UK Justice Forum - Happy Father's Day!

Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Aiofe on October 29, 2013, 12:00:06 PM

Title: Poll - The Divergence of Views on this subject
Post by: Aiofe on October 29, 2013, 12:00:06 PM
Reading this and other forums, there is an incredible divergence of views on this subject, often looking like two completely separate camps.

One side defends the Portuguese Original Investigation, supports Goncalo Amaral, believes the McCanns are responsible in some way beyond neglect for the Disappearance of Madeleine, and most of all: believes that all the other 'side' is completely wrong.
The other side defends the McCanns against any more wrong doing than sub-criminal neglect, sees the original Portuguese investigation by Amaral and others to be severely flawed,  believes that an Abduction by people unknown took place, and most of all: believes that all the other 'side' is completely wrong.

I am trying to gauge the certainty of belief and willingness to accept alternate possibilities.

(Please note that this does not include the concept of legal or moral neglect- most people seem to believe that there was a level of neglect, and there is some argument about  whether this was illegal in Portugal. The question above only applies to direct responsibility for the disappearance of Madeleine- was she removed by strangers or harmed by her family is what divides the camps. Even if the McCanns neglect enabled an abduction, the perpetrators are still the abductors.)
Title: Re: Poll - The Divergence of Views on this subject
Post by: Mr Moderator on October 29, 2013, 01:08:30 PM
Thank you for posting this poll Aiofe.  It has been edited in accordance with forum rules and protocols.
Title: Re: Poll - The Divergence of Views on this subject
Post by: Aiofe on October 29, 2013, 01:20:30 PM
Thank you for posting this poll Aiofe.  It has been edited in accordance with forum rules and protocols.

Thanks. I can't even see what you have edited!
Title: Re: Poll - The Divergence of Views on this subject
Post by: Cariad on October 29, 2013, 01:33:26 PM
This is a toughie!

I read 1, as any evidential outcome at first and was about to tick it.....


I'm going for 3, I think.

The only thing I absolutely know for sure in this case, is that Madeleine McCann is missing and has been since the 3rd of May 2007.
Title: Re: Poll - The Divergence of Views on this subject
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 29, 2013, 02:49:50 PM
Yes I voted 3 to be fair and open minded. Notice pro McCann's aren't open minded. Innocent no matter what blazing to the top!
Title: Re: Poll - The Divergence of Views on this subject
Post by: Aegean on October 29, 2013, 02:50:38 PM
I'm a bit like Cariad, the only thing that's certain is that Madeleine is missing and has been since the 3rd of May 2007.

I actually don't know what I "think" happened. I can believe it was an abductor(s) and I can also believe in the involvement of her parents.

Even if the parents aren't responsible for whatever happened to Madeleine, I feel they've been a bit too into their media image and have interfered in the proceedings to the detriment of the investigations. Their general arrogance and egoism, and what we know about how they "looked after" their kids, do make me feel that it's not impossible that one of them could have struck out at Madeleine because she was "annoying" them, or that condtions in the room were not safe and Madeleine had some accident. But, if they are the ones who "did" it, then there has to be a really plausible scenario as to exactly what happened and what they did with her body, and that hasn't really been presented yet.

Similarly, if an abductor or abductors are inovlved then, to be honest, there's also something "far fetched" about that too. How exactly would that have been achieved, and by whom? I've tried initiating a discussion on child stranger abductions and alleged pedophile rings, how common they are and how they operate, but that effort didn't get very far.

I'm intrigued by the new investigations. I'm not sure if they will come to any satisfactory conclusion, as this is such a complicated case and so many years have passed now. But, to be opening up the inquiry again, they must have some kind of plausible theory or evidence, and that must be more than an old efit of Smithman.

Whatever the conclusion is, I could accept it if it was really conclusive and there weren't too many legitimate questions still lingering. Of course, perhaps the only conclusion that would put all questions to rest is if Madeleine were found, dead or alive.
Title: Re: Poll - The Divergence of Views on this subject
Post by: Aegean on October 29, 2013, 02:54:04 PM
Needless to say, I voted 1 (I am willing to accept any eventual outcome despite my current beliefs).
Title: Re: Poll - The Divergence of Views on this subject
Post by: Eleanor on October 29, 2013, 02:58:17 PM
Needless to say, I voted 1 (I am willing to accept any eventual outcome despite my current beliefs).

So did I.  That is what I call open minded.
Title: Re: Poll - The Divergence of Views on this subject
Post by: Aiofe on October 29, 2013, 04:15:11 PM
Yes I voted 3 to be fair and open minded. Notice pro McCann's aren't open minded. Innocent no matter what blazing to the top!

The figures don't seem to back you up- maybe the [ censored word ] just voted earlier.
Title: Re: Poll - The Divergence of Views on this subject
Post by: imustpointout on October 29, 2013, 04:27:16 PM
5 would be the pro vote
Title: Re: Poll - The Divergence of Views on this subject
Post by: Eleanor on October 29, 2013, 04:37:02 PM
I voted for number one.

So did I, Neely, and already stated.  I wonder how they managed to miss that?  Mind you, I have long suspected that they only read what they want to read.
Title: Re: Poll - The Divergence of Views on this subject
Post by: Aiofe on October 29, 2013, 04:41:27 PM
5 would be the pro vote

If [ censored word ] believe the Mccanns- there are two 'believe the McCanns' possibile votes.
If [ censored word] don't believe the Mccanns there are two 'don't believe the McCanns' possible votes.

[ censored word ] and [ censored word] then have the choice to be 'certain' or willing to change their mind. Option one is for true fencesitters.
Title: Re: Poll - The Divergence of Views on this subject
Post by: Aiofe on October 29, 2013, 04:43:14 PM
Currently 75% are flexible and only 25% dogmatic. Why so many arguments if three quarters of the board admit that they might be proved wrong?
Title: Re: Poll - The Divergence of Views on this subject
Post by: Eleanor on October 29, 2013, 04:54:16 PM
Currently 75% are flexible and only 25% dogmatic. Why so many arguments if three quarters of the board admit that they might be proved wrong?

You don't think we are arguing about who's right and who's wrong, do you?  I am arguing for the right to be innocent until proved guilty.
Some are arguing for a Kangaroo Court of their opinion.
Title: Re: Poll - The Divergence of Views on this subject
Post by: Aiofe on October 29, 2013, 04:56:46 PM
You don't think we are arguing about who's right and who's wrong, do you?  I am arguing for the right to be innocent until proved guilty.
Some are arguing for a Kangaroo Court of their opinion.

I was thinking of the petty squabbles that continually deface the board. If there are only one in four people who are completely convinced they are right, they may have to face changing sides in future- surely if three quarters of the people at least admit that they may be wrong, then the board could become much more even tempered.
Title: Re: Poll - The Divergence of Views on this subject
Post by: Eleanor on October 29, 2013, 05:17:16 PM

Not if Pro Posts keep on getting removed.
Title: Re: Poll - The Divergence of Views on this subject
Post by: Cariad on October 29, 2013, 05:47:11 PM
Currently 75% are flexible and only 25% dogmatic. Why so many arguments if three quarters of the board admit that they might be proved wrong?

Probably because a lot of the squabbles are about things we feel strongly about which aren't actually about guilt or innocence of the parties involved.

I've argued till I'm blue in the face that it's never acceptable to leave kids alone. I'm not ever going to change my mind about that.

Others argue about the dog alerts. A lot of people have very strong opinions about that.

Some of it is just personality clashes' we get on each others nerves!

The facts are very. very thin on the ground in this case. Frankly I don't really understand how anyone could be convince either way.
Title: Re: Poll - The Divergence of Views on this subject
Post by: imustpointout on October 29, 2013, 07:13:27 PM


"I believe the McCanns are innocent but given enough further information I may change my mind."

I start from the presumption of innocence - hence my 5 vote.
Title: Re: Poll - The Divergence of Views on this subject
Post by: Redblossom on October 29, 2013, 07:30:01 PM

"I believe the McCanns are innocent but given enough further information I may change my mind."

I start from the presumption of innocence - hence my 5 vote.

This is not a law court and none of us are jurors in any case.....forums are about OPINIONS...right wrong or neither



i voted 3 because that is my opinion at present...or rather closest to it though not exact
Title: Re: Poll - The Divergence of Views on this subject
Post by: imustpointout on October 29, 2013, 07:38:43 PM
This is not a law court and none of us are jurors in any case.....forums are about OPINIONS...right wrong or neither



i voted 3 because that is my opinion at present...or rather closest to it though not exact

I don't think you have to explain to anyone on here that you suspect the McCanns of involvement
Title: Re: Poll - The Divergence of Views on this subject
Post by: carlymichelle on October 29, 2013, 07:39:37 PM
I don't think you have to explain to anyone on here that you suspect the McCanns of involvement

and thats her  right
Title: Re: Poll - The Divergence of Views on this subject
Post by: imustpointout on October 29, 2013, 07:41:06 PM
and thats her  right

of course it is
Title: Re: Poll - The Divergence of Views on this subject
Post by: Redblossom on October 29, 2013, 07:44:24 PM
I don't think you have to explain to anyone on here that you suspect the McCanns of involvement

there you are again making assumptions, i said I voted for 3 as it was nearest to what I believe but not exact, I suspect them.....IMO they are not truthful or convincing and there is proof they embellish the truth and have displayed very dodgy behaviours and I dont know why as parents of a missing child
 8((()*/

Eta thanks carly, i dont like cults and I certainly dont like people telling me what to think or telling me what I think is wrong in x y z language and for x y z reasons....those people need to take a massive hike
 8((()*/

Title: Re: Poll - The Divergence of Views on this subject
Post by: imustpointout on October 29, 2013, 07:48:00 PM
there you are again making assumptions, i said I voted for 3 as it was nearest to what I believe but not exact, I suspect them.....IMO they are not truthful or convincing and there is proof they embellish the truth and have displayed very dodgy behaviours and I dont know why as parents of a missing child
 8((()*/

I didn't assume anything - you told us that you voted number 3 which says:

"I suspect the McCanns of involvement but given enough further information I may change my mind."
Title: Re: Poll - The Divergence of Views on this subject
Post by: Aegean on October 29, 2013, 08:00:04 PM
You don't think we are arguing about who's right and who's wrong, do you?  I am arguing for the right to be innocent until proved guilty.
Some are arguing for a Kangaroo Court of their opinion.

Except, we're not the representatives of the state in the form of the law courts. It's not as though if we decide that the McCanns are guilty that we are going to arrest them and put them in prison.

I'm not sure who's arguing for a kangaroo court. We are allowed to think and have opinions, unless you're suggesting that we just behave like zombies whenever the McCanns appear on TV and simply nod our heads and agree with everything they say, and should not be permitted to think "hm, hold on a minute" because then we will be violating their civil rights.

Certainly, the judicial system should deem everyone indicted as innocent until proven guilty and courts should provide a fair process. But, according to what you're saying, no one would ever be indicted of anything and no case would ever be brought to court because for the police even to classify someone as a suspect would be violating the principle of "innocent until proven guilty".
Title: Re: Poll - The Divergence of Views on this subject
Post by: Mr Moderator on October 29, 2013, 08:00:53 PM
Not if Pro Posts keep on getting removed.

Abusive posts will always be removed...what does that tell you?   8(0(*
Title: Re: Poll - The Divergence of Views on this subject
Post by: Eleanor on October 29, 2013, 08:11:07 PM
Abusive posts will always be removed...what does that tell you?   8(0(*

It tells me that the abusive posts of some people are more likely to be overlooked.  And No, I don't make a habit of reporting posters.  But then you probably know that.
Title: Re: Poll - The Divergence of Views on this subject
Post by: Haskins on October 29, 2013, 08:31:07 PM
Voted for 1 but I would also have happily voted for 5.
Title: Re: Poll - The Divergence of Views on this subject
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 30, 2013, 02:57:58 PM
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id400.html

"There will be a point at which we and the Government will want to make a decision about what the likely outcome is."   

(Bernard Hogan-Howe - Metropolitan Police Commissioner).


So what exactly is the 'likely outcome,' and why the need for a 'Government' decision?



http://www.mccannfiles.com/id232.html
"Nonetheless, it is necessary to recall that a criminal investigation cannot have as a concern the politically correct, nor to have its purpose limited by personal interests, institutional or others, nor to be targeted by intolerable pressures and coercive measures, what is at stake is to ascertain the truth and the fate of the child so those responsible for the mysterious disappearance are brought before Justice."

(Gonçarlo Amaral)


Title: Re: Poll - The Divergence of Views on this subject
Post by: Redblossom on October 30, 2013, 03:14:44 PM
"There will be a point at which we and the Government will want to make a decision about what the likely outcome is."   

(Bernard Hogan-Howe - Metropolitan Police Commissioner).


???? very odd
Title: Re: Poll - The Divergence of Views on this subject
Post by: LagosBen on October 30, 2013, 03:49:26 PM
Abusive posts will always be removed...what does that tell you?   8(0(*

I've had a few removed and they were not abusive in any way.

I voted No.2 by the way.