Author Topic: Myth #2 - Witness saw Gerry carrying a child at 10pm  (Read 10528 times)

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Offline Admin

Myth #2 - Witness saw Gerry carrying a child at 10pm
« on: April 11, 2013, 09:36:34 AM »
Myth #2 - Witness saw Gerry McCann carrying a child at 10pm

This is one of the most debated myths which does the rounds on the various internet sites looking and more than often speculating on the Madeleine McCann case.

From the evidence it is clear that Mr Gerald McCann could not have been in two places at once.

In addition to the accounts of that evening provided by the Tapas 9 group of which Mr McCann was a member,  several independent witnesses placed Mr McCann in and around the Ocean Club during that fateful evening.  A waiter at the tapas bar who was responsible for serving the group clearly recalls the group including the McCann's being seated at the table with the other seven diners from 8.45pm.  He also confirmed that only one of the group failed to remain at the table and had to have his meal held back until his return at 9.45pm. We know that that particular individual was caring for a sick child in his apartment and was later relieved by his partner.

Another independent witness encountered and conversed with Mr McCann just outside the Ocean Club for a few minutes just after 9.10pm.  This is again corroborated by a member of the tapas 9 who walked past as they chatted.

The events which followed the discovery that Madeleine was missing can easily be pieced together by reference to further witnesses including the two Portuguese G.N.R. police officers who were the first responders to the abduction, the Club manager, the Admin, the Head of Child Care, a translator and a crθche worker.  Their evidence together confirms that the discovery was made and reported just after 10pm.  Indeed, a local girl who walked past the McCann apartment at exactly 10pm confirmed that the resort was quiet with little disturbance at that very moment in time.

There can be no doubt that Gerry McCann was seated at his table in the tapas bar enjoying his evening meal when his wife Kate reported that their daughter was missing and was not 400 yards away carrying a child as has been suggested. 


« Last Edit: August 17, 2013, 11:27:01 PM by John »

Offline Angelo222

Re: Myth #2 - Witness thought he saw Gerry carrying a child at 10pm
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2013, 05:18:16 PM »
It is a myth and an extremely important that it is exposed as one.  Smith simply made a mistake and should have realised it when the other members of his family refused to corroborate his claim.  Full marks to him for coming forward though.
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Redblossom

  • Guest
Re: Myth #2 - Witness thought he saw Gerry carrying a child at 10pm
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2013, 07:22:15 PM »
I fail to understand how any witnesses to Gerrys whereabouts before, say 9.40, have any relevance to this issue, given it would take 10 minutes to walk there and 10 minutes back, generously speaking. Let us not forget the alarm, according to Gerrys statement, was not raised until 10.15 pm

Not that I believe the Smiths saw Gerry though either.

Offline comperedna

Re: Myth #2 - Witness saw Gerry carrying a child at 10pm
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2013, 02:04:13 PM »
Smith was a completely independent witness unconnected in any way with the group of friends staying at the Mark Warner would-be-posh holiday camp. To be fair to him, he merely stated that he saw a man carrying a child down to the beach when, quite by chance, he and a group of family members were walking in the other direction. It was on the key evening, so it might have been important. Only later when he saw Gerry McCann carrying one of the twins in the manner of the man he had seen on the key night, did he say it reminded him of what he had seen earlier and it could have been Gerry. He was NEVER sure it was Mr McCann and other family members did not back him up on this.

To call it a forum myth implying lots of people believe it surely WAS Gerry is more than stretching it a bit. I think a myth has to be a fairly commonly held unsupported belief.  Are there many who swear it was Gerry McCann  Martin Smith saw? I doubt it. The timeline of everyone concerned's activities on that night is, to say the least confused. It is not helped by the fact that key persons involved chose not to return to PDL to, so to speak, walk it through to sharpen that timeline up. Genuine recollections/statements from people who have no axe to grind can be found saying diners were frequently popping up and down from the McCann's table like rabbits out of holes, and darting off to check on the children, to those who say nobody left the table at all.

More on seeing people and things in the semi-dark... The ever changing account by the McCann's friend Jane of exactly what or whom she saw is confused to say the least. It could have been someone carrying a bundle, or someone carrying  a sleeping child. It could have been a tallish man or a 'person' of medium height, swarthy or longhaired or not etc etc. In the best of light people of good will can be unsure exactly what they saw. 

Try carrying something even half of the weight of an almost four year old with arms outstretched in the manner Jane described.  You won't get far...

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Myth #2 - Witness saw Gerry carrying a child at 10pm
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2013, 02:15:46 PM »
How's this a myth when it could've been Gerry out on those first searches when everyone had split up. Do you know where Gerry went on those first searches for Madeleine? Maybe the Smith family were wrong on their time and it was 10.05pm when he passed them.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 01:28:30 AM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Luz

Re: Myth #2 - Witness saw Gerry carrying a child at 10pm
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2013, 09:12:18 PM »
Not a myth since there are official depositions to the police made by several members of the Smith family.

The several testimonies may be read in http://www.mccannfiles.com/id162.html



Martin Smith's sighting

Height:
175 to 180 cm tall (5’ 9’’ to 5’ 11’)
 
Age:
30-35
 
Hair:
Short, brown hair
 
Skin:
White
 
Top clothes:
A darker top. The man is not dressed like a tourist
 
Trousers:
Cream or beige trousers, classic cut, of linen or cotton
 
Build:
Average build, physically fit
 
Shoes:
Not specified
 
Carrying child:
Carrying a child, with the head against his left shoulder and the arms hanging down alongside the body
 
Child's description:
Bare feet, pale skin typical of British and blonde, shoulder-length hair; the girl is about 3-4 years old, about 1 metre tall
 
Child's clothes:
Light coloured or pink pyjamas



Witness testimony of Martin Smith, 26 May 2007
 
Date of Diligence: 2007.05.06
Location: DIC Portimao
Name: MARTIN SMITH

The witness states:
• That he comes to the process as a witness.
• Being of Irish nationality, he does not understand Portuguese in its written or oral form and is accompanied by an interpreter.
• That he has an apartment in Luz, Lagos, located in the Estela da Luz Urbanizaco, A1C. This apartment is co-owned by a friend whose name is L*** O*****. He normally visits Portugal three times a year. When here, he stays in the apartment. Concerning this period, he states that he arrived in Portugal on the 30th of April, 2007, with a booked return date of May 9, 2007. He arrived at Faro airport and flew out from Dublin.
• Concerning the facts under investigation, on the 3rd of May, he went with his family to the Dolphin restaurant in Praia da Luz where they dined. Around 21H00 they left the restaurant and headed toward "Kelly's Bar"; about a 50 metre distance from the restaurant, following the path, as it is very short. The walk took him a few minutes. In "Kelly's Bar" they consumed some drinks. They left that establishment around 21H55 as his son was due to return home very early the next day. This bar is located on Calheta Street.
• After leaving the bar, he travelled in the opposite direction and reached a set of stairs which gave access to Rua 25 de Abril (25th of April Street). On this artery they followed a second street, parallel to Rua 1 de Maio (1st of May Street) whose name he does not remember. He was heading toward his apartment (Estrela da Luz complex) which is located a little above the street that crosses the primary school. As he reached this artery, he crossed an individual holding a child. He notes that it is normal to see people carrying children, especially during the holiday season. This individual was walking the downward path, in the opposite direction. He is not aware where this person was headed. He only saw him as they passed each other. He assumed it was a father and daughter and thought nothing more of it.
• Urged, states that when he passed this individual, it must have been around 22H00. He did not know at the time that a child had disappeared. He only became aware of the disappearance of the child the next morning, from his daughter in Ireland. She had sent him a message or called him regarding what had happened. At this point he thought that MADELEINE could have been the child he saw with the individual.
• Regarding the individual he states that: he was Caucasian, around 175 to 180m in height. He appeared to be about 35/40 years old. He had a normal complexion, a bit on the thin side. His hair was short, in a basic male cut, brown in colour. He cannot state if it was dark or lighter in tone. He did not use glasses and had no beard or moustache. He did not notice any other relevant details partly due to the fact that the lighting was not very good.
• He was wearing cream or beige-coloured cloth trousers in a classic cut. He did not see his shoes and cannot describe the colour or form of the same.
• He states that the child was female, about four years of age as she was similar to his granddaughter of the same age. It was a child of normal complexion, about a metre in height. The child has blonde medium-hued hair, without being very light. Her skin was very white, typical of a Brit. He did not look at her eyes. As she was asleep and her eyelids were closed.
• She was wearing light-coloured pyjamas. He cannot state with certainty the colour. She was not covered by any other cover or sheet. He cannot confirm whether she was barefoot but in his group, they spoke about the child having no cover on her feet.
• Urged, he states that the individual did not appear to be a tourist. He cannot explain this further. It was simply his perception given the individual's clothing. He states that the individual carried the child in his arms, with her head laying on the individual's shoulders to the right of the deponent. He adds that he did not hold the child in a comfortable position.
• Having already seen various photographs of MADELEINE alongside her images on television, states that she may have been the child he saw. He cannot state this as fact but is convinced that it could have been MADELEINE. Indeed, this is the opinion of his family.
• Questioned, says that the individual did not speak nor did the child as she was in a deep sleep.
• States that it is not possible to recognise the individual in person or by photograph.
• Adds that in May and August of 2006, he saw ROBERT MURAT in Praia da Luz bars. On one of these occasions, he was inebriated and spoke to everyone. He did not use glasses at this time. He also states that the individual who carried the child was not ROBERT. He would have recognised him immediately.
• At being asked, states that he was accompanied by his wife, MARY SMITH and his son, PETER SMITH, his daughter-in-law, S***, and his grandchildren of 13 and 6 years of age (children of PETER) T**** and C***, his daughter AOIFE (12 years of age) and his other two grandchildren (A******* (10 years old) and E***** (four years old). These are children of his daughter B***** who was in Ireland.
• States also that when he passed this individual mid-street, traffic is minimal or non-existent.
• He adds that the group passed him some metres away so that they could make out the individual from various distinct positions.
• He has added a sketch indicating the direction of the locale and the sighting.
• He has no other elements to offer the investigation.
• And nothing more was said. He reads and finds it in conformity, ratifies and signs together with the interpreter.





Additional statement by Martin Smith, 30 January 2008

Cover note
 
Detective Branch
Drogheda
County Lough

Re – Investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann

I took an additional statement from Mr Smith as requested. His wife does not want to make another statement. I showed him the video clip and he stated that it was not the clip that alerted him but the BBC news at 10 PM on 9th September 2007.

He has been contacted by numerous tabloid press looking for stories. He has been contacted by Mr Brian Kennedy who is supporting the McCann family to take part in a photo fit exercise. He has given no stories or helped in any photo fits. He sent a solicitor’s letter to six papers in relation material that was printed that was misquoted. The Evening Herald paid his solicitor's fees and all papers printed an apology. His photograph appeared in another tabloid paper and this matter is being pursued at the moment.

I do not believe that Martin Smith is courting the press and my view his is a genuine person. He is known locally and is a very decent person.

Forwarded please

Sergeant

L*** H****



Additional statement by Martin Smith, 30 January 2008
 
I hereby declare that this statement is true to the best of my knowledge and belief and that I make it knowing that if it is tendered in evidence I will be liable to prosecution if I state in it anything which I know to be false or do not believe to be true.

I would like to state that the statement I made on 26th May 2007 in Portugal is correct. The description of the individual that I saw on 3rd May 2007 carrying a child is as follows. He was average build, 5 foot 10” in height, brown hair cut short, aged 40 years approximately. Wearing beige trousers and darkish top maybe a jacket or blazer. He had a full head of hair with a tight cut. This individual was alone. I saw Gerard McCann (sic) going down the plane stairs carrying one of his children on 9th September 2007 BBC news at 10 PM, I have been shown the video clip by Sergeant Hogan which I recognise. A clip I have seen before on the Internet. In relation to the video clips of Gerard McCann and the person I saw on 3rd May 2007 when I saw the BBC news at 10 PM on 9th September 2007 something struck me that it could have been the same person. It was the way Gerard McCann turned his head down which was similar to what the individual did on 3rd May 2007 when we met him. It may have been the way he was carrying the child either. I would be 60-80% sure that it was Gerard McCann that I met that night carrying a child. I am basing that on his mannerism in the way he carried the child off the plane. After seeing the BBC news at 10 PM, footage on the 9th September 2007 I contacted Leicestershire police with this information. During that time I spoke to all my family members who were with me on the night of 3rd May 2007 about this and the only one who felt the same way as me was my wife. She had seen the video clip of Gerard McCann walking down the stairs of the plane earlier that day. We did not discuss this until some days later. This statement has been read over to me and is correct.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 02:58:19 AM by Luz »

Offline Luz

Re: Myth #2 - Witness saw Gerry carrying a child at 10pm
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2013, 09:23:59 PM »


In the files there is a copy of the receipt from the Bar where the Smith's were issued at 21:55h.

As for Gerald McCann's whereabouts, there is no consensual testimonies (that I re-read, so far) that can put him anywhere at 10:00h. Maybe later I'll have time to gather all the depositions in order to find out where he was.

Offline Estelle

Re: Myth #2 - Witness saw Gerry carrying a child at 10pm
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2013, 06:57:41 AM »
Thanks, Luz, for posting the statements from Martin Smith. He was 60-80% sure it was Gerry McCann.

Maybe now other people will come forward to state where they saw Gerry at this time.

IMO .............was carrying a sedated ........... hoping to be seen but not recognised to give credence to the abduction theory.   No one would carry a dead body around PDL!


edited
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 08:29:55 AM by Admin »

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Myth #2 - Witness saw Gerry carrying a child at 10pm
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2013, 12:51:38 AM »
Aiofa Smith was certain they left Kelly's Bar at 10pm so they saw the suspect after 10pm when the first searches were going on for Madeleine.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Haskins

Re: Myth #2 - Witness saw Gerry carrying a child at 10pm
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2013, 02:55:35 PM »
Regarding Gerry McCann's whereabouts, a newspaper report dated 7/7/08 related that:

"What the investigators established later on was that, after all, the reconstruction of the evening that was sustained by the group, was not straightforward. In truth, nobody knows at exactly what time each element of the group was present at the restaurant, given the fact that several of the English got up from the table in a more or less alternate manner during the dinner at the Ocean Club."

But there are problems with the Smith sighting. Even if Martin Smith were 100% sure then it would not be conclusive. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable and the report related above shows that in this particular case, Smith is likely to have subconsciously  created schemas, in accordance with the theory of reconstructive memory. He later saw McCann coming off a plane and most likely retrospectively distorted his memory in order to make it fit in with what he remembered. 

http://www.simplypsychology.org/eyewitness-testimony.html

Notwithstanding this the police have now issued e-fits of the suspect that the Smiths apparently saw at 10:00 am - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24539403




Offline el cojones

Re: Myth #2 - Witness saw Gerry carrying a child at 10pm
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2013, 02:41:47 AM »
I agree that Gerry McCann couldn't be in 2 places at once but then we are assuming that the Tapas 9 and Mr Smith synchronised their watches and everyone noted when it was exactly 10pm. Mr Smiths sighting was 400 yards away from the Ocean Club which, as Mr McCann is a runner it would take him around 90 seconds to cover that distance without breaking sweat. So, if Mr Smith was "out" by 5 minutes on his timing, there is no "two places at once" issue. In any event, the E-fits released last week do show a remarkable resemblance to Mr McCann.

Offline Angelo222

Re: Myth #2 - Witness saw Gerry carrying a child at 10pm
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2013, 09:31:53 AM »
There is no way the Smiths saw Gerry, even their own children who probably have better eyesight didn't think so.  I do agree though that the carrier probably had some features in common with Gerry thus the confusion.  Maybe we should call the carrier the doppelgδnger??
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline fizzbomb

Re: Myth #2 - Witness saw Gerry carrying a child at 10pm
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2013, 10:35:56 AM »
  The McCans tried everything to suppress the Smith sighting , why would that be then ?
after all there were crazy press conferences trying to locate a  Victoria Beckham look a likes.
This was a sighting of a child matching maddy's description , wearing same clothes , but we hear nothing from Clarence.
incidentally someones gaite is a give away , Thats how" paps" for example  can spot there prey at night  before they can see there faces , from the way they walk etc , so seeing someones mannerisms for a second time could be a good indicator that was the person you saw the first time , just a point 
« Last Edit: November 07, 2013, 10:46:04 AM by fizzbomb »

Offline rotti

Re: Myth #2 - Witness saw Gerry carrying a child at 10pm
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2015, 09:57:52 PM »
jerry is the man the smiths saw.mccaans follow every lead but dont even mention the smith sighting.kate could not act the part that night so while jerry and other tapas bar chums were acting out a search kate remained in the flat she knew jerry had already hidden her.and she could not act as good as the others.when ones child goes missing abroad the parents will be appealing every day for help .they did not insted they had about 7 different people as spokesmen reading out stupid statements on behalf of the mccaans

Online ShiningInLuz

Re: Myth #2 - Witness saw Gerry carrying a child at 10pm
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2016, 04:12:55 PM »
jerry is the man the smiths saw.mccaans follow every lead but dont even mention the smith sighting.kate could not act the part that night so while jerry and other tapas bar chums were acting out a search kate remained in the flat she knew jerry had already hidden her.and she could not act as good as the others.when ones child goes missing abroad the parents will be appealing every day for help .they did not insted they had about 7 different people as spokesmen reading out stupid statements on behalf of the mccaans
Purely for accuracy, the Smith sighting is detailed on pages 371 and 372 of Kate's book.  Kate states on p371 that this has been discussed in her book.  P371 and 372 compare Tannerman and Smithman.

The Tannerman sketch is in the book.  The Smithman e-fits are not.
What's it all about, Alfie?