any similarities AT ALL between her description and Totman?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 10, 2019, 07:06:09 PM
did they ask for all the evidence held by LP .....do you have a cite

Of course, already provided.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10539.msg509642#msg509642
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 10, 2019, 07:09:54 PM
You are unaware then that British Imperial Measure was booted into touch from 1959 to 1963 and was thenceforth defined legally by its relationship to SI units ? The poor old ISY became, legally, 0.9144m,
an inch existed but in name only; as a unit of linear measurement its legal definition is 25.4mm. It has been thus for practically 60 years.
The only imperial names we elected to retain were pint and mile but they are both legally metric measures defined as 568ml and 1609.344m respectively. Which makes 30 mph rather interesting. The legal definition being.
h= time =3600x SI base unit.
m(ile)= linear measurement =1609.344 m; m = SI base unit.
30mph well work it out for yourself but legally it is derived from SI base units........ *%87
Love it.
God, you’re so clever it makes me want to weep.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 10, 2019, 07:36:48 PM
Of course, already provided.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10539.msg509642#msg509642

So where in that a nk does it mention... Al the evidence held by LP... It doesn't... That's the second time today your cite dies not support your claim
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 10, 2019, 07:45:55 PM
some of us understand police make mistakes...some think the portuguese police do not

Of course they do, but some seem obsessed with pointing out the PJ's shortcomings at every opportunity. On and on they go, about the PJ, Portuguese judges and Portuguese laws.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 10, 2019, 07:50:04 PM
So where in that a nk does it mention... Al the evidence held by LP... It doesn't... That's the second time today your cite dies not support your claim

Should have gone to Specsavers;

an application we had made on Madeleine’s behalf for access to all the information held by Leicestershire police relating to her case.


Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 10, 2019, 07:50:52 PM
Of course they do, but some seem obsessed with pointing out the PJ's shortcomings at every opportunity. On and on they go, about the PJ, Portuguese judges and Portuguese laws.

I don't agree... What I see here is pistets obsessed with pointing out he mccans mistakes
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on January 10, 2019, 07:57:35 PM
Do you have a cite for this  ?

‘I believe the situation was resolved as a result of Paiva's testimony at the libel trial in 2010 when he admitted to holding a dossier of more than 2,000 pages containing information on Madeleine's case which had not been properly investigated’

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/7353737/Madeleine-McCann-more-than-50-new-leads.html
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 10, 2019, 08:04:41 PM
Should have gone to Specsavers;

an application we had made on Madeleine’s behalf for access to all the information held by Leicestershire police relating to her case.

so again...where does that line appear...could you provide a cite
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on January 10, 2019, 08:38:05 PM
The context is that a member thought that UK authorities would have released the information the McCanns wanted if it hadn't been for those pesky Portuguese secrecy laws. The truth is that the UK authorities were more concerned with secrecy than the Portuguese were. That's why they refused the McCann's request. My cite demonstrates how the UK authorities took action to keep their information from being released with the Portuguese files.

Therefore clearly absolutely nothing at all to do with either the McCann's legal action or anything to do with them at all which your post appears to misleadingly imply.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 10, 2019, 09:06:39 PM
Therefore clearly absolutely nothing at all to do with either the McCann's legal action or anything to do with them at all which your post appears to misleadingly imply.

If the UK authorities had given civilians personal details of those who contacted them or answered their questions they would have been breaking the law.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 10, 2019, 09:45:26 PM
God, you’re so clever it makes me want to weep.

Are you not British? or are you actually one of The Grauniad Types you so decry?
It's all about being British and eccentric.
Make a law in 1963 and nearly sixty years later no one takes much notice of it or even knows it exists except a few engineers and scientists.
A bit like 80 grands worth of motor on the drive and a garage, with locks and alarms, containing a grands worth of tat.
So dreadfully British and droll.
I'll pm you a packet of Handy Andies.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 10, 2019, 09:58:18 PM
Are you not British? or are you actually one of The Grauniad Types you so decry?
It's all about being British and eccentric.
Make a law in 1963 and nearly sixty years later no one takes much notice of it or even knows it exists except a few engineers and scientists.
A bit like 80 grands worth of motor on the drive and a garage, with locks and alarms, containing a grands worth of tat.
So dreadfully British and droll.
I'll pm you a packet of Handy Andies.
8)><(
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on January 10, 2019, 10:40:11 PM
New Levi Bellfield drama sees THREE more women come forward as 'attack victims'
The ITV series Manhunt details the capture of Levi Bellfield, who murdered schoolgirl Milly Dowler, 13, and students Amelie Delagrange, 22, and Marsha McDonnell, 19, between 2002 and 2004

ByChris Kitching
13:46, 8 JAN 2019

A new drama about the capture of serial killer Levi Bellfield has inspired three more women to come forward claiming he attacked them.
_____________________________________________________

Manhunt details how DCI Sutton linked Delagrange's murder in 2004 to the murders of McDonnell in 2003 and Dowler in 2002.

Mr Sutton, now retired, said this week that since the drama premiered on Sunday night three women have contacted him on Twitter claiming they were sexually assaulted by Bellfield.

He said he has been in contact with the women and he has made arrangements to speak to those who "want to be spoken to".

Mr Sutton told ITV News: "I’ve had another three ladies who have come forward to me via Twitter to say 'I was attacked by Levi Bellfield and I never reported it to police', and I’ve made contact with them ... and I’ve made arrangements to speak to those who want to be spoken to and to try and help them."

He added: "It’s not a complete surprise, to be honest.

"I’ve been involved in documentaries about Bellfield before and had the same effect.

"We just don’t know what the boundaries of this man’s offending were."
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/new-levi-bellfield-drama-sees-13827409
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Faithlilly on January 12, 2019, 01:21:04 AM
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/7353737/Madeleine-McCann-more-than-50-new-leads.html

This is what you posted :

‘I believe the situation was resolved as a result of Paiva's testimony at the libel trial in 2010 when he admitted to holding a dossier of more than 2,000 pages containing information on Madeleine's case which had not been properly investigated’

This is what Paiva actually said in court ( with thanks to Barrier)

‘Paiva went to great lengths to explain that although the investigation was officially shelved it still continued and still does to this day.  Although he no longer works in the Portimão office, new information still comes in all the time as far as he is aware and is logged and cross checked and correlated.  He says that he himself continued to work on the case even after it was shelved.’

Now please provide a cite that supports your contention or remove your accusation please. As a mod you really should know better.

Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 12, 2019, 07:14:49 AM
This is what you posted :

‘I believe the situation was resolved as a result of Paiva's testimony at the libel trial in 2010 when he admitted to holding a dossier of more than 2,000 pages containing information on Madeleine's case which had not been properly investigated’

This is what Paiva actually said in court ( with thanks to Barrier)

‘Paiva went to great lengths to explain that although the investigation was officially shelved it still continued and still does to this day.  Although he no longer works in the Portimão office, new information still comes in all the time as far as he is aware and is logged and cross checked and correlated.  He says that he himself continued to work on the case even after it was shelved.’

Now please provide a cite that supports your contention or remove your accusation please. As a mod you really should know better.


LOL at “this is what Paiva actually ssys”.  From someone who rejects everything written in the press especially if there are no direct quotes you post is really quite laughable.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on January 12, 2019, 09:07:37 AM
This is what you posted :

‘I believe the situation was resolved as a result of Paiva's testimony at the libel trial in 2010 when he admitted to holding a dossier of more than 2,000 pages containing information on Madeleine's case which had not been properly investigated’

This is what Paiva actually said in court ( with thanks to Barrier)

‘Paiva went to great lengths to explain that although the investigation was officially shelved it still continued and still does to this day.  Although he no longer works in the Portimão office, new information still comes in all the time as far as he is aware and is logged and cross checked and correlated.  He says that he himself continued to work on the case even after it was shelved.’

Now please provide a cite that supports your contention or remove your accusation please. As a mod you really should know better.



From the trial 8/10/2013.http://mccannvamarallibeltrial.blogspot.com/2013/10/ricardo-paiva.html

Quote
The Judge asks when he participated in the investigation.
RP says it was from the very beginning and lasted up to the shelving of the process. He adds that even afterwards, he continued to analyse information which kept arriving at the Portimão Criminal Investigation Department (DIC).

Quote
a) Guerra & Paz's lawyer, Dra Fátima Esteves, is the first to question the witness.

GP – Considering the investigation, can you affirm whether, because of the book, the PJ stopped collecting information?
RP As I said to the Court, there was no effect on the collection and subsequent examination of new  information on this case.

Quote
GP – Do you know if the investigation was reopened later, with new information?
RP It wasn't formally reopened. However, several pieces of information arrived about possible places where Madeleine could be. Individuals also said they had information. All this was investigated and the proceedings were released to the Portimão Court.

b) GA's lawyer, Dr Santos de Oliveira.


Quote
SO – When the files are shelved, is it normal to continue to process information?
RP says "yes". The police have to examine every piece of information in order to establish whether it is relevant or not.

SO – Was a work team constituted to process information?
RP says they were two officers for that job, both of them having knowledge about the case. The witness then alludes to the Scotland Yard review and says that the processed information was transmitted to the team that worked with SY.



Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Faithlilly on January 12, 2019, 10:46:00 AM
From the trial 8/10/2013.http://mccannvamarallibeltrial.blogspot.com/2013/10/ricardo-paiva.html

b) GA's lawyer, Dr Santos de Oliveira.

Thank you Barrier. So this posted by Brietta is wholly untrue:

‘I believe the situation was resolved as a result of Paiva's testimony at the libel trial in 2010 when he admitted to holding a dossier of more than 2,000 pages containing information on Madeleine's case which had not been properly investigated’

You have to wonder why Brietta chose to distort those unambiguous statements from Paiva.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 12, 2019, 07:15:01 PM
So, say a sighting comes in to the PJ in 2009 from the police in New Zealand of a possible sighting of Madeleine.  Paiva says it is investigated and marks it irrelevant.  On what basis, exactly?  How is the investigation conducted into the sighting?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: jassi on January 12, 2019, 07:44:41 PM
So, say a sighting comes in to the PJ in 2009 from the police in New Zealand of a possible sighting of Madeleine.  Paiva says it is investigated and marks it irrelevant.  On what basis, exactly?  How is the investigation conducted into the sighting?

Do you not think that the NZ police would investigate the claim to their own satisfaction before informing the Portuguese?
To not investigate a claim on their own soil would leave them open to criticism of their professionalism - IMO
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 12, 2019, 08:48:21 PM
Do you not think that the NZ police would investigate the claim to their own satisfaction before informing the Portuguese?
To not investigate a claim on their own soil would leave them open to criticism of their professionalism - IMO
Do you not think if the NZ police investigated it and discovered it was not Madeleine they would have bothered to send it to the PJ?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: jassi on January 12, 2019, 09:27:10 PM
Why not? It's no great hardship to send an email saying ' we had a report of a sighting on Madeleine McCann her in NZ but it turned out to be nothing of the sort'

Even if they'd notified Portugal before doing any investigation, it's not as if Portugal would send anyone out there, outside of their jurisdiction and with no authority, so NZ would have to do the investigation anyway.

Same with any country really, PJ would rely on local police to investigate and report back.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 12, 2019, 11:53:34 PM
Portuguese ignored NZ Madeline McCann 'sighting' - police
3 Mar, 2010 7:00pm  2 minutes to read
A CCTV image from a Dunedin supermarket showing a girl strongly resembling Madeleine McCann. Photo / Supplied
A CCTV image from a Dunedin supermarket showing a girl strongly resembling Madeleine McCann. Photo / Supplied
Herald online
New Zealand police are defending their response after reports of a possible sighting of missing British girl Madeline McCann in a Dunedin shop.

Madeline was four-years-old when she disappeared from her family's holiday apartment in Praia da Luz in Portugal in July 2008 while her parents dined at a restaurant less than 100m away.

A massive worldwide search for her was mounted but with no success.

However, it has just been revealed she may have been seen by a security guard at a Dunedin supermarket in December 2008, but the information was disregarded.

A 2000-page dossier from Portugal police contained a series of sightings from around the world - including CCTV footage from the Dunedin supermarket of a child resembling Madeleine - which were never investigated, Britain's Daily Mail reported today.

The Dunedin footage showed a girl "very like" Madeleine being led into a supermarket by a "portly man in shorts", The man's behaviour aroused the suspicions of a security guard who approached the girl to establish whether she was British.

Although the girl said her name was Hailey, the security guard was convinced the girl was Madeleine and reported the incident to police.

Dunedin police today confirmed they had received the information from the security guard.

Acting Southern District Commander, Inspector David Campbell, said police spoke with the woman to establish what had been seen.

A report was filed and police gathered security footage of the child, who had the appearance of Madeleine McCann, and the family with her, Mr Campbell said.

Police could not get any other information to help with the inquiry.

The file was then forwarded to Interpol, Mr Campbell said.

"The lead jurisdiction, in this case, Portugal, directs how the case progresses and has not asked NZ Police for any follow-up to date."

The file has remained open ever since, Mr Campbell said.

Madeleine's parents Gerry and Kate were reported to be "gutted" and "incensed" that their private investigators were not given access to the information, The Daily Mail reported

"There are instances where information which we think is very credible and worthy of information has not been actioned," Mrs McCann said.

Information that police forces in the United States, Europe and North Africa considered important was also discarded, the dossier revealed.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 12, 2019, 11:58:49 PM
Why not? It's no great hardship to send an email saying ' we had a report of a sighting on Madeleine McCann her in NZ but it turned out to be nothing of the sort'

Even if they'd notified Portugal before doing any investigation, it's not as if Portugal would send anyone out there, outside of their jurisdiction and with no authority, so NZ would have to do the investigation anyway.

Same with any country really, PJ would rely on local police to investigate and report back.
That doesn’t appear to be how it works.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on January 13, 2019, 12:29:34 AM
Girl spotted in New Zealand is not Madeleine McCann, police claim
A young girl resembling Madeleine McCann captured on CCTV film in a New Zealand shop is not the missing girl, police have said.

05 Mar 2010

Officers in the country said they had identified the girl in the image, which was published in a series of British newspapers as a potential sighting of Madeleine.

A statement from New Zealand's National Police headquarters said: ''Police have identified the child and family thought by a retail assistant to be missing British girl Madeleine McCann. She is not the missing British girl.''

The CCTV footage was taken in a Dunedin shop in December 2007, and showed a child hand-in-hand with a stout man wearing a white T-shirt and black shorts.

Details of the incident were included among 2,000 pages of previously secret case documents held by Portuguese police which were released to British newspapers this week.

They contain dozens of possible sightings of Madeleine after she disappeared from her family's holiday flat in Praia da Luz, southern Portugal, in May 2007, just before her fourth birthday.

New Zealand police said previously they had investigated the Dunedin image, but were unable to get any further information.

Acting Southern Police District Commander Inspector Dave Campbell said he was not going to identify the girl in the picture.

He added: ''New Zealand Police are mindful of the stress on the McCann family from possible sightings of their daughter worldwide.''

Other leads in the newly-released Portuguese police dossier include a report of a small blonde girl being dragged along the road to Faro airport in the Algarve - an hour's drive from Praia da Luz - on the night Madeleine vanished.

Another details how a young girl who looked like the missing child was seen being held at gunpoint on a French motorway by a half-naked man in August 2008.

Kate and Gerry McCann's spokesman Clarence Mitchell said all the information should be released to the private detectives hired by the family.

He said: ''Kate and Gerry have made it clear that they were shocked to see the lack of follow-up work done by the Portuguese police since the investigation was shelved.

''All the information in these files must go to the private investigators as they are the only people still looking for Madeleine.''

The McCanns, both 41 and from Rothley, Leicestershire, spoke last month of their frustration that police had failed to investigate new leads in their daughter's disappearance.

Mrs McCann said: ''It's heartbreaking, to be honest.''

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/7365443/Girl-spotted-in-New-Zealand-is-not-Madeleine-McCann-police-claim.html
___________________________________________________________________



The files to which Paiva referred in court contained information on the Dunedin sighting which was sent to Portugal via Interpol and there it sat ignored until released to the McCann lawyers in 2010 by order of the judge.


___________________________________________________________________

Portuguese ignored NZ Madeline McCann 'sighting' - police
3 Mar, 2010
Snip
A 2000-page dossier from Portugal police contained a series of sightings from around the world - including CCTV footage from the Dunedin supermarket of a child resembling Madeleine - which were never investigated, Britain's Daily Mail reported today.

The Dunedin footage showed a girl "very like" Madeleine being led into a supermarket by a "portly man in shorts", The man's behaviour aroused the suspicions of a security guard who approached the girl to establish whether she was British.

Although the girl said her name was Hailey, the security guard was convinced the girl was Madeleine and reported the incident to police.

Dunedin police today confirmed they had received the information from the security guard.

Acting Southern District Commander, Inspector David Campbell, said police spoke with the woman to establish what had been seen.

A report was filed and police gathered security footage of the child, who had the appearance of Madeleine McCann, and the family with her, Mr Campbell said.

Police could not get any other information to help with the inquiry.

The file was then forwarded to Interpol, Mr Campbell said.

"The lead jurisdiction, in this case, Portugal, directs how the case progresses and has not asked NZ Police for any follow-up to date."

The file has remained open ever since, Mr Campbell said.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10629715
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Faithlilly on January 13, 2019, 12:34:08 AM
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/7365443/Girl-spotted-in-New-Zealand-is-not-Madeleine-McCann-police-claim.html


‘Girl spotted in New Zealand is not Madeleine McCann, police claim
A young girl resembling Madeleine McCann captured on CCTV film in a New Zealand shop is not the missing girl, police have said.

Officers in the country said they had identified the girl in the image, which was published in a series of British newspapers as a potential sighting of Madeleine.

A statement from New Zealand's National Police headquarters said: ''Police have identified the child and family thought by a retail assistant to be missing British girl Madeleine McCann. She is not the missing British girl.''
The CCTV footage was taken in a Dunedin shop in December 2007, and showed a child hand-in-hand with a stout man wearing a white T-shirt and black shorts.’

So a bit of a storm in a teacup. The child was identified and wasn’t Madeleine. I’m sure this information would have been passed on to the Portuguese police via Interpol.

The bald truth is that it has never been proven that one single sighting was not followed up, if humanly possible, either by the country where the sighting occurred and the information passed to the Portuguese police or by the Portuguese police themselves.

You really have to wonder who benefited from misinformation being spread in this way ?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Faithlilly on January 13, 2019, 12:36:37 AM
Girl spotted in New Zealand is not Madeleine McCann, police claim
A young girl resembling Madeleine McCann captured on CCTV film in a New Zealand shop is not the missing girl, police have said.

05 Mar 2010

Officers in the country said they had identified the girl in the image, which was published in a series of British newspapers as a potential sighting of Madeleine.

A statement from New Zealand's National Police headquarters said: ''Police have identified the child and family thought by a retail assistant to be missing British girl Madeleine McCann. She is not the missing British girl.''

The CCTV footage was taken in a Dunedin shop in December 2007, and showed a child hand-in-hand with a stout man wearing a white T-shirt and black shorts.

Details of the incident were included among 2,000 pages of previously secret case documents held by Portuguese police which were released to British newspapers this week.

They contain dozens of possible sightings of Madeleine after she disappeared from her family's holiday flat in Praia da Luz, southern Portugal, in May 2007, just before her fourth birthday.

New Zealand police said previously they had investigated the Dunedin image, but were unable to get any further information.

Acting Southern Police District Commander Inspector Dave Campbell said he was not going to identify the girl in the picture.

He added: ''New Zealand Police are mindful of the stress on the McCann family from possible sightings of their daughter worldwide.''

Other leads in the newly-released Portuguese police dossier include a report of a small blonde girl being dragged along the road to Faro airport in the Algarve - an hour's drive from Praia da Luz - on the night Madeleine vanished.

Another details how a young girl who looked like the missing child was seen being held at gunpoint on a French motorway by a half-naked man in August 2008.

Kate and Gerry McCann's spokesman Clarence Mitchell said all the information should be released to the private detectives hired by the family.

He said: ''Kate and Gerry have made it clear that they were shocked to see the lack of follow-up work done by the Portuguese police since the investigation was shelved.

''All the information in these files must go to the private investigators as they are the only people still looking for Madeleine.''

The McCanns, both 41 and from Rothley, Leicestershire, spoke last month of their frustration that police had failed to investigate new leads in their daughter's disappearance.

Mrs McCann said: ''It's heartbreaking, to be honest.''

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/7365443/Girl-spotted-in-New-Zealand-is-not-Madeleine-McCann-police-claim.html
___________________________________________________________________



The files to which Paiva referred in court contained information on the Dunedin sighting which was sent to Portugal via Interpol and there it sat ignored until released to the McCann lawyers in 2010 by order of the judge.


___________________________________________________________________

Portuguese ignored NZ Madeline McCann 'sighting' - police
3 Mar, 2010
Snip
A 2000-page dossier from Portugal police contained a series of sightings from around the world - including CCTV footage from the Dunedin supermarket of a child resembling Madeleine - which were never investigated, Britain's Daily Mail reported today.

The Dunedin footage showed a girl "very like" Madeleine being led into a supermarket by a "portly man in shorts", The man's behaviour aroused the suspicions of a security guard who approached the girl to establish whether she was British.

Although the girl said her name was Hailey, the security guard was convinced the girl was Madeleine and reported the incident to police.

Dunedin police today confirmed they had received the information from the security guard.

Acting Southern District Commander, Inspector David Campbell, said police spoke with the woman to establish what had been seen.

A report was filed and police gathered security footage of the child, who had the appearance of Madeleine McCann, and the family with her, Mr Campbell said.

Police could not get any other information to help with the inquiry.

The file was then forwarded to Interpol, Mr Campbell said.

"The lead jurisdiction, in this case, Portugal, directs how the case progresses and has not asked NZ Police for any follow-up to date."

The file has remained open ever since, Mr Campbell said.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10629715

Please remove your post which misquoted Paiva.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on January 13, 2019, 12:44:01 AM
Portuguese ignored NZ Madeline McCann 'sighting' - police
3 Mar, 2010 7:00pm  2 minutes to read
A CCTV image from a Dunedin supermarket showing a girl strongly resembling Madeleine McCann. Photo / Supplied
A CCTV image from a Dunedin supermarket showing a girl strongly resembling Madeleine McCann. Photo / Supplied
Herald online
New Zealand police are defending their response after reports of a possible sighting of missing British girl Madeline McCann in a Dunedin shop.

Madeline was four-years-old when she disappeared from her family's holiday apartment in Praia da Luz in Portugal in July 2008 while her parents dined at a restaurant less than 100m away.

A massive worldwide search for her was mounted but with no success.

However, it has just been revealed she may have been seen by a security guard at a Dunedin supermarket in December 2008, but the information was disregarded.

A 2000-page dossier from Portugal police contained a series of sightings from around the world - including CCTV footage from the Dunedin supermarket of a child resembling Madeleine - which were never investigated, Britain's Daily Mail reported today.

The Dunedin footage showed a girl "very like" Madeleine being led into a supermarket by a "portly man in shorts", The man's behaviour aroused the suspicions of a security guard who approached the girl to establish whether she was British.

Although the girl said her name was Hailey, the security guard was convinced the girl was Madeleine and reported the incident to police.

Dunedin police today confirmed they had received the information from the security guard.

Acting Southern District Commander, Inspector David Campbell, said police spoke with the woman to establish what had been seen.

A report was filed and police gathered security footage of the child, who had the appearance of Madeleine McCann, and the family with her, Mr Campbell said.

Police could not get any other information to help with the inquiry.

The file was then forwarded to Interpol, Mr Campbell said.

"The lead jurisdiction, in this case, Portugal, directs how the case progresses and has not asked NZ Police for any follow-up to date."

The file has remained open ever since, Mr Campbell said.

Madeleine's parents Gerry and Kate were reported to be "gutted" and "incensed" that their private investigators were not given access to the information, The Daily Mail reported

"There are instances where information which we think is very credible and worthy of information has not been actioned," Mrs McCann said.

Information that police forces in the United States, Europe and North Africa considered important was also discarded, the dossier revealed.

I found it ... you found it before me ... seems easy enough.

However as far as the context of the thread is concerned I think we can categorically state that it is laughable to make any comparison with the portrayal of the conduct of the English police and the actuality of the Portuguese and Madeleine's case.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Faithlilly on January 13, 2019, 12:53:31 AM
I found it ... you found it before me ... seems easy enough.

However as far as the context of the thread is concerned I think we can categorically state that it is laughable to make any comparison with the portrayal of the conduct of the English police and the actuality of the Portuguese and Madeleine's case.

And both your reports where superseded by the report posted by myself in which NZ officials said the little girl was not Madeleine. Further if the very sighting the newspapers used to prove sightings hadn’t been followed up by the Portuguese was demonstrably false what of the veracity of the claim that the other 1999 hadn’t been either
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 13, 2019, 08:15:50 AM
And both your reports where superseded by the report posted by myself in which NZ officials said the little girl was not Madeleine. Further if the very sighting the newspapers used to prove sightings hadn’t been followed up by the Portuguese was demonstrably false what of the veracity of the claim that the other 1999 hadn’t been either
That’s beside the point.  At the time of the sighting the PJ ignored the information from NZ.  THAT’S the point.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on January 13, 2019, 08:45:11 AM
Girl spotted in New Zealand is not Madeleine McCann, police claim


Strange headline, the police have no need to claim anything,she was either Madeleine or not, as the case was.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on January 13, 2019, 09:07:57 AM
However as far as the context of the thread is concerned I think we can categorically state that it is laughable to make any comparison with the portrayal of the conduct of the English police and the actuality of the Portuguese and Madeleine's case.


What would be easier to state is the laughable image that the press actually have a knowledge of just what is happening and happened to be relied upon as a certifiable cite,its a case of he said,they said, I said.

Lets go back to almost the very beginning, where a story in the Telegraph  still accessible today of Madeleine died from a sleeping tablet overdose, is that true?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 13, 2019, 09:08:25 AM
I find it difficult to believe that people expected the PJ to investugate every so-called sighting of Madeleine McCann. According to The Sun there were over 8,000 of them in 101 countries. The McCanns asked the world to look for Madeleine and people responded but that really wasn't helpful in my opinion.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 13, 2019, 09:09:30 AM
I find it difficult to believe that people expected the PJ to investugate every so-called sighting of Madeleine McCann. According to The Sun there were over 8,000 of them in 101 countries. The McCanns asked the world to look for Madeleine and people responded but that really wasn't helpful in my opinion.
The Met did it so why shouldn’t the PJ?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on January 13, 2019, 09:14:09 AM
The Met did it so why shouldn’t the PJ?

According to the sun.
Rowley back in 2017 said they had 600 people of interest at one stage,not quite the 8,000 but hey oh! lets not quibble over a few thousand.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 13, 2019, 09:26:02 AM
I found it ... you found it before me ... seems easy enough.

However as far as the context of the thread is concerned I think we can categorically state that it is laughable to make any comparison with the portrayal of the conduct of the English police and the actuality of the Portuguese and Madeleine's case.

The comparisons between the UK police and the Portuguese police are indeed laughable. The forces work under different legal systems, are organised differently, meet different needs and use different tools. The only thing they have in common is that both make mistakes as do all police forces.

Looking at these two specific cases we know that the UK police made a mistake which probably cost lives. The PJ have been accused of making mistakes but I have yet to see proof that they did, let alone that their mistakes were significant.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on January 13, 2019, 09:30:22 AM
The comparisons between the UK police and the Portuguese police are indeed laughable. The forces work under different legal systems, are organised differently, meet different needs and use different tools. The only thing they have in common is that both make mistakes as do all police forces.

Looking at these two specific cases we know that the UK police made a mistake which probably cost lives. The PJ have been accused of making mistakes but I have yet to see proof that they did, let alone that their mistakes were significant.

The UK possibly made two mistakes,the failure to keep a drinks carton which could have had the DNA of a second person on it was the other.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 13, 2019, 09:37:07 AM
According to the sun.
Rowley back in 2017 said they had 600 people of interest at one stage,not quite the 8,000 but hey oh! lets not quibble over a few thousand.
Having presumably looked at and discarded the rest.  You think not following up 600 people of interest is a good reflection on the PJ? 
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 13, 2019, 09:38:39 AM
The comparisons between the UK police and the Portuguese police are indeed laughable. The forces work under different legal systems, are organised differently, meet different needs and use different tools. The only thing they have in common is that both make mistakes as do all police forces.

Looking at these two specific cases we know that the UK police made a mistake which probably cost lives. The PJ have been accused of making mistakes but I have yet to see proof that they did, let alone that their mistakes were significant.
laughable.  Even Amaral concedes they did but you seem to think they were practically perfect.  Laughable.  Why aren’t you up in arms about the “lives lost” by the Met?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: jassi on January 13, 2019, 09:49:59 AM
Having presumably looked at and discarded the rest.  You think not following up 600 people of interest is a good reflection on the PJ?

Following 600 leads, the vast majority, if not all of which went nowhere could be seen as poor selection process by OG
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on January 13, 2019, 09:50:42 AM
Having presumably looked at and discarded the rest.  You think not following up 600 people of interest is a good reflection on the PJ?


Who says they weren't followed up,Rowley certainly never did.
Read Paivas testimony in the McCann v Amaral  he said that .Q&A

Quote
O – When the files are shelved, is it normal to continue to process information?
RP says "yes". The police have to examine every piece of information in order to establish whether it is relevant or not.

SO – Was a work team constituted to process information?
RP says they were two officers for that job, both of them having knowledge about the case. The witness then alludes to the Scotland Yard review and says that the processed information was transmitted to the team that worked with SY.


So who says that information was not followed up?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on January 13, 2019, 09:51:42 AM
Following 600 leads, the vast majority, if not all of which went nowhere could be seen as poor selection process by OG


Narrowed down to 4 from Luz,world wide mystery tour indeed!
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 13, 2019, 10:04:27 AM
Following 600 leads, the vast majority, if not all of which went nowhere could be seen as poor selection process by OG
Or it can be seen as being diligent, thorough and leaving no stone unturned.  Do you prefer your police to just consign leads to the filing cabinet on the basis that “it’s probably nothing”?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 13, 2019, 10:05:29 AM

Who says they weren't followed up,Rowley certainly never did.
Read Paivas testimony in the McCann v Amaral  he said that .Q&A


So who says that information was not followed up?
which leads me back to the question I asked yesterday.  How was a sighting in NZ, sent in by NZ cops followed up?  Over to you.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: jassi on January 13, 2019, 10:08:04 AM
Or it can be seen as being diligent, thorough and leaving no stone unturned.  Do you prefer your police to just consign leads to the filing cabinet on the basis that “it’s probably nothing”?

I think the outcomes support the idea that it was nothing.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 13, 2019, 10:09:23 AM

Narrowed down to 4 from Luz,world wide mystery tour indeed!
In your opinion were the Met wrong to follow up on these leads that seemed to have been left not properly investigated by the PJ?  Should the Met have said to themselves: the PJ cast an eye over these sightings, stamped them “not relevant” so let’s take their word for it and ignore them too”?  Would that have been “best practice “ in your view?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 13, 2019, 10:10:17 AM
I think the outcomes support the idea that it was nothing.
Do you inderstand the concept of leaving no stone unturned, or do you think stones should be left to lie as they are as there’s probably nothing under them?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on January 13, 2019, 10:12:36 AM
In your opinion were the Met wrong to follow up on these leads that seemed to have been left not properly investigated by the PJ?  Should the Met have said to themselves: the PJ cast an eye over these sightings, stamped them “not relevant” so let’s take their word for it and ignore them too”?  Would that have been “best practice “ in your view?


Best practice would be not to get involved in something they have no jurisdiction over.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 13, 2019, 10:13:46 AM
So on the one hand we have people seemingly in awe and admiration of the diligence and dogged determination of Colin Sutton to leave no stone unturned in his pursuit of justice, on the other we have nothing but sneering contempt for the Met in their attempt to do the same for Madeleine.  Of course Sutton got a lucky break, without it, perhaps his efforts would also be subject to criticism and contempt.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on January 13, 2019, 10:15:27 AM
In your opinion were the Met wrong to follow up on these leads that seemed to have been left not properly investigated by the PJ?  Should the Met have said to themselves: the PJ cast an eye over these sightings, stamped them “not relevant” so let’s take their word for it and ignore them too”?  Would that have been “best practice “ in your view?


40,000 documents OG started with,so once again what was not investigated by the PJ and on whose say so?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 13, 2019, 10:18:12 AM

40,000 documents OG started with,so once again what was not investigated by the PJ and on whose say so?
On the say so of those in possession of the 40000 documents, unles it is your firm belief that the Met followed up leads already thoroughly investigated by the PJ and just invented 600 persons of interest?  Of course this is what the tin foil hat brigade belief, are you one of them?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Faithlilly on January 13, 2019, 10:26:12 AM

40,000 documents OG started with,so once again what was not investigated by the PJ and on whose say so?

The Met, we are told, did not look at the parents. The PJ, it is surmised by supporters, did not follow up a citing that proved not to be Madeleine. In a sane world what would have hampered the search for the truth more ?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 13, 2019, 10:27:20 AM
laughable.  Even Amaral concedes they did but you seem to think they were practically perfect.  Laughable.  Why aren’t you up in arms about the “lives lost” by the Met?

I think you'll find if you actually read my post that I said the PJ made mistakes.  My opinion about what those mistakes were probably differs from yours, the McCann's, Amaral's and the media's however. It is, after all, opinion rather than fact. None of the sightings, for example, has been shown to be significant as yet. No-one knows if the Estrada CCTV would have been useful or not. It all seems to consist of maybes.

The UK police, on the other hand, made a mistake which could have stopped a killer. As most police forces make mistakes why would anyone be 'up in arms' about that? Amelie Delagrange's parents very graciously acknowledged that people make mistakes, even tragic ones.

PS I don't think it was The Met who neglected to view that tape.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on January 13, 2019, 10:27:46 AM
On the say so of those in possession of the 40000 documents, unles it is your firm belief that the Met followed up leads already thoroughly investigated by the PJ and just invented 600 persons of interest?  Of course this is what the tin foil hat brigade belief, are you one of them?


Seeing has OG haven't advanced past the stage of how did she leave 5a,its hard to argue against your summary.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 13, 2019, 10:28:50 AM
There was a sighting of a couple with a young female child at 6am in Lagos Marina on the 4th May 2007.  This sighting was marked “not relevant to the investigation “ by Ricardo Paiva.  On what basis was it marked irrelevant?  What actual follow up did the PJ conduct?  Were the couple ever tracked down and interviewed?  These are the sorts of questions I would have had if I’d been leading Operation Grange.  Or should I just have said to myself “ nah, not worth the bother”?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 13, 2019, 10:30:18 AM

Seeing has OG haven't advanced past the stage of how did she leave 5a,its hard to argue against your summary.
??? Oh for a tiny sliver of logical thinking on this thread. 
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on January 13, 2019, 10:31:43 AM
The Met, we are told, did not look at the parents. The PJ, it is surmised by supporters, did not follow up a citing that proved not to be Madeleine. In a sane world what would have hampered the search for the truth more ?

Rowley did say that the Parents had been dealt with in the initial investigation, an endorsement of the PJ,what was in the rest of the files that OG could glean anything of worth to further it,zilch it would seem.Its why its where its at today.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 13, 2019, 10:32:52 AM
I think you'll find if you actually read my post that I said the PJ made mistakes.  My opinion about what those mistakes were probably differs from yours, the McCann's, Amaral's and the media's however. It is, after all, opinion rather than fact. None of the sightings, for example, has been shown to be significant as yet. No-one knows if the Estrada CCTV would have been useful or not. It all seems to consist of maybes.

The UK police, on the other hand, made a mistake which could have stopped a killer. As most police forces make mistakes why would anyone be 'up in arms' about that? Amelie Delagrange's parents very graciously acknowledged that people make mistakes, even tragic ones.

PS I don't think it was The Met who neglected to view that tape.
”No one knows” does not cancel out the fact that no one did.  You seem to be saying that if all the leads and CCTV were followed up and proved to be nothing then that means the PJ didn’t make any mistakes?  How in any sane world does thst make sense?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on January 13, 2019, 10:34:52 AM
There was a sighting of a couple with a young female child at 6am in Lagos Marina on the 4th May 2007.  This sighting was marked “not relevant to the investigation “ by Ricardo Paiva.  On what basis was it marked irrelevant?  What actual follow up did the PJ conduct?  Were the couple ever tracked down and interviewed?  These are the sorts of questions I would have had if I’d been leading Operation Grange.  Or should I just have said to myself “ nah, not worth the bother”?


Perhaps the child bore no resemblance to Madeleine.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Faithlilly on January 13, 2019, 10:36:20 AM
Rowley did say that the Parents had been dealt with in the initial investigation, an endorsement of the PJ,what was in the rest of the files that OG could glean anything of worth to further it,zilch it would seem.Its why its where its at today.

Yet Sutton says the investigation should have cleared the ground beneath their feet and that wasn’t done as the McCanns weren’t looked at. So who to believe ?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 13, 2019, 10:48:02 AM
So on the one hand we have people seemingly in awe and admiration of the diligence and dogged determination of Colin Sutton to leave no stone unturned in his pursuit of justice, on the other we have nothing but sneering contempt for the Met in their attempt to do the same for Madeleine.  Of course Sutton got a lucky break, without it, perhaps his efforts would also be subject to criticism and contempt.

The only sneering and contempt I have seen on this forum is that directed at the PJ, the Portuguese legal system and their judges. I have seen criticism of the Met but why not, if people think they got it wrong? No police force should begin an investigation with a restrictive remit on my opinion.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Faithlilly on January 13, 2019, 10:58:06 AM
The only sneering and contempt I have seen on this forum is that directed at the PJ, the Portuguese legal system and their judges. I have seen criticism of the Met but why not, if people think they got it wrong? No police force should begin an investigation with a restrictive remit on my opinion.

What was the remit for the investigation? Was it the same as the review ?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 13, 2019, 10:58:37 AM
The only sneering and contempt I have seen on this forum is that directed at the PJ, the Portuguese legal system and their judges. I have seen criticism of the Met but why not, if people think they got it wrong? No police force should begin an investigation with a restrictive remit on my opinion.

Colin Sutton has also questioned the accuracy of the statements due to the way they were taken.... Why do you want to ignore that criticism
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 13, 2019, 11:03:29 AM

Perhaps the child bore no resemblance to Madeleine.
According to whom?  Did the police find her?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Faithlilly on January 13, 2019, 11:04:38 AM
Colin Sutton has also questioned the accuracy of the statements due to the way they were taken.... Why do you want to ignore that criticism

This is what Sutton is reported as saying.

‘Former Met detective chief inspector Collin Sutton has recently called for fresh interviews be undertaken with all the key British witnesses involved in the Madeleine McCann case.

Collin Sutton, "We’re talking about interviews given by the McCanns and friends through an interpreter, written down in Portuguese and then translated back into English so officers from Grange can read them. The room for error would be enormous.”

Madeleine McCann’s parents and ‘Tapas Seven’ have NEVER been formally interviewed as witnesses by Brit cops – as police hunt ‘person of significance’. Met detectives have been relying on Portuguese transcripts of formal interviews with key witnesses, including Maddie's parents.


https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4588686/madeleine-mccann-parents-kate-gerry-tapas-seven-never-quizzed-british-police/

Very sensible observations.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 13, 2019, 11:06:05 AM
There was a sighting of a couple with a young female child at 6am in Lagos Marina on the 4th May 2007.  This sighting was marked “not relevant to the investigation “ by Ricardo Paiva.  On what basis was it marked irrelevant?  What actual follow up did the PJ conduct?  Were the couple ever tracked down and interviewed?  These are the sorts of questions I would have had if I’d been leading Operation Grange.  Or should I just have said to myself “ nah, not worth the bother”?

A s

Please provide a cite for Paiva marking this sighting 'not relevant'.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 13, 2019, 11:06:16 AM
The Met, we are told, did not look at the parents. The PJ, it is surmised by supporters, did not follow up a citing that proved not to be Madeleine. In a sane world what would have hampered the search for the truth more ?
Unlike all the evidence that poured in to the PJ that Madeleine might be alive somewhere in the world the PJ thoroughly investigated the McCanns, they were easy meat, seeing as how they were there on the PJ’s doorstep offering themselves up for thorough investigation, no need to give serious consideration to any other suspects, these ones will do nicely, ta.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: jassi on January 13, 2019, 11:07:38 AM
Unlike all the evidence that poured in to the PJ that Madeleine might be alive somewhere in the world the PJ thoroughly investigated the McCanns, they were easy meat, seeing as how they were there on the PJ’s doorstep offering themselves up for thorough investigation, no need to give serious consideration to any other suspects, these ones will do nicely, ta.


In your opinion.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 13, 2019, 11:07:56 AM
The only sneering and contempt I have seen on this forum is that directed at the PJ, the Portuguese legal system and their judges. I have seen criticism of the Met but why not, if people think they got it wrong? No police force should begin an investigation with a restrictive remit on my opinion.
I wasn’t restricting my comment about sneering contempt to this forum, though there’s been plenty here too.  You really need to go to Specsavers IMO.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 13, 2019, 11:08:49 AM
A s

Please provide a cite for Paiva marking this sighting 'not relevant'.
I thought you were a scholar of the Files?  Go and find it yourself, you probably know the page number better than I do.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 13, 2019, 11:10:24 AM
This is what Sutton is reported as saying.

‘Former Met detective chief inspector Collin Sutton has recently called for fresh interviews be undertaken with all the key British witnesses involved in the Madeleine McCann case.

Collin Sutton, "We’re talking about interviews given by the McCanns and friends through an interpreter, written down in Portuguese and then translated back into English so officers from Grange can read them. The room for error would be enormous.”

Madeleine McCann’s parents and ‘Tapas Seven’ have NEVER been formally interviewed as witnesses by Brit cops – as police hunt ‘person of significance’. Met detectives have been relying on Portuguese transcripts of formal interviews with key witnesses, including Maddie's parents.


https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4588686/madeleine-mccann-parents-kate-gerry-tapas-seven-never-quizzed-british-police/

Very sensible observations.

Collin Sutton, "We’re talking about interviews given by the McCanns and friends through an interpreter, written down in Portuguese and then translated back into English so officers from Grange can read them. The room for error would be enormous.”
And yet when Davel says this you all fall about sneering and scoffing.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 13, 2019, 11:11:54 AM

In your opinion.
Does your opinion differ?  Do you think the PJ did not thoroughly investigate the McCanns?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 13, 2019, 11:18:57 AM
This is what Sutton is reported as saying.

‘Former Met detective chief inspector Collin Sutton has recently called for fresh interviews be undertaken with all the key British witnesses involved in the Madeleine McCann case.

Collin Sutton, "We’re talking about interviews given by the McCanns and friends through an interpreter, written down in Portuguese and then translated back into English so officers from Grange can read them. The room for error would be enormous.”

Madeleine McCann’s parents and ‘Tapas Seven’ have NEVER been formally interviewed as witnesses by Brit cops – as police hunt ‘person of significance’. Met detectives have been relying on Portuguese transcripts of formal interviews with key witnesses, including Maddie's parents.


https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4588686/madeleine-mccann-parents-kate-gerry-tapas-seven-never-quizzed-british-police/

Very sensible observations.
Sutton says the McCann's have not been formally interviewed... Not that they haven't been interviewed
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Faithlilly on January 13, 2019, 11:26:42 AM

In your opinion.

This argument makes so sense. The McCanns from almost day one had the support of the media and also impressive legal and governmental support. Murat, on the other hand, didn’t. If a pasty was to be found surely Murat would have fitted the bill perfectly.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on January 13, 2019, 11:30:12 AM
According to whom?  Did the police find her?
There is a page missing,perhaps that covers your concerns.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Angelo222 on January 13, 2019, 11:31:19 AM
This is what Sutton is reported as saying.

‘Former Met detective chief inspector Collin Sutton has recently called for fresh interviews be undertaken with all the key British witnesses involved in the Madeleine McCann case.

Collin Sutton, "We’re talking about interviews given by the McCanns and friends through an interpreter, written down in Portuguese and then translated back into English so officers from Grange can read them. The room for error would be enormous.”

Madeleine McCann’s parents and ‘Tapas Seven’ have NEVER been formally interviewed as witnesses by Brit cops – as police hunt ‘person of significance’. Met detectives have been relying on Portuguese transcripts of formal interviews with key witnesses, including Maddie's parents.


https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4588686/madeleine-mccann-parents-kate-gerry-tapas-seven-never-quizzed-british-police/

Very sensible observations.

I don't think they mistranslated the "No Comment" replies by Kate McCann though.  I still find her responses to all those questions appalling given the circumstances.  What did she think she was going to be charged with?  Child neglect??
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Angelo222 on January 13, 2019, 11:34:20 AM
Sutton says the McCann's have not been formally interviewed... Not that they haven't been interviewed

Image the public debate if SY were to take them in for questioning.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 13, 2019, 11:34:30 AM
I don't think they mistranslated the "No Comment" replies by Kate McCann though.  I still find her responses to all those questions appalling given the circumstances.  What did she think she was going to be charged with?  Child neglect??

I think she was absolutely  correct in replying no comment for reasons already discussed at length
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 13, 2019, 11:35:27 AM
Image the public debate if SY were to take them in for questioning.

I would say they have already been questioned... But not under caution
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: jassi on January 13, 2019, 11:37:03 AM
Does your opinion differ?  Do you think the PJ did not thoroughly investigate the McCanns?


I'm surprised you can bring yourself to admit the PJ did anything thoroughly.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 13, 2019, 11:40:29 AM
This argument makes so sense. The McCanns from almost day one had the support of the media and also impressive legal and governmental support. Murat, on the other hand, didn’t. If a pasty was to be found surely Murat would have fitted the bill perfectly.
The McCanns were reviled in the Portuguese media from day one weren’t they?  Perhaps you supply links to all the positive support the McCanns enjoyed in Portugal (the country in which the PJ were operating in, in case you forgot).
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 13, 2019, 11:41:18 AM
There is a page missing,perhaps that covers your concerns.
@)(++(* is that the one which describes how the family were seen getting on their unicorn and riding off into the sunset?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 13, 2019, 11:41:56 AM

I'm surprised you can bring yourself to admit the PJ did anything thoroughly.
They thoroughly cocked up.  IMO  8)--))
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on January 13, 2019, 11:42:22 AM
According to whom?  Did the police find her?


From the files.

Quote
As a general opinion on this subject, it is my impression that where we have no subsequent written paperwork relating to arrival and embarkations of certain boats, the PM (maritime police) followed up with port surveillance footage (CCTV), or by direct contact through radio/GPS or even ship-to-ship contact, or with visits by officers to port/marina authorities.
Rivers, coastal inlets and beaches were also visited and local residents and holiday makers in those places were questioned. One vessel was tracked through Lisbon up to Nazar?on the Portuguese coast so, in general terms, I don't think anything was overlooked.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on January 13, 2019, 11:43:09 AM
@)(++(* is that the one which describes how the family were seen getting on their unicorn and riding off into the sunset?


You have knowledge of what is missing?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 13, 2019, 12:00:54 PM
I thought you were a scholar of the Files?  Go and find it yourself, you probably know the page number better than I do.

As you're the one making the claim the onus is on you to provide the appropriate evidence or withdraw the claim.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on January 13, 2019, 12:20:10 PM

From the files.

I thought one boat went missing altogether.  They have no paperwork, so how would they know?

And who would see anything on beaches and in inlets in the dark?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 13, 2019, 12:25:08 PM

From the files.
Please can you tell me how that (IMO non sequitur of a reference) answers the question of how the police decided the girl did not look like Madeleine..?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 13, 2019, 12:26:37 PM
As you're the one making the claim the onus is on you to provide the appropriate evidence or withdraw the claim.
Tell you what.  I will supply the reference but only if you agree to acknowledge my efforts and thank me for providing it, instead of ignoring it as usually happens, deal?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on January 13, 2019, 12:30:14 PM
Please can you tell me how that (IMO non sequitur of a reference) answers the question of how the police decided the girl did not look like Madeleine..?

As it crossed your mind that some one could well have given a description or that the girl and family were known to those that needed to know.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on January 13, 2019, 12:31:24 PM
I thought one boat went missing altogether.  They have no paperwork, so how would they know?

And who would see anything on beaches and in inlets in the dark?

VS was on about the marina in daylight,not isolated beaches and inlets.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on January 13, 2019, 12:32:28 PM
I thought one boat went missing altogether.  They have no paperwork, so how would they know?

And who would see anything on beaches and in inlets in the dark?

In that case how does any one know it went missing,or is it another forum/internet myth.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 13, 2019, 12:38:55 PM
As it crossed your mind that some one could well have given a description or that the girl and family were known to those that needed to know.
Lots f things have crossed my mind, where is any evidence that ANY of it crossed the mind of those that mattered, ie: those investiating Madeleine’s disappearance?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 13, 2019, 12:41:23 PM

You have knowledge of what is missing?
No, but the Met do and that is why they had reams of leads to follow up, geddit now?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on January 13, 2019, 12:46:49 PM
VS was on about the marina in daylight,not isolated beaches and inlets.

So the boat lurked about until dark.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on January 13, 2019, 12:59:56 PM
So the boat lurked about until dark.


What boat?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on January 13, 2019, 01:01:51 PM

What boat?

I can't say.  It might be libellous as I can't prove it.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 13, 2019, 01:02:16 PM
Does your opinion differ?  Do you think the PJ did not thoroughly investigate the McCanns?

The PJ failed to confirm the timeline at the beginning. I can think of some questions they could have asked which would have helped them to do that.

1. Question the Irwins and the Sperreys who were booked into the Tapas at 8.30 and 9 pm respectively.
2. Question the Executive Chef again about his testimony and check if he had witnesses as to the times he went to and returned from the Tapas.
3. Check the statement of Barend Weijdom and his alleged meeting with Paul Wortelboer.
4. Check who informed the nannies at the creche about Madeleine's disappearance and find out how she knew.
5. Find out which Mark Warner employee went into the Duke de Jaollande bar at 10.15 and asked for help with the search.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 13, 2019, 01:05:50 PM
The PJ failed to confirm the timeline at the beginning. I can think of some questions they could have asked which would have helped them to do that.

1. Question the Irwins and the Sperreys who were booked into the Tapas at 8.30 and 9 pm respectively.
2. Question the Executive Chef again about his testimony and check if he had witnesses as to the times he went to and returned from the Tapas.
3. Check the statement of Barend Weijdom and his alleged meeting with Paul Wortelboer.
4. Check who informed the nannies at the creche about Madeleine's disappearance and find out how she knew.
5. Find out which Mark Warner employee went into the Duke de Jaollande bar at 10.15 and asked for help with the search.
To quote Barrier, “there are pages missing, how do you know they didn’t”?  LOL.  But seriously, how do you think the answers to ANY of those questions would have helped establish the guilt or innocence of the McCanns?  Still at least you seem to be conceding that the PJ weren’t very thorough, so not thorough in trying to nail their key suspects, it stands to reason they were even less thorough in investigating possible leads into an abduction doesn’t it.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on January 13, 2019, 01:23:05 PM
No, but the Met do and that is why they had reams of leads to follow up, geddit now?


Quote for the reams of leads?


Rowley never describes them as such.


Quote
And of course at one stage we had 600 people who at one stage have been of interest to the enquiry, that doesn’t mean that they are suspects, people who were suspicious at the time or have a track record which makes us concerned about them, sifting, which focused the enquiry increasingly and when you’re doing this then across a continent and with multiple languages and having to build working relationships with the Portuguese, you put that together and that takes real time. 
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on January 13, 2019, 01:26:19 PM
I can't say.  It might be libellous as I can't prove it.


Ah! the mysterons.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 13, 2019, 01:38:20 PM

Quote for the reams of leads?


Rowley never describes them as such.
600 persons of interest to follow up is "reams" in my book.  What is "reams" in your book?  Officially a ream is 500 pages btw. 
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 13, 2019, 02:21:25 PM
To quote Barrier, “there are pages missing, how do you know they didn’t”?  LOL.  But seriously, how do you think the answers to ANY of those questions would have helped establish the guilt or innocence of the McCanns?  Still at least you seem to be conceding that the PJ weren’t very thorough, so not thorough in trying to nail their key suspects, it stands to reason they were even less thorough in investigating possible leads into an abduction doesn’t it.

I have no reason to believe that the PJ withheld statements taken from local people. Rebelo certainly thought the timeline was significant, and I agree with him. I have never said the PJ were thorough, so I'm not conceding anything. I have simply rebutted some of the more inventive or nebulous reasons people have relied on for criticising them.

Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 13, 2019, 02:32:04 PM
I have no reason to believe that the PJ withheld statements taken from local people. Rebelo certainly thought the timeline was significant, and I agree with him. I have never said the PJ were thorough, so I'm not conceding anything. I have simply rebutted some of the more inventive or nebulous reasons people have relied on for criticising them.
Upon what basis then did the police dismiss the sighting of two adults with a young female child on the mornng after Madeleine's disappearance then?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 13, 2019, 02:34:43 PM
I have no reason to believe that the PJ withheld statements taken from local people. Rebelo certainly thought the timeline was significant, and I agree with him. I have never said the PJ were thorough, so I'm not conceding anything. I have simply rebutted some of the more inventive or nebulous reasons people have relied on for criticising them.
If the PJ were not thorough is that not a good reason for criticising them, or must we keep quiet and defer to them?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on January 13, 2019, 04:02:53 PM

What would be easier to state is the laughable image that the press actually have a knowledge of just what is happening and happened to be relied upon as a certifiable cite,its a case of he said,they said, I said.

Lets go back to almost the very beginning, where a story in the Telegraph  still accessible today of Madeleine died from a sleeping tablet overdose, is that true?

It is true insofar as the Telegraph reported the lies reported in the French press which emanated from the lies the Judicial Police were spreading at the time.

Snip
A source at the newspaper claimed: "We are not simply repeating rumours carried in other papers. This is not a theory, but a fact contained in hard evidence in the hands of the Portuguese authorities.
 https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1563090/Madeleine-McCann-died-from-overdose.html

What I find perplexing is why you feel it necessary to keep repeating nonsense and misinformation spread like manure from 2007 which is totally unrelated to the thread topic?

Is there an on topic connection which I have failed to pick up on?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on January 13, 2019, 04:06:42 PM
I find it difficult to believe that people expected the PJ to investugate every so-called sighting of Madeleine McCann. According to The Sun there were over 8,000 of them in 101 countries. The McCanns asked the world to look for Madeleine and people responded but that really wasn't helpful in my opinion.

You are off topic ... or is there some connection to Colin Sutton's film which I'm not picking up on?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Faithlilly on January 13, 2019, 04:10:53 PM
It is true insofar as the Telegraph reported the lies reported in the French press which emanated from the lies the Judicial Police were spreading at the time.

Snip
A source at the newspaper claimed: "We are not simply repeating rumours carried in other papers. This is not a theory, but a fact contained in hard evidence in the hands of the Portuguese authorities.
 https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1563090/Madeleine-McCann-died-from-overdose.html

What I find perplexing is why you feel it necessary to keep repeating nonsense and misinformation spread like manure from 2007 which is totally unrelated to the thread topic?

Is there an on topic connection which I have failed to pick up on?

Misinformation such as Paiva admitted ignoring leads from the public ?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Faithlilly on January 13, 2019, 04:13:10 PM
You are off topic ... or is there some connection to Colin Sutton's film which I'm not picking up on?

Then most of the posts on this thread are off topic, yours included. Why are you targeting G-Unit specifically?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on January 13, 2019, 04:17:42 PM
It is true insofar as the Telegraph reported the lies reported in the French press which emanated from the lies the Judicial Police were spreading at the time.

Snip
A source at the newspaper claimed: "We are not simply repeating rumours carried in other papers. This is not a theory, but a fact contained in hard evidence in the hands of the Portuguese authorities.
 https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1563090/Madeleine-McCann-died-from-overdose.html

What I find perplexing is why you feel it necessary to keep repeating nonsense and misinformation spread like manure from 2007 which is totally unrelated to the thread topic?

Is there an on topic connection which I have failed to pick up on?


I'm showing just how reliable the non verifiable sources from the rags are,some hold them up to the paragon of truth.

Rowley: There are odd headlines and odd stories in newspapers on a regular basis and most of those are nonsense.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on January 13, 2019, 05:18:30 PM
??? Oh for a tiny sliver of logical thinking on this thread.

Or even something which could be considered to be ON TOPIC  8**8:/:   Does anyone other than me find it totally irrational that every single thread on this board gravitates sooner rather than later into a slanging match directed against the Mccann family?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: jassi on January 13, 2019, 05:50:32 PM
Or even something which could be considered to be ON TOPIC  8**8:/:   Does anyone other than me find it totally irrational that every single thread on this board gravitates sooner rather than later into a slanging match directed against the Mccann family?

Except for those that develop into a slanging match against Amaral and/or the PJ
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 13, 2019, 07:09:19 PM
You are off topic ... or is there some connection to Colin Sutton's film which I'm not picking up on?

I'm no more off topic than anyone else. Going back to page one I was interested in having a reasonable discussion about whether the skills used by UK police officers were more useful in the McCann case than those of the PJ. Given the reliance on CCTV evidence in the Bellfield case, which isn't available in Portugal, I thought not.

Instead of a reasonable discussion there was an immediate attack on one PJ officer; Amaral, for failing to  view the footage from just one CCTV camera in Luz. The camera in question, of course, shouldn't have been filming the public highway, and even if it was it might not have picked anything up. Even so, it's a useful stick to beat Amaral with and must be highlighted at every opportunity!

There's no possibility of remaining on topic or of having reasonable discussions while such point scoring continues in my opinion.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 13, 2019, 07:16:54 PM
I'm no more off topic than anyone else. Going back to page one I was interested in having a reasonable discussion about whether the skills used by UK police officers were more useful in the McCann case than those of the PJ. Given the reliance on CCTV evidence in the Bellfield case, which isn't available in Portugal, I thought not.

Instead of a reasonable discussion there was an immediate attack on one PJ officer; Amaral, for failing to  view the footage from just one CCTV camera in Luz. The camera in question, of course, shouldn't have been filming the public highway, and even if it was it might not have picked anything up. Even so, it's a useful stick to beat Amaral with and must be highlighted at every opportunity!

There's no possibility of remaining on topic or of having reasonable discussions while such point scoring continues in my opinion.

Let’s highlight it again, just for good measure, but this time let the great man speak for himself:

Mr Amaral said: “I believe that the person carrying a child in his arms was captured on film from that very camera.

“I asked my officers to gather all the CCTV footage in Luz but, by the time they got to this hotel, the film from this camera had been wiped over.

"It was a mistake and I will always regret it. I do feel Madeleine was let down.”

Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on January 13, 2019, 07:28:37 PM

I'm showing just how reliable the non verifiable sources from the rags are,some hold them up to the paragon of truth.

Rowley: There are odd headlines and odd stories in newspapers on a regular basis and most of those are nonsense.

Much along the lines of the manner in which you are intent on relocating Paiva's revelations regarding the irrelevant dossier of information he was sitting on from his court appearance in 2010 into the future by a few years.

If you have to rewrite history to sustain your argument don't you think your argument is flawed?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Faithlilly on January 13, 2019, 07:41:12 PM
Much along the lines of the manner in which you are intent on relocating Paiva's revelations regarding the irrelevant dossier of information he was sitting on from his court appearance in 2010 into the future by a few years.

If you have to rewrite history to sustain your argument don't you think your argument is flawed?

 @)(++(*
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on January 13, 2019, 07:42:59 PM
Much along the lines of the manner in which you are intent on relocating Paiva's revelations regarding the irrelevant dossier of information he was sitting on from his court appearance in 2010 into the future by a few years.

If you have to rewrite history to sustain your argument don't you think your argument is flawed?

So  are you refusing to accept what Paiva had to say in 2013
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on January 13, 2019, 07:58:57 PM
Much along the lines of the manner in which you are intent on relocating Paiva's revelations regarding the irrelevant dossier of information he was sitting on from his court appearance in 2010 into the future by a few years.

If you have to rewrite history to sustain your argument don't you think your argument is flawed?

You posted this.
I believe the situation was resolved as a result of Paiva's testimony at the libel trial in 2010 when he admitted to holding a dossier of more than 2,000 pages containing information on Madeleine's case which had not been properly investigated; this evidence was given to the McCann lawyer on request and it was McCann private detectives who had to play catch up with evidence held in Judicial Police archives since the case was officially shelved in 2008.


When asked for a cite you came up with this.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/7353737/Madeleine-McCann-more-than-50-new-leads.html

Which never mentioned Paiva,it said G McCann saying that he had been sitting on it,along with their lawyer.



Meanwhile in court in 2013 Paiva said just for clarity.


Q&A.

Quote
SO – When the files are shelved, is it normal to continue to process information?
RP says "yes". The police have to examine every piece of information in order to establish whether it is relevant or not.

SO – Was a work team constituted to process information?
RP says they were two officers for that job, both of them having knowledge about the case. The witness then alludes to the Scotland Yard review and says that the processed information was transmitted to the team that worked with SY.



Far from rewriting history I'm not relying on rags for info but court proceedings.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 13, 2019, 08:39:10 PM
Let’s highlight it again, just for good measure, but this time let the great man speak for himself:

Mr Amaral said: “I believe that the person carrying a child in his arms was captured on film from that very camera.

“I asked my officers to gather all the CCTV footage in Luz but, by the time they got to this hotel, the film from this camera had been wiped over.

"It was a mistake and I will always regret it. I do feel Madeleine was let down.”

It still has no bearing on whether the skills possessed by the UK police were likely to be more successful than those of the PJ in the McCann case.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 13, 2019, 08:46:08 PM
Having presumably looked at and discarded the rest.  You think not following up 600 people of interest is a good reflection on the PJ?
600 people of interest to the Met?

 *%87
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 13, 2019, 08:54:11 PM
Do you inderstand the concept of leaving no stone unturned, or do you think stones should be left to lie as they are as there’s probably nothing under them?
Try that argument with Kate and Gerry.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 13, 2019, 08:57:48 PM
It still has no bearing on whether the skills possessed by the UK police were likely to be more successful than those of the PJ in the McCann case.

The PJ believed that the alerts proved death in the apartment... They were wrong... How can anyone defend that
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 13, 2019, 09:59:37 PM
600 people of interest to the Met?

 *%87
What’s your problem?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 13, 2019, 10:11:49 PM
The PJ believed that the alerts proved death in the apartment... They were wrong... How can anyone defend that

Did they?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 13, 2019, 10:25:03 PM
Policing is a small world, it seems. Apparently Mark Rowley was with Surrey Police and was involved with the investigation into the murder of Milly Dowler.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 13, 2019, 10:25:25 PM
You posted this.
When asked for a cite you came up with this.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/7353737/Madeleine-McCann-more-than-50-new-leads.html

Which never mentioned Paiva,it said G McCann saying that he had been sitting on it,along with their lawyer.



Meanwhile in court in 2013 Paiva said just for clarity.


Q&A.


Far from rewriting history I'm not relying on rags for info but court proceedings.

Some people, namley the supportes, don't much like the PJ or Portuguese the Courts etc   ^*&&

_________________________________________________________________________________
"It still has no bearing on whether the skills possessed by the UK police were likely to be more successful than those of the PJ in the McCann case".

It certanly doesn 't and further more, the met accepted the PJ case files...

How many world wide sightings do we think the PJ or OG could assertain  if all were worth bothering about? I mean, come on all tens of thousands of them couldn't possibly be MBM. And also, we have the great past time of those who are mentally ill and confess to all sorts of crimes- time wasters.

So do we think OG did follow up on EVERY sighting since the PJ couldn't be bothered or were too incompetent according to those on here who are in the know...

Colin Sutton is quite correct to comment on the case- freedom of speech and all that jazz.  I wonder when the OG came to the conclusion that woke and wandered was worth looking at in more detail and did they require special permission.


Some questions I would like put to the Tapas and in particular the parents is the movements/timeline. Also who closed the shutters and window, why did they need to 'test' the shutters to see if it stayed up- surely it stayed up if  someone got in and out DUH.  What was the exact conversation with Maddie regarding no one one being there?

To Gerry: when you checked your daughter how could you see her? where was the light comming from?

 oh so many questions to clear up. I have many many more.It would indeed be great if Colin had managed to take on this case and strip it back.

Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 13, 2019, 10:27:01 PM
Policing is a small world, it seems. Apparently Mark Rowley was with Surrey Police and was involved with the investigation into the murder of Milly Dowler.
Cite?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 13, 2019, 10:30:48 PM
Policing is a small world, it seems. Apparently Mark Rowley was with Surrey Police and was involved with the investigation into the murder of Milly Dowler.

Indeed G... and the parents were very unhappy and complained about them to Mary Doll UK PM. She went to visit them. Apparently, levi told a cell mate he did it, and the cell mate was about to be released-  there was a chance the parents would hear information via the media. Hence they had to go and visit the parents.


Mary Doll term of endearment by some Scots for Teresa May. heehee
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 13, 2019, 10:34:39 PM
Indeed G... and the parents were very unhappy and complained about them to Mary Doll UK PM. She went to visit them. Apparently, levi told a cell mate he did it, and the cell mate was about to be released-  there was a chance the parents would hear information via the media. Hence they had to go and visit the parents.
What is Mary Doll UK PM?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 14, 2019, 07:35:59 PM
It still has no bearing on whether the skills possessed by the UK police were likely to be more successful than those of the PJ in the McCann case.

I do wonder  though if this happened here in the UK if the police would not wear kid gloves as the PJ did. I believe the tapas group would have been seperated and questioned that night. No time to collaborate timelines etc. The social work would most definately have been informed and they would have been more intuitive regarding the claim about UK culture of leaving children alone every night while parents go drinking. They would certainly NOT have been allowed to spout out abduction, and set up a company and, become celebrities.  I think many lessons were learned from Human  trash like Philpots etc...
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 14, 2019, 07:49:58 PM
I do wonder  though if this happened here in the UK if the police would not wear kid gloves as the PJ did. I believe the tapas group would have been seperated and questioned that night. No time to collaborate timelines etc. The social work would most definately have been informed and they would have been more intuitive regarding the claim about UK culture of leaving children alone every night while parents go drinking. They would certainly NOT have been allowed to spout out abduction, and set up a company and, become celebrities.  I think many lessons were learned from Human  trash like Philpots etc...

The story would indeed have been very different had it happened in the UK.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 14, 2019, 08:01:40 PM
The story would indeed have been very different had it happened in the UK.
Or Costa Rica.  Or Indonesia.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 14, 2019, 09:08:28 PM
I do wonder  though if this happened here in the UK if the police would not wear kid gloves as the PJ did. I believe the tapas group would have been seperated and questioned that night. No time to collaborate timelines etc. The social work would most definately have been informed and they would have been more intuitive regarding the claim about UK culture of leaving children alone every night while parents go drinking. They would certainly NOT have been allowed to spout out abduction, and set up a company and, become celebrities.  I think many lessons were learned from Human  trash like Philpots etc...
Would they get people out of their beds during the night?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 19, 2019, 12:13:30 PM
Would they get people out of their beds during the night?

Not to look for a missing child who may have wandered about in the local area I don't think.

An abduction using violence and force to gain entry to an apartment well maybe?

It is my belief that the opportunity was missed to establish that MBM came to harm in the apartment had the parents called the police instantly, and left the apartment off limits- in its natural state Kate claimed it was in.

Their version of what happened just doesn't make any sense what so ever.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 19, 2019, 05:42:47 PM
Not to look for a missing child who may have wandered about in the local area I don't think.

An abduction using violence and force to gain entry to an apartment well maybe?

It is my belief that the opportunity was missed to establish that MBM came to harm in the apartment had the parents called the police instantly, and left the apartment off limits- in its natural state Kate claimed it was in.

Their version of what happened just doesn't make any sense what so ever.
Could that ever happen when it is only Kate who id saying she has been taken and everyone one else is thinking she has just wandered off.  Could Kate take control of that situation?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 20, 2019, 12:23:33 AM
Could that ever happen when it is only Kate who id saying she has been taken and everyone one else is thinking she has just wandered off.  Could Kate take control of that situation?

Well, in my opinion, as I watched and read this story unfold back in the day, it was the behaviour that seemed to suggest a conspiracy of sorts.

I do believe Sr Amarals assertion that the abduction via the window was faked. One theory put out in anoher forum was: they were worried what their families and work colleagues would say when they found out they left their children alone every night for hours to go wining and dining without carrying out physical checks.

This theory does seem to tie in with the  abductor claims being made when the police arrived. Because, before that,  they were all looking for a 'missing' girl. A girl who had perhaps wandered out of an unlocked apartment?

Has any main stream media ever ,mentioned the unlocked door?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 20, 2019, 12:27:47 AM
Well, in my opinion, as I watched and read this story unfold back in the day, it was the behaviour that seemed to suggest a conspiracy of sorts.

I do believe Sr Amarals assertion that the abduction via the window was faked. One theory put out in anoher forum was: they were worried what their families and work colleagues would say when they found out they left their children alone every night for hours to go wining and dining without carrying out physical checks.

This theory does seem to tie in with the  abductor claims being made when the police arrived. Because, before that,  they were all looking for a 'missing' girl. A girl who had perhaps wandered out of an unlocked apartment?

Has any main stream media ever ,mentioned the unlocked door?
LOL.  13th May. 2007. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-454466/Madeleines-parents-left-patio-doors-unlocked.html
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 20, 2019, 12:40:06 AM
LOL.  13th May. 2007. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-454466/Madeleines-parents-left-patio-doors-unlocked.html


lol indeed VS.   why not mention it that night  in their first interview...and where did that bit of news come from?  the family perhaps?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on January 20, 2019, 05:59:41 AM

lol indeed VS.   why not mention it that night  in their first interview...and where did that bit of news come from?  the family perhaps?

For heaven's sake, what else did you want The McCanns to have mentioned that night in the first interview?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 20, 2019, 07:25:32 AM
For heaven's sake, what else did you want The McCanns to have mentioned that night in the first interview?

There's a great deal of unknowns re conversations that night. M Oldfield seemed unconvinced by 'abduction' when he failed to press for a phone call to the police at OC reception around 10:15pm, so I for one would be most interested to know when this line of thought was first put to the GNR.

 *%87
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on January 20, 2019, 07:33:55 AM
There's a great deal of unknowns re conversations that night. M Oldfield seemed unconvinced by 'abduction' when he failed to press for a phone call to the police at OC reception around 10:15pm, so I for one would be most interested to know when this line of thought was first put to the GNR.

 *%87

That is fine.  But not the same as expecting The McCanns to mention every detail on that night.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 20, 2019, 08:38:33 AM

lol indeed VS.   why not mention it that night  in their first interview...and where did that bit of news come from?  the family perhaps?
whynotwhynotewhynot.  Why not lock the door in the first place?  Why not stay at the apartment?  Why not holiday in Rothley?  What is your point, lololol, hahahaha, etc?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 20, 2019, 10:10:49 AM
There's a great deal of unknowns re conversations that night. M Oldfield seemed unconvinced by 'abduction' when he failed to press for a phone call to the police at OC reception around 10:15pm, so I for one would be most interested to know when this line of thought was first put to the GNR.

 *%87

According to Roque Gerry McCann said abduction when he met them at the 24 hour reception, but Roque doesn'tsay this until October 2007. 
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOSE_ROQUE.htm
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 22, 2019, 09:12:33 PM
There's a great deal of unknowns re conversations that night. M Oldfield seemed unconvinced by 'abduction' when he failed to press for a phone call to the police at OC reception around 10:15pm, so I for one would be most interested to know when this line of thought was first put to the GNR.

 *%87

You, me and many others. Which is why it is good that two police forces are not looking at a window entry/exit to abduct a child.

 
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOSE_ROQUE.htm

Even the police were suspicious of their behaviour here in this statement.

"appear to be crying but no tears"
" falling on hands and knees"

The window was closed the blind (shutter) was only open that a hand could get through . So not open - The curtains couldn't have been blowing because the officer didn't notice this.  So crime scene, if there is one in the room, was well, tampered with/ wiped IF the window and shutters were ever open as Kate claimed was the evidence she needed to know her daughter was abducted.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Faithlilly on January 25, 2019, 10:47:36 AM
Not sure if this has been posted before but a very interesting talk by Colin Sutton on Operation Grange.

https://youtu.be/gtLoPzPr7Eg
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 25, 2019, 11:09:59 AM
Not sure if this has been posted before but a very interesting talk by Colin Sutton on Operation Grange.

https://youtu.be/gtLoPzPr7Eg

I notice he picked up on Simon Foy's bizarre statement that 'they were where they were where they were when the child went missing'.

He also questions Rowley's assertion that the question of parental involvement was dealt with at the time by the Portuguese.

He seems to find these assertions as incomprehensible as many of us do, but he has the advantage of knowing how investigations normally proceed. In my opinion those who find nothing strange about the Met's pronouncenents are far too trusting.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 25, 2019, 11:49:10 AM
I notice he picked up on Simon Foy's bizarre statement that 'they were where they were where they were when the child went missing'.

He also questions Rowley's assertion that the question of parental involvement was dealt with at the time by the Portuguese.

He seems to find these assertions as incomprehensible as many of us do, but he has the advantage of knowing how investigations normally proceed. In my opinion those who find nothing strange about the Met's pronouncenents are far too trusting.

Both Foy and Rowley know a lot more about the case, than Sutton.... So I prefer to take notice of what they say... IMO... Sutton wants his 15 mins of fame..

Has, Sutton commented on P D Carmos comments Re not suspects and no evidence. It isn't just what the police say that lead me to believe the mccanns are not involved... It's the whole picture..  .

Is Suttin making money out of talks on criminal cases... It looks like it... That explains to me why he's making somewhat controversial statements

Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on January 25, 2019, 12:14:22 PM
Both Foy and Rowley know a lot more about the case, than Sutton.... So I prefer to take notice of what they say... IMO... Sutton wants his 15 mins of fame..

Has, Sutton commented on P D Carmos comments Re not suspects and no evidence. It isn't just what the police say that lead me to believe the mccanns are not involved... It's the whole picture..  .

Is Suttin making money out of talks on criminal cases... It looks like it... That explains to me why he's making somewhat controversial statements

Sutton has a track record in bringing Bellfield to book, whats Foy and Rowley done?

Any comment on Do Carmo  when asked do you accept the girl was abducted replying we don't know what happened and have to be prepared for different scenarios. Its the whole picture after all.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 25, 2019, 12:19:54 PM
Sutton has a track record in bringing Bellfield to book, whats Foy and Rowley done?

Any comment on Do Carmo  when asked do you accept the girl was abducted replying we don't know what happened and have to be prepared for different scenarios. Its the whole picture after all.

My opinion is that you and others refuse to face facts and are in denial... Three leading policemen involved in the investigation... With access to facts unavailable  to Sutton
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on January 25, 2019, 01:23:48 PM
Do Carmo who doesn't accept the girl was abducted,Redwood who says the girl may not have left 5a alive.Yep lots of denial in some parts.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 25, 2019, 01:31:31 PM
Both Foy and Rowley know a lot more about the case, than Sutton.... So I prefer to take notice of what they say... IMO... Sutton wants his 15 mins of fame..

Has, Sutton commented on P D Carmos comments Re not suspects and no evidence. It isn't just what the police say that lead me to believe the mccanns are not involved... It's the whole picture..  .

Is Suttin making money out of talks on criminal cases... It looks like it... That explains to me why he's making somewhat controversial statements

I don't think Foy and Rowley are experts on the case at all. If they were they should have been able to explain how the McCanns were ruled out. They couldn't.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 25, 2019, 01:35:22 PM
I don't think Foy and Rowley are experts on the case at all. If they were they should have been able to explain how the McCanns were ruled out. They couldn't.

They couldn't... In your opinion... You seem to be assuming your opinion is fact... I think they could... But chose not to... It would not serve any purpose..

So who do you think is an expert on the case... Amaral
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 25, 2019, 01:52:06 PM
They couldn't... In your opinion... You seem to be assuming your opinion is fact... I think they could... But chose not to... It would not serve any purpose..

So who do you think is an expert on the case... Amaral

So you think they deliberately chose not to offer a sensible explaination?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: jassi on January 25, 2019, 01:55:39 PM
I don't think Foy and Rowley are experts on the case at all. If they were they should have been able to explain how the McCanns were ruled out. They couldn't.

Given Rowley's rank at the time, he would have been entirely dependent on briefings from officers several ranks below his own. I see him merely as the front-man for OG
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 25, 2019, 02:07:06 PM
So you think they deliberately chose not to offer a sensible explaination?

Why should they offer any explanation... Why should they want to satisfy a small group on the net ....did Bush ever deny he was behind 911......did Blair deny being complicit in the UK terror attacks
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on January 25, 2019, 02:23:11 PM

I despair.  OG were never going to say anything definitive.  That is a fact of any Police Investigation.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 25, 2019, 06:24:56 PM
Why should they offer any explanation... Why should they want to satisfy a small group on the net ....did Bush ever deny he was behind 911......did Blair deny being complicit in the UK terror attacks

Rowley referred to the case as unique. One of it's unique features is the suspicion surrounding tha parents. A firm and believable explanation of how OG 'know' they weren't involved would have helped the McCanns. Instead he told a lie about the first investigation which didn't help either the McCanns or the Met. The McCanns have never been eliminated by any police force imo.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 25, 2019, 06:40:23 PM
Rowley referred to the case as unique. One of it's unique features is the suspicion surrounding tha parents. A firm and believable explanation of how OG 'know' they weren't involved would have helped the McCanns. Instead he told a lie about the first investigation which didn't help either the McCanns or the Met. The McCanns have never been eliminated by any police force imo.
What lie did he tell?  Are you saying The Met has not eliminated the McCanns?  What do you base this on?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 25, 2019, 08:20:44 PM
What lie did he tell?  Are you saying The Met has not eliminated the McCanns?  What do you base this on?

He said that the first Portuguese investigation had 'dealt with' the question of parental involvement so there was no need for OG to revisit that. The first investigation was unable to rule out parental involvement so there was every reason to revisit that question.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 25, 2019, 08:30:58 PM
He said that the first Portuguese investigation had 'dealt with' the question of parental involvement so there was no need for OG to revisit that. The first investigation was unable to rule out parental involvement so there was every reason to revisit that question.
The first investigation investigated the parents thoroughly and found no evidence against them so it was fair enough to say that parental involvement had been dealt with.  The fact that the current Portuguese investigation is not focusing on the parents either suggests that they too feel that parental involvement has been dealt with.  I don’t think you should be accusing Rowley of lying.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 26, 2019, 06:53:50 AM
The first investigation investigated the parents thoroughly and found no evidence against them so it was fair enough to say that parental involvement had been dealt with.  The fact that the current Portuguese investigation is not focusing on the parents either suggests that they too feel that parental involvement has been dealt with.  I don’t think you should be accusing Rowley of lying.

OK. maybe he didn't know all aout the case and thought he was relling the truth. Maybe the McCanns told him they'd been cleared and he believed them. Maybe he never really examined the conclusions of the first investigation. After all, as head of anti-terrorism he was a busy man.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 26, 2019, 07:24:07 AM
OK. maybe he didn't know all aout the case and thought he was relling the truth. Maybe the McCanns told him they'd been cleared and he believed them. Maybe he never really examined the conclusions of the first investigation. After all, as head of anti-terrorism he was a busy man.
Maybe you’ve got hold of the wrong end of the stick.  Maybe you refuse to accept the blatantly obvious.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 26, 2019, 08:43:15 AM
Maybe you’ve got hold of the wrong end of the stick.  Maybe you refuse to accept the blatantly obvious.

Or maybe not.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: jassi on January 26, 2019, 08:53:56 AM
OK. maybe he didn't know all aout the case and thought he was relling the truth. Maybe the McCanns told him they'd been cleared and he believed them. Maybe he never really examined the conclusions of the first investigation. After all, as head of anti-terrorism he was a busy man.

As Head of Anti-terrorism, why was he involved at at ?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 26, 2019, 09:09:11 AM
As Head of Anti-terrorism, why was he involved at at ?

Perhaps because he'd been involved for some time, so he just kept on with it.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on January 26, 2019, 11:29:45 AM
The first investigation investigated the parents thoroughly and found no evidence against them so it was fair enough to say that parental involvement had been dealt with.  The fact that the current Portuguese investigation is not focusing on the parents either suggests that they too feel that parental involvement has been dealt with.  I don’t think you should be accusing Rowley of lying.

There is no comparison with the Sutton led investigation into Levi Bellfield's murderous rampages and the Amaral led investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance.

The former was evidence led.

The latter was not.

The latter failed to produce any evidence which far from leading to the possibility of solving the case was botched and non-existent.
As in the failed forensic examinations made in the McCann apartment in the early hours of the 4th May which might actually have destroyed evidence.
Or was misinterpreted by the investigators ... as in the forensic evidence supplied by the FSS ... prior to Kate and Gerry McCann being constituted arguidos as a precursor to charges being laid against them.

The fact no charges were laid and Amaral was sacked from the investigation speaks volumes.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 26, 2019, 12:11:38 PM
Amaral was taken off the case and transferred to Faro after criticising the British police for following prime suspect leads. Please let me know how that one works? What a farce!
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Erngath on January 26, 2019, 12:23:37 PM
There is no comparison with the Sutton led investigation into Levi Bellfield's murderous rampages and the Amaral led investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance.

The former was evidence led.

The latter was not.

The latter failed to produce any evidence which far from leading to the possibility of solving the case was botched and non-existent.
As in the failed forensic examinations made in the McCann apartment in the early hours of the 4th May which might actually have destroyed evidence.
Or was misinterpreted by the investigators ... as in the forensic evidence supplied by the FSS ... prior to Kate and Gerry McCann being constituted arguidos as a precursor to charges being laid against them.

The fact no charges were laid and Amaral was sacked from the investigation speaks volumes.
 


I don't know if this detail of the investigation was factual  I do hope it was , but I did warm to Hutton when he insisted on accompanying the FLO to meet the parents of Amelie when they arrived in London and then accompanied them to the murder scene where they left flowers.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on January 26, 2019, 12:24:37 PM
Amaral was taken off the case and transferred to Faro after criticising the British police for following prime suspect leads. Please let me know how that one works? What a farce!

I think there may be many reasons for his sacking sounding off to a journalist who didn't us the convention of "a source close to the investigation" being one that we know about.

However ... it is worth remembering that his tirade was precipitated by rage at email evidence which had been sent to a VIP suggesting the involvement of a disgruntled MW employee.
His response was not to pass it down the line for investigation and get it out of the way ... but to have a hissy fit instead and spout to the press.  Not terribly professional I would imagine.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 26, 2019, 12:55:49 PM
Here's a little clue for you. The BRITISH dogs were brought in because the BRITISH police suspected murder. British police later took on the case to finish it with a murder squad team. The case continues until the job is done! And there will be one unmistakable connection when the Madeleine McCann case is done.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 26, 2019, 05:50:56 PM
Or maybe not.
Well by your own admission you don’t really have a clue so probably best to say nothing until you’re in full possession of the facts, IMO.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 26, 2019, 06:47:28 PM
Well by your own admission you don’t really have a clue so probably best to say nothing until you’re in full possession of the facts, IMO.

-one on the forum is in possession of all the facts but Rowley seemed to know even less in my opinion.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 26, 2019, 07:01:02 PM
-one on the forum is in possession of all the facts but Rowley seemed to know even less in my opinion.
@)(++(* sure, we all know better than the guy with full possession of the facts.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 26, 2019, 08:30:04 PM
@)(++(* sure, we all know better than the guy with full possession of the facts.

If you want to believe that A C Rowley examined all the evidence feel free, but I think you'll find he did no such thing.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 26, 2019, 08:44:03 PM
If you want to believe that A C Rowley examined all the evidence feel free, but I think you'll find he did no such thing.
Does Rowley have full possession of the facts of this case or do you?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: jassi on January 26, 2019, 08:50:09 PM
I don't believe any police officer, past or present is in possession of the full facts of this case.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on January 26, 2019, 09:27:03 PM
I don't believe any police officer, past or present is in position of the full facts of this case.

Are the police privy to every fact of every case solved or unsolved that they investigate?  I think not.  All they can do is to uphold law and order as best they can and as members of the public it is for us to assist them in that, even if only by giving moral support
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 26, 2019, 11:09:59 PM
I don't believe any police officer, past or present is in possession of the full facts of this case.
yet G-Unit seems to think she knows more than Rowley, who has the full files at his disposal, as well as all the information gathered by the McCanns’ detectives, as well as information on the current investigation being undertaken by the Portuguese as well as direct access to the McCanns themselves.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 27, 2019, 06:42:11 AM
yet G-Unit seems to think she knows more than Rowley, who has the full files at his disposal, as well as all the information gathered by the McCanns’ detectives, as well as information on the current investigation being undertaken by the Portuguese as well as direct access to the McCanns themselves.

You have a strange idea of how hierarchies work. Rowley perhaps could have sat in his office ploughing through all that information but in my opinion he did no such thing. He had underlings who did that and wrote reports. The underlings were looking for lines of enquiry relating to abduction because of the remit. Above all, they 'knew' 'Kare and Gerry' were in the clear. I expect he was known to them as 'Mark'.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on January 27, 2019, 08:21:43 AM
You have a strange idea of how hierarchies work. Rowley perhaps could have sat in his office ploughing through all that information but in my opinion he did no such thing. He had underlings who did that and wrote reports. The underlings were looking for lines of enquiry relating to abduction because of the remit. Above all, they 'knew' 'Kare and Gerry' were in the clear. I expect he was known to them as 'Mark'.
I'd be surprised to find Rowley was permitted access to the files.  I'd be surprised to find his job description requires such access.  I would expect him to rely on executive summaries, with occasional briefings, but otherwise to be pretty ignorant of the details.

I don't see him having interest in fine details, nor having the time to wade through them.

The Manhunt programme suggests the person most in the know re OG would be DCI Redwood, but I doubt very much that he himself read the details.  There were staff on his team to work in particular areas then procedures to assemble the results.  In Manhunt, a clear example was CCTV.  Sutton did not plough through it himself.  He had several officers do that, and relied on the ability of his staff to flag up items of interest.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Sunny on January 27, 2019, 08:38:04 AM
I don't believe that the head honcho in an investigation would be aware of every piece of evidence either.  He has staff to inform him of items of interest and may take part in the daily briefing but that would be all. 

As others have said he would be far to busy to do everybody else's job for them.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 27, 2019, 09:01:14 AM
You have a strange idea of how hierarchies work. Rowley perhaps could have sat in his office ploughing through all that information but in my opinion he did no such thing. He had underlings who did that and wrote reports. The underlings were looking for lines of enquiry relating to abduction because of the remit. Above all, they 'knew' 'Kare and Gerry' were in the clear. I expect he was known to them as 'Mark'.
Did I say he ploughed through all the information personally?  I said he had access to it all including privileged information , so is in full possession of the facts, unlike you, but if want to continue to believe that you and your fellow sceptics know better than him then feel free to live in a state of denial and delusion.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 27, 2019, 09:06:43 AM
I don't believe that the head honcho in an investigation would be aware of every piece of evidence either.  He has staff to inform him of items of interest and may take part in the daily briefing but that would be all. 

As others have said he would be far to busy to do everybody else's job for them.

He says the Portuguese dealt with it, but Foy seemed to be saying that OG checked the McCann's alibi. How can someone have an alibi when no-one knows what crime was committed or when it happened? In order for Foy to say the McCanns were where they said they were he clearly beleived that the crime occured between 9.05 and 10pm. Therefore OG believed what the parents told them. The PJ, on the other hand, started theit clock when the child was last seen; either 5.30 or 6.30.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 27, 2019, 09:10:49 AM
De Carmo stated clearly there is no evidence against the McCanns and they are not suspects... There is no indications of them being investigated.....on what basis do sceptics believe they are, still under suspicion and being investigated
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 27, 2019, 09:14:05 AM
He says the Portuguese dealt with it, but Foy seemed to be saying that OG checked the McCann's alibi. How can someone have an alibi when no-one knows what crime was committed or when it happened? In order for Foy to say the McCanns were where they said they were he clearly beleived that the crime occured between 9.05 and 10pm. Therefore OG believed what the parents told them. The PJ, on the other hand, started theit clock when the child was last seen; either 5.30 or 6.30.
And what have the PJ done to re-examine events that occurred between 5.30pm and the time the McCanns left the apartment?  Have they re-interviewed all the protagonists?  Made them arguidos?  What?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 27, 2019, 09:14:40 AM
He says the Portuguese dealt with it, but Foy seemed to be saying that OG checked the McCann's alibi. How can someone have an alibi when no-one knows what crime was committed or when it happened? In order for Foy to say the McCanns were where they said they were he clearly beleived that the crime occured between 9.05 and 10pm. Therefore OG believed what the parents told them. The PJ, on the other hand, started theit clock when the child was last seen; either 5.30 or 6.30.

The, Portuguese have said the, mccanns, are not suspects.... Are you now, suggesting Maddie disappeared before the, mccanns, left for, the, tapas... In order to try and make, sense, you make no sense
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 27, 2019, 09:18:36 AM
Did I say he ploughed through all the information personally?  I said he had access to it all including privileged information , so is in full possession of the facts, unlike you, but if want to continue to believe that you and your fellow sceptics know better than him then feel free to live in a state of denial and delusion.

Having access to something doesn't mean it's actually been accessed, as you now admit. Rowley simply repeated what he was told imo. Those who think he did any more than that are the ones in denial and deluding themselves in my opinion.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 27, 2019, 09:23:54 AM
And what have the PJ done to re-examine events that occurred between 5.30pm and the time the McCanns left the apartment?  Have they re-interviewed all the protagonists?  Made them arguidos?  What?

AFAIK the PJ aren't investigating anything.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 27, 2019, 09:24:51 AM
Having access to something doesn't mean it's actually been accessed, as you now admit. Rowley simply repeated what he was told imo. Those who think he did any more than that are the ones in denial and deluding themselves in my opinion.
Hang on, you accused him of lying to begin with.  Which shadowy figure in the Met do you think told him what to say and why?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 27, 2019, 09:25:24 AM
AFAIK the PJ aren't investigating anything.
@)(++(* oh that’s alright then.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 27, 2019, 09:27:12 AM
The, Portuguese have said the, mccanns, are not suspects.... Are you now, suggesting Maddie disappeared before the, mccanns, left for, the, tapas... In order to try and make, sense, you make no sense

The only evidence that Madeleine was OK until 9pm was provided by her parents.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 27, 2019, 09:28:06 AM
So it seems there are people on this forum who genuinely do believe they have a greater understanding of this case based on their partial access to the case files as they appear online than the Met who have been investigating the case for the last 5 years.  Oh, the arrogance!
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 27, 2019, 09:29:37 AM
The only evidence that Madeleine was OK until 9pm was provided by her parents.
You really need to have a long hard think about what you are suggesting.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 27, 2019, 09:33:55 AM
Hang on, you accused him of lying to begin with.  Which shadowy figure in the Met do you think told him what to say and why?

Any 'shadowy figures' are a figment of your imagination, it's not what I meant. A higher up person asks for information from those below them.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Faithlilly on January 27, 2019, 09:36:03 AM
I think anyone who believes that if the McCanns were being investigated we’d be told are just being ridiculous.

When specifically asked if the parents are suspects what do supporters expect any police officer to say....’ oh yes we’re investigating them but we don’t have enough evidence yet’ ?

There is widespread denial on this board but not on the sceptic side.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 27, 2019, 09:37:11 AM
The only evidence that Madeleine was OK until 9pm was provided by her parents.

I think this is an acceptance that the parents could not have been involved in maddies didappearnce if it happened between 8.30 and 10...as CMOMM have realised...so now...having consigned amarals theory to the bin where it belongs....a new theory has to be conspired
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on January 27, 2019, 09:43:03 AM
AFAIK the PJ aren't investigating anything.

So Operation Grange are in charge then?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 27, 2019, 09:47:48 AM
I think anyone who believes that if the McCanns were being investigated we’d be told are just being ridiculous.

When specifically asked if the parents are suspects what do supporters expect any police officer to say....’ oh yes we’re investigating them but we don’t have enough evidence yet’ ?

There is widespread denial on this board but not on the sceptic side.

so you think after 12 yeras of looking..they still havent found enough evidence but are still looking...they would have more luck with the loch ness monster
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 27, 2019, 09:49:19 AM
So it seems there are people on this forum who genuinely do believe they have a greater understanding of this case based on their partial access to the case files as they appear online than the Met who have been investigating the case for the last 5 years.  Oh, the arrogance!

'The Met' is made up of individuals. Each individual knows a cetain amount. I don;t think any individual has examined all the evidence.

Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on January 27, 2019, 09:51:01 AM
'The Met' is made up of individuals. Each individual knows a cetain amount. I don;t think any individual has examined all the evidence.

Holmes probably has.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 27, 2019, 09:55:12 AM
So Operation Grange are in charge then?

Operation Grange are in charge of whatever it is they're doing. The Portuguese are in charge of deciding whether Operation Grange have found anything worth pursuing through the Portuguese Courts. If they decide it's not, then OG must accept that.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 27, 2019, 09:56:15 AM
Any 'shadowy figures' are a figment of your imagination, it's not what I meant. A higher up person asks for information from those below them.
So is it those “below him” that are feeding him lies in your opinion?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 27, 2019, 09:57:00 AM
I think anyone who believes that if the McCanns were being investigated we’d be told are just being ridiculous.

When specifically asked if the parents are suspects what do supporters expect any police officer to say....’ oh yes we’re investigating them but we don’t have enough evidence yet’ ?

There is widespread denial on this board but not on the sceptic side.
Isn’t that precisely what the PJ did in September 2007?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 27, 2019, 09:57:44 AM
'The Met' is made up of individuals. Each individual knows a cetain amount. I don;t think any individual has examined all the evidence.
Unlike you of course, @)(++(*
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 27, 2019, 09:59:21 AM
Operation Grange are in charge of whatever it is they're doing. The Portuguese are in charge of deciding whether Operation Grange have found anything worth pursuing through the Portuguese Courts. If they decide it's not, then OG must accept that.
They obviously decided that the latest arguidos were worth pursuing, odd if they thought the parents were involved between 5.30pm and 8.30pm.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 27, 2019, 10:08:03 AM
You really need to have a long hard think about what you are suggesting.

You seem fond of 'facts'. Well that's one of them. I'm suggesting nothing more and nothing less. What you think I'm suggesting is coming from your mind, not mine.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 27, 2019, 10:10:50 AM
The only evidence that Madeleine was OK until 9pm was provided by her parents.

what is the significance of that
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 27, 2019, 10:12:54 AM
You seem fond of 'facts'. Well that's one of them. I'm suggesting nothing more and nothing less. What you think I'm suggesting is coming from your mind, not mine.
What a silly thing to say. If you seriously think that concentrating on the hours between 5.30pm and 8.30pm would help the police to solve this case then it doesn’t take a genius to know precisely what it is you are suggesting, deny it all you like.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 27, 2019, 10:16:43 AM
So is it those “below him” that are feeding him lies in your opinion?

I've no idea. Foy and Redwood at least claimed to have checked the timeline. Rowley didn't mention that. He seemed to think the Portuguese dealt with the questiion of parental involvement. I don't think lies are involved, just confusion. Trying to explain why their investigation didn't begin at the beginning isn't easy.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 27, 2019, 10:18:57 AM
I've no idea. Foy and Redwood at least claimed to have checked the timeline. Rowley didn't mention that. He seemed to think the Portuguese dealt with the questiion of parental involvement. I don't think lies are involved, just confusion. Trying to explain why their investigation didn't begin at the beginning isn't easy.
That’s because you’re not in full possession of the facts.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 27, 2019, 10:31:42 AM
That’s because you’re not in full possession of the facts.

I don't need to be in full possession of the facts to form the opinion that OG is struggling to justify it's stance.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 27, 2019, 10:56:54 AM
I don't need to be in full possession of the facts to form the opinion that OG is struggling to justify it's stance.
You are entitled to form any opinion you like but in my opinion the more information you have at your disposal the more valid your opinion will be.  Therefore in my opinion The Met’s opinion is worth more than your opinion, feel free to tell me why, in your opinion, I am wrong.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Sunny on January 27, 2019, 11:13:53 AM
what is the significance of that

IMO it could prove significant if other evidence emerges.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 27, 2019, 11:21:14 AM
IMO it could prove significant if other evidence emerges.

So at the moment not significant... When was the last time anyone saw Ben Needham apart from his family

Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine
Post by: Faithlilly on January 27, 2019, 11:32:24 AM
so you think after 12 yeras of looking..they still havent found enough evidence but are still looking...they would have more luck with the loch ness monster

Who knows what they’ve found over the last seven years. All it would need was for one of the main protagonists to change there story or a piece of forensic evidence to be re-examined with the latest techniques. I’m sure Russell Bishop thought he was in the clear when acquitted.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine
Post by: Davel on January 27, 2019, 11:47:11 AM
Who knows what they’ve found over the last seven years. All it would need was for one of the main protagonists to change there story or a piece of forensic evidence to be re-examined with the latest techniques. I’m sure Russell Bishop thought he was in the clear when acquitted.
Exactly the same could happen in the Needham case..
Many things are possible... Maddue could have been abducted by an extra terrestrial.... It's what's probable that's important
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 27, 2019, 12:17:35 PM
Who knows what they’ve found over the last seven years. All it would need was for one of the main protagonists to change there story or a piece of forensic evidence to be re-examined with the latest techniques. I’m sure Russell Bishop thought he was in the clear when acquitted.
What piece of forensic evidence currently in the possesion of the police do you think could be re-examined to provide evidence of the McCanns’ involvement?  I can help with that.  Nothing, that’s what.
So basically the seven year reinvestagation has amounted to the police waiting for one of the tapas group to spill the beans, in your view.  LOL.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine
Post by: Faithlilly on January 27, 2019, 12:20:43 PM
Exactly the same could happen in the Needham case..
Many things are possible... Maddue could have been abducted by an extra terrestrial.... It's what's probable that's important

After Russell Bishop was tried and acquitted I’m sure no one thought that it was probable that he would one day be re-arrested, tried and convicted of the same crime. No one thought that it was probable that over 30 years after the murder evidence would be found that would help to convict the original suspect.

Until arrests are made and charges laid we will have absolutely no idea who the police are investigating and that includes the parents.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine
Post by: Davel on January 27, 2019, 12:25:15 PM
After Russell Bishop was tried and acquitted I’m sure no one thought that it was probable that he would one day be re-arrested, tried and convicted of the same crime. No one thought that it was probable that over 30 years after the murder evidence would be found that would help to convict the original suspect.

Until arrests are made and charges laid we will have absolutely no idea who the police are investigating and that includes the parents.

I think we do have an idea.... I think it's absolutely 100% obvious the mccanns are not suspects or being investigated.. I think some are in total denial
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine
Post by: jassi on January 27, 2019, 12:27:51 PM
After Russell Bishop was tried and acquitted I’m sure no one thought that it was probable that he would one day be re-arrested, tried and convicted of the same crime. No one thought that it was probable that over 30 years after the murder evidence would be found that would help to convict the original suspect.

Until arrests are made and charges laid we will have absolutely no idea who the police are investigating and that includes the parents.

If, indeed, they are doing anything much at all.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine
Post by: Faithlilly on January 27, 2019, 01:05:18 PM
I think we do have an idea.... I think it's absolutely 100% obvious the mccanns are not suspects or being investigated.. I think some are in total denial

Okay then tell me of one investigation where until there was arrests the public knew who was being investigated?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine
Post by: Davel on January 27, 2019, 01:19:29 PM
Okay then tell me of one investigation where until there was arrests the public knew who was being investigated?

every missing child case...including the mccanns and the needhams....next
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 27, 2019, 01:56:08 PM
After Russell Bishop was tried and acquitted I’m sure no one thought that it was probable that he would one day be re-arrested, tried and convicted of the same crime. No one thought that it was probable that over 30 years after the murder evidence would be found that would help to convict the original suspect.

Until arrests are made and charges laid we will have absolutely no idea who the police are investigating and that includes the parents.
I thought it was possible, probable even, but not in the case of Madeleine’s parents, as there is no evidence that could be found that would convict them apart from a full confession from one or both of them.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine
Post by: Faithlilly on January 27, 2019, 02:39:12 PM
every missing child case...including the mccanns and the needhams....next

The police investigating both cases made no statement about the investigation into any individual until they were made suspects. If you dispute that fact perhaps you can provide a cite ?

That there was unofficial leaks about the progress of the case is indisputable but we are not talking about unnamed sources but official police statements.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 27, 2019, 02:59:15 PM
You are entitled to form any opinion you like but in my opinion the more information you have at your disposal the more valid your opinion will be.  Therefore in my opinion The Met’s opinion is worth more than your opinion, feel free to tell me why, in your opinion, I am wrong.

You can believe what you like, as can I. I see no point in arguing about it because neither of us will convince the other.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 27, 2019, 03:12:29 PM
Okay then tell me of one investigation where until there was arrests the public knew who was being investigated?
The McCann case 2007
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine
Post by: Davel on January 27, 2019, 03:12:47 PM
The police investigating both cases made no statement about the investigation into any individual until they were made suspects. If you dispute that fact perhaps you can provide a cite ?

That there was unofficial leaks about the progress of the case is indisputable but we are not talking about unnamed sources but official police statements.
yourquestion was...


Okay then tell me of one investigation where until there was arrests the public knew who was being investigated?


you have now changed the question having been shown to be wrong on the first one.....laughing emoticons indicated but im far too sophisticated...and its were arrests  ...not was
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 27, 2019, 03:13:56 PM
You can believe what you like, as can I. I see no point in arguing about it because neither of us will convince the other.
OK, carry on believing you know better than the experts then, it won’t do you any good but that’s your problem not mine.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 27, 2019, 03:14:59 PM
Okay then tell me of one investigation where until there was arrests the public knew who was being investigated?
Cliff Richard.  Charlie Elphicke.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 27, 2019, 03:18:50 PM
isnt prince phillip being investigated...

The Duke of Edinburgh could be sent on a drivers’ awareness course, it has emerged, as police continue to investigate a crash which left two women hospitalised.

The Duke, 97, is understood to have no intention of giving up driving, having been photographed on public roads driving a new car less than 48 hours after the accident.

He is understood to be complying with a Norfolk Police investigation, which will see him interviewed about what happened.


so some think the mcccanns are being protected...but prince phillip isnt
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 27, 2019, 04:20:44 PM
isnt prince phillip being investigated...

The Duke of Edinburgh could be sent on a drivers’ awareness course, it has emerged, as police continue to investigate a crash which left two women hospitalised.

The Duke, 97, is understood to have no intention of giving up driving, having been photographed on public roads driving a new car less than 48 hours after the accident.

He is understood to be complying with a Norfolk Police investigation, which will see him interviewed about what happened.


so some think the mcccanns are being protected...but prince phillip isnt

Why would anyone protect the McCanns?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 27, 2019, 04:21:55 PM
Why would anyone protect the McCanns?

have you not read CMOMM....
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine
Post by: Faithlilly on January 27, 2019, 04:30:40 PM
yourquestion was...


Okay then tell me of one investigation where until there was arrests the public knew who was being investigated?


you have now changed the question having been shown to be wrong on the first one.....laughing emoticons indicated but im far too sophisticated...and its were arrests  ...not was

I assumed it was understood I meant from official statements...obviously not.

Okay from police statements we had no idea that the parents were being investigated. In fact it was emphatically denied just days before they were made suspects by a police spokesman.
The police will not disclose details of individuals being investigated until arrests are made....even if specifically, or especially, if asked by the media.
It would be prejudicial and may even jeopardise any resulting trial.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Faithlilly on January 27, 2019, 04:32:08 PM
isnt prince phillip being investigated...

The Duke of Edinburgh could be sent on a drivers’ awareness course, it has emerged, as police continue to investigate a crash which left two women hospitalised.

The Duke, 97, is understood to have no intention of giving up driving, having been photographed on public roads driving a new car less than 48 hours after the accident.

He is understood to be complying with a Norfolk Police investigation, which will see him interviewed about what happened.


so some think the mcccanns are being protected...but prince phillip isnt

There was no dispute who was involved.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 27, 2019, 04:55:29 PM
I assumed it was understood I meant from official statements...obviously not.

Okay from police statements we had no idea that the parents were being investigated. In fact it was emphatically denied just days before they were made suspects by a police spokesman.
The police will not disclose details of individuals being investigated until arrests are made....even if specifically, or especially, if asked by the media.
It would be prejudicial and may even jeopardise any resulting trial.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 27, 2019, 05:06:27 PM
Were the McCanns ever arrested?  And yet we know they were police suspects, so Faithlilly is talking rot, IMO.  If the McCanns really were police suspects why have they not been arrested, or interviewed under caution, or reconstituted arguidos yet?  What the hell are the police waiting for FGS?! 
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine
Post by: Davel on January 27, 2019, 05:25:07 PM
I assumed it was understood I meant from official statements...obviously not.

Okay from police statements we had no idea that the parents were being investigated. In fact it was emphatically denied just days before they were made suspects by a police spokesman.
The police will not disclose details of individuals being investigated until arrests are made....even if specifically, or especially, if asked by the media.
It would be prejudicial and may even jeopardise any resulting trial.


You misunderstand faithlillys question... You also misunderstand supporters..
I can't understand why you and others cannot appreciate that whilst many things are remotely possible they are so improbable as to be approaching zero probability...
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine
Post by: Faithlilly on January 27, 2019, 05:53:30 PM
You misunderstand faithlillys question... You also misunderstand supporters..
I can't understand why you and others cannot appreciate thst whilst many things are remotely possible they are so unprobable as to be approaching zero probability...

You misunderstand faithlillys question ???

The only way we have of knowing whether the parents are being investigated is from the investigators..and they aren’t allowed to tell. QED.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 27, 2019, 06:09:02 PM
You misunderstand faithlillys question ???

The only way we have of knowing whether the parents are being investigated is from the investigators..and they aren’t allowed to tell. QED.
Remember who this thread is about?  He doesn’t seem to think the McCanns are being investigated?  Is he deluded as well?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine
Post by: Davel on January 27, 2019, 06:14:58 PM
You misunderstand faithlillys question ???

The only way we have of knowing whether the parents are being investigated is from the investigators..and they aren’t allowed to tell. QED.

you misunderstand faithlillys question...this is it

Okay then tell me of one investigation where until there was arrests the public knew who was being investigated?


obviously if you are looking for an answer to a dfferent one.....you need to ask a different question
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine
Post by: Faithlilly on January 27, 2019, 06:33:14 PM
you misunderstand faithlillys question...this is it

Okay then tell me of one investigation where until there was arrests the public knew who was being investigated?


obviously if you are looking for an answer to a dfferent one.....you need to ask a different question

My, my you really don’t want to answer my question do you ?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine
Post by: Davel on January 27, 2019, 06:48:23 PM
My, my you really don’t want to answer my question do you ?

I already have done...which question do you want an answer to now...unlike others on this forum I have no problem answerring questions so fire away
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Faithlilly on January 27, 2019, 06:49:55 PM
Guidance on police naming suspects

In his 2012 ‘Report on the Culture Practices and Ethics of the Press’, Leveson LJ stated that ‘save in exceptional and clearly identified circumstances (eg, where there may be an immediate risk to the public), the names or identifying details of those who are arrested or suspected of a crime should not be released to the press nor the public’.

This view was echoed in the College of Policing’s 2013 ‘Guidance on Relationships with the Media’ which stated that ‘save in clearly identified circumstances, or where legal restrictions apply, the names or identifying details of those who are arrested or suspected of a crime should not be released by police forces to the press or the public’.

Such circumstances include a threat to life, the prevention or detection of crime or a matter of public interest and confidence. A decision to release the name of an arrested person should be made at a chief officer level and a record made of the reason for releasing the information. Forces may, however, provide non-identifiable information such as the age, gender, offence and a general location of arrest.

When someone is charged, the College of Policing guidance says, information released to the media can include the name, address, occupation and charge details for an adult and should be released where no legal restrictions apply. Crown Prosecution Service advice stipulates that if an individual is not named at point of charge, that decision should be taken in conjunction with them.

https://www.inbrief.co.uk/media-law/media-identification-of-suspects/
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 27, 2019, 06:55:37 PM
Guidance on police naming suspects

In his 2012 ‘Report on the Culture Practices and Ethics of the Press’, Leveson LJ stated that ‘save in exceptional and clearly identified circumstances (eg, where there may be an immediate risk to the public), the names or identifying details of those who are arrested or suspected of a crime should not be released to the press nor the public’.

This view was echoed in the College of Policing’s 2013 ‘Guidance on Relationships with the Media’ which stated that ‘save in clearly identified circumstances, or where legal restrictions apply, the names or identifying details of those who are arrested or suspected of a crime should not be released by police forces to the press or the public’.

Such circumstances include a threat to life, the prevention or detection of crime or a matter of public interest and confidence. A decision to release the name of an arrested person should be made at a chief officer level and a record made of the reason for releasing the information. Forces may, however, provide non-identifiable information such as the age, gender, offence and a general location of arrest.

When someone is charged, the College of Policing guidance says, information released to the media can include the name, address, occupation and charge details for an adult and should be released where no legal restrictions apply. Crown Prosecution Service advice stipulates that if an individual is not named at point of charge, that decision should be taken in conjunction with them.

https://www.inbrief.co.uk/media-law/media-identification-of-suspects/

You claim this is guidance on police naming suspects...it isnt....its guidance on the press naming suspects.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Faithlilly on January 27, 2019, 06:59:48 PM
You claim this is guidance on police naming suspects...it isnt....its guidance on the press naming suspects.


This view was echoed in the College of Policing’s 2013 ‘Guidance on Relationships with the Media’ which stated that ‘save in clearly identified circumstances, or where legal restrictions apply, the names or identifying details of those who are arrested or suspected of a crime should not be released by police forces to the press or the public’.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 27, 2019, 07:15:31 PM

This view was echoed in the College of Policing’s 2013 ‘Guidance on Relationships with the Media’ which stated that ‘save in clearly identified circumstances, or where legal restrictions apply, the names or identifying details of those who are arrested or suspected of a crime should not be released by police forces to the press or the public’.

you need to show the exact wording of the ...College of Policing’s 2013 ‘Guidance on Relationships with the Media’...because we know in reality....suspects names are regularly released.....


the GUIDANCEalso says this...
There is nothing to prevent police forces from naming an arrested person
where there is a policing purpose for doing so. The media will often
identify and name an arrested person without assistance from the police.
Individuals themselves have the right to inform others of their arrest.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 27, 2019, 07:18:03 PM

This view was echoed in the College of Policing’s 2013 ‘Guidance on Relationships with the Media’ which stated that ‘save in clearly identified circumstances, or where legal restrictions apply, the names or identifying details of those who are arrested or suspected of a crime should not be released by police forces to the press or the public’.
tell that to Sir Cliff.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Faithlilly on January 27, 2019, 07:27:45 PM
you need to show the exact wording of the ...College of Policing’s 2013 ‘Guidance on Relationships with the Media’...because we know in reality....suspects names are regularly released.....


the GUIDANCEalso says this...
There is nothing to prevent police forces from naming an arrested person
where there is a policing purpose for doing so. The media will often
identify and name an arrested person without assistance from the police.
Individuals themselves have the right to inform others of their arrest.

An arrested person.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 27, 2019, 07:32:40 PM
An arrested person.

so you are still under the delusion that police do not name suspects...because they do
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Faithlilly on January 27, 2019, 07:37:31 PM
so you are still under the delusion that police do not name suspects...because they do

Of course they do...the guidelines allow for it..


‘This view was echoed in the College of Policing’s 2013 ‘Guidance on Relationships with the Media’ which stated that ‘save in clearly identified circumstances, or where legal restrictions apply, the names or identifying details of those who are arrested or suspected of a crime should not be released by police forces to the press or the public’.

Such circumstances include a threat to life, the prevention or detection of crime or a matter of public interest and confidence.’
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 27, 2019, 07:49:09 PM
Of course they do...the guidelines allow for it..


‘This view was echoed in the College of Policing’s 2013 ‘Guidance on Relationships with the Media’ which stated that ‘save in clearly identified circumstances, or where legal restrictions apply, the names or identifying details of those who are arrested or suspected of a crime should not be released by police forces to the press or the public’.

Such circumstances include a threat to life, the prevention or detection of crime or a matter of public interest and confidence.’

the portuguese told us the mccanns were suspects...so why are they not telling us now
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 27, 2019, 07:53:30 PM
Of course they do...the guidelines allow for it..


‘This view was echoed in the College of Policing’s 2013 ‘Guidance on Relationships with the Media’ which stated that ‘save in clearly identified circumstances, or where legal restrictions apply, the names or identifying details of those who are arrested or suspected of a crime should not be released by police forces to the press or the public’.

Such circumstances include a threat to life, the prevention or detection of crime or a matter of public interest and confidence.’
I think those guidelines are so loose that the police would have no problem revealing that the McCanns were suspect, if indeed they were.  In fact it would pile so much pressure on them it would be a good tactical move, so why haven’t they done it, seeing as how the ONLY way of nailing them is if one of them cracks?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Faithlilly on January 27, 2019, 07:53:44 PM
the portuguese told us the mccanns were suspects...so why are they not telling us now

Sheesh....only after they had been they had been named arguido. It was emphatically denied that they were suspects before.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 27, 2019, 07:56:17 PM
Sheesh....only after they had been they had been named arguido. It was emphatically denied that they were suspects before.
And they are not arguidos now because...?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on January 27, 2019, 08:17:23 PM
And they are not arguidos now because...?


The same reason no one else is.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 27, 2019, 08:22:58 PM
Sheesh....only after they had been they had been named arguido. It was emphatically denied that they were suspects before.

You are talking about the initial investigation which has been shown to be totally inept
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 27, 2019, 08:30:26 PM

The same reason no one else is.
What reason is that?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 27, 2019, 09:37:44 PM
You are talking about the initial investigation which has been shown to be totally inept

Has it? By whom? You?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 27, 2019, 09:46:07 PM
Has it? By whom? You?

the investigation that didnt understand the forensic evidence...thats a fact....fortunately teh present investigation does...remember the proven facts...that arent proven
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Faithlilly on January 27, 2019, 10:02:38 PM
You are talking about the initial investigation which has been shown to be totally inept

Not important. We knew nothing official about the investigation or who the police were investigating until the parents were made arguidos. We won’t be told who OG are investigating, even when asked by the media, because it is against their guidelines, could leave them open to libel litigation ( and we know how litigious the parents are ) and may jeopardise any future trial.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Faithlilly on January 27, 2019, 10:25:05 PM

https://www.pressgazette.co.uk/new-police-media-guidelines-iset-out-new-wide-ranging-controls-contact-between-officers-and/

The guideliness appear to cement the status quo, where individual police officers (even at a senior level) are generally reluctant to speak to journalists. Earlier this month, former Guardian crime reporter Duncan Campbell told Press Gazette that serving officers even declined to speak to him for his research for a book about the history of crime reporting.
A number of police officers have been sacked, and even arrested, in recent years for giving unauthorised information to journalists where no money changed hands.
The guidelines state that all communications with media should be on the record and “reportable” apart from in “exceptional circumstances”.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Faithlilly on January 27, 2019, 10:26:29 PM
I think theres as much chance Grange are investigating you...and will arrest you shortly...as there is of them investigating the Mccanns...can you prove me wrong...QED and all that ????????

If such a thing was about to happen you wouldn’t hear about that either.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 27, 2019, 10:30:02 PM
If such a thing was about to happen you wouldn’t hear about that either.

so grange are not telling us if they are investigating you....they might be.. who knows
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Faithlilly on January 27, 2019, 10:39:33 PM
so grange are not telling us if they are investigating you....they might be.. who knows

Exactly, and why don’t you know ?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 27, 2019, 10:45:32 PM
Colin Sutton has said the parents are not being investigated, should we ignore him?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 27, 2019, 10:48:37 PM
Exactly, and why don’t you know ?

exactly... I dont know if grange are investigating you... I think its more likely they are than the mccanns...gunit sounds a bit suspicious... and perhaps angelos involved...who knows
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Faithlilly on January 28, 2019, 12:41:40 AM
exactly... I dont know if grange are investigating you... I think its more likely they are than the mccanns...gunit sounds a bit suspicious... and perhaps angelos involved...who knows

But why don’t you know if they are investigating me ?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Angelo222 on January 28, 2019, 01:11:23 AM
And they are not arguidos now because...?

Well according to the archive report it is because of an absence of evidence.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Angelo222 on January 28, 2019, 01:12:56 AM
You are talking about the initial investigation which has been shown to be totally inept

How inept?  We don't know what happened to the child yet, the Portuguese might have been spot on.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Angelo222 on January 28, 2019, 01:14:54 AM
I think theres as much chance Grange are investigating you...and will arrest you shortly...as there is of them investigating the Mccanns...can you prove me wrong...QED and all that ????????

That a pretty big claim considering the Portuguese Supreme Court has gone on record to state that they have not been cleared?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 28, 2019, 07:09:40 AM
Well according to the archive report it is because of an absence of evidence.
So that obviously continues to be the case doesn’t it, despite many more years of supposedly being investigated.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 28, 2019, 07:29:04 AM
How inept?  We don't know what happened to the child yet, the Portuguese might have been spot on.

We know fir a fact the initial investigation misunderstood  the evidence
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on January 28, 2019, 07:37:55 AM

We all know that Madeleine was abducted for some reason that is not yet known.  There is no other logical explanation.  But if some people want to go on trying to find ways in which to involve her parents then that is okay by me.

I have never been wild about Colin Sutton because he tried to make it all about him.  But I thought Martin Clune was wonderful.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 28, 2019, 08:57:36 AM
We know fir a fact the initial investigation misunderstood  the evidence

That's not a fact, that's your opinion.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: slartibartfast on January 28, 2019, 09:03:42 AM
We all know that Madeleine was abducted for some reason that is not yet known.  There is no other logical explanation.  But if some people want to go on trying to find ways in which to involve her parents then that is okay by me.

I have never been wild about Colin Sutton because he tried to make it all about him.  But I thought Martin Clune was wonderful.

We know Madeleine disappeared, there are lots of logical explanations for that.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 28, 2019, 09:12:44 AM
That's not a fact, that's your opinion.

No it's, a fact.... They thought the alerts confirmed cadaver... It's in the filesvas a proven fact.... Amaral said he could prove Maddie died in the apartment... Both false.... Not opinion... Fact
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on January 28, 2019, 09:14:18 AM
We know Madeleine disappeared, there are lots of logical explanations for that.

Parental Involvement isn't one of them.  Logistics just doesn't allow for this.  Presuming you understand Logistics, of course.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 28, 2019, 09:44:51 AM
No it's, a fact.... They thought the alerts confirmed cadaver... It's in the filesvas a proven fact.... Amaral said he could prove Maddie died in the apartment... Both false.... Not opinion... Fact

If it says in the flles that 'the alerts confirmed cadaver' (whatever that means) please provide a cite from those files. You can't quote Amaral as if he was representing the views of the investigation because he wasn't. He was giving his own oersonal opinion.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 28, 2019, 09:48:32 AM
If it says in the flles that 'the alerts confirmed cadaver' (whatever that means) please provide a cite from those files. You can't quote Amaral as if he was representing the views of the investigation because he wasn't. He was giving his own oersonal opinion.
Confirmation of cadaver is in the proven facts... Amaral claimed his views were shared by the investigation.   Is he not being truthful
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 28, 2019, 09:50:09 AM
If it says in the flles that 'the alerts confirmed cadaver' (whatever that means) please provide a cite from those files. You can't quote Amaral as if he was representing the views of the investigation because he wasn't. He was giving his own oersonal opinion.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on January 28, 2019, 10:08:03 AM
If it says in the flles that 'the alerts confirmed cadaver' (whatever that means) please provide a cite from those files. You can't quote Amaral as if he was representing the views of the investigation because he wasn't. He was giving his own oersonal opinion.

Which was Libellous, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Faithlilly on January 28, 2019, 10:45:37 AM
exactly... I dont know if grange are investigating you... I think its more likely they are than the mccanns...gunit sounds a bit suspicious... and perhaps angelos involved...who knows

Indeed. So why don’t you know if the police are investigating me ?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 28, 2019, 11:06:23 AM
Confirmation of cadaver is in the proven facts... Amaral claimed his views were shared by the investigation.   Is he not being truthful

Your original claim was that the initial investigation misunderstood the evidence. Please provide a cite from the PJ files confirming your claim.

AFAIK there are no 'proven facts' in the files.

You also claimed 'Amaral said he could prove Maddie died in the apartment'. Please note that claim is his, it has nothing to do with the investigation which clearly couldn't prove any such thing. If it had been able to the case wouldn't still be being investigated.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on January 28, 2019, 11:56:15 AM
If it says in the flles that 'the alerts confirmed cadaver' (whatever that means) please provide a cite from those files. You can't quote Amaral as if he was representing the views of the investigation because he wasn't. He was giving his own oersonal opinion.

Why did Colin Sutton's book on the vicious murder of Amélie Delagrange become a best seller?  Might it have any relevance to the fact that he was the senior investigating officer in the case which led to the conviction of her murderer who turned out to be a serial killer?

Why did Amaral's book on the unexplained disappearance of Madeleine McCann become a best seller ... bearing in mind there was no successful conclusion to the investigation?

Could it have been that purchasers were given the impression that as senior investigating officer at one time he was in possession of 'facts' of the case known only to him: the proverbial Ace up his sleeve springs to mind here?

Undoubtedly Sutton's book did exactly what it said on the cover.  A record of a successful investigation leading to evidence which could be led in court with the only speculation being how many other crimes the perpetrator had been guilty of.

Amaral's book on the other hand falls into the category which was warned about by public prosecutors Jose de Magalhaes e Menezes, and Joao Melchior Gomes when they said ...

"Finally, it should be underlined that this case, unfortunately, is not a police novel, an appropriate scenario for a "crime" that is tailored for the success of the investigative work of a Sherlock Holmes or a Hercule Poirot, guided by the illusion that the forces of law and justice always manage to re-establish the altered order, returning to society the peace and the tranquillity that were only accidentally disturbed.
 
The disappearance of Madeleine McCann is rather an implacable and intricate case of real life, which lies closer to the lucid narrative by Friedrich Duerrenmatt, - "The Pledge. Requiem for the police novel" – because reality and everyday life owe little or no obedience, most of the time, to logic.
 
Life's events do not conform to stereotyped novel-like schemes, it is rather the case that its outcome is often the product of chance or conditioned by accidental and unpredictable factors, and therefore, hard to envision."
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3750.msg141867#msg141867

Sutton's book no doubt contains examples of his "giving his own personal opinion" but his work did achieve the objective of removing an evil man to a place where he could harm no other young women and in his writing of it he did not set out to destroy the innocent.

Amaral's book "giving his own personal opinion" portrays on the contrary, an account of an unsuccessful police investigation the failure of which he justified by speculation and conspiracy theory.  Which targets the innocent who are also the victims and which instead of solving anything was a cog in the wheel of halting the official police investigation of the crime against a minor.

No official investigation took place between 2008 and 2010 ... only her parents kept faith with Madeleine. 

I really think that mentioning Amaral and Sutton in the same breath is an insult to the latter who wound up his police career on a worthwhile high.
 
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 28, 2019, 11:58:04 AM
Your original claim was that the initial investigation misunderstood the evidence. Please provide a cite from the PJ files confirming your claim.

AFAIK there are no 'proven facts' in the files.

You also claimed 'Amaral said he could prove Maddie died in the apartment'. Please note that claim is his, it has nothing to do with the investigation which clearly couldn't prove any such thing. If it had been able to the case wouldn't still be being investigated.

I've provided a cite from amaral.... How many times it is ckauned thst it wasn't just amaral who believed the mccanns were guilty... Then we have his book... Using the word we... He was speaking fir himself and other officers
Then we have the archiving report.... Which tells us what evidence was used to make the mccanns arguidos..

from the files.....almeidas report..

It must be highlighted that the resource to this kind of inspection is frequent in the UK and the success rate is 100%.

One of the dogs is trained to detect the odour of cadaver and the other to identify vestiges of human blood.

We refer now that the location of the cadaver odours signifies that physically the body (cadaver) is not on the place, marked by the dog, but certainly it has been there, as long as the dog signals it.


read almeidas report..its full of false claims
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: slartibartfast on January 28, 2019, 12:05:27 PM
Parental Involvement isn't one of them.  Logistics just doesn't allow for this.  Presuming you understand Logistics, of course.

Of course it does.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 28, 2019, 12:11:04 PM
I've provided a cite from amaral.... How many times it is ckauned thst it wasn't just amaral who believed the mccanns were guilty... Then we have his book... Using the word we... He was speaking fir himself and other officers
Then we have the archiving report.... Which tells us what evidence was used to make the mccanns arguidos

If you're so confident of your 'facts' you will be able to confirm them by providing cires from the PJ files showiing that the initial investigation misunderstood the evidemce. I have reason to believe that it's no longer acceptable to refuse to do so.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 28, 2019, 12:11:54 PM
If you're so confident of your 'facts' you will be able to confirm them by providing cires from the PJ files showiing that the initial investigation misunderstood the evidemce. I have reason to believe that it's no longer acceptable to refuse to do so.

have you read the report by Almeida...


Not less relevant is the refinement of the results that point towards Madeleine's DNA as being present at the apartment 5A behind the sofa, a place marked by the cadaver and the blood dog. In every place marked by the blood dog it was confirmed there was DNA.


that is not true
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on January 28, 2019, 12:18:58 PM
have you read the report by Almeida

Is that the one translated by LUZ with the heading ...
A report by Chief Inspector Tavares de Almeida to the Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation

Where he concludes, after analyzing all the evidence gathered, that the child is dead and the parents were responsible for cadaver occultation, and the entire GROUP was lying since the first day of the investigation.

10 September 2007
(Processo: VOL ,X, p. 2587-2602)
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 28, 2019, 12:21:02 PM
Is that the one translated by LUZ with the heading ...
A report by Chief Inspector Tavares de Almeida to the Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation

Where he concludes, after analyzing all the evidence gathered, that the child is dead and the parents were responsible for cadaver occultation, and the entire GROUP was lying since the first day of the investigation.

10 September 2007
(Processo: VOL ,X, p. 2587-2602)
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm

thats the one..its in the FILES
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on January 28, 2019, 12:37:42 PM
thats the one..its in the FILES

Even allowing for what may very well be a poor translation ... I think it is indeed a document whose 'conclusions' on which so many of the myths of Madeleine's case appear to be based is risible in the extreme.

Madeleine's case has progressed so far beyond that I find rereading the misconceptions it contains are a bit of an embarrassment when one considers this represents official police findings of the time and must have played its part in having her parents constituted arguidos.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 28, 2019, 01:21:50 PM
have you read the report by Almeida...


Not less relevant is the refinement of the results that point towards Madeleine's DNA as being present at the apartment 5A behind the sofa, a place marked by the cadaver and the blood dog. In every place marked by the blood dog it was confirmed there was DNA.


that is not true

There was no evidence that 'pointed towards' Maeleine's DNA being behind the sofa? Swab 3a was taken from behind the sofa;

An incomplete DNA result was obtained from cellular material on the swab 3a. The swab contained very little information and showed low level indications of DNA from more than one person. However, all of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Madeline McCann.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm

That certainly suggests (or points to) Madeleine's DNA being behind the sofa. It's a fact that all Keela's indications  resulted in DNA being found.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 28, 2019, 01:26:03 PM
Is that the one translated by LUZ with the heading ...
A report by Chief Inspector Tavares de Almeida to the Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation

Where he concludes, after analyzing all the evidence gathered, that the child is dead and the parents were responsible for cadaver occultation, and the entire GROUP was lying since the first day of the investigation.

10 September 2007
(Processo: VOL ,X, p. 2587-2602)
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm

Which, it is alleged, was due to 'misunderstanding the evidence'. It is that which I require a cite for;which evidence was misunderstood?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 28, 2019, 01:27:03 PM
There was no evidence that 'pointed towards' Maeleine's DNA being behind the sofa? Swab 3a was taken from behind the sofa;

An incomplete DNA result was obtained from cellular material on the swab 3a. The swab contained very little information and showed low level indications of DNA from more than one person. However, all of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Madeline McCann.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm

That certainly suggests (or points to) Madeleine's DNA being behind the sofa. It's a fact that all Keela's indications  resulted in DNA being found.

That result dies not point the DNA being maddies... That's, quite untrue
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 28, 2019, 01:31:07 PM
Which, it is alleged, was due to 'misunderstanding the evidence'. It is that which I require a cite for;which evidence was misunderstood?

The dog evidence is the main one... The idea that the dogs have a 100% record.... Untrue... The idea that the alerts signalled the past presence if a cadaver..untrue.... I quoted a Guardian article where almeida said the main evidence against the mccanns were the dogs... They have no evidential value
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 28, 2019, 01:41:17 PM
 Inspector Tavares de Almeida said he believed the British child had died in her family's apartment in the Algarve resort of Praia da Luz on the day she went missing. He told the court the main evidence for this was the findings of British police sniffer dogs sent to Portugal to examine the flat. The McCanns' lawyer, Isabel Duarte, challenged this claim, arguing that the results from sniffer dogs did not constitute proof and were not allowed as evidence in the case.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 28, 2019, 01:56:03 PM
We all know that Madeleine was abducted for some reason that is not yet known.  There is no other logical explanation.  But if some people want to go on trying to find ways in which to involve her parents then that is okay by me.

I have never been wild about Colin Sutton because he tried to make it all about him.  But I thought Martin Clune was wonderful.

No other explanation  @)(++(* They will explain the 12+ million. Obviously it's a special case.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 28, 2019, 02:17:45 PM
That result dies not point the DNA being maddies... That's, quite untrue

That's a matter of opinion, not of fact.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 28, 2019, 02:27:51 PM
Inspector Tavares de Almeida said he believed the British child had died in her family's apartment in the Algarve resort of Praia da Luz on the day she went missing. He told the court the main evidence for this was the findings of British police sniffer dogs sent to Portugal to examine the flat. The McCanns' lawyer, Isabel Duarte, challenged this claim, arguing that the results from sniffer dogs did not constitute proof and were not allowed as evidence in the case.

Please provide a cite for that.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 28, 2019, 02:31:49 PM
Please provide a cite for that.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/jan/12/madeleine-mccann-parents-defamation-book
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 28, 2019, 02:37:01 PM
That's a matter of opinion, not of fact.

It isn't... It's a scientific fact... The DNA did not point to Maddie... It was inconclusive..
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on January 28, 2019, 02:56:55 PM
That's a matter of opinion, not of fact.

It can't be an Opinion.  It's either true or not.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 28, 2019, 03:22:21 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/jan/12/madeleine-mccann-parents-defamation-book

Thank you.  Alneida claimed to have formed an opinion. That was his prerogative, surely? His belief wasn't based entirely on the dog alerts, by the way, there was other evidece.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 28, 2019, 03:25:37 PM
It can't be an Opinion.  It's either true or not.

The FSS didn't say either way.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 28, 2019, 04:00:44 PM
Thank you.  Alneida claimed to have formed an opinion. That was his prerogative, surely? His belief wasn't based entirely on the dog alerts, by the way, there was other evidece.

He said the main evidence was the dogs... Then he says the DNA pointed to Maddie.... That isn't what the FSS, said
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 28, 2019, 04:01:59 PM
The FSS didn't say either way.

They didnt say it pointed to Maddie
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 28, 2019, 05:56:27 PM
Thank you.  Alneida claimed to have formed an opinion. That was his prerogative, surely? His belief wasn't based entirely on the dog alerts, by the way, there was other evidece.
Cite please.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 28, 2019, 06:08:15 PM
They didnt say it pointed to Maddie

They gave no opinion either way. Therefore, as they didn't rule out the possibility that it belonged to Madeleine Almeida was entitled to form his own opinion. 
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 28, 2019, 06:13:25 PM
They gave no opinion either way. Therefore, as they didn't rule out the possibility that it belonged to Madeleine Almeida was entitled to form his own opinion.
He can have any opinion he wants... But he should not present it as fact...... When the, evidence does not support it..
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 28, 2019, 06:17:37 PM
Cite please.

Where there is a reference to the 'main' evidence it's obviously not the only evidence. The rest of it can be found in his report which you can find here;

Where he concludes, after analyzing all the evidence gathered, that the child is dead and the parents were responsible for cadaver occultation, and the entire GROUP was lying since the first day of the investigation.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm

He told the court the main evidence for this was the findings of British police sniffer dogs sent to Portugal to examine the flat.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10539.msg511786#msg511786
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 28, 2019, 06:20:01 PM
Where there is a reference to the 'main' evidence it's obviously not the only evidence. The rest of it can be found in his report which you can find here;

Where he concludes, after analyzing all the evidence gathered, that the child is dead and the parents were responsible for cadaver occultation, and the entire GROUP was lying since the first day of the investigation.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm

He told the court the main evidence for this was the findings of British police sniffer dogs sent to Portugal to examine the flat.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10539.msg511786#msg511786

Did he not realise the alerts have no evidential value or reliability.....
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 28, 2019, 06:25:22 PM
He can have any opinion he wants... But he should not present it as fact...... When the, evidence does not support it..

Do you think saying A 'points to' B is a statement of fact?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 28, 2019, 06:25:57 PM
Where there is a reference to the 'main' evidence it's obviously not the only evidence. The rest of it can be found in his report which you can find here;

Where he concludes, after analyzing all the evidence gathered, that the child is dead and the parents were responsible for cadaver occultation, and the entire GROUP was lying since the first day of the investigation.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm

He told the court the main evidence for this was the findings of British police sniffer dogs sent to Portugal to examine the flat.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10539.msg511786#msg511786
so remove the dog alerts and what have you got?  Pretty much nothing as evidenced by the report.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 28, 2019, 06:41:22 PM
Do you think saying A 'points to' B is a statement of fact?

It is a, statement of fact
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 28, 2019, 07:03:56 PM
It is a, statement of fact

It isn't. It's a suggestion.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 28, 2019, 07:25:03 PM
It isn't. It's a suggestion.
”A may point to B” is a suggestion.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 28, 2019, 07:28:57 PM
It isn't. It's a suggestion.

Everything I have posted points to the PJ not having a proper understanding of the evidence
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 28, 2019, 08:16:34 PM
A may point to B is a sugestion.

If Madeleine's DNA was found behind rhe couch that could 'point to' various scenaruis. In Ameida's opinion it pointed to her death.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 28, 2019, 08:44:55 PM
If Madeleine's DNA was found behind rhe couch that could 'point to' various scenaruis. In Ameida's opinion it pointed to her death.
So what?  Did he list all the possible scenarios?  Did he express any doubt? 
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 28, 2019, 09:03:50 PM
If Madeleine's DNA was found behind rhe couch that could 'point to' various scenaruis. In Ameida's opinion it pointed to her death.
Then it points to his poor logic in assessing evidence....
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 28, 2019, 09:05:58 PM
So what?  Did he list all the possible scenarios?  Did he express any doubt?

Why should he? Why shouldn't he form a belief? It seems to me that's endemic in this case.

Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 28, 2019, 09:33:56 PM
Why should he? Why shouldn't he form a belief? It seems to me that's endemic in this case.
As a professional his belief as articulated in an official document should be backed up by solid evidence.  He thought the dog alerts supported his belief but he was wrong to suppose it as they had no evidential value.. 
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on January 28, 2019, 10:54:46 PM
Why is it extraordinary that a DNA match for Madeleine was found in a place where it is known that she had been in residence?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 29, 2019, 06:35:32 AM
As a professional his belief as articulated in an official document should be backed up by solid evidence.  He thought the dog alerts supported his belief but he was wrong to suppose it as they had no evidential value..

You seem to expect the police to conpletely ignore any dog alert that doesn't uncover a body or DNA. That would be ridiculous. 
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 29, 2019, 06:47:26 AM
Why is it extraordinary that a DNA match for Madeleine was found in a place where it is known that she had been in residence?

If the DNA behind the couch was Madeleine's how did she leave bodily fluids in an inaccesible place?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 29, 2019, 07:16:10 AM
If the DNA behind the couch was Madeleine's how did she leave bodily fluids in an inaccesible place?
Bodily fluids??
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 29, 2019, 07:18:11 AM
You seem to expect the police to conpletely ignore any dog alert that doesn't uncover a body or DNA. That would be ridiculous.
Explain why it would be ridiculous.  Almeida seemed quite happy to ignore or disbelieve human testimony, why should dogs be listened to in preference?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 29, 2019, 07:42:55 AM
Bodily fluids??

That's what the FSS said;

it is not possible to attribute this DNA profile to a particular body fluid.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 29, 2019, 07:49:23 AM
Explain why it would be ridiculous.  Almeida seemed quite happy to ignore or disbelieve human testimony, why should dogs be listened to in preference?

Well I have heard of no case where the police completely ignored dog alerts. In the Suzanne Pilley case the unconfirmed dog alerts were very helpful as an aid to working out what happened.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 29, 2019, 08:02:58 AM
That's what the FSS said;

it is not possible to attribute this DNA profile to a particular body fluid.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm
That doesn’t sound to me like it was definitely a bodily fluid.  But...presumably it could have come from a bogey flicked behind the sofa.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 29, 2019, 08:05:17 AM
If the DNA behind the couch was Madeleine's how did she leave bodily fluids in an inaccesible place?

The PJ used inconclusive alerts and an in conclusive DNA, sample to reach their conclusions.... That makes their conclusions inconclusive
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 29, 2019, 08:05:44 AM
Well I have heard of no case where the police completely ignored dog alerts. In the Suzanne Pilley case the unconfirmed dog alerts were very helpful as an aid to working out what happened.
Who is talking about completely ignoring them?  Basing your entire belief around them is quite another thing.  I take it you disagree with the expert Martin Grime about dog alerts having no evidential reliability on their own?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on January 29, 2019, 09:12:31 AM
That's what the FSS said;

it is not possible to attribute this DNA profile to a particular body fluid.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm

 However, all of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Madeline McCann. LCN DNA profiling is highly sensitive it is not possible to attribute this DNA profile to a particular body fluid.

There is no evidence to support the view that Madeline MCCann contributed DNA to the swab 3B.

Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 29, 2019, 09:14:40 AM
That doesn’t sound to me like it was definitely a bodily fluid.  But...presumably it could have come from a bogey flicked behind the sofa.

Yes indeed. Keela that blood detection dog had a habit of alerting to anything and everything but blood. 
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 29, 2019, 09:25:21 AM
Well. despite strenuous efforts I have seen nothing which shows that the initial investigation misunderstood the evidence. They gathered a body of evidence which suggested to them that there was no abduction and that Madeleine may have died in 5A. They couldn't prove their hypothesis, but no-one has disproved it either.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 29, 2019, 11:26:54 AM
Well. despite strenuous efforts I have seen nothing which shows that the initial investigation misunderstood the evidence. They gathered a body of evidence which suggested to them that there was no abduction and that Madeleine may have died in 5A. They couldn't prove their hypothesis, but no-one has disproved it either.

The body of evidence suggested to them....but the main evidence... The dogs... Had no evidential value.... And the DNA could not be shown to be from Madeleine... Hence they didn't understand the evidence..  It's quite clear that neither piece if their so called evidence supported their conclusion... As shown by the archiving report
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 29, 2019, 12:25:34 PM
The body of evidence suggested to them....but the main evidence... The dogs... Had no evidential value.... And the DNA could not be shown to be from Madeleine... Hence they didn't understand the evidence..  It's quite clear that neither piece if their so called evidence supported their conclusion... As shown by the archiving report

I think you should stop trying to prove that your opinion has more value than that of the PJ.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 29, 2019, 12:38:42 PM
I think you should stop trying to prove that your opinion has more value than that of the PJ.
I'm showing that Grimes opinion... And the opinion of the FSS has more value than the original opinion of the pj.... It's clear that their conclusion was not based on evidence
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 29, 2019, 01:39:44 PM
I'm showing that Grimes opinion... And the opinion of the FSS has more value than the original opinion of the pj.... It's clear that their conclusion was not based on evidence

I have argued previously that your interpretation of Grime's opinion is incorrect and misleading. As to the FSS they gave no opinion on swab 3A;

An incomplete DNA result was obtained from cellular material on the swab 3a. The swab contained very little information and showed low level indications of DNA from more than one person. However, all of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Madeline McCann.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm

That is very similar to this, which has been accepted without question;

An incomplete, low-level DNA profile that matched corresponding components in the profile of Gerald McCann was obtained from cellular material present on the card key
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 29, 2019, 02:27:38 PM
I have argued previously that your interpretation of Grime's opinion is incorrect and misleading. As to the FSS they gave no opinion on swab 3A;

An incomplete DNA result was obtained from cellular material on the swab 3a. The swab contained very little information and showed low level indications of DNA from more than one person. However, all of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Madeline McCann.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm

That is very similar to this, which has been accepted without question;

An incomplete, low-level DNA profile that matched corresponding components in the profile of Gerald McCann was obtained from cellular material present on the card key
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm

You would need to read the while report on the DNA samples
The DNA evidence does not show that the sample came fron Maddie... The FSS explained these markers are common to a lot of people... And the alerts themselves are not evidence...
You refuse to accept reality imo


EtA.... You will find the difference in the DNA is because the sample in the key FOB came from one person... Whilst the previous one came from 3 to 5 people... Can you see the difference

That's, what happens when people who don't understand  the forensics draw their own conclusions
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 29, 2019, 02:49:19 PM
You would need to read the while report on the DNA samples
The DNA evidence does not show that the sample came fron Maddie... The FSS explained these markers are common to a lot of people... And the alerts themselves are not evidence...
You refuse to accept reality imo


EtA.... You will find the difference in the DNA is because the sample in the key FOB came from one person... Whilst the previous one came from 3 to 5 people... Can you see the difference

I see no point in continuimg to argue about opinions., which are all you have  despite your belieg that you have more.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 29, 2019, 03:04:45 PM
I see no point in continuimg to argue about opinions., which are all you have  despite your belieg that you have more.

Yes best left there... My facts vs the PJs opinions
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 29, 2019, 05:28:34 PM
Yes indeed. Keela that blood detection dog had a habit of alerting to anything and everything but blood.
???  Bogeys can contain traces of blood you know.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 29, 2019, 05:31:20 PM
Well. despite strenuous efforts I have seen nothing which shows that the initial investigation misunderstood the evidence. They gathered a body of evidence which suggested to them that there was no abduction and that Madeleine may have died in 5A. They couldn't prove their hypothesis, but no-one has disproved it either.
What is the body of evidence that suggests there was no abduction?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on January 30, 2019, 05:45:47 PM
Blimey over 24 hours without a single post in this part of the forum, how marvellous!   8((()*/
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on January 30, 2019, 06:02:07 PM
Blimey over 24 hours without a single post in this part of the forum, how marvellous!   8((()*/

Everyone is far too busy fighting over Brexit.  And no one is particularly interested in the opinion of the only Member who has actually lived in France permanently for twenty five years.

But then I am all about Food Banks due to my appalling British State Pension.

Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 30, 2019, 06:14:43 PM
Everyone is far too busy fighting over Brexit.  And no one is particularly interested in the opinion of the only Member who has actually lived in France permanently for twenty five years.

But then I am all about Food Banks due to my appalling British State Pension.

No-one who lives in the UK is expected to live on the basic state Pension.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on January 30, 2019, 06:21:35 PM
No-one who lives in the UK is expected to live on the basic state Pension.

So the British State Pension isn't fit for purpose.  So much for paying for it for all of your working life.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: jassi on January 30, 2019, 06:32:42 PM
Not helped by a plummeting pound of course.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on January 30, 2019, 06:34:14 PM
Not helped by a plummeting pound of course.

Yep.  Even The Pound isn't fit for purpose.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Erngath on January 30, 2019, 07:02:43 PM
So the British State Pension isn't fit for purpose.  So much for paying for it for all of your working life.

I paid towards my state pension all of my working life and also paid a large amount of superannuation each month of my working life and it  is this pension  which ensures we can live fairly comfortably.
But how I resented the money at the time and I was often tempted to stop payment but now of course I am glad I did not.

The young generation are having to plough much more of their income into future pensions and will have to wait til nearer their seventies to retire.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Erngath on January 30, 2019, 07:03:40 PM
Blimey over 24 hours without a single post in this part of the forum, how marvellous!   8((()*/

Surely there is nothing new to say.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Robittybob1 on January 30, 2019, 10:44:35 PM
Surely there is nothing new to say.
Makes being a moderator easy.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 31, 2019, 07:46:17 AM
I paid towards my state pension all of my working life and also paid a large amount of superannuation each month of my working life and it  is this pension  which ensures we can live fairly comfortably.
But how I resented the money at the time and I was often tempted to stop payment but now of course I am glad I did not.

The young generation are having to plough much more of their income into future pensions and will have to wait til nearer their seventies to retire.

I got my pension at 60, but worked until I was 70. I think a lot of people are able to do that these days.

Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: slartibartfast on January 31, 2019, 08:30:27 AM
So the British State Pension isn't fit for purpose.  So much for paying for it for all of your working life.

Reading up on other European Pensions it appears most require significant contributions through your working life, hence it is comparing apples and oranges. The British State pension was designed to cover the approx 5 years between retirement and death.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on January 31, 2019, 08:33:11 AM
Reading up on other European Pensions it appears most require significant contributions through your working life, hence it is comparing apples and oranges. The British State pension was designed to cover the approx 5 years between retirement and death.

I decided to live a bit longer.  Sorry about that.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: slartibartfast on January 31, 2019, 08:46:28 AM
I decided to live a bit longer.  Sorry about that.

Glad you did, just pointing out the basis on which the pension was established.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on January 31, 2019, 08:55:42 AM
Glad you did, just pointing out the basis on which the pension was established.

Yes, I know.  This fact has long been played down.  It was such an insulting attitude.  Fortunately, the powers that be at the time had no real conception of The War Generation Survivors.  We are tough old cookies.  I shall get my pound of flesh.  It's wot keeps me going.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Erngath on January 31, 2019, 09:02:23 AM
I got my pension at 60, but worked until I was 70. I think a lot of people are able to do that these days.

Your circumstances may have been different but generally most.people begin their working life.by the time they are twenty, if not even earlier and in my opinion working for forty five years is quite long enough.


I began teaching at nineteen and retired at sixty, having had eight years away while my children were under school age.
I retired at sixty and my position was taken by a young teacher who until then had.had only temporary appointments.

My own feeling is that.if someone has the financial capability to retire, then they should.indeed do so and allow their.job to be.taken by a young person who is seeking employment.
The retired person can always find satisfaction in voluntary work.

This of course would be personal choice, and no one should be forced to retire.

I cannot think of any almost seventy year old Primary teacher having the stamina to continue teaching  infant or junior classes.lol
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Erngath on January 31, 2019, 09:06:51 AM
Yes, I know.  This fact has long been played down.  It was such an insulting attitude.  Fortunately, the powers that be at the time had no real conception of The War Generation Survivors.  We are tough old cookies.  I shall get my pound of flesh.  It's wot keeps me going.

Quite right.
My father took early retirement at sixty and made full use of his pension for over thirty years.
He definitely got his pound of flesh.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on January 31, 2019, 09:19:27 AM
I started work at 15 and stopped working at 75.  I still needed to earn money, and I still needed a new roof, which wasn't going to get paid for out of my Pension.

As it is, The Food Bank here is helping to pay for three new front doors, or will when I have saved enough.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: jassi on January 31, 2019, 09:25:49 AM
Your circumstances may have been different but generally most.people begin their working life.by the time they are twenty, if not even earlier and in my opinion working for forty five years is quite long enough.


I began teaching at nineteen and retired at sixty, having had eight years away while my children were under school age.
I retired at sixty and my position was taken by a young teacher who until then had.had only temporary appointments.

My own feeling is that.if someone has the financial capability to retire, then they should.indeed do so and allow their.job to be.taken by a young person who is seeking employment.
The retired person can always find satisfaction in voluntary work.

This of course would be personal choice, and no one should be forced to retire.

I cannot think of any almost seventy year old Primary teacher having the stamina to continue teaching  infant or junior classes.lol

 8((()*/  40 years working in the NHS is more than enough for anyone
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on January 31, 2019, 09:36:29 AM
8((()*/  40 years working in the NHS is more than enough for anyone

And should warrant a half decent State Pension.  I was watching a Shelf Stacker in a supermarket yesterday.  What a soul destroying job.
Cleaning other people's lavatories was marginally more interesting.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 31, 2019, 09:44:29 AM
The state pension is not enough to live n but is topped up in the UK by a generous benefit system.... A generous benefit system thst is open to any EU resident who comes to live in the UK... Cameron tried to limit this and got short shrift from the EU.... As I understand  that's one of the points, that tipped him towards, a referendum... We simply couldn't afford to pay benefits to EU citizens.. Some who didn't even live in the country
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on January 31, 2019, 09:51:36 AM
The state pension is not enough to live n but is topped up in the UK by a generous benefit system.... A generous benefit system thst is open to any EU resident who comes to live in the UK... Cameron tried to limit this and got short shrift from the EU.... As I understand  that's one of the points, that tipped him towards, a referendum... We simply couldn't afford to pay benefits to EU citizens.. Some who didn't even live in the country

I qualify for No Benefits at all, although I don't have problem with this.  I don't live in Britain.  Thank God.

But I do have a problem with The Winter Fuel Allowance, of which I have been deprived.  It's tropical here according to Osbourne.  Oh Really.  Such perfidy is incomprehensible.

The Winter Fuel Allowance was and is not a Benefit.  It was awarded to all Pensioners to redress the dire amount of Pensions in some small part.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 31, 2019, 09:56:16 AM
I qualify for No Benefits at all, although I don't have problem with this.  I don't live in Britain.  Thank God.

But I do have a problem with The Winter Fuel Allowance, of which I have been deprived.  It's tropical here according to Osbourne.  Oh Really.  Such perfidy is incomprehensible.

The Winter Fuel Allowance was and is not a Benefit.  It was awarded to all Pensioners to redress the dire amount of Pensions in some small part.

I see no problem paying benefits to British citizens who don't live in this country... I'm talking about paying benefits to EU citizens who have never set foot in this country
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 31, 2019, 10:16:45 AM
Your circumstances may have been different but generally most.people begin their working life.by the time they are twenty, if not even earlier and in my opinion working for forty five years is quite long enough.


I began teaching at nineteen and retired at sixty, having had eight years away while my children were under school age.
I retired at sixty and my position was taken by a young teacher who until then had.had only temporary appointments.

My own feeling is that.if someone has the financial capability to retire, then they should.indeed do so and allow their.job to be.taken by a young person who is seeking employment.
The retired person can always find satisfaction in voluntary work.

This of course would be personal choice, and no one should be forced to retire.

I cannot think of any almost seventy year old Primary teacher having the stamina to continue teaching  infant or junior classes.lol

Of course it depends on the job. Mine was suitable, but others aren't. I was taught English Literature at College by a lady of 70 who was a 'supply' lecturer. She loved her subject and still wanted ro share her in-depth knowlege of it.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 31, 2019, 10:21:15 AM
I qualify for No Benefits at all, although I don't have problem with this.  I don't live in Britain.  Thank God.

But I do have a problem with The Winter Fuel Allowance, of which I have been deprived.  It's tropical here according to Osbourne.  Oh Really.  Such perfidy is incomprehensible.

The Winter Fuel Allowance was and is not a Benefit.  It was awarded to all Pensioners to redress the dire amount of Pensions in some small part.

I remember my boss saying he was embarassed to be getting it as he didn't need it. He moved to a chateau in France when he retired, so I expect he's embarassed no longer lol.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Erngath on January 31, 2019, 10:38:49 AM
Of course it depends on the job. Mine was suitable, but others aren't. I was taught English Literature at College by a lady of 70 who was a 'supply' lecturer. She loved her subject and still wanted ro share her in-depth knowlege of it.

I can imagine she did.
I'm not sure I would have enjoyed being in charge.of thirty little children, especially PE lessons. @)(++(*
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on January 31, 2019, 10:43:10 AM
I remember my boss saying he was embarassed to be getting it as he didn't need it. He moved to a chateau in France when he retired, so I expect he's embarassed no longer lol.

The Winter Fuel Allowance is still not a Benefit.  And some of us do need it.  I spent many Winters here being very cold.
10 Degrees in my house because I couldn't afford to run up heating bills, so I sat in bed with hot water bottles and one bar of an electric fire, although even that cost money.

Things are better now because my son acquired a wood burner, and for which he also works to acquire wood. 

This is the reality of people living on State Pensions.  Eat or Freeze.  Although perhaps only for ExPats.

Your Boss at least confirms that it is not a Benefit, or Means Tested.

The fact that Old Age Pensioners in Britain are still sometimes required to apply for Benefits completely incenses me.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 31, 2019, 11:09:38 AM
I can imagine she did.
I'm not sure I would have enjoyed being in charge.of thirty little children, especially PE lessons. @)(++(*

I once helped out with a scheme which offered actibities for small children. We took them to a park with a paddling pool and they all threw off their shoes and socks and headed for the water. I then learned that small children don't always recognise their own socks. I still don't know how many went home in the socks they arrived in. Small children are hard work.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Erngath on January 31, 2019, 11:21:32 AM
Quote from: G-Unit link=topic=10539.msg512wit=1548932978
I once helped out with a scheme which offered actibities for small children. We took them to a park with a paddling pool and they all threw off their shoes and socks and headed for the water. I then learned that small children don't always recognise their own socks. I still don't know how many went home in the socks they arrived in. Small children are hard work.


 Indeed.
That seems very familiar.
The most exhausting days were not ones spent teaching but school outings.
Continually counting little people, dealing with toileting and feeling sick issues and even worse the time spent in the gift shops which nowadays seem to b at every school outing venue.
I used to come home, slump into a comfortable chair and reach.for a glass.of wine
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on January 31, 2019, 11:39:13 AM
I see no problem paying benefits to British citizens who don't live in this country... I'm talking about paying benefits to EU citizens who have never set foot in this country

But they aren't, are they?  If they eventually do live and work in UK, then I don't have a problem with that either.

I was actually offered a French Supplement on my British State Pension, to approximately 200 Euros a month.  But this remains recoverable from your Estate when you die.  This is a fact.  And there was no way in which I was going to leave that sort of debt to my children.  If I live to be over 100, which I have every intention of doing, then it could even amount to everything I own.  So everything about my life, my home and my family would have been for nothing.

Besides, I am very good when the going gets a bit rough.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 31, 2019, 11:45:05 AM


 Indeed.
That seems very familiar.
The most exhausting days were not ones spent teaching but school outings.
Continually counting little people, dealing with toileting and feeling sick issues and even worse the time spent in the gift shops which nowadays seem to b at every school outing venue.
I used to come home, slump into a comfortable chair and reach.for a glass.of wine

Had I decided to teach teenagers would have been my choice. I've always liked them because I always found them fascinating. I was a youth leader and had great outings with the teens. We went to ice skating, swmming, speedway, football matches and amusement parks. I didn't have to worry about their socks either. My biggest task was teaching them that they should operate as a team and not ignore or exclude the less popular members. .
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on January 31, 2019, 11:49:16 AM
Any minute now we're all going to be told to get back on topic.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on January 31, 2019, 11:49:47 AM
I once helped out with a scheme which offered actibities for small children. We took them to a park with a paddling pool and they all threw off their shoes and socks and headed for the water. I then learned that small children don't always recognise their own socks. I still don't know how many went home in the socks they arrived in. Small children are hard work.

I ran a Nursery School in Singapore for three years.  And my small Nursery School Children were so much fun.  None of it was ever hard work, once I sorted that it wasn't Kevin who was doing the bullying.  He just always got the blame.  That was one of my really important accomplishments.  His parents were in despair, when in fact he was just a nice little boy who was fair game.  I do so hope that this made a difference to his life.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on January 31, 2019, 11:51:47 AM
Any minute now we're all going to be told to get back on topic.

Hopefully John will hive it off.  It is worth a Thread of it's own.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 31, 2019, 12:00:24 PM
But they aren't, are they?  If they eventually do live and work in UK, then I don't have a problem with that either.

I was actually offered a French Supplement on my British State Pension, to approximately 200 Euros a month.  But this remains recoverable from your Estate when you die.  This is a fact.  And there was no way in which I was going to leave that sort of debt to my children.  If I live to be over 100, which I have every intention of doing, then it could even amount to everything I own.  So everything about my life, my home and my family would have been for nothing.

Besides, I am very good when the going gets a bit rough.

benefits have and probabaly are still being paid to EU children...family members of people here...who have never been to the uk.......theres no stipulation to work.....we have a good benefit system but it neeeds some control over who receives benefits
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on January 31, 2019, 12:11:02 PM
benefits have and probabaly are still being paid to EU children...family members of people here...who have never been to the uk.......theres no stipulation to work.....we have a good benefit system but it neeeds some control over who receives benefits

How do they do this?  Is this Child Allowance for children who are separated from their parents who are working in UK?  Are these parents entitled to Child Allowance?  I don't know anymore.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on January 31, 2019, 01:52:06 PM
How do they do this?  Is this Child Allowance for children who are separated from their parents who are working in UK?  Are these parents entitled to Child Allowance?  I don't know anymore.

It seems parents in the UK are entitled to claim chid benefit for children living in their home country... I doubt the parents have to be working
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: jassi on January 31, 2019, 02:07:50 PM


David Gauke, the Treasury minister, published the figures for payments to 23,855 families, who live outside the UK but in the European Union, in response to a question from the Conservative MP Priti Patel.

By far the biggest proportion of children for whom claims are being made – nearly two-thirds – are living in Poland. The remaining third of claimants are in the other 25 EU countries and three others: Iceland, Norway and Switzerland. In all cases, families can claim £20.30 for the first child and £13.40 for each subsequent child.

Patel said the figures were "alarming". "Hard-pressed taxpayers are going to be absolutely appalled to see money leeching out of their pockets to pay these payments at a time when [they] are squeezed anyway," she said.

The Treasury defended the overseas payments, saying that they were obliged under European law, and pointed out that claims could only be made if at least one parent was working in the UK and paying National Insurance."These payments make up less than 0.5% of child benefit awards," added a Treasury spokesman.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/oct/23/child-benefit-payments-outside-uk
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on January 31, 2019, 03:35:59 PM

David Gauke, the Treasury minister, published the figures for payments to 23,855 families, who live outside the UK but in the European Union, in response to a question from the Conservative MP Priti Patel.

By far the biggest proportion of children for whom claims are being made – nearly two-thirds – are living in Poland. The remaining third of claimants are in the other 25 EU countries and three others: Iceland, Norway and Switzerland. In all cases, families can claim £20.30 for the first child and £13.40 for each subsequent child.

Patel said the figures were "alarming". "Hard-pressed taxpayers are going to be absolutely appalled to see money leeching out of their pockets to pay these payments at a time when [they] are squeezed anyway," she said.

The Treasury defended the overseas payments, saying that they were obliged under European law, and pointed out that claims could only be made if at least one parent was working in the UK and paying National Insurance."These payments make up less than 0.5% of child benefit awards," added a Treasury spokesman.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/oct/23/child-benefit-payments-outside-uk

I don't see a problem legally, as it stands at the moment, if the parent is paying National Insurance.  Where the child lives would appear to be irrelevant.

Will this change IF Britain leaves The EU?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Faithlilly on January 31, 2019, 04:39:43 PM
I don't see a problem legally, as it stands at the moment, if the parent is paying National Insurance.  Where the child lives would appear to be irrelevant.

Will this change IF Britain leaves The EU?

I’m not sure Eleanor but I’m like you. If you pay NI, no matter your country of origin, you are entitled to the benefits that become eligible with that tax. Why anyone would disagree with that has a very skewed view of a fair benefit system.

As to our benefits sysyem perhaps if more nationals concentrated on the appalling treatment of claimants here instead of what others are claiming then we might not have diabetics dying because they don’t have enough to pay their electricity bills and can’t store their insulin.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 31, 2019, 04:43:20 PM
I don't see a problem legally, as it stands at the moment, if the parent is paying National Insurance.  Where the child lives would appear to be irrelevant.

Will this change IF Britain leaves The EU?

I would imagine to legal requrement would revert back to the way it was.  My gran expained to me:

Child benefit was never means tested it was to help families with children when mothers stayed at home (industrial age when this was possible) the first child was allowed the benefit,but none after that. (I think this is 60's 70's). The benefit was paid to the childs parent which whom they lived with.  This changed to all children being eligible as long as they lived with the parent in the uk- this included service personel as being in the UK.

This change if you earn over 50k you have to pay it back. or refuse it.

The first born gets more than other siblings AND only payable if you are 'responsible' for the child/childen. They MUST live in this country with you.

This is gran is the cite lol
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 31, 2019, 04:51:38 PM
I’m not sure Eleanor but I’m like you. If you pay NI, no matter your country of origin, you are entitled to the benefits that become eligible with that tax. Why anyone would disagree with that has a very skewed view of a fair benefit system.

As to our benefits sysyem perhaps if more nationals concentrated on the appalling treatment of claimants here instead of what others are claiming then we might not have diabetics dying because they don’t have enough to pay their electricity bills and can’t store their insulin.

I agree, claimants are treated like beggers. I have it on good authority-It is ATOS who are paid for every perosn they 'get off benefit'.  I love it when they find the cheaters but every one is treated as if they are cheaters which does mean some people just get lost in a system and just don't claim what is rightfully theirs in time of need.

I do believe the system is there for time in need and not to be treated as  a lifestyle choice or a top up for an income (hooky jobs).

The system is  so complicated and fked, even those charged with dispensing it are constantly confused and bewildered. As everything is giong to be automated, it will be even worse with no face to face- no one to take responsibility  just 'how well did we do ' forms, and Thank you for visiting our site
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: jassi on January 31, 2019, 04:52:10 PM
Originally there was no payment for the first child.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Allowances_Act_1945
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 31, 2019, 04:55:49 PM
Originally there was no payment for the first child.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Allowances_Act_1945


OOPS yes, I got that bit wrong sorryyy  gran is bloody old. lol
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 31, 2019, 04:57:49 PM
On that addmission bouncing back on topic.

I would love to have a clearer voice on that video or better still an over view of possibilities of what may have happened which Colin would discuss at length.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on January 31, 2019, 05:44:54 PM
I’m not sure Eleanor but I’m like you. If you pay NI, no matter your country of origin, you are entitled to the benefits that become eligible with that tax. Why anyone would disagree with that has a very skewed view of a fair benefit system.

As to our benefits sysyem perhaps if more nationals concentrated on the appalling treatment of claimants here instead of what others are claiming then we might not have diabetics dying because they don’t have enough to pay their electricity bills and can’t store their insulin.

Which leads me to suspect that The EU isn't half as bad as some claim.  But only after the endless rubbish that I have been subjected to over God knows how long.  And since none of them seem to know anything about what they are talking of.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 31, 2019, 06:39:18 PM
Which leads me to suspect that The EU isn't half as bad as some claim.  But only after the endless rubbish that I have been subjected to over God knows how long.  And since none of them seem to know anything about what they are talking of.

In the absence of any trustworthy statistics, there is NO evidence to suggest that the UK has benefited from being members of the EU as it stands today. I mean fiscally, socially, ecologically. as there are no stats to say we will be worse off.

Just two arguments of 'wooda cooda shooda'.

Therefore,the endless rubbish you claim to have heard would be the growth of EU nationals from poorer states coming here to work or beg or commit crime as they do in their own country- when we have all that here already. Why food banks in a rich country? the food banks became an industry under the guise of 'charity' aka private company who pays no tax.

I love Europe and travel frequently over it and also holiday there. I just do not need another shelf of government which is unaccountable to me. And I do not need to be part of a social engineering ploy by those who have no clue what they are doing.

we have so many 'rulers' and people we must obey it is becoming a nightmare.

we have local,regional,national, international governments we have a queen- a pope 'Jewish and muslim council leaders who likes to poke their noses into how we should live our lives according to their beliefs. Enough already please!
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on January 31, 2019, 07:29:47 PM
In the absence of any trustworthy statistics, there is NO evidence to suggest that the UK has benefited from being members of the EU as it stands today. I mean fiscally, socially, ecologically. as there are no stats to say we will be worse off.

Just two arguments of 'wooda cooda shooda'.

Therefore,the endless rubbish you claim to have heard would be the growth of EU nationals from poorer states coming here to work or beg or commit crime as they do in their own country- when we have all that here already. Why food banks in a rich country? the food banks became an industry under the guise of 'charity' aka private company who pays no tax.

I love Europe and travel frequently over it and also holiday there. I just do not need another shelf of government which is unaccountable to me. And I do not need to be part of a social engineering ploy by those who have no clue what they are doing.

we have so many 'rulers' and people we must obey it is becoming a nightmare.

we have local,regional,national, international governments we have a queen- a pope 'Jewish and muslim council leaders who likes to poke their noses into how we should live our lives according to their beliefs. Enough already please!

The EU has been very good to me.  I can only suppose that I had a minor crisis of conscience for bailing out when I did, and got a bit carried away with Home and Country.  Very odd since France is now my Home and Country, and has been for a very long time.

The people who run The Food Banks here are volunteers and so very ordinary, and genuinely care about what they think they are doing.
As an English person I am a bit of a feather in their cap because I make their efforts multi national, and not just about the poverty stricken French.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 01, 2019, 09:32:33 AM
If you want to differentiate between reality and fiction about the way the Madeleine case 'should' have been handled, please read this very interesting BBC article about how murder incidents in London are investigated.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-46838618

It's one week in the life of a Major Investigative Team.

 8((()*/
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on February 01, 2019, 09:57:33 AM
If you want to differentiate between reality and fiction about the way the Madeleine case 'should' have been handled, please read this very interesting BBC article about how murder incidents in London are investigated.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-46838618

It's one week in the life of a Major Investigative Team.

 8((()*/

From the link.

Quote
Some cases are being prepared for court, some are already in the trial process, others are long-running investigations with police searching for a breakthrough, and a smaller number are recent homicide inquiries that need intensive work.


Bolded bit,this imo is where Grange are at,no dedicated team but a team familiar to the case on call should anything turn up.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on February 01, 2019, 10:56:15 AM
From the link.


Bolded bit,this imo is where Grange are at,no dedicated team but a team familiar to the case on call should anything turn up.

If that is the case ... what do you suppose is the purpose of the Home Office agreeing to the funding of the continued investigation of Madeleine's case?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on February 01, 2019, 11:36:50 AM
If that is the case ... what do you suppose is the purpose of the Home Office agreeing to the funding of the continued investigation of Madeleine's case?

Sutton explains in a video in this thread about funding.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on February 01, 2019, 04:08:58 PM
Sutton explains in a video in this thread about funding.

You opined ... not Sutton
" ... this is where Grange are at, no dedicated team but a team familiar to the case on call should anything turn up."

So what do you think is happening to the money ring fenced by the Home Office for Madeleine McCann's investigation given the opinion you have posted.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 01, 2019, 05:43:14 PM
You opined ... not Sutton
" ... this is where Grange are at, no dedicated team but a team familiar to the case on call should anything turn up."

So what do you think is happening to the money ring fenced by the Home Office for Madeleine McCann's investigation given the opinion you have posted.

It seems to me that the last time funding was mentioned it seemed to be being paid retrospectively. That suggests intermittent costs rather than regular fixed costs.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on February 01, 2019, 06:01:28 PM
It seems to me that the last time funding was mentioned it seemed to be being paid retrospectively. That suggests intermittent costs rather than regular fixed costs.

When did the 31st March 2019 become "retrospective"?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on February 02, 2019, 08:30:18 AM
You opined ... not Sutton
" ... this is where Grange are at, no dedicated team but a team familiar to the case on call should anything turn up."

So what do you think is happening to the money ring fenced by the Home Office for Madeleine McCann's investigation given the opinion you have posted.
Colin Sutton explaining grange is not a dedicated team.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C02gbDLnbjY

Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 02, 2019, 08:46:11 AM
When did the 31st March 2019 become "retrospective"?

Grange seems to have received six monthly payouts. The media have reported these payouts as up-front funding, but have the Home Office or Grange ever confirmed that? It seems it's not quite so clear-cut as the media thinks it is;

Funding for Special Grant applications can be paid retrospectively for operational work already done in the same financial year. It is therefore incorrect to suggest that the MPS would have to discontinue its operational work after 30 September 2018 unless additional funds were provided in advance of this date.
https://homeofficemedia.blog.gov.uk/2018/09/25/home-office-in-the-media/

Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on February 02, 2019, 11:11:53 AM
Grange seems to have received six monthly payouts. The media have reported these payouts as up-front funding, but have the Home Office or Grange ever confirmed that? It seems it's not quite so clear-cut as the media thinks it is;

Funding for Special Grant applications can be paid retrospectively for operational work already done in the same financial year. It is therefore incorrect to suggest that the MPS would have to discontinue its operational work after 30 September 2018 unless additional funds were provided in advance of this date.
https://homeofficemedia.blog.gov.uk/2018/09/25/home-office-in-the-media/

You obviously misunderstood my question which was ... "When did the 31st March 2019 become "retrospective?"

Madeleine's case will be financed by the Home Office until then and if the Scotland Yard need more time and money to follow active lines of enquiry no doubt they will make a case to justify that continued funding ... if they have reached the end of the line as far as the investigation goes they won't.

At the moment Scotland Yard have received an advance payment which covers them until the future date of the 31st.

Thereafter it remains to be seen if there will be a necessity to request continuation of the funding. 

I think you are attempting to push a pretty petty point here unless there is a purpose to it which evades me.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 02, 2019, 01:14:30 PM
You obviously misunderstood my question which was ... "When did the 31st March 2019 become "retrospective?"

Madeleine's case will be financed by the Home Office until then and if the Scotland Yard need more time and money to follow active lines of enquiry no doubt they will make a case to justify that continued funding ... if they have reached the end of the line as far as the investigation goes they won't.

At the moment Scotland Yard have received an advance payment which covers them until the future date of the 31st.

Thereafter it remains to be seen if there will be a necessity to request continuation of the funding. 

I think you are attempting to push a pretty petty point here unless there is a purpose to it which evades me.

Can you guarantee that the six monthly funds are for future expenditure rather than previous expenditure?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on February 02, 2019, 03:35:47 PM
Can you guarantee that the six monthly funds are for future expenditure rather than previous expenditure?

Does it matter?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 03, 2019, 08:26:17 AM
Can you guarantee that the six monthly funds are for future expenditure rather than previous expenditure?
Are you suggesting that the Met would do six months worth of work and then face the possibility of being denied funds to cover that period?  Seems an odd way to go about things.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 03, 2019, 08:46:33 AM
Are you suggesting that the Met would do six months worth of work and then face the possibility of being denied funds to cover that period?  Seems an odd way to go about things.

I'm suggesting just that, but I expect there's little chance of the Home Office refusing to pay documented costs. How exactly do you suggest that Grange can predict how much they are going to spend during a given period of time?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on February 03, 2019, 09:12:03 AM
Does it matter?

To some the search matters a lot,on here that is.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 03, 2019, 11:03:51 AM
I'm suggesting just that, but I expect there's little chance of the Home Office refusing to pay documented costs. How exactly do you suggest that Grange can predict how much they are going to spend during a given period of time?
You obviously don’t understand the process of budgeting and forecasts.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 03, 2019, 03:33:34 PM
You obviously don’t understand the process of budgeting and forecasts.

Describe to me how to forecast what's going to happen in the next six months please.   
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on February 03, 2019, 05:54:06 PM

Salaries and Serveillance Costs.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 03, 2019, 06:29:49 PM
Describe to me how to forecast what's going to happen in the next six months please.
By using common sense, and looking at the previous six months spend, looking at what areas you plan to explore and any trips you know you need to take etx.  It’s really not rocket science you know!
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on February 03, 2019, 07:34:34 PM
Salaries and Serveillance Costs.

Surveillance? where? when? in Britain?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on February 03, 2019, 07:37:37 PM
Surveillance? where? when? in Britain?

Sorry.  I can't say.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on February 03, 2019, 07:56:45 PM
Sorry.  I can't say.

 In this imagined scenario, Madeleine is fast approaching 16,its likely where ever she is to have been brought up in a vastly different culture if abroad to Britain, just suppose she's well looked after, educated, fast approaching higher education no doubt having learnt the mother tongue of where this imagined scenario happens to be, do you think its fair on the girl and her parents for OG just to observe and then presumably take her away from it.Do you think its likely that where ever your imagined surveillance is being conducted its with the full authority of the local forces, if not then its illegal.
The FOI regarding OG only showed 5 return flights to Portugal in the year 2017/18 with a breakdown of costs of accommodation of £811,obviously not staying long
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: jassi on February 03, 2019, 08:05:29 PM
In this imagined scenario, Madeleine is fast approaching 16,its likely where ever she is to have been brought up in a vastly different culture if abroad to Britain, just suppose she's well looked after, educated, fast approaching higher education no doubt having learnt the mother tongue of where this imagined scenario happens to be, do you think its fair on the girl and her parents for OG just to observe and then presumably take her away from it.Do you think its likely that where ever your imagined surveillance is being conducted its with the full authority of the local forces, if not then its illegal.
The FOI regarding OG only showed 5 return flights to Portugal in the year 2017/18 with a breakdown of costs of accommodation of £811,obviously not staying long

Taking this a little further, at the point that she reaches the age of majority, UK police will have no authority to intervene in her life at all.
They need to get a move on.
IMO
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on February 03, 2019, 08:26:48 PM
In this imagined scenario, Madeleine is fast approaching 16,its likely where ever she is to have been brought up in a vastly different culture if abroad to Britain, just suppose she's well looked after, educated, fast approaching higher education no doubt having learnt the mother tongue of where this imagined scenario happens to be, do you think its fair on the girl and her parents for OG just to observe and then presumably take her away from it.Do you think its likely that where ever your imagined surveillance is being conducted its with the full authority of the local forces, if not then its illegal.
The FOI regarding OG only showed 5 return flights to Portugal in the year 2017/18 with a breakdown of costs of accommodation of £811,obviously not staying long

So every Private Detective who ver watched anyone has to get permission from the local Police Force?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on February 03, 2019, 08:51:31 PM
Taking this a little further, at the point that she reaches the age of majority, UK police will have no authority to intervene in her life at all.
They need to get a move on.
IMO

I seem to remember a senior police officer saying that no matter how Madeleine left the holiday apartment she had been abducted.

Don't you think in the scenario you repeat that the people who have allegedly given her the ideal childhood and adolescence described might have some pertinent answers to give to questions asked about that?

A three year old child is not a commodity who can be appropriated planned or on a whim and spirited away from all she knows and loves by anyone as if she were a puppy dog.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: jassi on February 03, 2019, 09:17:12 PM
I seem to remember a senior police officer saying that no matter how Madeleine left the holiday apartment she had been abducted.

Don't you think in the scenario you repeat that the people who have allegedly given her the ideal childhood and adolescence described might have some pertinent answers to give to questions asked about that?

A three year old child is not a commodity who can be appropriated planned or on a whim and spirited away from all she knows and loves by anyone as if she were a puppy dog.

They may or may not have, but not necessarily Madeleine.
These hypothetical people may well be beyond the reach of OG in any case.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on February 03, 2019, 11:13:33 PM
They may or may not have, but not necessarily Madeleine.
These hypothetical people may well be beyond the reach of OG in any case.

The ongoing police investigation into Madeleine's case is not hypothetical. 
Do you think that the men and women of Scotland Yard working on it over the years have not been equally as proficient at their jobs as Sutton and his team were at theirs?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Angelo222 on February 03, 2019, 11:52:56 PM
The ongoing police investigation into Madeleine's case is not hypothetical. 
Do you think that the men and women of Scotland Yard working on it over the years have not been equally as proficient at their jobs as Sutton and his team were at theirs?

I tend to judge by results and in this particular case those have been abysmal.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 04, 2019, 12:07:25 AM
The ongoing police investigation into Madeleine's case is not hypothetical. 
Do you think that the men and women of Scotland Yard working on it over the years have not been equally as proficient at their jobs as Sutton and his team were at theirs?

A proficient policeman raised concerns about Peter Sutcliffe but was ignored by his superiors.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on February 04, 2019, 01:38:45 AM
I tend to judge by results and in this particular case those have been abysmal.

Only the police know where they are in Madeleine's case and I think that is exactly as it should be.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on February 04, 2019, 02:32:24 AM
A proficient policeman raised concerns about Peter Sutcliffe but was ignored by his superiors.

If memory serves me well the senior investigating officer had a particular obsession with a recorded message which may have sent the investigation off track rather as in a similar fashion the senior investigating officer in Madeleine's case ploughed his furrow into a muddy ditch.

Snip
  ... the other was a hoarding promoting the ‘Help Us Stop The Ripper from Killing Again’ campaign.

That campaign invited the public to look at the killer’s handwriting and listen to his voice.

But it was not the killer’s handwriting or the killer’s voice - but that of a hoaxer. The black ink scrawl and Wearside accent belonged to John Samuel Humble, who pretended to be the Ripper in three letters and an audio tape sent to Assistant Chief Constable George Oldfield.
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/yorkshire-ripper-peter-sutcliffe-manchester-14385884

I do not recall hearing anything at all about a 'proficient policeman' raising particular concerns about Sutcliffe although I did recall the consecutively numbered new five pound note being a retrospective 'missed chance'.
I do know that the archaic filing system in force at the time just was not equipped to cross reference effectively the vast amount of material being entered.

Please provide a cite to substantiate your claim.

Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on February 04, 2019, 03:04:24 AM
Detective who warned Peter Sutcliffe was Yorkshire Ripper reveals "thunderbolt" moment when murderer was finally arrested
Detective Andy Laptew was a junior officer on the inquiry who interviewed Sutcliffe and felt 'alarm bells ringing', but his concerns were ignored and three more women were murdered

BySteve MyallDeputy Features Editor
00:01, 21 AUG 2016

A detective who questioned Peter Sutcliffe during the hunt for the Yorkshire Ripper but whose concerns about him were ignored has spoken of how the "bottom fell out of his world" when he was finally caught.

Andy Laptew was a junior detective who interviewed Peter Sutcliffe and flagged him up as a serious suspect, but his warnings fell on deaf ears.

He spotted a string of similarities between Sutcliffe and the suspect identified by a victim who survived an attack.

Yet when he spoke to a senior officer he was not listened to as the inquiry was focused the killer being from the North East due to a tape recording sent from a man claiming to be the killer who has accent from that area.

The tape later turned out to be a hoax and contributed to delays in the investigation.

Sutcliffe murdered 13 women in the 1970s and 1980s.

A review after Sutcliffe was caught also criticised a failure to properly file and collect hundreds of thousands of reports about the murders in the 1970s.
(http://i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article8665606.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/Photo-fit-of-the-Yorkshire-Ripper.jpg)
Photo-fit of the Yorkshire Ripper looked strikingly similar to Peter Sutcliffe (Image: Youtube/idj4)
Speaking in a BBC Radio Four documentary Mr Laptew said he was concerned about Sutcliffe when he met him and when he later found out he was right it felt like a "thunderbolt" through his heart.

He said he was ostracised by officers he had thought were friends after reports criticised the force and painted him as a lone voice.

Speaking about his meeting with Sutcliffe, he said: "I wasn't happy with Peter Sutcliffe, there were a lot of alarm bells ringing.

“The reason we actually went to see Sutcliffe was because his vehicle had been sighted in three separate red light areas.

“He had a striking resemblance to the photo-fit of the woman who was attacked in Buslingthorpe Lane, in Leeds. He had a gap in his teeth which again was indicative of the the attacker of two of the women who were killed.

“He was in the suspect occupation group – in that he was a heavy goods vehicle driver.

“I said to my colleague 'why don't we bring him in?” and he said 'no we have been told specifically do not bring anybody in'.

“In fact I'll tell you what happened I took it direct to Dick Holland (Superintendant in charge of the enquiry), a man who I had put on a pedestal and hero worshiped

“Has he got a Geordie accent he said. 'No he's local' I said, 'he's from Bradford, he's a dead ringer for the photo-fit.'

"Then he said 'If anybody mentions the photo-fits to me again they will be doing traffic for the rest of their service.

"I could have crawled under the crack in the door."

Asked what he felt when Sutcliffe was finally caught and he discovered his suspicious had been right, he said: "How do you describe a thunderbolt to your heart, the bottom had fallen out of my world.

"I got in my car and dashed up to the police station, opened my locker door and looked through my notebooks and there was his name 'Peter William Sutcliffe - not satisfied with this man - full report submitted'.

"I didn't know what to do, had I done right, had I done wrong, was there any more I could have done and you tend to blame yourself because three women had died since I submitted that report.

"I had suggested he be looked at by a senior officer with a more intimate knowledge of the case."

After Sutcliffe's arrest police realised they had questioned him NINE times but the reports had not been linked.

Mr Laptew said: "The next thing there were three inch headlines saying I was the lone voice crying out in the wilderness against West Yorkshire Police and I was a pariah when all I had ever done was display loyalty.

"People I thought were friends ignored me, senior officers made life a little difficulty for me and instead of speaking to me they would grunt at me.

"I got really really upset by all this, it's made me anti authority."

Sutcliffe was caught when he was stopped by police in a car with stolen number plates with a prostitute and a hammer and knife was found at the scene.

He is still in prison serving 20 life sentences.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/detective-who-warned-peter-sutcliffe-8665987
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 04, 2019, 08:31:16 AM
Knowing that the police don't always get it right I think it's perfectly acceptable to wonder about Op Grange. There's nothing to suggest they have progressed or that they will do so. In my opinion those pinning their hopes on OG clutching at straws.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 04, 2019, 08:48:01 AM
The ongoing police investigation into Madeleine's case is not hypothetical. 
Do you think that the men and women of Scotland Yard working on it over the years have not been equally as proficient at their jobs as Sutton and his team were at theirs?
There is no evidence to support the idea that OG has visited Luz, the June 2014 triple dig aside.

When the Stephen Lawrence case was re-investigated as a cold case, the SIO felt correct procedure was to return to examine the event scene personally, and to examine it in considerable detail, to gain an understanding of the crime.

This is another example of why OG appears to be unfit for purpose.

A point that interested me was sufficient data had been loaded into HOLMES incorrectly that the SIO decided to junk it all and start again.  I don't know what OG have or have not done re HOLMES, but this makes 2 major investigations where the SIO has been critical of the system.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on February 04, 2019, 10:02:48 AM
Taking this a little further, at the point that she reaches the age of majority, UK police will have no authority to intervene in her life at all.
They need to get a move on.
IMO

If she's being held in a hellish lair its even crueller just to observe.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on February 04, 2019, 10:03:43 AM
So every Private Detective who ver watched anyone has to get permission from the local Police Force?


Are you suggesting the HO is funding these which is what we are on about,funding that is.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on February 04, 2019, 10:06:25 AM
There is no evidence to support the idea that OG has visited Luz, the June 2014 triple dig aside.

When the Stephen Lawrence case was re-investigated as a cold case, the SIO felt correct procedure was to return to examine the event scene personally, and to examine it in considerable detail, to gain an understanding of the crime.

This is another example of why OG appears to be unfit for purpose.

A point that interested me was sufficient data had been loaded into HOLMES incorrectly that the SIO decided to junk it all and start again.  I don't know what OG have or have not done re HOLMES, but this makes 2 major investigations where the SIO has been critical of the system.


There is an interesting article in the mail which brings into stark reality just what OG hope to achieve from afar.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6236101/Britains-15-unsolved-murders-baffling-police-today.html

"From TV presenter Jill Dando to estate agent Suzy Lamplugh: Britain's top 15 unsolved murders which are still baffling police"

Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on February 04, 2019, 10:13:20 AM

Are you suggesting the HO is funding these which is what we are on about,funding that is.

Horses for Courses.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on February 04, 2019, 10:53:01 AM
There is no evidence to support the idea that OG has visited Luz, the June 2014 triple dig aside.

When the Stephen Lawrence case was re-investigated as a cold case, the SIO felt correct procedure was to return to examine the event scene personally, and to examine it in considerable detail, to gain an understanding of the crime.

This is another example of why OG appears to be unfit for purpose.

A point that interested me was sufficient data had been loaded into HOLMES incorrectly that the SIO decided to junk it all and start again.  I don't know what OG have or have not done re HOLMES, but this makes 2 major investigations where the SIO has been critical of the system.

There was at one time I believe no recognition that the Porto Judicial Police had reviewed Madeleine's case and had carried out a reconstruction in Luz as part of their review so discrete were they about it.
What was to prevent a Scotland Yard team renting holiday accommodation back in the review days and being as discrete about it as were the PJ?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on February 04, 2019, 11:00:50 AM

Are you suggesting the HO is funding these which is what we are on about,funding that is.

Actually I think we are supposed to be discussing the similarities between Sutton's investigation as outlined in his documentary of his book and Madeleine's case.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on February 04, 2019, 11:07:23 AM
Actually I think we are supposed to be discussing the similarities between Sutton's investigation as outlined in his documentary of his book and Madeleine's case.

Best ask an editor to sort it out then,we'll be back to about one page.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 04, 2019, 11:10:34 AM
Actually I think we are supposed to be discussing the similarities between Sutton's investigation as outlined in his documentary of his book and Madeleine's case.

I thought we were comparing the two;
Sutton's investigation was successful. Operation Grange's investigation is unsuccessful so far.
Sutton had a free hand, Operation Grange was limited by it's remit.
 
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on February 04, 2019, 11:43:19 AM
I thought we were comparing the two;
Sutton's investigation was successful. Operation Grange's investigation is unsuccessful so far.
Sutton had a free hand, Operation Grange was limited by it's remit.

There was a stage in Sutton's investigation where exactly the same accusation of lack of success could be levelled.

Sutton's investigation did not allow him a free hand insofar that he was bound by restrictions of having to look for and follow whatever evidence might have been available to him.
His remit was to do that within the confines of the law and by following procedure to be able to present a case against a suspect to allow for arrest and subsequent trial.

It is utterly risible to imagine that the remit of the investigation into Madeleine's case limits police procedure to allow exactly the same freedom to follow the evidence as enjoyed by Sutton.

That is what the police do ... and it is what Helen Monteiro's team did both at review stage and into the reopening of Madeleine's case.

I doubt very much that Sutton embarked on his successful investigation without casting an eye over all the evidence already gathered and deciding what to keep to work on and what to set aside.  I think it is ludicrous to imagine that wasn't done in Madeleine's case and there seemed to be plenty of leads which just had not been followed through for them to be going on with.
So what evidence is it you think the PJ investigation of the parents and Robert Murat missed and what is it that that you think Monteiro's review team missed that directed them open a case which enabled them to investigate a stranger abduction?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 04, 2019, 12:09:29 PM
There was a stage in Sutton's investigation where exactly the same accusation of lack of success could be levelled.

Sutton's investigation did not allow him a free hand insofar that he was bound by restrictions of having to look for and follow whatever evidence might have been available to him.
His remit was to do that within the confines of the law and by following procedure to be able to present a case against a suspect to allow for arrest and subsequent trial.

It is utterly risible to imagine that the remit of the investigation into Madeleine's case limits police procedure to allow exactly the same freedom to follow the evidence as enjoyed by Sutton.

That is what the police do ... and it is what Helen Monteiro's team did both at review stage and into the reopening of Madeleine's case.

I doubt very much that Sutton embarked on his successful investigation without casting an eye over all the evidence already gathered and deciding what to keep to work on and what to set aside.  I think it is ludicrous to imagine that wasn't done in Madeleine's case and there seemed to be plenty of leads which just had not been followed through for them to be going on with.
So what evidence is it you think the PJ investigation of the parents and Robert Murat missed and what is it that that you think Monteiro's review team missed that directed them open a case which enabled them to investigate a stranger abduction?

Ludicrous to imagine?  Risible?  Monteiro?

Surely you should have whacked a ginormous IMO around your speculation?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 04, 2019, 01:03:25 PM
There was a stage in Sutton's investigation where exactly the same accusation of lack of success could be levelled.

Sutton's investigation did not allow him a free hand insofar that he was bound by restrictions of having to look for and follow whatever evidence might have been available to him.
His remit was to do that within the confines of the law and by following procedure to be able to present a case against a suspect to allow for arrest and subsequent trial.

It is utterly risible to imagine that the remit of the investigation into Madeleine's case limits police procedure to allow exactly the same freedom to follow the evidence as enjoyed by Sutton.

That is what the police do ... and it is what Helen Monteiro's team did both at review stage and into the reopening of Madeleine's case.

I doubt very much that Sutton embarked on his successful investigation without casting an eye over all the evidence already gathered and deciding what to keep to work on and what to set aside.  I think it is ludicrous to imagine that wasn't done in Madeleine's case and there seemed to be plenty of leads which just had not been followed through for them to be going on with.
So what evidence is it you think the PJ investigation of the parents and Robert Murat missed and what is it that that you think Monteiro's review team missed that directed them open a case which enabled them to investigate a stranger abduction?

On what basis do you state that the PJ were investigating stranger abduction. AFAIK that has never been said by anyone in authority. Please provide your source.

 "Portugal's Attorney General has determined the reopening of the inquiry relating to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann following a request from the Policia Judiciaria."

A spokesman for the Attorney General's office said she was unable to comment on the new lines of inquiry.

She said: "I do not know what they are and how significant they are and even if I did I couldn't comment because of the secrecy order.

"However it is clear from the statement we have released that the decision to reopen the Madeleine McCann investigation has been based on new elements that indicate it's a justifiable action."
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/438868/Portuguese-police-reopen-Madeleine-McCann-investigation
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on February 04, 2019, 01:25:55 PM
Ludicrous to imagine?  Risible?  Monteiro?

Surely you should have whacked a ginormous IMO around your speculation?

What speculation?

Monteiro had sent a team to Luz prior to the investigation being reopened in 2013 ... or that police work involves following evidence?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on February 04, 2019, 02:02:40 PM
On what basis do you state that the PJ were investigating stranger abduction. AFAIK that has never been said by anyone in authority. Please provide your source.

 "Portugal's Attorney General has determined the reopening of the inquiry relating to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann following a request from the Policia Judiciaria."

A spokesman for the Attorney General's office said she was unable to comment on the new lines of inquiry.

She said: "I do not know what they are and how significant they are and even if I did I couldn't comment because of the secrecy order.

"However it is clear from the statement we have released that the decision to reopen the Madeleine McCann investigation has been based on new elements that indicate it's a justifiable action."
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/438868/Portuguese-police-reopen-Madeleine-McCann-investigation

Groundhog day yet again?

Seriously though ... do you ever bother to read any of the links I post?  Here is one I did earlier ... 2015 to be exact
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3699.msg253733#msg253733

Here is one tying in with that ...

Snip
A Polícia Judiciária (PJ) esclareceu nesta quarta-feira que a ligação entre o desaparecimento de Madeleine McCann e um homem que abusou sexualmente de cinco meninas no Algarve, entre 2004 e 2006, corresponde à linha de investigação descoberta pela equipa daquela polícia, criada no Porto, em Março de 2011, para reanalisar o caso, e que fundamentou o pedido de reabertura do inquérito do caso Maddie, em Outubro do ano passado.

The Judiciary Police said Wednesday that the link between the disappearance of Madeleine McCann and a man who sexually abused five girls in the Algarve between 2004 and 2006 corresponds to the line of investigation discovered by the police team, Porto in March 2011 to re-examine the case, which provided the basis for the request to reopen the Maddie case in October last year.

https://www.publico.pt/2014/03/19/sociedade/noticia/pj-reabriu-inquerito-maddie-ha-meses-por-causa-de-suspeito-procurado-agora-pelos-ingleses-1628961


Interestingly enough is that Colin Sutton concurs with the present investigators that Madeleine's abduction may not have been outwith the bounds of possibility.

Snip
A former Scotland Yard police officer also suggested that Maddie was kidnapped and trafficked to Mauritania in West Africa before being sold to a wealthy Middle Eastern family.

Former detective Colin Sutton told the Mirror: "Mauritania is certainly a possibility that needs to be explored."

"If anyone wanted to take the three-year-old girl to Africa, it would be the most obvious route to take."

"The infrastructure and the contacts to carry out the contraband of people already exist".

https://www.gnoticia.com.br/detetive-do-caso-madeleine-acusa-governo-de-acobertar-o-caso/


Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 04, 2019, 06:49:21 PM
Groundhog day yet again?

Seriously though ... do you ever bother to read any of the links I post?  Here is one I did earlier ... 2015 to be exact
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3699.msg253733#msg253733

Here is one tying in with that ...

Snip
A Polícia Judiciária (PJ) esclareceu nesta quarta-feira que a ligação entre o desaparecimento de Madeleine McCann e um homem que abusou sexualmente de cinco meninas no Algarve, entre 2004 e 2006, corresponde à linha de investigação descoberta pela equipa daquela polícia, criada no Porto, em Março de 2011, para reanalisar o caso, e que fundamentou o pedido de reabertura do inquérito do caso Maddie, em Outubro do ano passado.

The Judiciary Police said Wednesday that the link between the disappearance of Madeleine McCann and a man who sexually abused five girls in the Algarve between 2004 and 2006 corresponds to the line of investigation discovered by the police team, Porto in March 2011 to re-examine the case, which provided the basis for the request to reopen the Maddie case in October last year.

https://www.publico.pt/2014/03/19/sociedade/noticia/pj-reabriu-inquerito-maddie-ha-meses-por-causa-de-suspeito-procurado-agora-pelos-ingleses-1628961


Interestingly enough is that Colin Sutton concurs with the present investigators that Madeleine's abduction may not have been outwith the bounds of possibility.

Snip
A former Scotland Yard police officer also suggested that Maddie was kidnapped and trafficked to Mauritania in West Africa before being sold to a wealthy Middle Eastern family.

Former detective Colin Sutton told the Mirror: "Mauritania is certainly a possibility that needs to be explored."

"If anyone wanted to take the three-year-old girl to Africa, it would be the most obvious route to take."

"The infrastructure and the contacts to carry out the contraband of people already exist".

https://www.gnoticia.com.br/detetive-do-caso-madeleine-acusa-governo-de-acobertar-o-caso/

I'm sorry but I see nothing saying that the PJ were investigating stranger abduction.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 04, 2019, 06:52:05 PM
I'm sorry but I see nothing saying that the PJ were investigating stranger abduction.
You need to put your specs on then.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 04, 2019, 08:13:48 PM
You need to put your specs on then.

If you can see it perhaps you would be so kinf as to tell me where it says the PJ were investigating stranger abduction?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 05, 2019, 12:15:53 AM
If you can see it perhaps you would be so kinf as to tell me where it says the PJ were investigating stranger abduction?
I don’t know how to be kinf but if you look again you will see that the Portuguese police were investigating a possible link between a sex attacker and Madeleine’s disappearance and it was this that formed the basis of the request to reopen the case.  If that is not investigating stranger abduction what would you call it?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 05, 2019, 07:41:50 AM
I don’t know how to be kinf but if you look again you will see that the Portuguese police were investigating a possible link between a sex attacker and Madeleine’s disappearance and it was this that formed the basis of the request to reopen the case.  If that is not investigating stranger abduction what would you call it?

That, to me, is journalistic speculation, not a fact, but thank you for interpreting it for me.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 05, 2019, 08:29:36 AM
That, to me, is journalistic speculation, not a fact, but thank you for interpreting it for me.
Which bit isn’t a fact?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 05, 2019, 08:56:11 AM
Which bit isn’t a fact?

That the PJ were investigating stranger abduction. I'm not even convinced that they were looking at those reports about British children, except perhaps at the request of OG.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 05, 2019, 06:27:04 PM
That the PJ were investigating stranger abduction. I'm not even convinced that they were looking at those reports about British children, except perhaps at the request of OG.
So the paper is lying in your opinion when it writes this:

“The Judiciary Police said Wednesday that the link between the disappearance of Madeleine McCann and a man who sexually abused five girls in the Algarve between 2004 and 2006 corresponds to the line of investigation discovered by the police team, Porto in March 2011 to re-examine the case, which provided the basis for the request to reopen the Maddie case in October last year”.


Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 05, 2019, 07:22:30 PM
So the paper is lying in your opinion when it writes this:

“The Judiciary Police said Wednesday that the link between the disappearance of Madeleine McCann and a man who sexually abused five girls in the Algarve between 2004 and 2006 corresponds to the line of investigation discovered by the police team, Porto in March 2011 to re-examine the case, which provided the basis for the request to reopen the Maddie case in October last year”.

No-one knows what the Porto team did, but their remit was to re-examine the files. There was nothing in the files about these children.

 the National Director of the Judiciary Police, in March 2011, assigned to a team of investigators from the North Directorate a task to re-examine the whole wide range of information contained in the inquest
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 05, 2019, 07:49:24 PM
No-one knows what the Porto team did, but their remit was to re-examine the files. There was nothing in the files about these children.

 the National Director of the Judiciary Police, in March 2011, assigned to a team of investigators from the North Directorate a task to re-examine the whole wide range of information contained in the inquest
I’ll ask the question again: when the Portugese paper states that the JP were investigating a link between the sex attacks on the Algarve and Madeleine’s disappearance do you think they completely made it up?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 06, 2019, 08:04:19 AM
I’ll ask the question again: when the Portugese paper states that the JP were investigating a link between the sex attacks on the Algarve and Madeleine’s disappearance do you think they completely made it up?

This story arose because OG turned it's attention to this line of enquiry. The UK media took the opportunity to criticise the PJ (again) for not telling OG about it earlier;

Wednesday 19th March 2014

Redwood appeals for information about the man who  allegedly attacked children in the Algarve. A burgandly top was mentioned. It was said that there were 12 incidents, nine of which were reported to the Portuguese police. UK news said that the Portuguese police didn't pass on the information about these crimes to OG; they only found out about it when three families responded to an appeal for information in 2013.
 https://www.channel4.com/news/madeleine-mccann-police-appeal-sex-attacker

Well that's wrong for a start. Kate McCann wrote  about it in her book in 2011. She said she found the information in some files. However;

The Portuguese have been accused once more of incompetence, so anything they say is going to be defensive. Amongst other things, they said that OG was told about it in October 2013 by the PJ, but OG decloned to comment;

Contacted by PÚBLICO, one of the spokesmen of the Metropolitan Police of London declined to comment on the clarifications made by the PJ, refusing to confirm or deny that British investigators were informed months ago by the Portuguese about this line of investigation. It remains to be explained why Scotland Yard decided to announce on Wednesday that it is looking for a sex offender.
https://www.publico.pt/2014/03/19/sociedade/noticia/pj-reabriu-inquerito-maddie-ha-meses-por-causa-de-suspeito-procurado-agora-pelos-ingleses-1628961

In my opinion it's by no means clear where the information came from or who knew about it and when. There were rumours but nothing concrete was said by any identifiable source.



Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 06, 2019, 08:40:44 AM
This story arose because OG turned it's attention to this line of enquiry. The UK media took the opportunity to criticise the PJ (again) for not telling OG about it earlier;

Wednesday 19th March 2014

Redwood appeals for information about the man who  allegedly attacked children in the Algarve. A burgandly top was mentioned. It was said that there were 12 incidents, nine of which were reported to the Portuguese police. UK news said that the Portuguese police didn't pass on the information about these crimes to OG; they only found out about it when three families responded to an appeal for information in 2013.
 https://www.channel4.com/news/madeleine-mccann-police-appeal-sex-attacker

Well that's wrong for a start. Kate McCann wrote  about it in her book in 2011. She said she found the information in some files. However;

The Portuguese have been accused once more of incompetence, so anything they say is going to be defensive. Amongst other things, they said that OG was told about it in October 2013 by the PJ, but OG decloned to comment;

Contacted by PÚBLICO, one of the spokesmen of the Metropolitan Police of London declined to comment on the clarifications made by the PJ, refusing to confirm or deny that British investigators were informed months ago by the Portuguese about this line of investigation. It remains to be explained why Scotland Yard decided to announce on Wednesday that it is looking for a sex offender.
https://www.publico.pt/2014/03/19/sociedade/noticia/pj-reabriu-inquerito-maddie-ha-meses-por-causa-de-suspeito-procurado-agora-pelos-ingleses-1628961

In my opinion it's by no means clear where the information came from or who knew about it and when. There were rumours but nothing concrete was said by any identifiable source.
So, for the third time, in your opinion did the Portuguese paper make it all up regarding what it says the PJ said “on Wednesday”?  Furthermore do you concede that it may NOT be making it up and that the PJ were indeed investigating possible links to sex attacks on the Algarve, which in turn indicates investigating stranger abduction as Brietta said earlier?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 06, 2019, 08:54:26 AM
So, for the third time, in your opinion did the Portuguese paper make it all up regarding what it says the PJ said “on Wednesday”?  Furthermore do you concede that it may NOT be making it up and that the PJ were indeed investigating possible links to sex attacks on the Algarve, which in turn indicates investigating stranger abduction as Brietta said earlier?

I don't know what was said to the press or who said it. Therefore I don't know whether it's true or not.  I do know that Pedro do Carmo said in 2017 that the PJ didn't know what crime was committed, so whatever lines of inquiry they have followed they have reached no conclusions.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 06, 2019, 09:02:23 AM
I don't know what was said to the press or who said it. Therefore I don't know whether it's true or not.  I do know that Pedro do Carmo said in 2017 that the PJ didn't know what crime was committed, so whatever lines of inquiry they have followed they have reached no conclusions.
Do you therefore concede it is entirely possible if not likely that the PJ were investigating child sex attacks on the Algarve to explore possible links to the case?  Or do you think its far fetched?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 06, 2019, 09:34:32 AM
From the same Portuguese article as linked to by Brietta

“The PJ source said that the similarities between the five cases were identified by the PJ do Porto team and that although there were formal complaints, the Portuguese authorities never found the perpetrator of sexual abuse, which may have been linked to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, in May 2007, of an apartment rented by his family in a Algarve resort in Praia da Luz.
Contacted by PÚBLICO, one of the spokesmen of the Metropolitan Police of London declined to comment on the clarifications made by the PJ, refusing to confirm or deny that British investigators were informed months ago by the Portuguese about this line of investigation. It remains to be explained why Scotland Yard decided to announce on Wednesday that it is looking for a sex offender.”

That’s a lot for a newspaper to make up!
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 06, 2019, 09:52:20 AM
Do you therefore concede it is entirely possible if not likely that the PJ were investigating child sex attacks on the Algarve to explore possible links to the case?  Or do you think its far fetched?

I asked fr a cite showing that the PJ investigated stranger abduction. I didn't get one. I got newspaper speculation from which people deduced that the PJ investigated stranger abduction.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 06, 2019, 10:11:28 AM
I asked fr a cite showing that the PJ investigated stranger abduction. I didn't get one. I got newspaper speculation from which people deduced that the PJ investigated stranger abduction.
The newspaper does not speculate, it states as fact, or it is lying, which is it?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 06, 2019, 10:20:13 AM
If the PJ didn’t investigate these Algarve sex attacks as stated in the paper and as a result of Operation Grange’s own investigation one would have to ask why the bloody hell didn’t they?!  Are they really that lazy and incompetent?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 06, 2019, 11:12:56 AM
The newspaper does not speculate, it states as fact, or it is lying, which is it?

Vague and unattributed quotes are not facts. A year earlier Monteiro was being quoted as the reason the case was reopened;

Correio da Manha claimed: ‘Police suspicions about the former Ocean Club employee arose during the review of the case carried out by a PJ team from Porto.

‘This was the strongest new lead presented to state prosecutors which led to the investigation being reopened.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2484011/Main-Madeleine-McCann-suspect-heroin-addict-used-rob-holiday-apartments.html
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 06, 2019, 11:16:28 AM
Vague and unattributed quotes are not facts. A year earlier Monteiro was being quoted as the reason the case was reopened;

Correio da Manha claimed: ‘Police suspicions about the former Ocean Club employee arose during the review of the case carried out by a PJ team from Porto.

‘This was the strongest new lead presented to state prosecutors which led to the investigation being reopened.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2484011/Main-Madeleine-McCann-suspect-heroin-addict-used-rob-holiday-apartments.html
You spectacularly miss the point.  YOU are the one doing the speculating, not the paper.  YOU are speculating that they are not reporting factually.  Either you are right and the paper completely fabricated the story about the PJ's stated claims on "Wednesday" and the PJ have NEVER investigated any link between Algarve sex attacks and the MM case (if not, why not, laziness, incompetence, cover up??)  or you are WRONG, and they have done, as correctly reported in the paper.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 06, 2019, 12:22:25 PM
You spectacularly miss the point.  YOU are the one doing the speculating, not the paper.  YOU are speculating that they are not reporting factually.  Either you are right and the paper completely fabricated the story about the PJ's stated claims on "Wednesday" and the PJ have NEVER investigated any link between Algarve sex attacks and the MM case (if not, why not, laziness, incompetence, cover up??)  or you are WRONG, and they have done, as correctly reported in the paper.

There's no way to check if the newspaper was telling ther truth. You have chosen to believe what they said, I haven't. In my opinion you should remember what Rowley said about newspaper reports.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 06, 2019, 12:42:45 PM
There's no way to check if the newspaper was telling ther truth. You have chosen to believe what they said, I haven't. In my opinion you should remember what Rowley said about newspaper reports.
Right, at last.  You believe that the paper is probably lying and that the PJ couldn't be bothered or chose not to investigate sex attacks on the Algarve with a view to a possible link to the MM case.  Fine.  That is your belief.  It makes little sense when you think about it, but if that's what you want to believe then that is your prerogative.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 06, 2019, 02:24:07 PM
Right, at last.  You believe that the paper is probably lying and that the PJ couldn't be bothered or chose not to investigate sex attacks on the Algarve with a view to a possible link to the MM case.  Fine.  That is your belief.  It makes little sense when you think about it, but if that's what you want to believe then that is your prerogative.

You, on the other hand, have chosen to believe the nespaper despite the fact that they were unable to verify their story by offering any details of who told them. In fact the newspaper has printed many stories about the McCann case, and very few of them were correct.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 06, 2019, 02:30:35 PM
You, on the other hand, have chosen to believe the nespaper despite the fact that they were unable to verify their story by offering any details of who told them. In fact the newspaper has printed many stories about the McCann case, and very few of them were correct.
Oh really?  That's rubbish IMO.  Here's a link to the first 20 Madeleine McCann articles on the Publico search facility.  According to you only very few will be correct, therefore the majority will be false according to you - kindly point to the false stories amongst these 20 thanks
https://www.publico.pt/pesquisa?query=madeleine+mccann
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 06, 2019, 02:35:01 PM
We're back to the old "if the police source isn't named by the paper we don't have to believe it" excuse.  Pathetic game playing IMO. 
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 06, 2019, 02:44:27 PM
From the Guardian:

Scotland Yard also revealed it was looking at 38 "people of interest" in relation to her disappearance, having dismissed 22 others from that category. They were also trying to find out more about 530 known sex offenders – 59 regarded as of high interest – across Europe.


However Portugal's Polícia Judiciária (PJ) claimed that Wednesday's press conference simply confirmed a primary line of investigation which has been investigated by Portuguese police since last October.
Suggestions that the information released by the Met had initially been discounted by Portuguese detectives were denied by a source at the PJ's headquarters in Lisbon.

He said that evidence of a string of crimes had been the driving force behind Portuguese officials re-opening the case. "It is all there in the police case files," said the source. "You will see when it is made public."
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 06, 2019, 02:59:33 PM
Portugal police re-opened case in October due to "new" evidence presented by Scotland Yard The Portugal News

BY BRENDAN DE BEER · 20-03-2014 14:23:00

Portugal's Polícia Judiciária (PJ) has told The Portugal News that Wednesday's press conference held by the Metropolitan Police simply confirmed a primary line of investigation which has already been extensively probed by Portuguese police.
DCI Andy Redwood

When questioned on Wednesday evening by The Portugal News about suggestions that the information released by the Met had initially been discounted by Portuguese detectives, a source within Portugal's Polícia Judíciaria (PJ) headquarters in Lisbon said that this information was incorrect.

He said that evidence of a string of crimes, including a sexual predator's activities at coastal resorts popular with holidaymakers in the western Algarve, had in fact been the main driving force behind Portuguese officials deciding to re-open the case.


"Looking into the activities of this particular individual was our primary line of investigation", our police source said, adding: "It is all there in the police case files. You will see when it is made public."

"We met with Andy Redwood and Madeleine’s parents last October to inform them of the reasons behind the decision of Portuguese authorities to re-open the case", the police source stressed.

He added that revelations yesterday at the New Scotland Yard do not contain any further information other than what had already been passed on to the Metropolitan Police in the aforementioned meeting.


The source explained the investigation is still ongoing and is steadily proceeding in Portugal, "but with the discretion that has characterised it from the beginning."

To date, three international letters of request have been sent to the Attorney-General's office, but none have contained an official request to accompany field work or questioning of persons of interest by Portuguese detectives.

"Detectives from the Metropolitan Police Service have expressed the intention to come over to Portugal and assist in any inquires that might take place.  But this intention has not yet been made official", the source said.

Questioned over what he thought of British police modus operandi or their public venting of frustration yesterday over Portuguese police seemingly dragging their heels, he replied: "All I can say is that the British have an excellent police force."

The Attorney-General's office in Lisbon, which initially ordered the case to be re-opened last Autumn, declined to comment when questioned on Wednesday by The Portugal News , citing Portugal's strict secrecy laws.

This news follows a press conference given on Wednesday morning at the New Scotland Yard by officers from Operation Grange investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, during which they issued a further appeal for information.

During the course of their enquiries, officers reportedly identified a potential linked series of twelve crimes which occurred between 2004 and 2010, mostly in low season, whereby a male intruder gained access to mainly holiday villas occupied by UK families on holiday in the Western Algarve.

In four cases between 2004 and 2006 the man sexually assaulted five white girls, aged between seven and 10 years, whilst in their beds. On one of these occasions, he assaulted two girls in the same villa.

Whilst the Metropolitan Police Service admits they are not identical, there are many similar aspects to each of the incidents in that in most cases there were no signs of forced entry to the property, nothing was taken, and the intruder appeared in the early hours of the morning between 2am and 5am.

The suspect may have been in the villa or looking round the villa for some time before committing the offences or being disturbed either by a parent, or the child waking up.

He remained calm, even when disturbed.

On two occasions the noise of a bin collection lorry could be heard nearby.

Of the twelve offences, there were four in Carvoeiro, six in the Vale da Parra, Praia da Galé district and two in Praia da Luz.

Witnesses describe the man as having dark (as in tanned) skin with short dark unkempt hair. He spoke in English with a foreign accent, his voice was described as slow, or possibly slurred.

He was sometimes bare-chested, some describe him as having a pot belly, and three victims said that he had a noticeable odour.

On two occasions in Vale de Parra and Praia da Galé he was wearing a distinctive burgundy long sleeve top, on one of those occasions it was described as having a white circle on the back.

DCI Andy Redwood, the senior investigating officer said on Wednesday, "We need to establish the identity of this man.

"These offences are very serious and no one has been charged in connection with them. We also need to eliminate this man from our enquiries and ascertain whether these offences are linked to Madeleine’s disappearance.

"If you have been a victim of a similar crime please come forward even if you reported the incident to police in Portugal, or anywhere else, please do not assume we have been made aware of it.

"While some of these offences have been in the public domain before, following our appeal in October three more were reported to us as a direct result of that appeal. One of those reports we believe is the first in the potential series.

"Please call us on 0800 0961011 if you are within the UK. The number for non-UK residents is +44 207 1580 126. Alternatively if you do not want to speak to us directly you can contact Crimestoppers anonymously on 0800 555 111.

"Our appeal last year was very successful and we had over 5,000 calls which generated new information for us and which we continue to investigate", DCI Redwood said, adding: "We still need to establish the identity of a man seen by three witnesses, carrying a child fitting Madeleine's description towards the beach or town areas at about 10pm on the night Madeleine disappeared. The witnesses have described the man in the e-fits as being white, aged in his 30s, with short brown hair, of medium build, medium height and clean shaven."

The Metropolitan Police Service is offering a reward of up to £20,000 for information leading to the identification, arrest and prosecution of the person(s) responsible for the abduction of Madeleine McCann from Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007.

Figures made available from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office's British Behaviour reports from three years in the period 2005 to 2010, point to 10 incidents of rape involving Britons in Portugal and 11 incidents of sexual assault. These figures do not stipulate the age of victims.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So there you go - Brendan De Beer put his name to an article in which he claimed he or his newspaper spoke to the police source first hand, can it get much clearer than that?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 06, 2019, 05:16:56 PM
How many more? It's obvious they were all copying the same story. Or do you think all the journalists found the same source at PJ headquarters and he told them all the same story one after the other? @)(++(*
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 06, 2019, 05:29:24 PM
How many more? It's obvious they were all copying the same story. Or do you think all the journalists found the same source at PJ headquarters and he told them all the same story one after the other? @)(++(*
It’s obvious to me (if not to you) that the Portugal News story by Brendan de Beer is the source of the story.  He claims his paper spoke to the PJ source, so are you telling me he made it up?  If so, to what end?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on February 06, 2019, 06:08:32 PM
This story arose because OG turned it's attention to this line of enquiry. The UK media took the opportunity to criticise the PJ (again) for not telling OG about it earlier;

Wednesday 19th March 2014

Redwood appeals for information about the man who  allegedly attacked children in the Algarve. A burgandly top was mentioned. It was said that there were 12 incidents, nine of which were reported to the Portuguese police. UK news said that the Portuguese police didn't pass on the information about these crimes to OG; they only found out about it when three families responded to an appeal for information in 2013.
 https://www.channel4.com/news/madeleine-mccann-police-appeal-sex-attacker

Well that's wrong for a start. Kate McCann wrote  about it in her book in 2011. She said she found the information in some files. However;

The Portuguese have been accused once more of incompetence, so anything they say is going to be defensive. Amongst other things, they said that OG was told about it in October 2013 by the PJ, but OG decloned to comment;

Contacted by PÚBLICO, one of the spokesmen of the Metropolitan Police of London declined to comment on the clarifications made by the PJ, refusing to confirm or deny that British investigators were informed months ago by the Portuguese about this line of investigation. It remains to be explained why Scotland Yard decided to announce on Wednesday that it is looking for a sex offender.
https://www.publico.pt/2014/03/19/sociedade/noticia/pj-reabriu-inquerito-maddie-ha-meses-por-causa-de-suspeito-procurado-agora-pelos-ingleses-1628961

In my opinion it's by no means clear where the information came from or who knew about it and when. There were rumours but nothing concrete was said by any identifiable source.

Kate McCann did not get her information from "some files".  In her book she clearly states that the information was given to her by the British consul for the Algarve, Bill Henderson.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on February 06, 2019, 06:11:26 PM
I don't know what was said to the press or who said it. Therefore I don't know whether it's true or not.  I do know that Pedro do Carmo said in 2017 that the PJ didn't know what crime was committed, so whatever lines of inquiry they have followed they have reached no conclusions.

Please provide a cite for Pedro do Carmo's statement, thank you.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Sunny on February 06, 2019, 06:18:39 PM
Please provide a cite for Pedro do Carmo's statement, thank you.

He said

First because there was a deliberate and legitimate effort on the part of the child's parents in keeping the issue on the agenda of the media. But there are also other elements, such as the circumstances of the disappearance. Ten years later we still do not know what happened, which makes it possible to say, at least in relation to Portugal, that this is a unique case. We had never had one, and we did not have a similar case again. There were other cases of disappearances of children where it was not possible to bring the perpetrators to justice. But in those cases we either caught someone or it was possible for the police to understand what had happened. In this case we are not yet in a position to say what is behind the disappearance. This makes it a unique case. And maybe an extremely rare case worldwide.


Link (it was one of your posts Brietta) http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8172.15
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on February 06, 2019, 06:42:02 PM
He said

First because there was a deliberate and legitimate effort on the part of the child's parents in keeping the issue on the agenda of the media. But there are also other elements, such as the circumstances of the disappearance. Ten years later we still do not know what happened, which makes it possible to say, at least in relation to Portugal, that this is a unique case. We had never had one, and we did not have a similar case again. There were other cases of disappearances of children where it was not possible to bring the perpetrators to justice. But in those cases we either caught someone or it was possible for the police to understand what had happened. In this case we are not yet in a position to say what is behind the disappearance. This makes it a unique case. And maybe an extremely rare case worldwide.


Link (it was one of your posts Brietta) http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8172.15

Not only is it polite ... it is protocol to supply a link particularly when putting words into another person's mouth.

The link you have very kindly provided is well worth a read to take note of what was said in the fuller picture ...

Snip
Do you think it was a mistake to have the McCann couple constituted as arguidos in September 2007?

Obviously, I will not answer that question. But what I can say, just as I did back in 2011 and 2013, is that Maddie's parents are not suspects. That statement remains: the parents are not suspects. Period.

http://expresso.sapo.pt/dossies/diario/2017-05-02-Pedro-do-Carmo-Os-pais-de-Maddie-nao-sao-suspeitos.-Ponto
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 06, 2019, 06:53:24 PM
Kate McCann did not get her information from "some files".  In her book she clearly states that the information was given to her by the British consul for the Algarve, Bill Henderson.

Did he write to her?

August 2008

She read of 'five cases of British children on holiday being sexually abused in their beds while their parents slept in
another room'.
[madeleine]
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 06, 2019, 07:20:01 PM
Please provide a cite for Pedro do Carmo's statement, thank you.

Martin Brunt "Do you accept that she was abducted?"
Pedro do Carmo "We don't know what happened and we have to be prepared tp deal with different scenarios"

Searching for Madeleine 29:34
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FX3u2Hp42ic
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on February 06, 2019, 07:43:19 PM
Did he write to her?

August 2008

She read of 'five cases of British children on holiday being sexually abused in their beds while their parents slept in
another room'.
[madeleine]
No he did not write to her ... he spoke to her directly.  It was quite sometime later when she had access to the files of which that was obviously part which was not published on the internet about which Kate wrote in her book:
Snip
I guessed these were the reports that Bill Henderson, the British consul at the time of Madeleine’s abduction, had told me about.  MADELEINE

But of course you already know that.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 06, 2019, 08:12:11 PM
No he did not write to her ... he spoke to her directly.  It was quite sometime later when she had access to the files of which that was obviously part which was not published on the internet about which Kate wrote in her book:
Snip
I guessed these were the reports that Bill Henderson, the British consul at the time of Madeleine’s abduction, had told me about.  MADELEINE

But of course you already know that.

The udea that Kate McCann received information which wasn't published on the internet is an opinion, not a fact.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 06, 2019, 08:36:55 PM
The udea that Kate McCann received information which wasn't published on the internet is an opinion, not a fact.
???
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 06, 2019, 09:24:22 PM
Kate McCann did not get her information from "some files".  In her book she clearly states that the information was given to her by the British consul for the Algarve, Bill Henderson.

The Consul was very lucky he didn't get into trouble. He seems to have been a very undiplomatic diplomat. If Kate McCann had repeated what he told her the tour operators would have been very upset imo. He pretty much accused them of putting profit before the safety of their guest's children.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 06, 2019, 10:04:24 PM
The Consul was very lucky he didn't get into trouble. He seems to have been a very undiplomatic diplomat. If Kate McCann had repeated what he told her the tour operators would have been very upset imo. He pretty much accused them of putting profit before the safety of their guest's children.
And what would be the problem with that?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 07, 2019, 08:38:14 AM
And what would be the problem with that?

British Consul admits he knew about child sex attacks in the Algarve.

Holidaymakers were kept in the dark by Tour Operators keem to protect their businesses.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on February 07, 2019, 12:30:35 PM

British Consul admits he knew about child sex attacks in the Algarve.

Holidaymakers were kept in the dark by Tour Operators keem to protect their businesses.

I take it that is your headline and not one the McCanns and their party would have seen while choosing a holiday destination?
Do you think parents embarking to a supposedly safe destination catering for children of all ages should have been denied that information to enable informed choices?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 07, 2019, 01:04:12 PM
I take it that is your headline and not one the McCanns and their party would have seen while choosing a holiday destination?
Do you think parents embarking to a supposedly safe destination catering for children of all ages should have been denied that information to enable informed choices?

The information was allegedly kept quiet by tour operators and a British diplomat. Was that acceptable? Why did the diplomat then throw caution to the winds following the disappearance of a child and tell that child's mother about it? Didn't he realise that he was exposing them all to accusations of deceiving British tourists by omission?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on February 07, 2019, 01:44:04 PM
We're back to the old "if the police source isn't named by the paper we don't have to believe it" excuse.  Pathetic game playing IMO.



Mark Rowley:There are odd headlines and odd stories in newspapers on a regular basis and most of those are nonsense.
 
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Sunny on February 07, 2019, 04:10:54 PM
The information was allegedly kept quiet by tour operators and a British diplomat. Was that acceptable? Why did the diplomat then throw caution to the winds following the disappearance of a child and tell that child's mother about it? Didn't he realise that he was exposing them all to accusations of deceiving British tourists by omission?

Which when you think about it is very serious (assuming that it is true of course).
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 07, 2019, 06:09:55 PM

British Consul admits he knew about child sex attacks in the Algarve.

Holidaymakers were kept in the dark by Tour Operators keem to protect their businesses.
Please supply the link.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 07, 2019, 06:12:07 PM

British Consul admits he knew about child sex attacks in the Algarve.

Holidaymakers were kept in the dark by Tour Operators keem to protect their businesses.
I asked what would be the problem of accusing tour operators of putting profit before the safety of their guests children, something which you claim he did but now seem to be claiming the reverse with your headline.  Which is it?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on February 07, 2019, 07:06:05 PM
The information was allegedly kept quiet by tour operators and a British diplomat. Was that acceptable? Why did the diplomat then throw caution to the winds following the disappearance of a child and tell that child's mother about it? Didn't he realise that he was exposing them all to accusations of deceiving British tourists by omission?

The wonder is that the Portuguese police of the time failed to do what Colin Sutton is alleged to have done in his investigations ... that is to dot the i's ~ cross the t's and go that extra mile.

The Portuguese police of the time appear to have paid scant regard to looking for let alone apprehend the perpetrator who assaulted children in their beds while their parents slept in the next room.

Don't you think a police officer of Sutton's calibre given the evidence available in 2007 might not have checked out links between assaults on British girls ... and the disappearances of Joana Cipriano (difficult for the Portuguese I know since they had already 'solved' Joana's case and saw her mother jailed for her murder) and Madeleine McCann.

There are actually quite a few British child victims of crime who have been denied justice and that can only be due to the Portuguese police failure and not the civilians you blame.

Would Sutton have squandered the golden hours had he been in charge of the Portuguese investigation when it mattered in 2007? 
Given his eye for detail do you think he would have ignored reports of a man entering holiday lets and the beds of children in a case involving a child disappearing from her bed in a holiday let?

I don't think he would have ignored all or any of that if his record is anything to go by.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 07, 2019, 07:39:49 PM
The wonder is that the Portuguese police of the time failed to do what Colin Sutton is alleged to have done in his investigations ... that is to dot the i's ~ cross the t's and go that extra mile.

The Portuguese police of the time appear to have paid scant regard to looking for let alone apprehend the perpetrator who assaulted children in their beds while their parents slept in the next room.

Don't you think a police officer of Sutton's calibre given the evidence available in 2007 might not have checked out links between assaults on British girls ... and the disappearances of Joana Cipriano (difficult for the Portuguese I know since they had already 'solved' Joana's case and saw her mother jailed for her murder) and Madeleine McCann.

There are actually quite a few British child victims of crime who have been denied justice and that can only be due to the Portuguese police failure and not the civilians you blame.

Would Sutton have squandered the golden hours had he been in charge of the Portuguese investigation when it mattered in 2007? 
Given his eye for detail do you think he would have ignored reports of a man entering holiday lets and the beds of children in a case involving a child disappearing from her bed in a holiday let?

I don't think he would have ignored all or any of that if his record is anything to go by.

I'm not convinced they knew about it. Apparenly the tour operators, the British Consul and Kate McCann knew, but did any of them chase it up with the police? It seems they didn't.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on February 07, 2019, 11:39:48 PM
I'm not convinced they knew about it. Apparenly the tour operators, the British Consul and Kate McCann knew, but did any of them chase it up with the police? It seems they didn't.

Kate McCann was given the information shortly after Madeleine's disappearance and states in MADELEINE that she was unsure why she put the information to the back of her mind for many months.
Except that at the time in her mind she could not cope with thinking of Madeleine's disappearance together with the cases of these abused little girls.

The McCanns tried to convince the police that Madeleine had been abducted and we see how far they got with that.

Yet again your post seems to be shifting the onus of investigating crime away from the police and onto the victims.

The police had a job to do and if they weren't already chasing up these assaults on children and ruling them in or out in Madeleine's case ... I think it is obvious they just were not doing their job.

Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 08, 2019, 07:40:28 AM
Kate McCann was given the information shortly after Madeleine's disappearance and states in MADELEINE that she was unsure why she put the information to the back of her mind for many months.
Except that at the time in her mind she could not cope with thinking of Madeleine's disappearance together with the cases of these abused little girls.

The McCanns tried to convince the police that Madeleine had been abducted and we see how far they got with that.

Yet again your post seems to be shifting the onus of investigating crime away from the police and onto the victims.

The police had a job to do and if they weren't already chasing up these assaults on children and ruling them in or out in Madeleine's case ... I think it is obvious they just were not doing their job.

The police can only investigate crimes if they know about them. It was four years before these crimes were mentioned by anyone. Apparently the British Consul thought about them right away and wondered if there was a connection but wasn't concerned enough to speak to the PJ avout it.

Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 08, 2019, 07:53:33 AM
The police can only investigate crimes if they know about them. It was four years before these crimes were mentioned by anyone. Apparently the British Consul thought about them right away and wondered if there was a connection but wasn't concerned enough to speak to the PJ avout it.
Cite?  Did none of the crimes get reported to the police at the time? 
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 08, 2019, 08:26:13 AM
Cite?  Did none of the crimes get reported to the police at the time?

All I know is that according to 'madeleine'one woman wrote a letter of complaint to the GNR. There's no mention of the PJ being involved.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on February 08, 2019, 11:16:50 AM
The police can only investigate crimes if they know about them. It was four years before these crimes were mentioned by anyone. Apparently the British Consul thought about them right away and wondered if there was a connection but wasn't concerned enough to speak to the PJ avout it.

One wonders when and why a DNA sample was taken from the Judicial Police suspect in these assaults and was able to rule him out of involvement years down the line and after his death?
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/madeleine-mccann-investigation-prime-suspect-3497005
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Carana on February 08, 2019, 11:19:58 AM
The police can only investigate crimes if they know about them. It was four years before these crimes were mentioned by anyone. Apparently the British Consul thought about them right away and wondered if there was a connection but wasn't concerned enough to speak to the PJ avout it.

Even the CdaM seems to acknowledge that they were reported to the GNR, which then passed them on to the PJ...
https://www.cmjornal.pt/portugal/detalhe/ingleses-investigam-7-abusos-sexuais-antes-de-maddie-desaparecer
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on February 08, 2019, 11:53:54 AM
One wonders when and why a DNA sample was taken from the Judicial Police suspect in these assaults and was able to rule him out of involvement years down the line and after his death?
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/madeleine-mccann-investigation-prime-suspect-3497005

Luckily they did, OG couldn't get their hands on a convenient patsy, all opinion of course.

Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 08, 2019, 12:18:57 PM
One wonders when and why a DNA sample was taken from the Judicial Police suspect in these assaults and was able to rule him out of involvement years down the line and after his death?
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/madeleine-mccann-investigation-prime-suspect-3497005

One wonders why the attacks continued after this man's death too.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 08, 2019, 12:36:28 PM
Even the CdaM seems to acknowledge that they were reported to the GNR, which then passed them on to the PJ...
https://www.cmjornal.pt/portugal/detalhe/ingleses-investigam-7-abusos-sexuais-antes-de-maddie-desaparecer

Amazing as it may seem, newspaper stories are not always correct.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Carana on February 08, 2019, 01:19:20 PM
Amazing as it may seem, newspaper stories are not always correct.

That one dates from 2017, not 2007.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 08, 2019, 02:28:20 PM
That one dates from 2017, not 2007.

Is that relevant?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 08, 2019, 05:46:39 PM
All I know is that according to 'madeleine'one woman wrote a letter of complaint to the GNR. There's no mention of the PJ being involved.
What was the nature of the complaint?  BTW, when did you become exempt from the cite rules of this forum?  That’s twice you’ve ignored my requests.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 08, 2019, 06:13:20 PM
What was the nature of the complaint?  BTW, when did you become exempt from the cite rules of this forum?  That’s twice you’ve ignored my requests.
Here you are; she knew all the technical terms. didn't she? 'Building up profiles' and all that.....

a letter of complaint from one mother to the GNR regarding the sexual abuse of her daughter and the lack of proper attention paid to it by the authorities. The final line in particular has haunted me ever
since:

It is difficult to see with this lack of investigation or interest how a profile of this man can be built up. It did not appear to us that there was any great incentive or determination to find the offender and bring him to justice . . .
Furthermore, it could all have been so much worse . . . indeed this man could go on to do much worse to another child if he’s not stopped now.

[madeleine]

What else do you want a cite for? If it's 'four years before the crimes were mentioned' I think they were first mentioned in 'madeleine' in 2011, but feel free to correct me. 
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 08, 2019, 06:24:36 PM
Here you are; she knew all the technical terms. didn't she? 'Building up profiles' and all that.....

a letter of complaint from one mother to the GNR regarding the sexual abuse of her daughter and the lack of proper attention paid to it by the authorities. The final line in particular has haunted me ever
since:

It is difficult to see with this lack of investigation or interest how a profile of this man can be built up. It did not appear to us that there was any great incentive or determination to find the offender and bring him to justice . . .
Furthermore, it could all have been so much worse . . . indeed this man could go on to do much worse to another child if he’s not stopped now.

[madeleine]

What else do you want a cite for? If it's 'four years before the crimes were mentioned' I think they were first mentioned in 'madeleine' in 2011, but feel free to correct me.
see my replies #653 and #659, two requests for cites, both ignored.
Also, since when has “building a profile” been a technical term, and so what if it is?  What is the significance?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 08, 2019, 07:41:31 PM
see my replies #653 and #659, two requests for cites, both ignored.
Also, since when has “building a profile” been a technical term, and so what if it is?  What is the significance?

#653 I attempted to illustrate what the newspapers might have said if they had been told that the British Consul knew about these incusions and said nothing. It wasn't a quote.

#659 Cite for what?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 08, 2019, 08:46:01 PM
#653 I attempted to illustrate what the newspapers might have said if they had been told that the British Consul knew about these incusions and said nothing. It wasn't a quote.

#659 Cite for what?
The British Consul not being concerned enough about the sex attacks to speak to the police about them.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 08, 2019, 08:51:57 PM
The British Consul not being concerned enough about the sex attacks to speak to the police about them.

I would have expected it to be in the files if he had made a statement.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 08, 2019, 09:11:51 PM
I would have expected it to be in the files if he had made a statement.
So no cite then, ie not a fact, just an opinion.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on February 08, 2019, 09:42:40 PM
Here you are; she knew all the technical terms. didn't she? 'Building up profiles' and all that.....

a letter of complaint from one mother to the GNR regarding the sexual abuse of her daughter and the lack of proper attention paid to it by the authorities. The final line in particular has haunted me ever
since:

It is difficult to see with this lack of investigation or interest how a profile of this man can be built up. It did not appear to us that there was any great incentive or determination to find the offender and bring him to justice . . .
Furthermore, it could all have been so much worse . . . indeed this man could go on to do much worse to another child if he’s not stopped now.

[madeleine]

What else do you want a cite for? If it's 'four years before the crimes were mentioned' I think they were first mentioned in 'madeleine' in 2011, but feel free to correct me.

The problem with cherry picking quotes to suit a particular prejudice or to make a particular debating point is that quite often the essence of the point being made is missed.

Kate was appalled that the Portuguese Police in many instances had not even bothered to log the reported crimes treating them instead as if no actual crime had been committed.

The parents complained that on reporting the crime they felt the complaint was not treated with the gravity it merited ... Kate also notes that in the majority of the cases there was no indication that there had been a break in.

Of more relevance is that when the parents of these crime victims realised that there could have been a link to what had happened to Madeleine and to their child ... which prompted them to contact the British police.

So the question arises ... when news of Madeleine's disappearance broke ... why were the parents of victims capable of thinking there might be a connection but the Policia Judiciaria were incapable of taking that elementary step?


Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 09, 2019, 12:19:05 AM
The problem with cherry picking quotes to suit a particular prejudice or to make a particular debating point is that quite often the essence of the point being made is missed.

Kate was appalled that the Portuguese Police in many instances had not even bothered to log the reported crimes treating them instead as if no actual crime had been committed.

The parents complained that on reporting the crime they felt the complaint was not treated with the gravity it merited ...
  • statements were not taken
  • evidence in the form of DNA or fingerprints was seldom looked for
Kate also notes that in the majority of the cases there was no indication that there had been a break in.

Of more relevance is that when the parents of these crime victims realised that there could have been a link to what had happened to Madeleine and to their child ... which prompted them to contact the British police.

So the question arises ... when news of Madeleine's disappearance broke ... why were the parents of victims capable of thinking there might be a connection but the Policia Judiciaria were incapable of taking that elementary step?
If there was no DNA database in existence why take DNA?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: misty on February 09, 2019, 12:38:01 AM
If there was no DNA database in existence why take DNA?

 How else could PJ match a suspect to DNA samples found in 5A?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 09, 2019, 07:36:32 AM
How else could PJ match a suspect to DNA samples found in 5A?

Did they say they did that?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 09, 2019, 07:56:49 AM
The problem with cherry picking quotes to suit a particular prejudice or to make a particular debating point is that quite often the essence of the point being made is missed.

Kate was appalled that the Portuguese Police in many instances had not even bothered to log the reported crimes treating them instead as if no actual crime had been committed.

The parents complained that on reporting the crime they felt the complaint was not treated with the gravity it merited ...
  • statements were not taken
  • evidence in the form of DNA or fingerprints was seldom looked for
Kate also notes that in the majority of the cases there was no indication that there had been a break in.

Of more relevance is that when the parents of these crime victims realised that there could have been a link to what had happened to Madeleine and to their child ... which prompted them to contact the British police.

So the question arises ... when news of Madeleine's disappearance broke ... why were the parents of victims capable of thinking there might be a connection but the Policia Judiciaria were incapable of taking that elementary step?

You continue to assume that the PJ had knowledge of these crimes. I've seen no evidence that they did. 
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on February 09, 2019, 10:36:55 AM
You continue to assume that the PJ had knowledge of these crimes. I've seen no evidence that they did.

Sadly yet more independent witnesses are labelled 'liars' in a case where indeed the senior investigating officer was later found to be guilty of perjury???
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 09, 2019, 10:58:03 AM
Sadly yet more independent witnesses are labelled 'liars' in a case where indeed the senior investigating officer was later found to be guilty of perjury???

Which independent witnesses claimed that the Policia Judiciaria were informed about these criimes?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on February 09, 2019, 12:38:18 PM
Which independent witnesses claimed that the Policia Judiciaria were informed about these criimes?

Are you seriously ignoring the parents of the victims of these crimes despite being aware that Kate McCann had access to files we have not seen?   You did actually quote her from MADELEINE.

Wherein she has written in one of the passages you have cut and pasted from ... that she cried for hours on reading a complaint from one mother to the GNR that the sexual abuse of her daughter had not received proper attention adding that ...
Snip
The final line in particular has haunted me ever since: ... Furthermore, it could all have been so much
worse . . . indeed this man could go on to do much worse to another child if he’s not stopped now.  Madeleine
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 09, 2019, 01:13:40 PM
How else could PJ match a suspect to DNA samples found in 5A?
Have you any idea of the laws surrounding DNA, in Portugal, around 2007?

Here's a starter.

Police were prevented, by law, from cross referencing one DNA sample to another in another case.  They could only test within the case, and only with the consent of the provider,

That's why the PJ Files have lots of DNA consent forms.

That is possibly why there appears to be still unconfirmed DNA found in 5A.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on February 09, 2019, 03:18:21 PM
Have you any idea of the laws surrounding DNA, in Portugal, around 2007?

Here's a starter.

Police were prevented, by law, from cross referencing one DNA sample to another in another case.  They could only test within the case, and only with the consent of the provider,

That's why the PJ Files have lots of DNA consent forms.

That is possibly why there appears to be still unconfirmed DNA found in 5A.

Excellent news for criminals... Bad news for victims if crime... It seems Portugal are taking steps to bring themselves up to date and have developed a database of sorts... Still woefully inadequate to help victims of crime
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 09, 2019, 04:35:25 PM
Are you seriously ignoring the parents of the victims of these crimes despite being aware that Kate McCann had access to files we have not seen?   You did actually quote her from MADELEINE.

Wherein she has written in one of the passages you have cut and pasted from ... that she cried for hours on reading a complaint from one mother to the GNR that the sexual abuse of her daughter had not received proper attention adding that ...
Snip
The final line in particular has haunted me ever since: ... Furthermore, it could all have been so much
worse . . . indeed this man could go on to do much worse to another child if he’s not stopped now.  Madeleine


I challenge you to demonstrate that your assumptions are facts. Where does it say that those parents reported the crimes to the Policia Judiciara? Where does it say that the McCanns received information from the first investigation which was withheld from everyone else?


Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on February 09, 2019, 04:39:35 PM
Have you any idea of the laws surrounding DNA, in Portugal, around 2007?

Here's a starter.

Police were prevented, by law, from cross referencing one DNA sample to another in another case.  They could only test within the case, and only with the consent of the provider,

That's why the PJ Files have lots of DNA consent forms.

That is possibly why there appears to be still unconfirmed DNA found in 5A.

 identification.

In a conference held last year, the director of the Laboratory of Scientific Police of the Judiciary Police, Carlos Farinha, considered that the number of DNA profiles available in the database is still “very reduced” and identified as one of the problems the ignorance of the legislators on the subject.

As an example, he said that France has 400 times more profiles than Portugal, Germany 200 times more, Switzerland 30 times more and the Czech Republic 20 times more.

At the time, Carlos Farinha also said that, unlike other countries in Europe, Portugal does not have DNA profiles of defendants.

https://www.safecommunitiesportugal.com/%C2%A0dna-database-only-comprises-8000-samples-in-seven-years/
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on February 10, 2019, 02:08:05 AM
I challenge you to demonstrate that your assumptions are facts. Where does it say that those parents reported the crimes to the Policia Judiciara? Where does it say that the McCanns received information from the first investigation which was withheld from everyone else?

You really don't know this already?

Snip
Portuguese police knew about the attacks but ruled out a link to Madeleine’s disappearance because the crimes were spread over a wide geographical area and there were no apparent attempts at abduction.

Four of the burglaries were in Carvoeiro, six in the Vale da Parra, Praia da Gale district, and two in Praia da Luz.

Nine of the 12 incidents were reported to Portuguese police at the time they happened, but British investigators only became aware of three break-ins when the victims came forward in response to televised appeals last autumn.

https://www.channel4.com/news/madeleine-mccann-police-appeal-sex-attacker


Interesting don't you think that one senior investigating officer and his team ruled out a link ... but another senior investigating officer used exactly that as the new information necessary to have Madeleine's case reopened and began to cast around for a suspect later named in the Portuguese press ... who had links to the ocean club ... and a phone which was making calls from Luz despite him sitting at his computer at home writing a poem.

__________________________________________________________________________________

Snip
“Who’s thinking about child abductions in a sleepy, out-of-town tourist resort?” asked Gerry McCann, expressing the common view among parents that places stuffed full of other parents with small children are supremely secure.

Chillingly, the McCanns learnt after the abduction that not only are such resorts an obvious target for paedophiles, but also that parents should have been warned to be vigilant.

In 2008, when the Portuguese police officially stopped pursuing the case, their files revealed that in the three years preceding Madeleine’s disappearance, three intruders had been disturbed in children’s bedrooms within an hour’s drive of Praia de Luz and five children had been abused in their beds while on holiday in the Algarve.

Evidence had not been collected, let alone collated or publicised.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/8503610/Kate-McCann-why-didnt-they-believe-her.html

Is that information ... or the note detailing the dining arrangements available to you or me in the files we have seen?  Yet it was familiar enough to Kate McCann for her to make reference to it in MADELEINE.

I wouldn't call it speculation ... I would deduce (arrive at a fact or a conclusion by reasoning; draw as a logical conclusion) that Kate McCann had access to information unavailable to you or I.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 10, 2019, 08:04:45 AM
You really don't know this already?

Snip
Portuguese police knew about the attacks but ruled out a link to Madeleine’s disappearance because the crimes were spread over a wide geographical area and there were no apparent attempts at abduction.

Four of the burglaries were in Carvoeiro, six in the Vale da Parra, Praia da Gale district, and two in Praia da Luz.

Nine of the 12 incidents were reported to Portuguese police at the time they happened, but British investigators only became aware of three break-ins when the victims came forward in response to televised appeals last autumn.

https://www.channel4.com/news/madeleine-mccann-police-appeal-sex-attacker


Interesting don't you think that one senior investigating officer and his team ruled out a link ... but another senior investigating officer used exactly that as the new information necessary to have Madeleine's case reopened and began to cast around for a suspect later named in the Portuguese press ... who had links to the ocean club ... and a phone which was making calls from Luz despite him sitting at his computer at home writing a poem.

__________________________________________________________________________________

Snip
“Who’s thinking about child abductions in a sleepy, out-of-town tourist resort?” asked Gerry McCann, expressing the common view among parents that places stuffed full of other parents with small children are supremely secure.

Chillingly, the McCanns learnt after the abduction that not only are such resorts an obvious target for paedophiles, but also that parents should have been warned to be vigilant.

In 2008, when the Portuguese police officially stopped pursuing the case, their files revealed that in the three years preceding Madeleine’s disappearance, three intruders had been disturbed in children’s bedrooms within an hour’s drive of Praia de Luz and five children had been abused in their beds while on holiday in the Algarve.

Evidence had not been collected, let alone collated or publicised.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/8503610/Kate-McCann-why-didnt-they-believe-her.html

Is that information ... or the note detailing the dining arrangements available to you or me in the files we have seen?  Yet it was familiar enough to Kate McCann for her to make reference to it in MADELEINE.

I wouldn't call it speculation ... I would deduce (arrive at a fact or a conclusion by reasoning; draw as a logical conclusion) that Kate McCann had access to information unavailable to you or I.

Thank you for the cites. No facts, just media stories presented as facts in my opinion. Do you believe everything you see in the media?  Do you believe this?

"In 2008, when the Portuguese police officially stopped pursuing the case, their files revealed that in the three years preceding Madeleine’s disappearance, three intruders had been disturbed in children’s bedrooms within an hour’s drive of Praia de Luz and five children had been abused in their beds while on holiday in the Algarve."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/8503610/Kate-McCann-why-didnt-they-believe-her.html

Where did that information come from?

I really don't see how the McCanns could have been given files which were explicitly not released from judicial secrecy. That would have been against Portuguese law.

I notice that Kate McCann claimed to have '5,000 or so' pages in her case files. The online DVD has over 11,000 pages.


Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: slartibartfast on February 10, 2019, 08:09:07 AM
Thank you for the cites. No facts, just media stories presented as facts in my opinion. Do you believe everything you see in the media?  Do you believe this?

"In 2008, when the Portuguese police officially stopped pursuing the case, their files revealed that in the three years preceding Madeleine’s disappearance, three intruders had been disturbed in children’s bedrooms within an hour’s drive of Praia de Luz and five children had been abused in their beds while on holiday in the Algarve."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/8503610/Kate-McCann-why-didnt-they-believe-her.html

Where did that information come from?

I really don't see how the McCanns could have been given files which were explicitly not released from judicial secrecy. That would have been against Portuguese law.

I notice that Kate McCann claimed to have '5,000 or so' pages in her case files. The online DVD has over 11,000 pages.

It was all very fishy.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 10, 2019, 08:14:50 AM
It was all very fishy.
Only because you are not in full possession of the facts.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on February 10, 2019, 08:41:55 AM
Only because you are not in full possession of the facts.


Who is?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on February 10, 2019, 08:55:01 AM
You really don't know this already?

Snip
Portuguese police knew about the attacks but ruled out a link to Madeleine’s disappearance because the crimes were spread over a wide geographical area and there were no apparent attempts at abduction.

Four of the burglaries were in Carvoeiro, six in the Vale da Parra, Praia da Gale district, and two in Praia da Luz.

Nine of the 12 incidents were reported to Portuguese police at the time they happened, but British investigators only became aware of three break-ins when the victims came forward in response to televised appeals last autumn.

https://www.channel4.com/news/madeleine-mccann-police-appeal-sex-attacker


Interesting don't you think that one senior investigating officer and his team ruled out a link ... but another senior investigating officer used exactly that as the new information necessary to have Madeleine's case reopened and began to cast around for a suspect later named in the Portuguese press ... who had links to the ocean club ... and a phone which was making calls from Luz despite him sitting at his computer at home writing a poem.

__________________________________________________________________________________

Snip
“Who’s thinking about child abductions in a sleepy, out-of-town tourist resort?” asked Gerry McCann, expressing the common view among parents that places stuffed full of other parents with small children are supremely secure.

Chillingly, the McCanns learnt after the abduction that not only are such resorts an obvious target for paedophiles, but also that parents should have been warned to be vigilant.

In 2008, when the Portuguese police officially stopped pursuing the case, their files revealed that in the three years preceding Madeleine’s disappearance, three intruders had been disturbed in children’s bedrooms within an hour’s drive of Praia de Luz and five children had been abused in their beds while on holiday in the Algarve.

Evidence had not been collected, let alone collated or publicised.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/8503610/Kate-McCann-why-didnt-they-believe-her.html

Is that information ... or the note detailing the dining arrangements available to you or me in the files we have seen?  Yet it was familiar enough to Kate McCann for her to make reference to it in MADELEINE.

I wouldn't call it speculation ... I would deduce (arrive at a fact or a conclusion by reasoning; draw as a logical conclusion) that Kate McCann had access to information unavailable to you or I.


Despite the best efforts of some to link Madeleines disappearance to some alleged sex attacker,a prime suspect and patsy taboot  was ruled out.


Madeleine: DNA finally clears dead suspect:

https://www.portugalresident.com/2014/11/10/madeleine-dna-finally-clears-dead-suspect/
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Lace on February 10, 2019, 08:57:12 AM

Despite the best efforts of some to link Madeleines disappearance to some alleged sex attacker,a prime suspect and patsy taboot  was ruled out.


Madeleine: DNA finally clears dead suspect:

https://www.portugalresident.com/2014/11/10/madeleine-dna-finally-clears-dead-suspect/


I didn't think any of the children identified the man as being black did they?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 10, 2019, 09:00:20 AM
Only because you are not in full possession of the facts.

Anyone who thinks the media have the facts is mistaken in my opinion.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on February 10, 2019, 09:02:34 AM

I didn't think any of the children identified the man as being black did they?


Rather an old fashioned view of those with not fair skin.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on February 10, 2019, 09:09:18 AM
From the channel four link by Brietta.

Redwood:“I completely accept that there are differences. There is no abduction that we can see. But the assumption from that is that Madeleine McCann has been abducted. That may not necessarily follow with all our thinking about what may have become of Madeleine McCann.





Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Lace on February 10, 2019, 09:21:50 AM

Rather an old fashioned view of those with not fair skin.

Please explain your post.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Lace on February 10, 2019, 09:25:01 AM
It seems to me that Amaral who must have known about the man who went into apartments and abused children,  ignored it.    He didn't ask himself how the man got into the apartments either.  Amaral made a huge show trying to prove there was no abduction first by saying no one could have broken into 5a,  yet here was a man who had been entering apartments and leaving no evidence of a break in.  Unbelievable   IMO
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 10, 2019, 09:31:02 AM

Who is?
I would say that Kate McCann has a greater understanding of the police files and what was in those than anyone on this forum and also a greater understanding of what the Met are currently investigating. 
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 10, 2019, 09:32:45 AM
Anyone who thinks the media have the facts is mistaken in my opinion.
Anyone who thinks they have a greater understanding of the facts of this case than either the media (who are known to have direct sources in many police departments) or the victims’ families is living in a cloud of delusion, IMO.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on February 10, 2019, 09:34:35 AM
It seems to me that Amaral who must have known about the man who went into apartments and abused children,  ignored it.    He didn't ask himself how the man got into the apartments either.  Amaral made a huge show trying to prove there was no abduction first by saying no one could have broken into 5a,  yet here was a man who had been entering apartments and leaving no evidence of a break in.  Unbelievable   IMO


Cite for leaving no evidence of break ins please.

Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on February 10, 2019, 09:36:05 AM
Please explain your post.


Self explanatory.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 10, 2019, 09:51:00 AM
It seems to me that Amaral who must have known about the man who went into apartments and abused children,  ignored it.    He didn't ask himself how the man got into the apartments either.  Amaral made a huge show trying to prove there was no abduction first by saying no one could have broken into 5a,  yet here was a man who had been entering apartments and leaving no evidence of a break in.  Unbelievable   IMO

Why do you believe that Amaral must have known about the man? Did anyone claim to have informed the Policia Judiciaria?

As to evidence of break-ins, perhaps Brits abroad have a habit of leaving doors inlocked.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 10, 2019, 10:03:13 AM
Anyone who thinks they have a greater understanding of the facts of this case than either the media (who are known to have direct sources in many police departments) or the victims’ families is living in a cloud of delusion, IMO.

The media were convinced that Martin Smith changed his mind about who he thought he saw on 3rd May. Many people believed them and cited their stories as 'proof'. The stories were all wrong.

I don't know who these victim's families are?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 10, 2019, 10:34:03 AM
The media were convinced that Martin Smith changed his mind about who he thought he saw on 3rd May. Many people believed them and cited their stories as 'proof'. The stories were all wrong.

I don't know who these victim's families are?
Of course the media does get things wrong (and it’s usually the tabs who do have to be taken with a pinch of salt) but can I ask - how do you have any idea what is going on in the country or the world generally?  Do you get you news from nameless individuals on internet forums or do you rely on reputable news outlets to keep abreast of current affairs and stories of public interest?  Are you one of these people who doubts everything they read on newspaper websites or on the BBC news in favour of what you hear on the internet grapevine?  Do you think you have a greater insight into what is happening behind the scenes in this case than the “MSM”? 
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on February 10, 2019, 10:52:04 AM
The media were convinced that Martin Smith changed his mind about who he thought he saw on 3rd May. Many people believed them and cited their stories as 'proof'. The stories were all wrong.

I don't know who these victim's families are?
There are issues with this story, based on the information released or published so far.

Logistics.  How does a perp target only white British children across half of the Algarve?

Why does the British Consulate know about these?

The Algarve in 2007 was a popular destination for other nationalities, including Portuguese, German, French, Dutch, Irish (and American and Australian).  Why just British?  Rather than white girls, or white girls who spoke English?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Lace on February 10, 2019, 10:53:22 AM

Self explanatory.

Not to me it isn't so please explain.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Lace on February 10, 2019, 11:00:51 AM

Cite for leaving no evidence of break ins please.

It is mentioned in this article -    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26646885
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: jassi on February 10, 2019, 11:11:08 AM
It is mentioned in this article -    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26646885

Was there any outcome to that part of OG's investigation?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 10, 2019, 11:20:07 AM
Of course the media does get things wrong (and it’s usually the tabs who do have to be taken with a pinch of salt) but can I ask - how do you have any idea what is going on in the country or the world generally?  Do you get you news from nameless individuals on internet forums or do you rely on reputable news outlets to keep abreast of current affairs and stories of public interest?  Are you one of these people who doubts everything they read on newspaper websites or on the BBC news in favour of what you hear on the internet grapevine?  Do you think you have a greater insight into what is happening behind the scenes in this case than the “MSM”?

What I don't do is rely on the media to get things right or to quote them as if they were authorities. You mention the tabloids, but it was the Telegraph who claimed that the PJ files contained something they didn't.

Whatever source I use I look for evidence that the information they are giving can be independently verified. If there's no evidence that it can then I suspend judgement.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Lace on February 10, 2019, 11:21:02 AM
Was there any outcome to that part of OG's investigation?

They haven't reported that they'd found him but he could still be a suspect in their investigation.  IMO
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: jassi on February 10, 2019, 11:33:28 AM
They haven't reported that they'd found him but he could still be a suspect in their investigation.  IMO

Yet they are reduced to 4 guys (or gals) sitting in an office somewhere in London. pushing paperwork, so not likely in my opinion.
Still, hope springs eternal for some, I guess
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 10, 2019, 11:36:28 AM
What I don't do is rely on the media to get things right or to quote them as if they were authorities. You mention the tabloids, but it was the Telegraph who claimed that the PJ files contained something they didn't.

Whatever source I use I look for evidence that the information they are giving can be independently verified. If there's no evidence that it can then I suspend judgement.
Define “independently verified”.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 10, 2019, 11:37:45 AM
There are issues with this story, based on the information released or published so far.

Logistics.  How does a perp target only white British children across half of the Algarve?

Why does the British Consulate know about these?

The Algarve in 2007 was a popular destination for other nationalities, including Portuguese, German, French, Dutch, Irish (and American and Australian).  Why just British?  Rather than white girls, or white girls who spoke English?

Indeed. Were only British children targetted? How did the perp know they were British? If other nationalities have suffered similar attacks why haven't they spoken up?

Why did the British Consul agree to keeo these crimes quiet? Until he met Kate McCann, of course, when he decided to add to her alarm by telling her all about it. Luckily for him, imo, she didn't realise the sugnificance for over a year. Unluckily for her it was seven years after her daughter disappeared and around three years after they ceased before anyone publicised the crimes.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 10, 2019, 11:43:30 AM
Indeed. Were only British children targetted? How did the perp know they were British? If other nationalities have suffered similar attacks why haven't they spoken up?

Why did the British Consul agree to keeo these crimes quiet? Until he met Kate McCann, of course, when he decided to add to her alarm by telling her all about it. Luckily for him, imo, she didn't realise the sugnificance for over a year. Unluckily for her it was seven years after her daughter disappeared and around three years after they ceased before anyone publicised the crimes.
Do you have a cite for the British Consul agreeing to keep quiet about these crimes?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 10, 2019, 11:48:24 AM
Define “independently verified”.

I used to think that quoting a named person was sufficient, until Colin Sutton accused a journalist of blatantly attrubuting words to hm that he didn't say. Sometimes even what people say in filmed interviews is misquoted in print. In this case verification has been particularly difficult.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 10, 2019, 11:51:32 AM
Do you have a cite for the British Consul agreeing to keep quiet about these crimes?

Were holidaymakers warned?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 10, 2019, 11:53:03 AM
Were holidaymakers warned?
I have no idea, do you have a cite for the British Consul agreeing to take part in a cover up?  It’s a serious allegation which I presume you can back up with actual facts.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 10, 2019, 11:54:13 AM
I used to think that quoting a named person was sufficient, until Colin Sutton accused a journalist of blatantly attrubuting words to hm that he didn't say. Sometimes even what people say in filmed interviews is misquoted in print. In this case verification has been particularly difficult.
Sooooo, what do you accept as independent verification or do you simply pick and choose as it suits your argument to do so?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Lace on February 10, 2019, 12:09:21 PM
Yet they are reduced to 4 guys (or gals) sitting in an office somewhere in London. pushing paperwork, so not likely in my opinion.
Still, hope springs eternal for some, I guess

You said 'so not likely in my opinion'   how can you say that?   You have no idea what their investigating,  and then to say 'hope springs eternal for some'   well yes hope that OG are on to something to catch whoever took Madeleine or even catch that evil paedophile who assaulted the children  I can't understand why you wouldn't want the same IMO
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on February 10, 2019, 12:11:29 PM
Yet they are reduced to 4 guys (or gals) sitting in an office somewhere in London. pushing paperwork, so not likely in my opinion.
Still, hope springs eternal for some, I guess


“It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand. ~ Brian Stimpson, Clockwise
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: jassi on February 10, 2019, 12:15:02 PM
You said 'so not likely in my opinion'   how can you say that?   You have no idea what their investigating,  and then to say 'hope springs eternal for some'   well yes hope that OG are on to something to catch whoever took Madeleine or even catch that evil paedophile who assaulted the children  I can't understand why you wouldn't want the same IMO

I don't need to justify my opinion to you and I have no intention of doing so.
Hope is a waste of time. Wait for reality.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Eleanor on February 10, 2019, 12:18:54 PM
I don't need to justify my opinion to you and I have no intention of doing so.
Hope is a waste of time. Wait for reality.

How very sad.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: jassi on February 10, 2019, 12:21:51 PM
The only thing I hope for is that I wake up tomorrow morning. So far I haven't been disappointed.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 10, 2019, 12:30:47 PM
I don't need to justify my opinion to you and I have no intention of doing so.
Hope is a waste of time. Wait for reality.
So in effect you are hopeless.  I'd go along with that...  8)--))
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: jassi on February 10, 2019, 12:32:52 PM
So in effect you are hopeless.  I'd go along with that...  8)--))

It usually takes one to know one. 8(0(*
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 10, 2019, 12:34:52 PM
It usually takes one to know one. 8(0(*
I'm not remotely as hopeless or as cynical as you are, thank god (who I don't believe in btw). 
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on February 10, 2019, 01:06:16 PM
You said 'so not likely in my opinion'   how can you say that?   You have no idea what their investigating,  and then to say 'hope springs eternal for some'   well yes hope that OG are on to something to catch whoever took Madeleine or even catch that evil paedophile who assaulted the children  I can't understand why you wouldn't want the same IMO


Given the alleged crime is in Portugal,OG do not have a legal right to investigate,what do you suppose they are doing?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on February 10, 2019, 03:46:42 PM

Despite the best efforts of some to link Madeleines disappearance to some alleged sex attacker,a prime suspect and patsy taboot  was ruled out.


Madeleine: DNA finally clears dead suspect:

https://www.portugalresident.com/2014/11/10/madeleine-dna-finally-clears-dead-suspect/

The "(dead) alleged sex attacker ~ prime suspect ~ and patsy to boot" was the property of the Judicial Police; unless you can recall DCI Redwood ever mentioning anything to the contrary.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: barrier on February 10, 2019, 03:50:24 PM
The "(dead) alleged sex attacker ~ prime suspect ~ and patsy to boot" was the property of the Judicial Police; unless you can recall DCI Redwood ever mentioning anything to the contrary.


Redwood never mentioned any name any time including tannerman,not least because he's looking at an abduction as per their remit.Do I need to put imo, no b....r else seems to?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on February 10, 2019, 04:05:49 PM
There are issues with this story, based on the information released or published so far.

Logistics.  How does a perp target only white British children across half of the Algarve?

Why does the British Consulate know about these?

The Algarve in 2007 was a popular destination for other nationalities, including Portuguese, German, French, Dutch, Irish (and American and Australian).  Why just British?  Rather than white girls, or white girls who spoke English?

Good questions ... which most certainly should have been asked by the investigators on the ground at the time.

Which raises two questions for me ...Was there even a central body in existence which collated information on crimes of this type to warn of a pattern in offence and MO?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on February 10, 2019, 04:30:50 PM

Redwood never mentioned any name any time including tannerman,not least because he's looking at an abduction as per their remit.Do I need to put imo, no b....r else seems to?

Why were the Judicial Police investigating an individual with contacts in the Ocean Club whose phone was active in Luz after Madeleine's disappearance?

Who was in the loop of these calls?  Other persons of interest to the PJ?  And are they still interested?

Rhetorical questions ... to which a Sutton might have answers.

Have you never pondered who gave the PJ their remit ... they too are checking out abduction ... please do not insult yourself by requesting a cite for that.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 10, 2019, 06:56:03 PM
Why were the Judicial Police investigating an individual with contacts in the Ocean Club whose phone was active in Luz after Madeleine's disappearance?

Who was in the loop of these calls?  Other persons of interest to the PJ?  And are they still interested?

Rhetorical questions ... to which a Sutton might have answers.

Have you never pondered who gave the PJ their remit ... they too are checking out abduction ... please do not insult yourself by requesting a cite for that.

I won't ask for a cite that the PJ are exploring abduction because there isn't one imo. There's a cite for do Carmo saying they are still looking at all scenarios.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on February 10, 2019, 06:58:34 PM
I won't ask for a cite that the PJ are exploring abduction because there isn't one imo. There's a cite for do Carmo saying they are still looking at all scenarios.

do carmo also said teh parents are not suspects and theres no evidence against them
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 10, 2019, 07:20:36 PM
I won't ask for a cite that the PJ are exploring abduction because there isn't one imo. There's a cite for do Carmo saying they are still looking at all scenarios.
Do you steadfastly refuse to accept that there is clear evidence that the PJ have been investigating stranger abuction?  Even your statement above proves it.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 10, 2019, 07:53:40 PM
Do you steadfastly refuse to accept that there is clear evidence that the PJ have been investigating stranger abuction?  Even your statement above proves it.

I have seen no clear evidence of the PJ investigating anything.

Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 10, 2019, 08:01:24 PM
I have seen no clear evidence of the PJ investigating anything.
So is it your belief that they are lying to the public?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 11, 2019, 06:52:43 AM
So is it your belief that they are lying to the public?

Have they spoken to the public?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 11, 2019, 07:13:31 AM
Have they spoken to the public?
Yes.  You even refer to De Carmo’s interview above.  Now, when he says they are investigating all scenarios do you believe he is lying and they are actually investigating nothing?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 11, 2019, 08:08:53 AM
Yes.  You even refer to De Carmo’s interview above.  Now, when he says they are investigating all scenarios do you believe he is lying and they are actually investigating nothing?

You need to listen to what he actually said instead of putting words into his mouth imo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FX3u2Hp42ic  [29:33]
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 11, 2019, 08:15:01 AM
You need to listen to what he actually said instead of putting words into his mouth imo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FX3u2Hp42ic  [29:33]
YOU said that he claimed the PJ were investigating all scenarios then you asked if the PJ had spoken to the public.  You’re all over the place IMO. 
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 11, 2019, 08:39:03 AM
YOU said that he claimed the PJ were investigating all scenarios then you asked if the PJ had spoken to the public.  You’re all over the place IMO.

Did I say 'investigating'?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 11, 2019, 05:49:43 PM
Did I say 'investigating'?
Oh I see.  You want to play games.  You used the words “looking at”.  So you think they are just looking at all scenarios but not actually investigating any of them.  Rightyho then...  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 11, 2019, 06:19:12 PM
Oh I see.  You want to play games.  You used the words “looking at”.  So you think they are just looking at all scenarios but not actually investigating any of them.  Rightyho then...  @)(++(*

The PJ have never, as far as I know, said they're investigating anything.  Operation Grange seem to have just one theory "However she left that apartment she was abducted" said Mark Rowley. The PJ are willing to consider other possibilities. So as at Spring 2017 the two forces still weren't in complete harmony.

Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 11, 2019, 06:22:10 PM
The PJ have never, as far as I know, said they're investigating anything.  Operation Grange seem to have just one theory "However she left that apartment she was abducted" said Mark Rowley. The PJ are willing to consider other possibilities. So as at Spring 2017 the two forces still weren't in complete harmony.
They won’t get very far “considering other possibilities “ without doing a bit of investigating too.  Do you think they just can’t be arsed?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Angelo222 on February 11, 2019, 06:30:02 PM
The PJ have never, as far as I know, said they're investigating anything.  Operation Grange seem to have just one theory "However she left that apartment she was abducted" said Mark Rowley. The PJ are willing to consider other possibilities. So as at Spring 2017 the two forces still weren't in complete harmony.

SY are at a distinct disadvantage operating from arms length in London so I'm not in the least surprised that they haven't come up with anything significant.  Only the PJ who are on the ground are capable of bringing anything new to this enquiry but they appear to have given up.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 11, 2019, 06:54:22 PM
SY are at a distinct disadvantage operating from arms length in London so I'm not in the least surprised that they haven't come up with anything significant.  Only the PJ who are on the ground are capable of bringing anything new to this enquiry but they appear to have given up.
When are you having your meeting with them?  Perhaps you can kick them up the collective jacksys and get them investigating for a change,  instead of “considering scenarios” and “looking” at the case!
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 11, 2019, 07:17:46 PM
SY are at a distinct disadvantage operating from arms length in London so I'm not in the least surprised that they haven't come up with anything significant.  Only the PJ who are on the ground are capable of bringing anything new to this enquiry but they appear to have given up.

It's strange that they took it on given the distance, the language barrier, the different jusicial system and the cold trail. No-one seemed to consider the difficulties they would face, did they?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: jassi on February 11, 2019, 07:21:16 PM
It's strange that they took it on given the distance, the language barrier, the different jusicial system and the cold trail. No-one seemed to consider the difficulties they would face, did they?

You must remember that it was all politically driven and that they are not known for their attention to detail, so wouldn't appreciate the operational difficulties.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 11, 2019, 08:04:28 PM
It's strange that they took it on given the distance, the language barrier, the different jusicial system and the cold trail. No-one seemed to consider the difficulties they would face, did they?
The case could only be re-opened if new evidence came to light.  Do you think the PJ re-opened the investigation under false pretences?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 11, 2019, 08:53:25 PM
You must remember that it was all politically driven and that they are not known for their attention to detail, so wouldn't appreciate the operational difficulties.

Thinking back, there was some grumbling at the beginning. The lack of a joint inbestigation, the fact that the PJ didn't immediately reopen the investigation in Portugal, the slowness of the responses to the rog requests. Perhaps OG thought they were going to have more freedom to act than they got. 
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 11, 2019, 09:01:11 PM
Thinking back, there was some grumbling at the beginning. The lack of a joint inbestigation, the fact that the PJ didn't immediately reopen the investigation in Portugal, the slowness of the responses to the rog requests. Perhaps OG thought they were going to have more freedom to act than they got.
Or perhaps they believed the PJ actually wanted to help solve this case, how mistaken were they?!
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on February 11, 2019, 09:15:37 PM
Or perhaps they believed the PJ actually wanted to help solve this case, how mistaken were they?!

There were a lot of tensions in Portugal initially regarding Madeleine's case and I would not think all the tensions were between the Portuguese and the English.

Surely there must have been sound reasons why the review work which allowed for Madeleine's case to be reopened was carried out exclusively by Judicial Police based in Porto and without recourse to personnel from the Algarve.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 12, 2019, 07:15:20 AM
Or perhaps they believed the PJ actually wanted to help solve this case, how mistaken were they?!

You seem to think OG were in charge, but they weren't and aren't. They have made it quite clear that the Portuguese have primacy and OG are the ones helping.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 12, 2019, 08:16:56 AM
You seem to think OG were in charge, but they weren't and aren't. They have made it quite clear that the Portuguese have primacy and OG are the ones helping.
And you seem to think the PJ are in charge and doing absolutely nothing apart from “looking at” and “considering”.  If true then shame on them. 
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 12, 2019, 08:47:41 AM
And you seem to think the PJ are in charge and doing absolutely nothing apart from “looking at” and “considering”.  If true then shame on them.

That's not what I said, it's what you think I said.

The PJ definitely have primacy whatever anyone thinks; it's the legal reality.

Although I have seen no evidence telling me what the PJ have been doing, that doesn't mean I've decided they're doing nothing. It means I don't know.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on February 12, 2019, 02:41:52 PM
That's not what I said, it's what you think I said.

The PJ definitely have primacy whatever anyone thinks; it's the legal reality.

Although I have seen no evidence telling me what the PJ have been doing, that doesn't mean I've decided they're doing nothing. It means I don't know.

Don't you think this is a bit of a redundant argument?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 12, 2019, 04:56:41 PM
Don't you think this is a bit of a redundant argument?

Are you referring to my post? I didn't post an argument, I posted facts. The PJ have primacy and we don't know what they are doing. What they aren't doing, accotding to do Carmo, is restricting themselves,like OG, to investigating abduction.

Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Davel on February 12, 2019, 05:00:14 PM
Are you referring to my post? I didn't post an argument, I posted facts. The PJ have primacy and we don't know what they are doing. What they aren't doing, accotding to do Carmo, is restricting themselves,like OG, to investigating abduction.

There is no evidence to suggest that if during their investigation of an abduction that if evidence came to light that an abduction didn't happen.... Then that evidence would not be followed.... Woke and wandered fir example
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Brietta on February 12, 2019, 05:40:29 PM
Are you referring to my post? I didn't post an argument, I posted facts. The PJ have primacy and we don't know what they are doing. What they aren't doing, accotding to do Carmo, is restricting themselves,like OG, to investigating abduction.

Do you think that Sutton would have ignored evidence because he was bound by a 'remit'?  What remit restricted the Portuguese investigation in 2007 from checking out cases which might have had a link to Madeleine's case?

Snip
Police are especially interested in a 2005 sexual assault against a 10-year-old girl in the very resort in Praia de Luz where McCann disappeared two years later. The perpetrator had never been caught, but the girl had given a clear description of the attacker to police. “In this new tranche of information we have got one crime which is very clearly in the heart of Praia da Luz in 2005, on a young, white, 10-year-old girl,” chief detective Andy Redwood told reporters on Wednesday. “Clearly the fact that we’ve now got an assault that is in the heart of Praia da Luz, very close to where a previous matter had been reported, means that we are even more interested in this as part of the inquiry.”
https://www.thedailybeast.com/was-madeline-mccann-one-of-many

Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 12, 2019, 06:31:48 PM
That's not what I said, it's what you think I said.

The PJ definitely have primacy whatever anyone thinks; it's the legal reality.

Although I have seen no evidence telling me what the PJ have been doing, that doesn't mean I've decided they're doing nothing. It means I don't know.
So when they re-opened the case and said they were looking at all scenarios you don’t know if they actually did any investigating or not.  Is it not reasonable to expect that they did, and would it not be extremely unreasonable of them to have spent the last few years doing no investigating at all? 
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 12, 2019, 07:25:25 PM
Do you think that Sutton would have ignored evidence because he was bound by a 'remit'?  What remit restricted the Portuguese investigation in 2007 from checking out cases which might have had a link to Madeleine's case?

Snip
Police are especially interested in a 2005 sexual assault against a 10-year-old girl in the very resort in Praia de Luz where McCann disappeared two years later. The perpetrator had never been caught, but the girl had given a clear description of the attacker to police. “In this new tranche of information we have got one crime which is very clearly in the heart of Praia da Luz in 2005, on a young, white, 10-year-old girl,” chief detective Andy Redwood told reporters on Wednesday. “Clearly the fact that we’ve now got an assault that is in the heart of Praia da Luz, very close to where a previous matter had been reported, means that we are even more interested in this as part of the inquiry.”
https://www.thedailybeast.com/was-madeline-mccann-one-of-many



In my opinion it's necessary to prove that the PJ knew about these cases before accusing them of ignoring them,
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 12, 2019, 07:33:19 PM
So when they re-opened the case and said they were looking at all scenarios you don’t know if they actually did any investigating or not.  Is it not reasonable to expect that they did, and would it not be extremely unreasonable of them to have spent the last few years doing no investigating at all?

I will leave the speculating to you if you don't mind.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 12, 2019, 08:02:19 PM
I will leave the speculating to you if you don't mind.
I wasn’t asking you to speculate if you read what I wrote properly.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 12, 2019, 09:19:48 PM
I wasn’t asking you to speculate if you read what I wrote properly.

What were you asking?
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 12, 2019, 09:48:46 PM
What were you asking?
Go back and read my post.  I can’t write it any plainer than that.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: G-Unit on February 13, 2019, 06:22:33 AM
Go back and read my post.  I can’t write it any plainer than that.

Here it is;

"So when they re-opened the case and said they were looking at all scenarios you don’t know if they actually did any investigating or not." 

1. They didn't say anything about scenarios when they reopened the case.
2. I never saw any evidence that they were investigating anything between 2013 and now.  No appeals, no reports
 of interviewing, no arguidos,no digging or searching.

"Is it not reasonable to expect that they did, and would it not be extremely unreasonable of them to have spent the last few years doing no investigating at all?"

You are now telling me what is or is not 'reasonable in your opinion, and asking me if I agree.

I do agree, and I would expect them to be doing something, but that's not the point. The point is what I know, not what I think. I don't know whether they have done anything or what it was.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Vertigo Swirl on February 13, 2019, 07:21:05 AM
Here it is;

"So when they re-opened the case and said they were looking at all scenarios you don’t know if they actually did any investigating or not." 

1. They didn't say anything about scenarios when they reopened the case.
2. I never saw any evidence that they were investigating anything between 2013 and now.  No appeals, no reports
 of interviewing, no arguidos,no digging or searching.

"Is it not reasonable to expect that they did, and would it not be extremely unreasonable of them to have spent the last few years doing no investigating at all?"

You are now telling me what is or is not 'reasonable in your opinion, and asking me if I agree.

I do agree, and I would expect them to be doing something, but that's not the point. The point is what I know, not what I think. I don't know whether they have done anything or what it was.
Thank you.  At least we can agree about something!
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 17, 2019, 03:19:45 PM
Or perhaps they believed the PJ actually wanted to help solve this case, how mistaken were they?!

Well not so mistaken as neither police forces have found an abductor... and now OG have joined up thinking with the PJ with regards to woke and wandered. leave Kaate and CREW to explain about the whooshing and moving doors all being 'evidence' of an abduction- as the main'evidence' the JT eyewitness account was thrown away.
Title: Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
Post by: Robittybob1 on February 17, 2019, 06:01:04 PM
Well not so mistaken as neither police forces have found an abductor... and now OG have joined up thinking with the PJ with regards to woke and wandered. leave Kaate and CREW to explain about the whooshing and moving doors all being 'evidence' of an abduction- as the main'evidence' the JT eyewitness account was thrown away.
Not mistaken there.