Author Topic: What is 'science'  (Read 6640 times)

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Offline G-Unit

What is 'science'
« on: November 19, 2018, 08:05:03 PM »
In her book Kate McCann says she relaxed a little when she watched the video of Grime's dogs. The reason she gave was;

This was not what I would call an exact science [madeleine]

I wonder what she meant? Assuming she understood the different kinds of science, would she know what an exact science is? As a mathematician I think she did, considering they are also called the exact mathematical sciences.

So searching with dogs isn't an exact science, but nether is medicine. It's an applied science.
Then we have 'formal' sciences, which are not sciences in the way exact sciences are.  Statistics is an example of a formal science.

The social sciences include politics and economics. They concentrate on social systems.

Behavioural science studies human behaviour and tries to generalise about all humans or groups. Psychology is a behavioural science.

So when people say cadaver dogs should be, or have been, scientifically tested they are referring to a word with many meanings and standards of proof. Using the word 'science' means nothing concrete in my opinion because it has many meanings. It sounds good, but what does it mean in relation to testing the work of sniffer dogs?

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« Last Edit: November 22, 2018, 11:04:45 PM by Angelo222 »
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Offline Robittybob1

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Re: What is 'science'
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2018, 08:46:54 PM »
I read they are trying to make a machine that will will analyse gas to mimic  a cadaver dog.

I have feeling once they get the machine running they will find that the decision a dog makes before alerting is a lot more complex.

We have a program where they follow intercepts at the border.  They have testing kits for the rapid identification for certain drugs. Even these test kits are unlikely to be 100% accurate.
A cadaver dog is being asked to go one step further in that it is not asked to find a cadaver but a human cadaver.

So what assessment does the dog make?  As I have said before it can't be based on either cadaverine or putrescine alone for cadavers of all species IMO would produce these chemicals.
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Offline jassi

Re: What is 'science'
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2018, 09:01:36 PM »
It will be interesting to see how they manage to calibrate the  instrument.

If it shows positive n the absence of human remains, will it be believed  or will it be claimed to be incredibly unreliable ?  8)-)))
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Online Davel

Re: What is 'science'
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2018, 09:08:06 PM »
I think medicine is more of an exact science  than you think... All drugs are rigourously tested.... Doctors dont just say I've tested this drug myself and it works... Everything is open and supported by data.  The, way the dogs are tested is not open and supported by no data... Its based on opinion...and according to you we cannot question that opinion... Science is based on facts....that can be examined and questioned..
« Last Edit: November 19, 2018, 09:11:24 PM by Davel »
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Offline barrier

Re: What is 'science'
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2018, 09:29:34 PM »
I think medicine is more of an exact science  than you think... All drugs are rigourously tested.... Doctors dont just say I've tested this drug myself and it works... Everything is open and supported by data.  The, way the dogs are tested is not open and supported by no data... Its based on opinion...and according to you we cannot question that opinion... Science is based on facts....that can be examined and questioned..

I'm not sure those that took Thalidomide would agree with your first part.
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Online Davel

Re: What is 'science'
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2018, 09:38:49 PM »
I'm not sure those that took Thalidomide would agree with your first part.

Then you would need to read the scientific papers, which validated thalidomide.... And I'm sure the fault would be found..

Off hand thalidomide was licensed as an antiemetic.. Had it been tested on pregnant women... Obviously  not
Your post supports the need for proper scientific  testing
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Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: What is 'science'
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2018, 09:45:08 PM »
In her book Kate McCann says she relaxed a little when she watched the video of Grime's dogs. The reason she gave was;

This was not what I would call an exact science [madeleine]

I wonder what she meant? Assuming she understood the different kinds of science, would she know what an exact science is? As a mathematician I think she did, considering they are also called the exact mathematical sciences.

So searching with dogs isn't an exact science, but nether is medicine. It's an applied science.
Then we have 'formal' sciences, which are not sciences in the way exact sciences are.  Statistics is an example of a formal science.

The social sciences include politics and economics. They concentrate on social systems.

Behavioural science studies human behaviour and tries to generalise about all humans or groups. Psychology is a behavioural science.

So when people say cadaver dogs should be, or have been, scientifically tested they are referring to a word with many meanings and standards of proof. Using the word 'science' means nothing concrete in my opinion because it has many meanings. It sounds good, but what does it mean in relation to testing the work of sniffer dogs?
Itís a turn of phrase isnít it?  To describe something that clearly is open to interpretation and unverifiable.
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Offline slartibartfast

Re: What is 'science'
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2018, 10:22:30 PM »
I think medicine is more of an exact science  than you think... All drugs are rigourously tested.... Doctors dont just say I've tested this drug myself and it works... Everything is open and supported by data.  The, way the dogs are tested is not open and supported by no data... Its based on opinion...and according to you we cannot question that opinion... Science is based on facts....that can be examined and questioned..

Drugs are statistically tested, not proved to work as designed.
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Online Davel

Re: What is 'science'
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2018, 10:47:24 PM »
Drugs are statistically tested, not proved to work as designed.
They are statistically tested to prove they work... You cannot contradict that
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Offline G-Unit

Re: What is 'science'
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2018, 10:49:17 PM »
I think medicine is more of an exact science  than you think... All drugs are rigourously tested.... Doctors dont just say I've tested this drug myself and it works... Everything is open and supported by data.  The, way the dogs are tested is not open and supported by no data... Its based on opinion...and according to you we cannot question that opinion... Science is based on facts....that can be examined and questioned..

Unless you can present a case by using cites, your opinion isn't actually relevant. This is another study from NCBI, where the dog handlers were tested;

Medicine, however, is not an exact science. It is an applied science, and its practice is an art.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3190445/

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Online Davel

Re: What is 'science'
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2018, 10:52:16 PM »
Unless you can present a case by using cites, your opinion isn't actually relevant. This is another study from NCBI, where the dog handlers were tested;

Medicine, however, is not an exact science. It is an applied science, and its practice is an art.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3190445/

Medicine is a science backed by statistical proof
UNLESS OTHERWISE STATED ALL POSTS ARE MY OPINION

Offline Robittybob1

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Re: What is 'science'
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2018, 10:52:32 PM »
They are statistically tested to prove they work...
The focus could be too narrow in that they miss side effects.  But you would think a drug being used to control morning sickness would be checked that it didn't cause fetal defects.
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Offline Robittybob1

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Re: What is 'science'
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2018, 10:55:18 PM »
Unless you can present a case by using cites, your opinion isn't actually relevant. This is another study from NCBI, where the dog handlers were tested;

Medicine, however, is not an exact science. It is an applied science, and its practice is an art.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3190445/
What was the point of linking to that article? 
What are you doing to find Madeleine?

Online Davel

Re: What is 'science'
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2018, 10:59:32 PM »
The focus could be too narrow in that they miss side effects.  But you would think a drug being used to control morning sickness would be checked that it didn't cause fetal defects.

The drug was tested extensively on animals where it didn't cause defects
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Offline Robittybob1

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Re: What is 'science'
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2018, 11:02:14 PM »
The drug was tested extensively on animals where it didn't cause defects
OK 
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