Author Topic: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?  (Read 9108 times)

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Offline Brietta

Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2019, 12:09:39 PM »
I have offered an explanation but you are determined to see it as a failure, despite not knowing if it would have shown anything of use or not. The point I was making was that the McCann case had more in common with UK police investigations in years gone by. It had nothing in common with those investigations as they are carried out today. Therefore investigating it as if it had happened in the UK was impossible without adding 'years ago'.

There is little which connects the conduct of Madeleine's case with even the Gene Hunt era in British policing and if you don't think failure to check one of the very few CCTV cameras in Luz is an investigative failure that is your prerogative.
The remit of Operation Grange is to investigate ...  "(as if the abduction occurred in the UK)"

Offline Davel

Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2019, 12:17:17 PM »
I didn't watch the programme but read a review.... Which said Sutton was given Belfields name by a member of the public... I wonder how many crimes are solved due to information from the public.... Something that is unlikely ti happen in Portugal due to the perception of the public
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 02:00:34 PM by Davel »
mods can delete posts but...
The moving finger writes and having writ moves on...
nor all thy piety nor wit can lure me back to alter but  a line..nor all thy tears wash away  a word of it

Offline Brietta

Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2019, 12:27:57 PM »
I didn't watch the programme but read a review.... Which sain Sutton was given Belfields name by a member of the public... I wonder how many crimes are solved due to information from the public.... Something that is unlikely ti happen in Portugal due to the perception of the public

Such was the distrust of the police recognised by Jenny Murat who set up her information stall to combat it.
The remit of Operation Grange is to investigate ...  "(as if the abduction occurred in the UK)"

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2019, 05:25:21 PM »
Having watched the first episode of Manhunt Sutton comes across as a calm, quiet and amenable character, but there are moments when his determination shows. It was interesting to see how many things a lead detective has to juggle as an investigation progresses; superiors, inferiors, the public. At the same time he/she has to move things along in the right direction.

One interesting snippet was Sutton's wife suggesting he used a stand alone database rather than HOLMES. He did, and admitted that it was quicker, whatever that meant.

The UK police rely heavily on CCTV and mobile phone technology. In this case it helps them considerably. Without it their jobs are much harder. I thought of the Moors murders which were only solved by an informer coming forward because there was no CCTV in those days allowing tracking of the victims and perpetrators.

The Madeleine McCann case offered little in the way of technological evidence so the UK police's expertise in that area hasn't helped. When OG's remit said they were going to investigate the case as if it happened in the UK, they seem to have thought that modern methods would help, but without technological evidence that wasn't possible.
My thoughts on watching the first episode (with the caveat that it is not a documentary and therefore subject to artistic license) were: if only Colin Sutton had been in charge of the investigation in Pdl in the very beginning, he might have secured some valuable cctv footage that the PJ never thought to retrieve until it was too late.
"The answer is that no-one here believes the parents were directly involved in MM's disappearance" - G-Unit.

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2019, 05:27:16 PM »
Clunes and Sutton. Sutton reminding us that he's written a book about it.. It seems the point was to try to show how the police really work rather than glamourising it as many dramas do. Sutton emphasised the importance of teamwork and that the SIO needs to get the best from the team.
Yes, it was quite unglamorous and therefore also quite dull as an episode, IMO.
"The answer is that no-one here believes the parents were directly involved in MM's disappearance" - G-Unit.

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2019, 05:29:11 PM »
I'm not sure if you and I watched the same film.  I must admit I was a bit amazed at the emphasis on Sutton's inexperience which made me wonder a bit about prior and subsequent achievements.
The size of the team was impressive enabling the presence of surveillance technology to be fully investigated to prove its worth ... and only thinking outside the box enabled the connection to Milly Dowler three years down the line making one wonder what Bellfield and cohorts might be involved in that we'll never know about.
Yes Sutton was open to the possibility of a link to other crimes in the area, unlike the PJ who seemed unwilling to countenance it at all, re: the MM case.
"The answer is that no-one here believes the parents were directly involved in MM's disappearance" - G-Unit.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2019, 09:44:57 PM »
I didn't watch the programme but read a review.... Which said Sutton was given Belfields name by a member of the public... I wonder how many crimes are solved due to information from the public.... Something that is unlikely ti happen in Portugal due to the perception of the public

A statement was given by one of Bellfield's ex'. It was mentioned to Sutton by the PC who took the statement. He was already homing in on Bellfield's van, but the statement gave him a name and a connection to the murder weapon too.

Now they can see that Bellfield moved around and lived near where other murders took place. He was a 15 second walk from where Milly Dowler was last seen, for example.

The case was a 'career changer'. Succeed and fly, fail and fall by the wayside. At one point Sutton's wife referred to it as a possible poisoned chalice. I think the McCann case may have been Redwood;s chalice.
Accept nothing
Believe no-one
Confirm everything

Offline Davel

Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2019, 09:51:53 PM »
A statement was given by one of Bellfield's ex'. It was mentioned to Sutton by the PC who took the statement. He was already homing in on Bellfield's van, but the statement gave him a name and a connection to the murder weapon too.

Now they can see that Bellfield moved around and lived near where other murders took place. He was a 15 second walk from where Milly Dowler was last seen, for example.

The case was a 'career changer'. Succeed and fly, fail and fall by the wayside. At one point Sutton's wife referred to it as a possible poisoned chalice. I think the McCann case may have been Redwood;s chalice.

More like Sutton was handed belfield on a, plate... They were not homing in on belfields vsn... They hadn't got a clue who owned the van... The link to the van was made after Sutton had been given belfields name
mods can delete posts but...
The moving finger writes and having writ moves on...
nor all thy piety nor wit can lure me back to alter but  a line..nor all thy tears wash away  a word of it

Offline Miss Taken Identity

Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2019, 09:52:24 PM »
A statement was given by one of Bellfield's ex'. It was mentioned to Sutton by the PC who took the statement. He was already homing in on Bellfield's van, but the statement gave him a name and a connection to the murder weapon too.

Now they can see that Bellfield moved around and lived near where other murders took place. He was a 15 second walk from where Milly Dowler was last seen, for example.

The case was a 'career changer'. Succeed and fly, fail and fall by the wayside. At one point Sutton's wife referred to it as a possible poisoned chalice. I think the McCann case may have been Redwood;s chalice.


I thought it was very interesting. The guy lead a team who caught a seriel killer. Milly Dowlers parents were very greatful after the behaviousr of thier local police 'investigation'.

 Let us slag him off on behalf of the McCANNS supporters who can't stand him because he  perhaps doesn't believe the McCanns story... oh err.
'Never underestimate the power of stupid people'... George Carlin

Offline G-Unit

Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2019, 10:06:42 PM »

I thought it was very interesting. The guy lead a team who caught a seriel killer. Milly Dowlers parents were very greatful after the behaviousr of thier local police 'investigation'.

 Let us slag him off on behalf of the McCANNS supporters who can't stand him because he  perhaps doesn't believe the McCanns story... oh err.

It's fascinating. Now the press have put their oar in and a deal has had to be made with the News of the World because they threatened to break the story before Sutton's team were ready to move in on Bellfield. Apparently there was a leak from Sutton's team. Oh err indeed.
Accept nothing
Believe no-one
Confirm everything

Offline G-Unit

Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2019, 07:39:42 AM »
If they offered the police the tapes and they didn’t even bother to look at them that would be even worse.

That, it seems, is what happened in the Bellfield case. CCTV footage collected during a previous investigation hadn't been viewed. If it had, Bellfield could have been caught before he killed Amelie Delagrange and Milly Dowler.

Sutton went to France to apologise in person to Amelie's parents, although the mistake wasn't made by his team. He came across as the kind of police officer we need.

This drama demonstrated just how difficult it can be to get the right evidence to prosecute people. Even though I knew how it ended, I felt the tension as Sutton and his team waited for the CPS to decide whether they had enough to charge Bellfield. Clunes was able to convey Sutton's feeling of satisfaction during his completely unemotional reading out of the charge to Bellfield.

What did I learn? All police forces make mistakes, but like others who provide front line services, their mistakes can be a matter of life and death. Leading a murder squad is a very difficult job and it's made harder by superiors, team members, other forces and the press. It was mostly evidence found by Sutton's team which resulted in Bellfield being convicted of Milly Dowler's murder, but Surrey police were reluctant to accept it at first. HOLMES is slow and unwieldy. On the advice of his wife Sutton's team used a stand alone database for speed when searching for information.
Accept nothing
Believe no-one
Confirm everything

Offline Eleanor

Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2019, 08:15:41 AM »

It was interesting.  And the mistake was so easily made.  Before and after midnight and a Police Woman going on holiday.

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2019, 08:22:31 AM »
That, it seems, is what happened in the Bellfield case. CCTV footage collected during a previous investigation hadn't been viewed. If it had, Bellfield could have been caught before he killed Amelie Delagrange and Milly Dowler.

Sutton went to France to apologise in person to Amelie's parents, although the mistake wasn't made by his team. He came across as the kind of police officer we need.

This drama demonstrated just how difficult it can be to get the right evidence to prosecute people. Even though I knew how it ended, I felt the tension as Sutton and his team waited for the CPS to decide whether they had enough to charge Bellfield. Clunes was able to convey Sutton's feeling of satisfaction during his completely unemotional reading out of the charge to Bellfield.

What did I learn? All police forces make mistakes, but like others who provide front line services, their mistakes can be a matter of life and death. Leading a murder squad is a very difficult job and it's made harder by superiors, team members, other forces and the press. It was mostly evidence found by Sutton's team which resulted in Bellfield being convicted of Milly Dowler's murder, but Surrey police were reluctant to accept it at first. HOLMES is slow and unwieldy. On the advice of his wife Sutton's team used a stand alone database for speed when searching for information.
All valid points, however if Bellfield’s girlfriend hadn’t come forward and given a statement it’s highlt likely that the case would have taken much longer to solve which would no doubt have incurred no end of criticism from the general public about how long the police were taking, how incompetent they were and what a waste of money the whole thing was, and what about all the other missing or murdered people.  Actually no it wouldn’t because the McCanns weren’t involved in this one, so no objects of hate for the public to latch on to.
"The answer is that no-one here believes the parents were directly involved in MM's disappearance" - G-Unit.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2019, 08:51:24 AM »
All valid points, however if Bellfield’s girlfriend hadn’t come forward and given a statement it’s highlt likely that the case would have taken much longer to solve which would no doubt have incurred no end of criticism from the general public about how long the police were taking, how incompetent they were and what a waste of money the whole thing was, and what about all the other missing or murdered people.  Actually no it wouldn’t because the McCanns weren’t involved in this one, so no objects of hate for the public to latch on to.

Are you finally acknowledging how unacceptable and unfair the vicious and obsessive criticism of the Policia Judiciaria has been?  Well done you, if so.
Accept nothing
Believe no-one
Confirm everything

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Manhunt by Colin Sutton. Are there comparisons with Madeleine?
« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2019, 08:54:03 AM »
Are you finally acknowledging how unacceptable and unfair the vicious and obsessive criticism of the Policia Judiciaria has been?  Well done you, if so.
No I don’t think they, or any other police force are above criticism, especially not those who throw in the towel and release their files, revealing just how incompetent they were imo. 

My point was aimed at those currently involved in slagging off the Met about how long they are taking without any apparent results.  If it transpires that all the Met was doing in the last five years was shuffling paper about and going to Portugal to play golf then obviously they deserve every criticism coming to them.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2019, 11:47:03 AM by John »
"The answer is that no-one here believes the parents were directly involved in MM's disappearance" - G-Unit.