UK Justice Forum

Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => The case of 3-year-old Mikaeel Kular found dead in a Kirkcaldy wood. => Topic started by: Mr Moderator on January 20, 2014, 02:39:45 AM

Title: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Mr Moderator on January 20, 2014, 02:39:45 AM
Rosdeep Kular (known locally as Rosie) the mother of three-year-old Mikaeel Kular is due to appear at Edinburgh Sheriff Court later today to face charges in connection with his death.  She was detained by police investigating her son's disappearance on Friday night before being formally charged on Saturday afternoon.

(http://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/ad_125034437.jpg?w=650&h=488&crop=1#038;h=752)

Mikaeel had been reported missing from his Edinburgh home early on Thursday morning, prompting a major search throughout the area and extending as far as the Firth of Forth at Cramond.

Just before midnight on Friday night however, Mikaeel's body was found in a small wood at Dunvegan Avenue, Kirkcaldy.   It was subsequently revealed that one of the properties at Dunvegan Avenue belongs to the missing boys aunt and had been visited by Rosdeep a few days earlier. 

The boys body was later removed from the wood and taken by ambulance to Edinburgh for an autopsy.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Mr Moderator on January 20, 2014, 03:05:54 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/eFfqVVz.jpg?1)

Map showing where the body of Mikaeel Kular was found by Fife Police and where he had lived since last summer with his mother and siblings in Edinburgh.

A neighbour of the Kular family at Dunvegan Avenue reported seeing the boys mother arrive at the bungalow alone by car shortly before the boy was reported missing.

It is expected that Rosdeep will have a short hearing before a Sheriff in a 'closed court' in which the charge(s) or Indictment will be put to her.  What happens next will depend entirely on her response to that Indictment.

A Sheriff has several options available to him or her.  The case can be continued to another date to be heard by a Sheriff or can be referred up to the High Court which has greater sentencing powers.   If a defendant pleads guilty to the charges they will be remanded in custody pending a sentencing hearing.

It has also now emerged that social workers from Fife Council were monitoring the family up until they left Kirkcaldy and moved to Edinburgh last summer.  It has been claimed that colleagues at City of Edinburgh Council were not advised of the move.


www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2542368/Body-young-boy-recovered-Fife-one-person-detained-police-searching-missing-toddler-Mikaeel-Kular.html?utm_content=buffer4742a&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Angelo222 on January 20, 2014, 07:23:15 AM
MM.  I observe you say the proceedings will be in a closed court today.  I assume the police are worried about disruptions?
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 20, 2014, 08:20:24 AM
MM.  I observe you say the proceedings will be in a closed court today.  I assume the police are worried about disruptions?

Closed court, just one of the many benefits that can be found in any good dictatorship.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: jassi on January 20, 2014, 08:54:30 AM
Closed is not the same as secret. Accredited journalists will be allowed to report proceedings .
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: VIXTE on January 20, 2014, 10:32:37 AM
Closed is not the same as secret. Accredited journalists will be allowed to report proceedings .

I thought they were not be allowed to enter and they were going to get news through an email.. This was said on Sky
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Redblossom on January 20, 2014, 10:41:51 AM
https://mobile.twitter.com/jamesmatthewsky

Appearance is reported to be at 2pm
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: jassi on January 20, 2014, 11:10:19 AM
I thought they were not be allowed to enter and they were going to get news through an email.. This was said on Sky

Maybe I'm wrong, then.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Angelo222 on January 20, 2014, 11:29:05 AM
Press are not permitted in the Court.  Any details will be released by the COPFS.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: CPN on January 20, 2014, 04:31:11 PM
Breaking news - charged with murder and with attempting to defeat the ends of justice

Remanded in custody until date as yet unfixed

Both from Sky News
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 20, 2014, 04:32:56 PM
Breaking news - charged with murder and with attempting to defeat the aims of justice


Blimey, I wonder what the autopsy found then. >@@(*&)
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: John on January 20, 2014, 04:42:45 PM
During a brief hearing in Court No 3 of Edinburgh Sheriff Court before Sheriff Crowe his afternoon, the mother of Mikaeel Kular was indicted on Petition on charges of murder and attempting to defeat the ends of justice.

Miss Kular has been remanded in custody and will shortly be on her way to HMP Cornton Vale.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: CPN on January 20, 2014, 05:02:27 PM
From the Daily Mail: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2542612/Mikaeel-Kulars-mother-Rosdeep-Kular-appears-court-sons-death.html

"The mother of Mikaeel Kular was today charged with murdering her three-year-old son, who went missing last week.

Rosdeep Kular, 33, attended a hearing lasting a few minutes held behind closed doors at Edinburgh Sheriff Court this afternoon, after which it was announced that she faced a murder charge.

She has also been charged with 'attempting to defeat the ends of justice' in connection with the death of Mikaeel.

Ms Kular - who was referred to by her married name of Adekoya - did not enter a plea, and following the hearing she was remanded in custody until her next court appearance on January 28."


Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: VIXTE on January 20, 2014, 05:06:01 PM
I wonder why she did not enter a plea..
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: CPN on January 20, 2014, 05:07:59 PM
From http://www.copfs.gov.uk/media-site/media-releases/640-rosdeep-adekoya-appears-in-court-charged-with-murder-of-mikaeel-kular

"Rosdeep Adekoya has today appeared in private at Edinburgh Sheriff Court.

Details from her court appearance are summarised below.
 
Full name - ROSDEEP ADEKOYA

DOB - 30 March 1980

General Address - Edinburgh

Charges - Murder
              - Attempt to defeat the ends of justice

Plea - No Plea, No Declaration

Outcome - The accused was remanded in custody and committed for further examination

Next appearance - Anticipated 28/01/14"
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Eleanor on January 20, 2014, 05:11:31 PM

I feel ill.  Shocked rigid.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: CPN on January 20, 2014, 05:14:45 PM
I feel ill.  Shocked rigid.

I had hoped it might, in some way or another, be a mistake / an accident.   But murder always implies intent to me
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Eleanor on January 20, 2014, 05:19:39 PM
I had hoped it might, in some way or another, be a mistake / an accident.   But murder always implies intent to me

So did I, CPN.  So did I.  But I don't think I can cope at the moment.  That poor little boy.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: CPN on January 20, 2014, 05:30:25 PM
My thoughts turn also to the other children; and to the mother's parents, who seem to be very well respected members of the community, and other sister (ditto).  They must be utterly bewildered.  And how to explain to the other children?
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: VIXTE on January 20, 2014, 05:33:53 PM
Charging her with 'murder' is a big deal. They had the 'accidental murder' choice too.

This charge feels like 'murder with intention'  and why she would intend to murder her child - for me it doesn't add up.

But she has been charged, not found guilty yet!

Does this mean that the post mortem decision was that Mikaeel was murdered?
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Redblossom on January 20, 2014, 05:36:16 PM
@Vixte


http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2004/12/20339/47561#7

Its possible it may be reduced to culpable homicide, which is without intent.

See 3.7


All depends on all the evidence, which we dont know about, very sad

Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Eleanor on January 20, 2014, 05:37:48 PM
Charging her with 'murder' is a big deal. They had the 'accidental murder' choice too.

This charge feels like 'murder with intention'  and why she would intend to murder her child - for me it doesn't add up.

But she has been charged, not found guilty yet!

Does this mean that the post mortem decision was that Mikaeel was murdered?

There is a bit more to it than deliberate intent.  But speculation is not a good idea.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Serendipity on January 20, 2014, 05:39:04 PM
I had hoped it might, in some way or another, be a mistake / an accident.   But murder always implies intent to me

I think that's what's hit me so hard about the charge. To think that a mother is charged with intending to murder her child is just so hard to contemplate. Culpable Homicide would have been bad enough but for her  to be charged with this makes my blood run cold.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Cariad on January 20, 2014, 05:39:25 PM
Charging her with 'murder' is a big deal. They had the 'accidental murder' choice too.

This charge feels like 'murder with intention'  and why she would intend to murder her child - for me it doesn't add up.

But she has been charged, not found guilty yet!

Does this mean that the post mortem decision was that Mikaeel was murdered?

Does there have to be intent to harm for it to be a murder charge, as opposed to manslaughter for example? Or even causing death by neglect?

I honestly thought it would've been an accident that she'd attempted to cover up.

Those poor, poor children. 

EDIT: just seen that this has already been answered, thanks guys.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Serendipity on January 20, 2014, 05:43:27 PM
@Vixte


http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2004/12/20339/47561#7

Its possible it may be reduced to culpable homicide, which is without intent.

See 3.7


All depends on all the evidence, which we dont know about, very sad
Thanks for the link Red, been trying to find out if possible for the charge to be reduced. The mother in me just cannot comprehend how a mum could intend to kill one of her own.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: CPN on January 20, 2014, 05:45:50 PM
I honestly thought it would've been an accident that she'd attempted to cover up.

Those poor, poor children. 
.

That's what I thought / hoped also, Cariad.   Yes, the poor siblings, especially the twin.  But also the poor parents - you have so many hopes for your children and to then have to see a totally different side to your child....
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: CPN on January 20, 2014, 05:49:31 PM
If you think this is inappropriate John, please remove.  But I always find it so touching, it says so much whether you are religious or not.   And so applies in this case:

The Other Mother


No book of Holy Writ records her name
She lived and died unknown, although her son
Became a sign for infamy and shame
Judas Iscariot, the evil one
She must have dreamed of him as mothers do
The months she cherished him before his birth
And watched with pride and gladness as he grew,
To manhood’s stature, great upon the earth.
When she beheld him on that blessed day
Follow the Holy Man of Galilee,
How would she see the cross along the way
A premonition of the pain to be?

But when his sin of avarice was paid
Its wage of death, what anguish did she know!
Surely her soul walked with him, hurt afraid,
Along the tortured trail they both must go.
Taking his retribution as her own,
Pain would she have suffered in his stead,
But in a potter’s field her son lay dead
By his own hand.   She drained her cup alone.
She reaches down the corridor of years,
She mourns with grieving mothers of all lands;
Wherever hearts are broken, bathed in tears,
For children’s sins her tragic shadow stands.

Miranda Snow Walton
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Estuarine on January 20, 2014, 05:49:45 PM

Blimey, I wonder what the autopsy found then. >@@(*&)

Judging by the state of the senior police officer who addressed the media at the scene of the discovery of the body I doubt it will be pleasant reading.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Davel on January 20, 2014, 05:52:13 PM
Doesn't have to be intent for murder charge...



Murder is committed when the accused has acted with the intention of killing the victim or where the accused's conduct has been 'wickedly reckless'



Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Serendipity on January 20, 2014, 05:52:39 PM
@Vixte


http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2004/12/20339/47561#7

Its possible it may be reduced to culpable homicide, which is without intent.

See 3.7


All depends on all the evidence, which we dont know about, very sad
The definition of 'wickedly reckless' could very well include leaving him alone and an accident happening or maybe not seeking medical help if the little one showed signs of a serious illness I guess?
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Redblossom on January 20, 2014, 05:54:38 PM
Thanks for the link Red, been trying to find out if possible for the charge to be reduced. The mother in me just cannot comprehend how a mum could intend to kill one of her own.

They do all the the time though for a variety of  reasons...we will have to wait and see whats transpired here...Im thinking why would a murder charge be levied if the evidence they have showed it possible it was an accident and cover up and all those scenarios involving the mother and or any others  where intent was not there...dont really want to think too much about it..but even when a child is deliberately murdered, its not always conscious willful intent, it can be severe psychological circumstances

Eta, just seen your other post,re wicked recklessnes, not sure if that would be interpreted as intent to kill, or not, negligent homicide imo, unless one knew that a lack of getting help would kill them or not being bothered either way......bowing out of this as Im no legal expert?.but on balance it seems like it means not caring if a death would occur/knowing it very possible?
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Serendipity on January 20, 2014, 06:00:41 PM
They do all the the time though for a variety of  reasons...we will have to wait and see whats transpired here...Im thinking why would a murder charge be levied if the evidence they have showed it possible it was an accident and cover up and all those scenarios involving the mother and or any others  where intent was not there...dont really want to think too much about it..but even when a child is deliberately murdered, its not always conscious willful intent, it can be severe psychological circumstances
True, my cousin was killed in 2003 and her killer was originally charged with murder but that was reduced to manslaughter despite evidence of intent. 

This case is so very sad, whatever happened :(
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Davel on January 20, 2014, 06:01:17 PM
They do all the the time though for a variety of  reasons...we will have to wait and see whats transpired here...Im thinking why would a murder charge be levied if the evidence they have showed it possible it was an accident and cover up and all those scenarios involving the mother and or any others  where intent was not there...dont really want to think too much about it..but even when a child is deliberately murdered, its not always conscious willful intent, it can be severe psychological circumstances

Eta, just seen your other post, not sure if that would be interpreted as intent to kill, negligent homicide imo, unless one knew that a lack of getting help would kill them....bowing out of this as Im no legal expert

 there doesn't have to be intent for a murder charge
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: CPN on January 20, 2014, 06:04:47 PM
I am well aware that wiki is not the be all and end all of reference sites:  But wiki says for murder: "Murder is the unlawful killing, with malice aforethought, of another human, and generally this premeditated state of mind distinguishes murder from other forms of unlawful homicide (such as manslaughter)."
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Serendipity on January 20, 2014, 06:09:55 PM
They do all the the time though for a variety of  reasons...we will have to wait and see whats transpired here...Im thinking why would a murder charge be levied if the evidence they have showed it possible it was an accident and cover up and all those scenarios involving the mother and or any others  where intent was not there...dont really want to think too much about it..but even when a child is deliberately murdered, its not always conscious willful intent, it can be severe psychological circumstances

Eta, just seen your other post,re wicked recklessnes, not sure if that would be interpreted as intent to kill, negligent homicide imo, unless one knew that a lack of getting help would kill them or not being bothered either way......bowing out of this as Im no legal expert
Nor I hon, I'm  sure it'll all come out in the wash once in open court. I just  hope he didn't suffer. I'm not going to be commenting much about the case from now on either to be honest as don't want to risk subjudice in any way.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Davel on January 20, 2014, 06:13:46 PM
I am well aware that wiki is not the be all and end all of reference sites:  But wiki says for murder: "Murder is the unlawful killing, with malice aforethought, of another human, and generally this premeditated state of mind distinguishes murder from other forms of unlawful homicide (such as manslaughter)."

wiki isn't the be all and end all of reference sites
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on January 20, 2014, 06:15:11 PM
Judging by the state of the senior police officer who addressed the media at the scene of the discovery of the body I doubt it will be pleasant reading.

I was just thinking that, Estuarine.

The expression on his face was beyond upset. He was obviously profoundly angry and disgusted by something.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: CPN on January 20, 2014, 06:18:42 PM
wiki isn't the be all and end all of reference sites

And that is exactly what I said.   Please leave "getting at each other" comments out of this.   I shall not answer anything like that again.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Redblossom on January 20, 2014, 06:19:59 PM
True, my cousin was killed in 2003 and her killer was originally charged with murder but that was reduced to manslaughter despite evidence of intent. 

This case is so very sad, whatever happened :(

Sorry to hear that.Well that confuses matters, the legal world! Unsure of what sub judice is really and who it relates to, I thought it concerned juries and witnesses. Agree, just a very tragic story for all concerned.


Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Davel on January 20, 2014, 06:22:50 PM
And that is exactly what I said.   Please leave "getting at each other" comments out of this.   I shall not answer anything like that again.

im making  a point of fact...the statement from wiki is useless...we are looking specifically at Scottish law where murder does not have to have intent...the scottish govt website gives a definition of murder as per Scottish law

Murder is committed when the accused has acted with the intention of killing the victim or where the accused's conduct has been 'wickedly reckless'
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: VIXTE on January 20, 2014, 06:23:32 PM
Her face is now blurred in the all of the papers..  >@@(*&)
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Davel on January 20, 2014, 06:25:04 PM
the FACT is we are non the wiser..it could still be an accidental death with an element of wicked recklessness
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 20, 2014, 06:32:02 PM
The expression on his face was beyond upset. He was obviously profoundly angry and disgusted by something.
The simple fact of having found the little body (possibly in advanced decomposition state) after searching an alive little boy and hoping to find him during so many hours explains the police officer's face.
The autopsy without ambiguity revealed Mikaeel's death wasn't natural. His mother (who anyhow is guilty of cheating the police) might have refused to talk to protect someone and hence was charged.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on January 20, 2014, 06:32:30 PM
Her face is now blurred in the all of the papers..  >@@(*&)

Illegal under Scottish Law to show the face at this point. The press can be sued.

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/UK_media_apparently_conflict_with_Scots_law_in_Mikaeel_Kular_case
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: CPN on January 20, 2014, 06:35:25 PM
The simple fact of having found the little body (possibly in advanced decomposition state) after searching an alive little boy and hoping to find him during so many hours explains the police officer's face.
The autopsy without ambiguity revealed Mikaeel's death wasn't natural. His mother (who anyhow is guilty of cheating the police) might have refused to talk to protect someone and hence was charged.

which is why the parents taking their children on the search was not appropriate - I was surprised the police did not stop that
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Carana on January 20, 2014, 06:36:58 PM
@Vixte


http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2004/12/20339/47561#7

Its possible it may be reduced to culpable homicide, which is without intent.

See 3.7


All depends on all the evidence, which we dont know about, very sad

Thanks for finding that, Red. I really wasn't expecting a murder charge.

Based on 3.8, I'm wondering if they went for the highest possible charge in the first instance pending the next phase, i.e., they may not have all the forensics / autopsy in yet and they only had 12 hours + the 12 hours extension to question her and decide to arrest and lay charges or not.



3.8 After a decision to prosecute is made

If an accused is to be prosecuted, they will be given a formal document called a petition that tells them what initial charge they will face. They will then appear in court in private ( see section 4.2 for more details). At that stage, the PF will begin their detailed investigation (called the precognition).

The purpose of precognition is for the PF to examine all the available evidence and obtain any more evidence that is needed. This could include forensic or medical evidence which supports the case. The PF will interview important witnesses, and ensure that all the investigation that needs to be done is completed. You may be interviewed so that a precognition (statement) may be taken from you.

The PF makes recommendations to Crown Counsel about whether there should be criminal charges and what they should be. Before making these recommendations, the PF will have considered the law, the evidence and whether it is in the public interest to prosecute. This means the crime has to be recognised in Scots Law. There also has to be enough reliable and credible evidence that the crime was committed and that the accused was responsible.

Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Redblossom on January 20, 2014, 06:37:49 PM
Illegal under Scottish Law to show the face at this point. The press can be sued.

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/UK_media_apparently_conflict_with_Scots_law_in_Mikaeel_Kular_case

Bit pointless now though isnt it....
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on January 20, 2014, 06:40:27 PM
which is why the parents taking their children on the search was not appropriate - I was surprised the police did not stop that

Very interesting point. Surely the police must have realised early on that her story didn't make sense and that Mikaeel could have been missing for much longer; that there was a good chance, sadly, of not finding him alive.

Hypothermia would probably have got the better of him, even if he had only been missing for a short time.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on January 20, 2014, 06:41:26 PM
Bit pointless now though isnt it....

It is now, though theoretically the papers can be sued for publishing her name and picture last week.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Eleanor on January 20, 2014, 06:41:53 PM
Bit pointless now though isnt it....

Isn't it just.  Now what was her name?
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: VIXTE on January 20, 2014, 06:42:49 PM
The simple fact of having found the little body (possibly in advanced decomposition state) after searching an alive little boy and hoping to find him during so many hours explains the police officer's face.
The autopsy without ambiguity revealed Mikaeel's death wasn't natural. His mother (who anyhow is guilty of cheating the police) might have refused to talk to protect someone and hence was charged.

She was posting on instagram on the 14th and reported him missing on the morning of 16th.. I don't think he was in decomposed state..
IMO whatever happened was in between the night on 14th and the morning of 16th. But I agree with everything else..
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Carana on January 20, 2014, 06:46:44 PM
For the sake of the family and her right to a fair trial, being charged doesn't mean that she's been found guilty. The public won't find out what evidence there is until the trial. The investigation has gone so fast, and however much I find that they did their utmost to try to find the child, there's always the possibility that they've jumped the gun in terms of what actually happened.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: VIXTE on January 20, 2014, 06:48:01 PM
Actually her google searches for the 14th, 15th and 16th would reveal her state of mind.
Technology would help a lot in this case too.
If she for example not answering her questions but keeping quiet then her technology fingerprint would help
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Cariad on January 20, 2014, 06:50:20 PM
I was watching the charges read out live on the beeb and some guy in the background shouted 'hang the b*tch'. She's going to have a hard time getting a fair trial considering the coverage. I realise that she instigated that by reporting Mikaeel missing, but I wonder what impact that will have on the procedure?

Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on January 20, 2014, 06:51:43 PM
Well here's where she is now:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HM_Prison_Cornton_Vale

http://news.stv.tv/west-central/153161-cornton-vale-prison-overcrowded-cold-meals-and-a-two-hour-wait-for-the-toilet/


A notoriously 'bad' prison.

I lived not so far away from here my very early years, and the very mention of the name 'Cornton Vale' and rumours of conditions would instill trepidation in children.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on January 20, 2014, 06:55:45 PM
She was posting on instagram on the 14th and reported him missing on the morning of 16th.. I don't think he was in decomposed state..
IMO whatever happened was in between the night on 14th and the morning of 16th. But I agree with everything else..

Were they pictures of Mikaeel? (Sorry, I just can't bear to look at the thing myself).

Could they have been taken before the 14th and only posted then?
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Redblossom on January 20, 2014, 06:56:24 PM
It is now, though theoretically the papers can be sued for publishing her name and picture last week.

Thats the law I suppose, dotting the i'sand crossing the t's...in the main the majority of pictures were around the story as it unfolded, not showing her picture specifically as the named detained and later charged...as I said, whats the point of shutting the door when the horse has bolted.....anyway, not a very important issue now
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Carana on January 20, 2014, 06:57:41 PM
the FACT is we are non the wiser..it could still be an accidental death with an element of wicked recklessness

Yes, I just reread that definition.

I don't if this helps to clarify what "wicked recklessness" means.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/spl/aberdeen/when-murder-can-be-defined-as-an-act-of-wicked-recklessness-1.46347
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Lyall on January 20, 2014, 06:59:39 PM
Were they pictures of Mikaeel? (Sorry, I just can't bear to look at the thing myself).

Could they have been taken before the 14th and only posted then?

No, SH. None of him posted on the 14th.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on January 20, 2014, 07:00:48 PM
No, SH. None of him posted on the 14th.

OK, thanks Lyall.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Redblossom on January 20, 2014, 07:00:59 PM
She was posting on instagram on the 14th and reported him missing on the morning of 16th.. I don't think he was in decomposed state..
IMO whatever happened was in between the night on 14th and the morning of 16th. But I agree with everything else..

A neighbour saw the boy playing on the Monday at the flats where he lived....a neighbour of the mums sister who lived right across her bungalow in Fife where he was found said she saw the mum drive up there either on the Tuesday or Wednesday morning, I tend towards, based on those, as not having been dead a long time (that last part presumng the mum drove there with the boy)
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Carana on January 20, 2014, 07:01:41 PM
Thats the law I suppose, dotting the i'sand crossing the t's...in the main the majority of pictures were around the story as it unfolded, not showing her picture specifically as the named detained and later charged...as I said, whats the point of shutting the door when the horse has bolted.....anyway, not a very important issue now

What I don't understand is why the police give the age of the person... it's a giveaway if there's only one person of that age connected to a case.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Cariad on January 20, 2014, 07:05:03 PM
Yes, I just reread that definition.

I don't if this helps to clarify what "wicked recklessness" means.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/spl/aberdeen/when-murder-can-be-defined-as-an-act-of-wicked-recklessness-1.46347

If that's the case, it could still include something like leaving drugs in reach of a child or something? There'd be no intent to kill, but death would still occur because of a 'wickedly reckless' action.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Carana on January 20, 2014, 07:06:45 PM
I was watching the charges read out live on the beeb and some guy in the background shouted 'hang the b*tch'. She's going to have a hard time getting a fair trial considering the coverage. I realise that she instigated that by reporting Mikaeel missing, but I wonder what impact that will have on the procedure?

From what I've read, in the US they have questionnaires for jury selection and on occasion they have moved trials elsewhere, supposedly to avoid bias, but I don't see how that works in the Internet age.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Carana on January 20, 2014, 07:09:12 PM
If that's the case, it could still include something like leaving drugs in reach of a child or something? There'd be no intent to kill, but death would still occur because of a 'wickedly reckless' action.

I think that that was what Davel was trying to point out, and that could, in effect, be a possibility.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Cariad on January 20, 2014, 07:12:58 PM
I think that that was what Davel was trying to point out, and that could, in effect, be a possibility.

I hope for the sake of the family (and of course Mikaeel himself) that it'll be something like that.

Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Carana on January 20, 2014, 07:37:49 PM
I hope for the sake of the family (and of course Mikaeel himself) that it'll be something like that.

It might also explain why the body was placed closed to where they had lived... It might all boil down to a stupid and tragic mistake. Alternatively, it might turn out that the police have got it wrong for some reason.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: VIXTE on January 20, 2014, 07:46:33 PM
OK, thanks Lyall.

On the 14th she posted a very strange inspiration note.. something like 'until your last breath you have a chance of a good life'
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on January 20, 2014, 07:47:08 PM
On the 14th she posted a very strange inspiration note.. something like 'until your last breath you have a chance of a good life'

Oh my...

Just can't read it
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: John on January 20, 2014, 07:48:00 PM
Apologies if this has already been answered, some members are assuming that a charge of murder automatically means that there is evidence to support it.  This is not the case.

The Scottish prosecutors routinely inflate the charge so that it can be reduced if the defendant agrees a plea deal.  In this case the charge could very well be reduced to manslaughter if she pleads guilty.  At the end of the day it is all about cutting court time and thus saving money all round.  Needless to say if she pleads not guilty and is found guilty she will get hammered!

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: VIXTE on January 20, 2014, 07:55:50 PM
Apologies if this has already been answered, some members are assuming that a charge of murder automatically means that there is evidence to support it.  This is not the case.

The Scottish prosecutors routinely inflate the charge so that it can be reduced if the defendant agrees a plea deal.  In this case the charge could very well be reduced to manslaughter if she pleads guilty.  At the end of the day is all about cutting court time and thus saving money all round.  Needless to say if she pleads not guilty and is found guilty she will get hammered!

Hope this helps.

Thank you so much.
Do you think the coroner has already established the cause of death and when do you think this would be known in public, if ever?
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: John on January 20, 2014, 07:59:00 PM
From what I've read, in the US they have questionnaires for jury selection and on occasion they have moved trials elsewhere, supposedly to avoid bias, but I don't see how that works in the Internet age.

Her defence counsel will seek permission to have the trial (if there is one) moved to another city like Glasgow or Aberdeen.  It happens all the time in Scotland, I have no doubt any trial will not be held in Edinburgh.

One other thought.  Given the charge I am surprised that Sheriff Crowe didn't refer the case up to the High Court, that in itself could be a sign that the charge is inflated.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Redblossom on January 20, 2014, 08:14:16 PM
On the 14th she posted a very strange inspiration note.. something like 'until your last breath you have a chance of a good life'
if it referred to anyone and wasnt a blanket inspirational quote could refer to her, she posted another about things always happening at once and life testing you...neither to do with her son if thats what you were suggesting imo
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: VIXTE on January 20, 2014, 08:17:36 PM
if it referred to anyone and wasnt a blanket inspirational quote could refer to her, she posted another about things always happening at once and life testing you...neither to do with her son if thats what you were suggesting imo

No, I wasn't suggesting anything except that I don't think she would be posting this if she's just killed her son.

I think whatever happened, happened the day after, on the 15th
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: John on January 20, 2014, 08:20:16 PM
I was just about to reply to Eleanor's post when it was whooshed...

The Scottish system is very different from that in England yet we are all subject to the same Parliament in Westminster, pay the same taxes and are ruled by the same Queen.  The whole thing is a farce basically.  Most people convicted in Scotland on simple majority verdicts would not have been convicted if tried in England.  That's justice for you!  Personally I call it discrimination.



Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Redblossom on January 20, 2014, 08:25:38 PM
No, I wasn't suggesting anything except that I don't think she would be posting this if she's just killed her son.

I think whatever happened, happened the day after, on the 15th

OK thanks for explaining
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Carana on January 20, 2014, 08:25:48 PM
if it referred to anyone and wasnt a blanket inspirational quote could refer to her, she posted another about things always happening at once and life testing you...neither to do with her son if thats what you were suggesting imo

I find them to be just your average inspirational quotes. They seem to come into question due to the tragedy.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Eleanor on January 20, 2014, 08:27:27 PM
I was just about to reply to Eleanor's post when it was whooshed...

The Scottish system is very different from that in England yet we are all subject to the same Parliament in Westminster, pay the same taxes and are ruled by the same Queen.  The whole thing is a farce basically.  Most people convicted in Scotland on simple majority verdicts would not have been convicted if tried in England.  That's justice for you!  Personally I call it discrimination.

Yer.  Who done whooshed that then?  I thought it wuz you.  Just goes to show that one should never jump to unfounded conclusions.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Redblossom on January 20, 2014, 08:30:13 PM
I was just about to reply to Eleanor's post when it was whooshed...

The Scottish system is very different from that in England yet we are all subject to the same Parliament in Westminster, pay the same taxes and are ruled by the same Queen.  The whole thing is a farce basically.  Most people convicted in Scotland on simple majority verdicts would not have been convicted if tried in England.  That's justice for you!  Personally I call it discrimination.

When I read about this I was a bit dumbfound....how can a single vote when its just over 50 50 determine guilt or innocence...if I read it right..thats worst than the system of election results!

Majority should really mean majority
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Carana on January 20, 2014, 08:30:28 PM
Apologies if this has already been answered, some members are assuming that a charge of murder automatically means that there is evidence to support it.  This is not the case.

The Scottish prosecutors routinely inflate the charge so that it can be reduced if the defendant agrees a plea deal.  In this case the charge could very well be reduced to manslaughter if she pleads guilty.  At the end of the day it is all about cutting court time and thus saving money all round.  Needless to say if she pleads not guilty and is found guilty she will get hammered!

Hope this helps.

Thanks. I was wondering if that might be the case, particularly in view of the extremely short timeframe to question her and make a decision, and the forensic team that had only just started work... in the pouring rain.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: VIXTE on January 20, 2014, 08:31:08 PM
I find them to be just your average inspirational quotes. They seem to come into question due to the tragedy.

But the point is that she was posting them at the times when some people say her boy was already lying dead in the woods.

I am saying for me this would be hard to believe.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Carana on January 20, 2014, 08:36:00 PM
Her defence counsel will seek permission to have the trial (if there is one) moved to another city like Glasgow or Aberdeen.  It happens all the time in Scotland, I have no doubt any trial will not be held in Edinburgh.

One other thought.  Given the charge I am surprised that Sheriff Crowe didn't refer the case up to the High Court, that in itself could be a sign that the charge is inflated.

How would that ensure an unbiased jury in the Internet age? I do get the impression that such procedures are still in the dinosaur age when media coverage was limited to the local (printed) rag.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Carana on January 20, 2014, 08:38:22 PM
But the point is that she was posting them at the times when some people say her boy was already lying dead in the woods.

I am saying for me this would be hard to believe.

Yes, I understand what you mean. It doesn't make sense to me, either.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Redblossom on January 20, 2014, 08:41:27 PM
But the point is that she was posting them at the times when some people say her boy was already lying dead in the woods.

I am saying for me this would be hard to believe.

She might have been......we dont know...her sisters neighbour said she saw her drive there either Tuesday 14th or Wednesday 15th morning...if something tragic happened she might well have posted online, she wasnt a stranger to it......anyway enough speculation.....
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: John on January 20, 2014, 08:41:41 PM
As British citizens and in fact, as European citizens of the same State (the UK), we are all entitled to the same justice but it doesn't happen that way.  England, Wales and N Ireland all operate on the same basis whereas Scotland has been allowed to maintain a different system.

I have seen many cases over the years where suspects have had murder charges laid on them simply to scare them into doing a deal and pleading to a lesser charge.

Consider this.  A guilty person will always want to get the best deal possible when there is evidence against him or her.  If they plead guilty to a lesser charge they get a third off their sentence and fast tracked through the system.  An innocent will not plead to something they didn't do.  They will thus fight the full charge and if they lose they will be sentenced to the full term.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: VIXTE on January 20, 2014, 08:43:44 PM
As British citizens and in fact, as European citizens of the same State (the UK), we are all entitled to the same justice but it doesn't happen that way.  England, Wales and N Ireland all operate on the same basis whereas Scotland has been allowed to maintain a different system.

I have seen many cases over the years where suspects have had murder charges laid on them simply to scare them into doing a deal and pleading to a lesser charge.

Consider this.  A guilty person will always want to get the best deal possible when there is evidence against him or her.  If they plead guilty to a lesser charge they get a third off their sentence and fast tracked through the system.  An innocent will not plead to something they didn't do.  They will thus fight the full charge and if they lose they will be sentenced to the full term.

So by this reasoning you think she hasn't done it?
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Redblossom on January 20, 2014, 08:44:49 PM
As British citizens and in fact, as European citizens of the same State (the UK), we are all entitled to the same justice but it doesn't happen that way.  England, Wales and N Ireland all operate on the same basis whereas Scotland has been allowed to maintain a different system.

I have seen many cases over the years where suspects have had murder charges laid on them simply to scare them into doing a deal and pleading to a lesser charge.

Consider this.  A guilty person will always want to get the best deal possible when there is evidence against him or her.  If they plead guilty to a lesser charge they get a third off their sentence and fast tracked through the system.  An innocent will not plead to something they didn't do.  They will thus fight the full charge and if they lose they will be sentenced to the full term.

Thats why the law and half its lawyers are an ASS
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: John on January 20, 2014, 08:56:32 PM
So by this reasoning you think she hasn't done it?

It is early days yet and we haven't got the benefit of the autopsy results.  However, given what we know I would say she was complicit to an extent yet unknown in the death of her son and has certainly attempted to defeat the ends of justice by hiding his remains and faking an abduction.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: John on January 20, 2014, 09:00:57 PM
She might have been......we dont know...her sisters neighbour said she saw her drive there either Tuesday 14th or Wednesday 15th morning...if something tragic happened she might well have posted online, she wasnt a stranger to it......anyway enough speculation.....

A neighbour told me last night that the boy hadn't been seen since 29th December.  No doubt the other children will be interviewed about this.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: John on January 20, 2014, 09:05:05 PM
How would that ensure an unbiased jury in the Internet age? I do get the impression that such procedures are still in the dinosaur age when media coverage was limited to the local (printed) rag.

Its all about trying to get 15 unbiased jurors who have not been subject to local gossip.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Carana on January 20, 2014, 09:10:10 PM
A neighbour told me last night that the boy hadn't been seen since 29th December.  No doubt the other children will be interviewed about this.

A teenager living opposite is fairly sure that she'd seen him a couple of days prior to his reported disappearance.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Carana on January 20, 2014, 09:11:52 PM
Its all about trying to get 15 unbiased jurors who have not been subject to local gossip.

How does one achieve that when Internet gossip is accessible to anyone?
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: CPN on January 20, 2014, 09:14:19 PM
If you look at the mother's Instagram account - http://instagram.com/rosieallgood# here appear to be 2 photos of eth family, including Mikaeel, dated January 1st (which does not mean they were taken on January 1st of course)
(http://instagram.com/p/ipLge5q_Ln/) and (http://instagram.com/p/ipMm9lK_Nm/)  And the photo the papers have been showing - (http://instagram.com/p/ia2P_hq_PA/) is dated 27th December 2013

Whoops! None of the photos have come out!  Well, if you look through you can find them
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Carana on January 20, 2014, 09:17:59 PM
As British citizens and in fact, as European citizens of the same State (the UK), we are all entitled to the same justice but it doesn't happen that way.  England, Wales and N Ireland all operate on the same basis whereas Scotland has been allowed to maintain a different system.

I have seen many cases over the years where suspects have had murder charges laid on them simply to scare them into doing a deal and pleading to a lesser charge.

Consider this.  A guilty person will always want to get the best deal possible when there is evidence against him or her.  If they plead guilty to a lesser charge they get a third off their sentence and fast tracked through the system.  An innocent will not plead to something they didn't do. They will thus fight the full charge and if they lose they will be sentenced to the full term.

Hmmm. I wouldn't be too sure of that.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Carana on January 20, 2014, 09:24:13 PM
If you look at the mother's Instagram account - http://instagram.com/rosieallgood# here appear to be 2 photos of eth family, including Mikaeel, dated January 1st (which does not mean they were taken on January 1st of course)
(http://instagram.com/p/ipLge5q_Ln/) and (http://instagram.com/p/ipMm9lK_Nm/)  And the photo the papers have been showing - (http://instagram.com/p/ia2P_hq_PA/) is dated 27th December 2013

Whoops! None of the photos have come out!  Well, if you look through you can find them

His chocolate face photo was uploaded on 13 Jan (So cute.) The police would be able to work out when the photo was actually taken.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: VIXTE on January 20, 2014, 09:38:29 PM
A neighbour told me last night that the boy hadn't been seen since 29th December.  No doubt the other children will be interviewed about this.

It has been reported that a neighbour who spoke to the police twice has seen Mikaeel alive on Monday
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Cariad on January 20, 2014, 09:41:48 PM
His chocolate face photo was uploaded on 13 Jan (So cute.) The police would be able to work out when the photo was actually taken.

Is that Mikaeel? I thought it was one of the older children?

The comments are horrific. God forbid the other kids look there!
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 20, 2014, 10:36:10 PM
if it referred to anyone and wasnt a blanket inspirational quote could refer to her, she posted another about things always happening at once and life testing you...neither to do with her son if thats what you were suggesting imo
Sure.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 20, 2014, 10:37:39 PM
Is that Mikaeel? I thought it was one of the older children?

The comments are horrific. God forbid the other kids look there!
That's the result of giving the name.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 20, 2014, 10:40:09 PM
How does one achieve that when Internet gossip is accessible to anyone?
Anyone ? How ?
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Carana on January 20, 2014, 10:47:52 PM
Is that Mikaeel? I thought it was one of the older children?

The comments are horrific. God forbid the other kids look there!

Not sure if it's him or not, now that you mention it.

Yes, many of the comments are foul. The usual knee-jerk lynchmob reaction of people who don't seem to be able to step back and wait for facts.

How will jury members actually be selected?
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Lyall on January 20, 2014, 11:59:25 PM
How does one achieve that when Internet gossip is accessible to anyone?

There's no problem with jury selection because there has been no public discussion of any of the evidence in the case.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Carana on January 21, 2014, 12:25:19 AM
There's no problem with jury selection because there has been no public discussion of any of the evidence in the case.

I agree, however people in Scotland and beyond were gripped by the case and the defendant has not only been named, but some outlets have gone beyond that.

My basic question is: if the media have aroused your emotions about the case and against the person charged, how easy is it to then stand back and be objective if you are selected for a jury?

My question goes beyond this particular case, I'm wondering about the issue in general.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Lyall on January 21, 2014, 01:10:47 AM
I agree, however people in Scotland and beyond were gripped by the case and the defendant has not only been named, but some outlets have gone beyond that.

My basic question is: if the media have aroused your emotions about the case and against the person charged, how easy is it to then stand back and be objective if you are selected for a jury?

My question goes beyond this particular case, I'm wondering about the issue in general.

Would it be difficult for you? It wouldn't for me, and as the proportion of the population who obsess about cases on the internet is still very small I don't think it would be for most people.

But once a trial starts, especially in high-profile cases, there is then the additional problem of jurors being influenced by the public mood. Maybe that's the bigger problem?
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on January 21, 2014, 03:02:23 AM
It has been reported that a neighbour who spoke to the police twice has seen Mikaeel alive on Monday

Only one person, as far as it seems at this point, reports having seen him recently. That was a 17 year old girl living opposite the flat. She has been interviewed twice by police and believes she saw him on Monday.

No-one else in the area remembers seeing him for some time.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: colombosstogey on January 21, 2014, 06:18:20 AM
No, I wasn't suggesting anything except that I don't think she would be posting this if she's just killed her son.

I think whatever happened, happened the day after, on the 15th

Your making an assumption SHE POSTED IT....anyone could have posted it who knew her log in.....or did it for her................................
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: VIXTE on January 21, 2014, 08:27:52 AM
Only one person, as far as it seems at this point, reports having seen him recently. That was a 17 year old girl living opposite the flat. She has been interviewed twice by police and believes she saw him on Monday.

No-one else in the area remembers seeing him for some time.

The BBC  reported that police is asking for witnesses who saw either Mikaeel or his mum between Monday and Wednesday.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: John on January 21, 2014, 09:44:30 AM
Not sure if it's him or not, now that you mention it.

Yes, many of the comments are foul. The usual knee-jerk lynchmob reaction of people who don't seem to be able to step back and wait for facts.

How will jury members actually be selected?


Jury Selection.

A group of about 30 or more potential jurors are selected randomly and instructed to turn up at Court for jury service.  As you know fifteen jurors are required for a trial in Scotland.   At the start of the trial everyone including the defendant, defence counsel, the prosecutor and the judge are gathered in Court.  The court clerk who sits just below the judge puts the names (written on little pieces of paper) of all the jurors in  a container and then proceeds to draw out and announce names one at a time.  When a name is called that person comes forward and takes their seat in the jury box.  This continues until all 15 places are filled. Jurors who have knowledge of the defendant or his family or who are unable to sit through an extended trial for any reason or who feel compromised are excused.  At the end the jury is asked to select a spokesperson or foreman, this in many cases ends up being juror number 15.  When the process is concluded the remaining potential jurors are excused.  The judge then welcomes the jury members and swears them in.  The trial can then commence.

Jury members are told not to discuss the case outside the court and not to read any media reports relating to the proceedings.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 21, 2014, 01:16:51 PM

Jury Selection.

A group of about 30 or more potential jurors are selected randomly and instructed to turn up at Court for jury service.  As you know fifteen jurors are required for a trial in Scotland.   At the start of the trial everyone including the defendant, defence counsel, the prosecutor and the judge are gathered in Court.  The court clerk who sits just below the judge puts the names (written on little pieces of paper) of all the jurors in  a container and then proceeds to draw out and announce names one at a time.  When a name is called that person comes forward and takes their seat in the jury box.  This continues until all 15 places are filled. Jurors who have knowledge of the defendant or his family or who are unable to sit through an extended trial for any reason or who feel compromised are excused.  At the end the jury is asked to select a spokesperson or foreman, this in many cases ends up being juror number 15.  When the process is concluded the remaining potential jurors are excused.  The judge then welcomes the jury members and swears them in.  The trial can then commence.

Jury members are told not to discuss the case outside the court and not to read any media reports relating to the proceedings.
The room left to chance in this selection is appalling.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on January 21, 2014, 06:19:18 PM
This set-up is not dissimilar to the English system, where lots or cards bearing potential jurors' names are shuffled and selected.

The main difference is the number of people on the jury, with the controversial 15 person jury in Scotland.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: John on January 21, 2014, 07:16:57 PM
The room left to chance in this selection is appalling.

That's exactly what justice in Scotland amounts to Anne...a lottery!
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Davel on January 21, 2014, 07:25:59 PM
The room left to chance in this selection is appalling.

yes ..much better to beat a confession out of the suspect and find them guilty...this jury system is used throughout the civilised world...The UK ...the USA ..it is not appalling
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 21, 2014, 07:29:26 PM
That's exactly what justice in Scotland amounts to Anne...a lottery!
The lottery aspect can't be totally evacuated(what if the president learnt his wife has a lover in the morning of the hearing ? What if the prosecutor has stomach pain ?)but it should be reduced as much as possible through a package of measures.
Professional jurors aren't a solution as well. And it's a good principle that the people are represented.
That makes a very interesting debate for sure.



Moderator's note: No alterations - selected ' modify' in error ( instead of 'quote'). SH
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 21, 2014, 07:30:40 PM
yes ..much better to beat a confession out of the suspect and find them guilty...this jury system is used throughout the civilised world...The UK ...the USA ..it is not appalling
@)(++(*
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Redblossom on January 21, 2014, 07:45:39 PM
@)(++(*

Guantanamo bay is such an inspiration I agree  to all forward thinking democracies
 8((()*/
held without charges or trial indefinitely and kept like animals



As is police! In "civilised countries"  just shooting at will at people with no evidence, or just beating innocent passers by in some demonstration and killing them,  as is the rendition scandal! Etc etc etc

and as IF bullying even if not physical of suspects by police dont go on.......psychological bullying is as destructive to an innocent person

Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Lyall on January 21, 2014, 07:55:35 PM
yes ..much better to beat a confession out of the suspect and find them guilty...this jury system is used throughout the civilised world...The UK ...the USA ..it is not appalling

Are you really giving the US justice system the big thumbs up when coerced plea bargaining is such a big factor there? >@@(*&)

It probably increasingly is here too.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Davel on January 21, 2014, 08:00:12 PM
Guantanamo bay is such an inspiration I agree  to all forward thinking democracies
 8((()*/
held without charges or trial indefinitely and kept like animals



As is police! In "civilised countries"  just shooting at will at people with no evidence, or just beating innocent passers by in some demonstration and killing them,  as is the rendition scandal! Etc etc etc

and as IF bullying even if not physical of suspects by police dont go on.......psycholigical bullying is as destructive to an innocent person

 you can all criticise but can you come up with a better system...If you were to be tried for a crime..which country would you choose.. I think the uk is pretty good
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Redblossom on January 21, 2014, 08:01:26 PM
Are you really giving the US justice system the big thumbs up when coerced plea bargaining is such a big factor there? >@@(*&)

It probably increasingly is here too.

I watched many a law and order and was shocked!

The US has a very harsh system.....
but some so totally guilty feckers evade justice nonetheless.....
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Lyall on January 21, 2014, 08:09:48 PM
you can all criticise but can you come up with a better system...If you were to be tried for a crime..which country would you choose.. I think the uk is pretty good

Probably money isn't as big a factor here (I hope that's not naive - I know legal aid rules are being changed). But we know money definitely rules in the US.

So I'd say whichever country where you can be well represented with being a millionaire ?>)()<
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Lyall on January 21, 2014, 08:14:41 PM
I watched many a law and order and was shocked!

The US has a very harsh system.....
but some so totally guilty feckers evade justice nonetheless.....

Is Law and Order the one with William Shatner in it? 8(>((
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Davel on January 21, 2014, 08:17:26 PM
Probably money isn't as big a factor here (I hope that's not naive - I know legal aid rules are being changed). But we know money definitely rules in the US.

So I'd say whichever country where you can be well represented with being a millionaire ?>)()<

you haven't answered the question..which country would that be
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Redblossom on January 21, 2014, 08:17:31 PM
Is Law and Order the one with William Shatner in it? 8(>((

Nooo

Sam Waterston

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=law+and+orr&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari#hl=en&q=law+and+order
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Lyall on January 21, 2014, 08:23:02 PM
you haven't answered the question..which country would that be

I don't know enough about the systems in the rest of Europe to be honest >@@(*&)
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Davel on January 21, 2014, 08:25:08 PM
I don't know enough about the systems in the rest of Europe to be honest >@@(*&)

then how can you criticise the UK
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Lyall on January 21, 2014, 08:29:32 PM
then how can you criticise the UK

Of course you can. It's very far from perfect.

Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Redblossom on January 21, 2014, 08:36:28 PM
Of course you can. It's very far from perfect.

So is Portugal, but  the  ignorant uneducated and pathetic inference made on this thread was that Portugal wasnt  a civilised country must count for hilarious post of the day

That will keep even the monkeys laughng at the zoo! Pmsl

 @)(++(*


Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Davel on January 21, 2014, 08:58:55 PM
So is Portugal, but  the  ignorant uneducated and pathetic inference made on this thread was that Portugal wasnt  a civilised country must count for hilarious post of the day

That will keep even the monkeys laughng at the zoo! Pmsl

 @)(++(*

you only have to look at the libel trial to see what a shambles the portuguese courts are


so for AG to criticise   a proper justice sysem...and lyall STILL hasnt come up with a better one,...can you
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Lyall on January 21, 2014, 09:08:10 PM
Nooo

Sam Waterston

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=law+and+orr&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari#hl=en&q=law+and+order

I knew that really 8()-000(
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Davel on January 21, 2014, 09:10:41 PM
and lyall still hasnt come up with a better one and neither has red
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Lyall on January 21, 2014, 09:12:06 PM
and lyall still hasnt come up with a better one and neither has red

We admit we aren't experts on European law and if you're being honest neither are you. So how can the question be answered?
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Redblossom on January 21, 2014, 09:18:15 PM
I knew that really 8()-000(

I watched shatner and a whole  of other entertainment shows including whats her name from misery....i thought  law and order was a bit different..ie nasty cold  hard b......s ....ok when theyre guilty so NOT ok when they are not ...its them going for the jugular of maximum sentences as if they get off on it for anything



Oooh so off topic best stop
 @)(++(*
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on January 21, 2014, 09:38:39 PM
The lottery aspect can't be totally evacuated(what if the president learnt his wife has a lover in the morning of the hearing ? What if the prosecutor has stomach pain ?but it should be reduced as much as possible through a package of measures.
Professional jurors aren't a solution as well. And it's a good principle that the people are represented.
That makes a very interesting debate for sure.

That's wonderful, Anne.

We should tailor the jury system according to the proclivities of French presidents.

Vive la Justice Francaise!

(Excuse the ommission - don' t have a French speaking keyboard).
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on January 21, 2014, 09:42:45 PM
I watched many a law and order and was shocked!

The US has a very harsh system.....
but some so totally guilty feckers evade justice nonetheless.....

You are right, Red. I shouldn't be laughing at Anne's post.

It's really dog eat dog over here. The most unequal country on the face of the earth. Some of the things that go on in the name of justice are absolutely mind boggling.

Don't think there is such a thing as a perfect system, though, wherever you look.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 21, 2014, 10:02:03 PM
That's wonderful, Anne.

We should tailor the jury system according to the proclivities of French presidents.

Vive la Justice Francaise!

(Excuse the ommission - don' t have a French speaking keyboard).
Oh I'm sorry ! I didn't mean the president of the republic ! I meant the president of the hearing, I should have called him "judge".
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on January 21, 2014, 10:07:20 PM
you only have to look at the libel trial to see what a shambles the portuguese courts are


so for AG to criticise   a proper justice sysem...and lyall STILL hasnt come up with a better one,...can you

Is it a question of which is better?

There are two distinct systems, Civil Law (based upon Roman Law and developed during the Middle ages throughout most of the European continent where it was applied mainly in the imperial powers such as Portugal and Spain), and Common Law, which developed in England at around the same time and was implanted in America upon its foundation.

Scottish Law has a civil law system and is therefore very similar at root to Portuguese law and the legal systems of much of continental Europe. It also has a number of Norse elements dating from Viking times when the country was invaded by Vikings and many of the Northern provinces belonged to Norway. After the Act of Union, common law became an influence to a certain degree, but the overall system remained entirely distinct from that of England.

Scotland and Portugal are similar therefore in their systems; England is the odd man out in Europe.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on January 21, 2014, 10:14:49 PM
Oh I'm sorry ! I didn't mean the president of the republic ! I meant the president of the hearing, I should have called him "judge".

Oh, I'm sorry too!

I just read an article earlier today on the subject of the incomprehensibility in France of the fact that Gordon Brown does not have a mistress.

This obviously affected my reading of your post!

It makes perfect sense to me now.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 21, 2014, 10:19:31 PM
No problem !
The question of the jurors is very interesting. I've heard of a book written by one of these jurors. Something she said intrigues me : "first this is another world, then you get accustomed to it and the world to which you belong turns into the "other" world.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on January 21, 2014, 10:47:55 PM
No problem !
The question of the jurors is very interesting. I've heard of a book written by one of these jurors. Something she said intrigues me : "first this is another world, then you get accustomed to it and the world to which you belong turns into the "other" world.

You could say the same about a lot of things....
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 21, 2014, 11:32:12 PM
Not really. This is another world because the justice system, its rules, its language are different and specific. But once you've understood how it works (and jurors have a short initiation) you're led to look at things through this evaluation grid.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on January 21, 2014, 11:55:57 PM
Not really. This is another world because the justice system, its rules, its language are different and specific. But once you've understood how it works (and jurors have a short initiation) you're led to look at things through this evaluation grid.

It's like a religion or any thought system. There's a certain language and framework of ideas though which we interpret everything.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Davel on January 22, 2014, 08:06:39 AM
Is it a question of which is better?

There are two distinct systems, Civil Law (based upon Roman Law and developed during the Middle ages throughout most of the European continent where it was applied mainly in the imperial powers such as Portugal and Spain), and Common Law, which developed in England at around the same time and was implanted in America upon its foundation.

Scottish Law has a civil law system and is therefore very similar at root to Portuguese law and the legal systems of much of continental Europe. It also has a number of Norse elements dating from Viking times when the country was invaded by Vikings and many of the Northern provinces belonged to Norway. After the Act of Union, common law became an influence to a certain degree, but the overall system remained entirely distinct from that of England.

Scotland and Portugal are similar therefore in their systems; England is the odd man out in Europe.

 Not really...very few jury trials in Portugal wheras it is the norm in scotland
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on January 22, 2014, 06:10:02 PM
Not really...very few jury trials in Portugal wheras it is the norm in scotland

Many of the details differ - most of the general legal concepts are the same
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 22, 2014, 07:51:45 PM
It's like a religion or any thought system. There's a certain language and framework of ideas though which we interpret everything.
It's not a question of interpreting things, as a juror you have to understand acts, sometimes barbarous, of human beings you would never meet in "real" life.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on January 26, 2014, 09:18:19 PM
RK is due to appear again in front of the Sheriff this Tuesday (January 28th).
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: John on January 26, 2014, 10:56:41 PM
RK is due to appear again in front of the Sheriff this Tuesday (January 28th).

It will be another procedural hearing to establish progress.   I have a feeling the Sheriff will refer the case up to the High Court though as it involves a murder charge.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Eleanor on January 27, 2014, 11:08:33 PM
It will be another procedural hearing to establish progress.   I have a feeling the Sheriff will refer the case up to the High Court though as it involves a murder charge.

Only if they don't reduce it to Culpable Homicide.

Personally, I have no thoughts on that.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Redblossom on January 28, 2014, 05:53:31 PM
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/456603/Mother-of-three-year-old-Mikaeel-Kular-returns-to-court-charged-with-his-murder?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+daily-express-uk-news+(Daily+Express+%3A%3A+UK+Feed)


no plea again.....I guess we will have to wait for the trial to start?
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: CPN on January 28, 2014, 08:45:52 PM
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/456603/Mother-of-three-year-old-Mikaeel-Kular-returns-to-court-charged-with-his-murder?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+daily-express-uk-news+(Daily+Express+%3A%3A+UK+Feed)

no plea again.....I guess we will have to wait for the trial to start?

Also: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2547601/Mother-three-year-old-Mikaeel-Kular-court-second-time-charged-murder.html 
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Redblossom on March 04, 2014, 09:58:40 PM
This is sad. It doesnt go much to makes thngs clearer either as to what happened,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-26433110



Mikaeel Kular: Three-year-old 'died from internal bleeding'

Mikaeel Kular was reported missing from his Edinburgh home in January before being found dead in Fife
Three-year-old Mikaeel Kular died from internal bleeding and peritonitis, according to his death certificate.

Mikaeel's body was found in Fife in January, after he had been reported missing from his Edinburgh home.

The death certificate, which has been released by a registrar in Kirkcaldy, says the youngster died in woodland behind the town's Dunvegan Avenue.

His mother, Rosdeep Kular, 33, has been charged with his murder and is remanded in custody.

She appeared in private at Edinburgh Sheriff Court under her married name of Adekoya, where she made no plea or declaration to the charges. She is also accused of attempting to defeat the ends of justice.

Mikaeel's death certificate - which was signed by his step-grandfather, Mr B Krishnaswamy - said he had been found dead at 04:02 on 18 January.

It gives the cause of death as "peritonitis and intra-abdominal haemorrhage" (pending investigation).

Peritonitis is an inflammation of the peritoneum, the thin lining of the abdomen.

Hundreds of people joined in the search for Mikaeel after he was reported missing from his home in Ferry Gait Crescent, Edinburgh, on 16 January.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: CPN on March 04, 2014, 11:32:19 PM
Strange it says that he died in the woodland where he was found - I don't quite see how they can know that.  A very precise time of death also.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Redblossom on March 04, 2014, 11:53:56 PM
Strange it says that he died in the woodland where he was found - I don't quite see how they can know that.  A very precise time of death also.

Hi CPN, lovely to see you back.
I dont know how they know where he died.Ive watched enough episodes of Silent Witness to see how they can tell from the minutest thing though many things.

But that suggests he was alive there to start off? But then why leave him there?
Maybe it was a reporting error, as in found dead in woodland not died there? The trial will explain all I guess in due time
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: a.baker on March 05, 2014, 01:51:49 AM
Poor little mite. Sounds like he may have been poisoned perhaps? Rat poison for example can cause internal bleeding. Edit. It appears the cause was blunt force trauma to the abdomen.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: CPN on March 05, 2014, 12:45:34 PM
Hi CPN, lovely to see you back.
I dont know how they know where he died.Ive watched enough episodes of Silent Witness to see how they can tell from the minutest thing though many things.

But that suggests he was alive there to start off? But then why leave him there?
Maybe it was a reporting error, as in found dead in woodland not died there? The trial will explain all I guess in due time

Thanks, Redblossom.

I agree; that was the point I was making - if Mikaeel died in the woodlands it implies he was alive there to start with.  It should be an interesting trial - and I do not mean that in a disrespectful way   
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: CPN on March 06, 2014, 02:12:28 PM
Mikaeel Kular's Mum Shown Body Before Funeral

The mother of three-year-old Mikaeel Kular, who is accused of his murder, has been allowed to see his body ahead of his funeral.

Rosdeep Kular was taken under escort from prison to a funeral parlour in Fife to view her son's remains on Tuesday, it has emerged.

However, she did not attend his funeral at Kirkcaldy Crematorium the following day.

The 33 year-old is currently being held on remand at Cornton Vale prison in Stirlingshire.
She has been charged with murdering her son and attempting to defeat the ends of justice.

Mikaeel's body was found in woodland behind a house in  Kirkcaldy on January 18.

His disappearance from his home in Edinburgh had prompted a massive search in which hundreds of local people joined police and other emergency services.

The youngster's death certificate lists his cause of death as "peritonitis and infra-abdominal haemorrhage (pending investigation)".

Peritonitis is the inflammation of the peritoneum, the lining of the stomach.

http://www.lbc.co.uk/mikaeel-kulars-mum-shown-body-before-funeral-87009 Thursday, 6th March 2014 10:58
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: AnneGuedes on March 06, 2014, 11:31:04 PM
Really strange, a peritonitis implies fever and a horrible pain. What is the cause ? Some blunt thing Mikaeel swallowed and perforated his stomach ?
I wonder why did they wait so long to give autopsy results that are "pending investigation".
Hi CPN, miss you !
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on March 07, 2014, 03:54:49 AM
This case is almost too upsetting to contemplate.

I have a little boy who is about to turn three, and I just cannot imagine how a mother could deliberately harm her child.

Many sick people around.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Redblossom on March 07, 2014, 09:29:46 AM
This case is almost too upsetting to contemplate.

I have a little boy who is about to turn three, and I just cannot imagine how a mother could deliberately harm her child.

Many sick people around.

Oh the irony, you KNOW that this mother murdered her child (when we have no facts) but also KNOW that Madeleine was abducted! (when we have no facts)

 >@@(*&)
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on March 07, 2014, 03:17:12 PM
Oh the irony, you KNOW that this mother murdered her child (when we have no facts) but also KNOW that Madeleine was abducted! (when we have no facts)

 >@@(*&)

Rosdeep Kular has been charged with murder. Whether she is truly guilty or not remains to be seen.

As far as Madeleine McCann goes, sadly  I have no idea what happened to her one way or the other, as I have discussed on this forum many times. There is a dearth of known facts regarding her disappearance, therefore it would be meaningless to take too strong a stance at this point.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Anna on March 07, 2014, 03:42:06 PM
The difference between Madeleine and Mikaeel is that his body was found, but before it was, abduction was suspected.
http://news.sky.com/story/1196614/missing-mikaeel-could-not-have-left-alone
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Wonderfulspam on March 07, 2014, 04:52:36 PM
The difference between Madeleine and Mikaeel is that his body was found, but before it was, abduction was suspected.
http://news.sky.com/story/1196614/missing-mikaeel-could-not-have-left-alone

Yes, by one guy...

'John Moses, a former Royal Military Policeman and detective, said the evidence in the case pointed towards a "professional abduction".

He sussed out that the professional abductor would have dressed Mikaeel in his shoes & coat when abducting him.

If I ever have a missing relative, I won't be asking that idiot for help.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Eleanor on July 07, 2014, 08:17:28 PM

Submitted by Pathfinder73.

Mother 'beat Mikaeel Kular over period of four days and murdered him'

STV
 7 July 2014 17:30 BST

A mother who allegedly reported her toddler missing is accused of beating him over a period of four days and murdering him.

Rosdeep Kular is said to have punched her son Mikaeel on the head and body, hit his body against a hard object and caused blunt force trauma injuries to his head and body at the family’s flat in Edinburgh between January 12 and 15 this year.

Thousands of members of the public turned out to help search for the toddler when he was reported missing earlier this year.

The 34-year-old is due to appear for a preliminary hearing at the High Court in Edinburgh on Tuesday.

The indictment shows she is accused of failing to seek medical attention for her three-year-old son and murdering him.

Kular, who is appearing in court under her married name of Rosdeep Adekoya, is then said to have wrapped her son’s body in a duvet cover and stuffed him inside a suitcase.

She is then said to have put him in the boot of her car and driven his body first to his school, Flora Stevenson Primary in Edinburgh, and then to a relative’s home in Dunvegan Avenue, Kirkcaldy.

Kular is then said to have hidden the suitcase under a bush in woodland behind the Fife home.

The mother is then accused of reporting Mikaeel missing from their home in Ferry Gait Crescent on January 16, allegedly saying her son had disappeared from the home. The Crown claim she did this to cover up the toddler’s death.

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/281861-rosdeep-kular-beat-mikaeel-kular-over-a-period-of-four-days/
Modify message
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: colombosstogey on July 08, 2014, 03:34:11 PM
She has been charged with his murder.

What would make a mother do such a thing is beyond me, but it shows these things sadly do happen and will happen again I expect.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Eleanor on July 08, 2014, 03:41:05 PM

Horrific.  That poor little boy.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: colombosstogey on July 09, 2014, 04:41:44 AM
Horrific.  That poor little boy.

Yes Eleanor poor mite, no child deserves that. If it was over 4 days though wouldnt someone have noticed? I was quite upset yesterday when i had her charge and what she did. Such a sad case.
Title: Re: Mikaeel Kular: Mother Rosdeep Kular appears in court on murder charge.
Post by: Eleanor on July 09, 2014, 07:35:53 AM
Yes Eleanor poor mite, no child deserves that. If it was over 4 days though wouldnt someone have noticed? I was quite upset yesterday when i had her charge and what she did. Such a sad case.

I'm hoping she just lost her temper on one occasion and then did nothing about the damage she had done, but just didn't get medical help for him or didn't realise how injured he was.  Maybe left him lying in his bed.

Actually, that doesn't make sense, does it.  Which would be worse?  The actual beating or leaving him to die?

Although I am not sure how much should be said about this for legal reasons at this stage.