Author Topic: Does the sequence of events support abduction or manslaughter?  (Read 5308 times)

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Offline Luz

Re: Does the sequence of events support abduction or manslaughter?
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2013, 09:47:00 PM »
Though I think they could have been involved in Maddie's death I don't see how they could have had time to dispose of a body etc unless the real timeline was radically different to the official one. That's why I'm undecided (plus there is evidence of Portuguese police putting pressure on the parents of a missing child to admit to murder on at least one occasion in the past, and child abductions are disproportionally common in Portugal).


This document whose translation is offered in joana morais blog (http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2011/08/sos-crianca-has-signalled-41-missing.html), although is not referred to 2007 nor to 2013, can throw a little light on how 
«child abductions are disproportionally common in Portugal»:


 SOS-Criança has signalled 41 missing children [in Portugal] in 2010. Most of them ran away from home, but there were also parental abductions and flights from institutions. Some went missing for less than two days, others for over a year.

A report from SOS-Criança, an organization that was created in 1989 by the Child Support Institute (Instituto de Apoio à Criança) reveals that most of the children that disappeared last year had run away from home (25), but there were also 10 cases that were parental abductions and another six situations where the children fled from the institutions where they were staying.

Ten children were missing for less than two days and another seven for less than one week. The report further indicates that in five cases, the child managed to remain out of contact for one to two weeks, and three children disappeared for two to three weeks.

Three minors ran away for three to four weeks and another two remained unaccounted for a period over one month. In three cases, the minors disappeared for over half a year, and in four cases, for over nine months. The report further indicates that three minors remained missing for over one year.

Most of these children had someone “waiting for them”: 12 were with a parent, 16 with companions or friends and five with their siblings. Fifteen minors ended up returning “home” on their own, while in six situations it was the family or police (six times) that cleared the case. “Two children did not want to return home/to the institution, and nine have an open process”, the report mentions, indicating that 12 of the “missing” were repeat situations.

Concerning parental abductions, in 13 cases the parents were still married, eight were divorced, six were separated, and there were also two cases of people living together or single. The civil situation of the parents of nine missing children remains unknown until now.

Family conflicts are the most common motive for runaways

Family conflicts were the main motive for running away, followed by the internet and the influence of friends. "Domestic violence was responsible for four disappearances and abuse was responsible in three cases". The report further points out cases of psychiatric illness, neglect, behavioural problems, dating and even the story of a minor who ran away to attend a concert.

Last year, 31 girls and 10 boys disappeared, and most of the cases take place near the weekend: 11 on a Friday, seven on a Thursday and another five cases on a Monday.

As far as ages are concerned, there is no pattern: last year, two children aged two and six children aged three, five, six, seven, ten and eleven, but also five 16-year-olds and four 17-year-olds.

Most of them lived in Lisbon (11). In Évora and Bragança, four minor went missing in each of the regions. Setúbal, Braga, Coimbra, Faro, Leiria, Viseu, Santarém and Aveiro also registered cases.

In most of the situations, the alert was given by the family, but there were also eleven flights that were denounced by the community, and seven by professionals from institutions that are related to children. In two cases, the "fugitives" themselves contacted the SOS-Missing Child services.

Eight denunciations arrived at the SOS services by e-mail, while the other 33 arrived by phone, the report reveals, further indicating that the Missing Children Service has already signalled 318 cases over the years. Last year, there were 41 cases, half of what was registered in 2009, when the services signalled 88 missing children.


I'm sorry I couldn't find any document attesting that police have put pressure on parents to admitting the demise of children....By the way, Leonor, the convicted murder of her daughter was today sentenced to a plus 7 months in jail for having lied about being tortured by the police.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 09:51:21 PM by Luz »

Offline John

Re: Does the sequence of events support abduction or manslaughter?
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2013, 10:09:08 PM »
Thanks Stephen and Eleanor for the timings which seems to be in dispute.  This is something I have learned from the Bamber case, you have to be accurate with your time-line or the argument just falls apart.  An accuracy to about 5 mins is normal in some cases.

Do we have verified timings for when Gerry was out of anyones view?
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. John Lamberton exposes malfeasance by public officials.
Check out my website >   http://johnlamberton.webs.com/index.htm?no_redirect=true     The truth never changes with the passage of time.

Online Eleanor

Re: Does the sequence of events support abduction or manslaughter?
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2013, 10:13:23 PM »
Thanks Stephen and Eleanor for the timings which seems to be in dispute.  This is something I have learned from the Bamber case, you have to be accurate with your time-line or the argument just falls apart.  An accuracy to about 5 mins is normal in some cases.

Do we have verified timings for when Gerry was out of anyones view?

He went to the appartment approx 9 pm.  Stayed approx 10 minutes as he used the lavatory.  Stopped to talk to Gez Wilkins on the way back.  Returned to the table approx 9.20

Offline John

Re: Does the sequence of events support abduction or manslaughter?
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2013, 10:23:53 PM »
Let us just suppose that Kate and Gerry found Maddie, dead in the apartment. How on earth did they manage to conceal and then later, dispose of her body?

Why am I agreeing with you all the time today sika?  @)(++(* 

Anyway, one of the dogs detected in the cupboard beside the bed but so what?  The police would have checked all those areas immediately they were alerted so I fail to see what that proves at the end of the day.

Gerry only was out of sight for minutes and was constantly watched after the police were involved so I find any suggestion that he or they hid the body and then moved it to be rather preposterous.

The evidence relating to the dog and the hire car hired weeks after the disappearance is strange but not altogether surprising.  The dogs were out of their own territory working in a foreign environment with strange smells and odours because of the heat, I for on would not be surprised if they made a false indication.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. John Lamberton exposes malfeasance by public officials.
Check out my website >   http://johnlamberton.webs.com/index.htm?no_redirect=true     The truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Luz

Re: Does the sequence of events support abduction or manslaughter?
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2013, 10:40:38 PM »
Let us just suppose that Kate and Gerry found Maddie, dead in the apartment. How on earth did they manage to conceal and then later, dispose of her body?

Why am I agreeing with you all the time today sika?  @)(++(* 

Anyway, one of the dogs detected in the cupboard beside the bed but so what?  The police would have checked all those areas immediately they were alerted so I fail to see what that proves at the end of the day.
 

Gerry only was out of sight for minutes and was constantly watched after the police were involved so I find any suggestion that he or they hid the body and then moved it to be rather preposterous.

The evidence relating to the dog and the hire car hired weeks after the disappearance is strange but not altogether surprising.  The dogs were out of their own territory working in a foreign environment with strange smells and odours because of the heat, I for on would not be surprised if they made a false indication.

You don't know at what time they found (if they did) her dead. In fact there was an interest on making the reconstruction by the PJ because the period between 17:30 and 20:30 was considered extremely important.
Allegedely the child was seen by an independent wittness at 17:30 and the McCs arrived at the Tapas at about 20:30.

Dismissing the dogs is what the McCs also did, but then there has been convictions recently for murder in the absence of a body just because dogs signaled cadaver odour....
« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 10:44:46 PM by Luz »

debunker

  • Guest
Re: Does the sequence of events support abduction or manslaughter?
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2013, 10:43:57 PM »
Let us just suppose that Kate and Gerry found Maddie, dead in the apartment. How on earth did they manage to conceal and then later, dispose of her body?

Why am I agreeing with you all the time today sika?  @)(++(* 

Anyway, one of the dogs detected in the cupboard beside the bed but so what?  The police would have checked all those areas immediately they were alerted so I fail to see what that proves at the end of the day.


Gerry only was out of sight for minutes and was constantly watched after the police were involved so I find any suggestion that he or they hid the body and then moved it to be rather preposterous.

The evidence relating to the dog and the hire car hired weeks after the disappearance is strange but not altogether surprising.  The dogs were out of their own territory working in a foreign environment with strange smells and odours because of the heat, I for on would not be surprised if they made a false indication.


You don't know at what time they found (if they did) her dead. In fact there was an interest on making the reconstruction by the PJ because the period between 17:30 and 20:30 was considered extremely important.
Allegedely the child was seen by an independent wittness at 17:30 and the McCs arrived at the Tapas at about 20:30.

You ASSume that she was found dead and not abducted.

Online Eleanor

Re: Does the sequence of events support abduction or manslaughter?
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2013, 10:53:44 PM »

No one has ever been convicted on dog evidence alone.  Perish the thought.

Offline Outlook

Re: Does the sequence of events support abduction or manslaughter?
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2013, 11:02:20 PM »

No one has ever been convicted on dog evidence alone.  Perish the thought.

I recall a famous UK case where two children were murdered and the police dog did locate them but because of the training the dog was not trained to give an audible warning so police handler did not investigate the location.  When the children were located some weeks later a review of the dog training revealed this significant weakness in the handling and the training had to be revised.

Dogs however invaluable are only as good as their training and the ability of the handler to interpret their behaviour.