Author Topic: Cadaver dog Alerts on the clothing.  (Read 14342 times)

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Offline Brietta

Re: Cadaver dog Alerts on the clothing.
« Reply #90 on: October 20, 2017, 11:29:24 PM »
Not evidence Brietta for a dog alert is not evidence.  Martin Crime has made that very clear.

If the clothing had been deliberately contaminated the dog alert would have been confirmed by whatever the contaminant was, Robbity.  It would then have been evidence.

The problem for anyone deliberately planting evidence was not giving reason to make the dog alert ... in my opinion that is easy ... it would have been the difficulty of convincing forensic scientists of a direct link to Madeleine that was the obstacle.
The remit of Operation Grange is to investigate ...  "(as if the abduction occurred in the UK)"

Offline sadie

Re: Cadaver dog Alerts on the clothing.
« Reply #91 on: October 21, 2017, 12:02:11 AM »
lol Pathy... oh leave em be they seem happy!

So, Pathy do you know what Kate said when she was shown the video of the CADAVER dog alerting to 'something' smells like cadaver on her clothes?


 I just wonder if Grime has to push police women out of the searching area as his wee dog might bark at them while they are on, before or after a period.

It is interesting as one poster is convinced the dog alerted to kate having a period- now why did the dog not alert to Kates bed and the sofa she sat on and ... well everything in the laundry area?

Answers on  back of a postage stamp if you please
Please do not put words into my mouth.   I mentioned that possibility as quite likely ... not as a certainty

I dont know when she had her last period ... do you?
I dont know what she normally wore about the apartment ... do you?  Swimsuiit, shorts?  ... brand new?
I dont know what she wore in bed, if anything .... do you?
I dont know if she bought new undies for her holiday .... do you?

Maybe she normally only wore those particular slacks when having dinner ... do you know any different?

Before scoffing too loudly please consider what we don't know.  Things that SY will probably know.



Offline pathfinder73

Re: Cadaver dog Alerts on the clothing.
« Reply #92 on: October 21, 2017, 12:55:01 AM »
But there is no evidence that Keela was shown all the clothes .... and that was necessary to prove that Eddie wasn't alerting to dried blood from a living operson.

It was a MUST that both dogs were shown every item, otherwise the test was invalidated..

BOXES OF CLOTHING / PROPERTY FORM MR McCANN'S RESIDENCE.

At a suitable venue numerous boxes of clothing / property taken from the  McCann present residence were screened using both the EVRD and the CSI dog. The venue was screened by both dogs prior to introducing clothing / property. Neither gave an alert indication. The screening then took place with the contents of each box being placed around the room in turn. The process was recorded by video and written records were taken by PJ officers.

The only alert indication was by the EVRD on clothing from one of the boxes. I am not in possession of the details as these were recorded by the PJ officers present.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Online Robittybob1

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Re: Cadaver dog Alerts on the clothing.
« Reply #93 on: October 21, 2017, 01:19:39 AM »
BOXES OF CLOTHING / PROPERTY FORM MR McCANN'S RESIDENCE.

At a suitable venue numerous boxes of clothing / property taken from the  McCann present residence were screened using both the EVRD and the CSI dog. The venue was screened by both dogs prior to introducing clothing / property. Neither gave an alert indication. The screening then took place with the contents of each box being placed around the room in turn. The process was recorded by video and written records were taken by PJ officers.

The only alert indication was by the EVRD on clothing from one of the boxes. I am not in possession of the details as these were recorded by the PJ officers present.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
It is not all covered on the video available to us.
What are you doing to find Madeleine?

Offline slartibartfast

Re: Cadaver dog Alerts on the clothing.
« Reply #94 on: October 21, 2017, 09:37:37 AM »
It is not all covered on the video available to us.

And?
We're only making plans for Nigel

Offline sadie

Re: Cadaver dog Alerts on the clothing.
« Reply #95 on: October 21, 2017, 09:59:38 AM »
And?
It was an absolute mishmash imo.   Dog running all over the place and items missed.

They say that they videoed the procedure, then they released the video.

It shows various items were not checked by both dogs.

As far as I could see, many items were only sniffed by one dog ... Eddie IIRC


It was manadatory that both dogs had to have sniffed each item for the alerts to mean anything.





I am doing this from mermory.  Please correct me if I am wrong

Offline Angelo222

Re: Cadaver dog Alerts on the clothing.
« Reply #96 on: October 21, 2017, 10:14:35 AM »
It was an absolute mishmash imo.   Dog running all over the place and items missed.

They say that they videoed the procedure, then they released the video.

It shows various items were not checked by both dogs.

As far as I could see, many items were only sniffed by one dog ... Eddie IIRC


It was manadatory that both dogs had to have sniffed each item for the alerts to mean anything.





I am doing this from mermory.  Please correct me if I am wrong

The thing about the dog videos is whether they can be taken at face value?  I believe there was a lot which never did get into the public domain.
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

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Offline Benice

Re: Cadaver dog Alerts on the clothing.
« Reply #97 on: October 21, 2017, 10:30:23 AM »
BOXES OF CLOTHING / PROPERTY FORM MR McCANN'S RESIDENCE.

At a suitable venue numerous boxes of clothing / property taken from the  McCann present residence were screened using both the EVRD and the CSI dog. The venue was screened by both dogs prior to introducing clothing / property. Neither gave an alert indication. The screening then took place with the contents of each box being placed around the room in turn. The process was recorded by video and written records were taken by PJ officers.

The only alert indication was by the EVRD on clothing from one of the boxes. I am not in possession of the details as these were recorded by the PJ officers present.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

Has it ever been clarified who decided which articles of clothing had been alerted to?  i.e. M.  Grime or the PJ officers present?   I'm surprised that Grime does not appear to remember details of what his dog alerted to and refers us to the PJ officers for that info.    (If that is what he is saying)

It certainly was one heck of a coincidence that out of the scores of items of clothing packed up for testing - that all of the items alerted to just happened to have been packed into the same box.   The odds of that happening by sheer chance must be phenomenal IMO.     It's noticeable IMO that Grime makes a point of mentioning this  'one box' aspect.
AIMO

 
The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline G-Unit

Re: Cadaver dog Alerts on the clothing.
« Reply #98 on: October 21, 2017, 11:07:08 AM »
It's been very quiet recently on the forum. It's been mostly me and Rob discussing various aspects of the files. I recall being told at one point that the first investigation was water under the bridge and the two new investigations were where it's at now. Until Rob mentioned dogs. Suddenly there's lots of interest and debate. It seems there's one aspect of the first investigation that's still of interest to all, despite it's having taken place 10 years ago. 

The dogs were, of course, British, not sub-standard Portuguese dogs. Not only were they British, they were trained and handled by probably the most experienced British police dog trainer and handler available at the time. The only thing that needs to be said about the dog alerts is that they weren't confirmed forensically. Why people have spent hours trying to cast doubt on the usefulness of all such dogs, and why their handler's capabilities have been questioned is most interesting.
Accept nothing
Believe no-one
Confirm everything

Offline Brietta

Re: Cadaver dog Alerts on the clothing.
« Reply #99 on: October 21, 2017, 11:24:28 AM »
And?

The official videos taken by the Policia Judiciaria were location, time and date stamped.

The videos we have seen carry a stamp indicating they are copyrighted by Duarte Levy.

Snip
All the searches that occurred were documented in video by the PJ, including location, time and date stamps.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON-RIGATORY.htm
The remit of Operation Grange is to investigate ...  "(as if the abduction occurred in the UK)"

Offline Benice

Re: Cadaver dog Alerts on the clothing.
« Reply #100 on: October 21, 2017, 11:47:32 AM »
It's been very quiet recently on the forum. It's been mostly me and Rob discussing various aspects of the files. I recall being told at one point that the first investigation was water under the bridge and the two new investigations were where it's at now. Until Rob mentioned dogs. Suddenly there's lots of interest and debate. It seems there's one aspect of the first investigation that's still of interest to all, despite it's having taken place 10 years ago. 

The dogs were, of course, British, not sub-standard Portuguese dogs. Not only were they British, they were trained and handled by probably the most experienced British police dog trainer and handler available at the time. The only thing that needs to be said about the dog alerts is that they weren't confirmed forensically. Why people have spent hours trying to cast doubt on the usefulness of all such dogs, and why their handler's capabilities have been questioned is most interesting.

IMO the only people who have tried to cast doubt on the dogs abilities are those who refuse to accept the word of their handler and keep insisting that because one of his dogs alerted - a dead body must once have been present in those places.  No  matter how many times it is pointed out to them that that isn't true - the myth is is still being peddled around the WWW as if it were a proven fact -  10 years on.   

The handler himself has stated that in this case the dog alerts have no evidential value and has explained why.      In 10 years that has not changed.    It seems to me that it is exclusively 'sceptics' who still refuse to accept those facts.

AFAIAC all sniffer dogs are wonderful.

AIMO

 

The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline misty

Re: Cadaver dog Alerts on the clothing.
« Reply #101 on: October 21, 2017, 12:32:58 PM »
It's been very quiet recently on the forum. It's been mostly me and Rob discussing various aspects of the files. I recall being told at one point that the first investigation was water under the bridge and the two new investigations were where it's at now. Until Rob mentioned dogs. Suddenly there's lots of interest and debate. It seems there's one aspect of the first investigation that's still of interest to all, despite it's having taken place 10 years ago. 

The dogs were, of course, British, not sub-standard Portuguese dogs. Not only were they British, they were trained and handled by probably the most experienced British police dog trainer and handler available at the time. The only thing that needs to be said about the dog alerts is that they weren't confirmed forensically. Why people have spent hours trying to cast doubt on the usefulness of all such dogs, and why their handler's capabilities have been questioned is most interesting.

Keela was not trained under ACPO accredited methodology and Eddie was a regular UK cadaver dog trained on decomposing piglet with possibly a short time on the real human stuff.
 IMO the reason those particular dogs were chosen to go to Luz was because Mark Harrison of NPIA who carried out the scoping exercise, was involved in training Keela (http://eddieandkeela.blogspot.co.uk/2005/12/police-dog-top-earner.html). Frankie's record was better than Eddie's afaicr.
IMO the NPIA subcontracted the work directly to Grime & the NPIA, not SYP, picked up the bill for the work & paid Grime. There was a conflict of interest in that set-up.

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Cadaver dog Alerts on the clothing.
« Reply #102 on: October 21, 2017, 12:53:21 PM »
Keela was not trained under ACPO accredited methodology and Eddie was a regular UK cadaver dog trained on decomposing piglet with possibly a short time on the real human stuff.
 IMO the reason those particular dogs were chosen to go to Luz was because Mark Harrison of NPIA who carried out the scoping exercise, was involved in training Keela (http://eddieandkeela.blogspot.co.uk/2005/12/police-dog-top-earner.html). Frankie's record was better than Eddie's afaicr.
IMO the NPIA subcontracted the work directly to Grime & the NPIA, not SYP, picked up the bill for the work & paid Grime. There was a conflict of interest in that set-up.

Here is a straight question which has a yes or no answer.
In your opinion would a man of Mr Harrison's standing provide a piece of kit [in this instance k9Kit] to perform a specific function in the full knowledge that the kit was defective /unsuitable in any way whatsoever ?
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline slartibartfast

Re: Cadaver dog Alerts on the clothing.
« Reply #103 on: October 21, 2017, 12:56:59 PM »
QED G-unit. Grime knows that uncorroborated alerts by dogs cannot be used in court and that the alerts cannot point to an individual, a crime or a motive. He wrote his report with those facts in mind. None of this negates the fact of the alerts, only a few supporters seem to think that the alerts need to be debunked.
We're only making plans for Nigel

Offline misty

Re: Cadaver dog Alerts on the clothing.
« Reply #104 on: October 21, 2017, 01:00:35 PM »
Here is a straight question which has a yes or no answer.
In your opinion would a man of Mr Harrison's standing provide a piece of kit [in this instance k9Kit] to perform a specific function in the full knowledge that the kit was defective /unsuitable in any way whatsoever ?

As cadaver dogs are normally deployed in tandem, in this case I would say Harrison did deploy unsuitable kit.