Author Topic: Barry George revisited.  (Read 13630 times)

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Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #360 on: April 20, 2019, 08:05:21 AM »
He comes across as a genuine individual. Was sad to read about Shannon in the epilogue

Mike Bourke:
“On the 21st my brother who first informed me of Barry’s involvement died. That was a sad event but it was good that he saw the shame of the murder conviction at least partly lifted from our family.

« Last Edit: April 20, 2019, 08:12:02 AM by Nicholas »
A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Truth Is Putting On Its Shoes

Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #361 on: April 20, 2019, 10:05:17 AM »
“Four million people tuned into BBC One last night for a documentary, 20 years on, looking at the murder of TV presenter and newsreader Jill Dando.
Dando, who was known for her work on Crimewatch, was shot and killed on the doorstep of her home in the middle of the day in April 1999.
It remains one of Britain's most high-profile unsolved killings.
Early reviews have described the documentary as "sensitive" and "powerful" but lacking answers.
The Independent gave the show the full five stars, saying it was "sensitively produced" and was "a fitting and balanced tribute."
It adds the documentary "explains the pessimism of detective Hamish Campbell - who doesn't think the mystery will ever be solved - with the help of interviews with Dando's friends and family, and original police decision logs."
The Telegraph (behind a pay wall) gave the show four stars, describing it as "a powerful re-examination" but suggesting "a distinct lack of answers."
Notable by its absence was an interview with Barry George, who spent eight years in jail for her murder before having his conviction overturned in 2008.
Explaining why, a BBC spokesperson said: "Barry George's arrest, conviction, appeal, retrial and acquittal are addressed in the film with archive footage to recount the events.
"It was not necessary to have a present day interview with Mr George as this film set out to tell the wider context of Jill's death and the fact her murder remains unsolved.
"Barry George has been kept informed of the nature of the film and transmission."
The Guardian wrote the film was "more moving for its spareness, leaving the talking to Dando's friends and family."
In its review, The Times opted for four stars but said the show contained "no sensational revelations, just sad frustration."
Ahead of the show airing, the much-loved late presenter's brother, Nigel Dando - who learned of his younger sister's death 20 years ago from a TV news bulletin - told BBC Bristol he remains hopeful that one day the case will be solved.
Mr Dando said: "I will eventually find answers... no matter how long it takes.
"At the moment these questions are still open-ended and still haven't been answered."
He added that he wanted to ask the killer, if he or she was ever found, why they did it.
"It's such a pointless thing to have happened.
"I believe there was no reason, it was just an act of random brutality and Jill was in the wrong place at the wrong time."
The Murder of Jill Dando is now available on iPlayer.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-47798970
A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Truth Is Putting On Its Shoes

Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #362 on: April 20, 2019, 10:12:45 AM »
“Four million people tuned into BBC One last night for a documentary, 20 years on, looking at the murder of TV presenter and newsreader Jill Dando.
Dando, who was known for her work on Crimewatch, was shot and killed on the doorstep of her home in the middle of the day in April 1999.
It remains one of Britain's most high-profile unsolved killings.
Early reviews have described the documentary as "sensitive" and "powerful" but lacking answers.
The Independent gave the show the full five stars, saying it was "sensitively produced" and was "a fitting and balanced tribute."
It adds the documentary "explains the pessimism of detective Hamish Campbell - who doesn't think the mystery will ever be solved - with the help of interviews with Dando's friends and family, and original police decision logs."
The Telegraph (behind a pay wall) gave the show four stars, describing it as "a powerful re-examination" but suggesting "a distinct lack of answers."
Notable by its absence was an interview with Barry George, who spent eight years in jail for her murder before having his conviction overturned in 2008.
Explaining why, a BBC spokesperson said: "Barry George's arrest, conviction, appeal, retrial and acquittal are addressed in the film with archive footage to recount the events.
"It was not necessary to have a present day interview with Mr George as this film set out to tell the wider context of Jill's death and the fact her murder remains unsolved.
"Barry George has been kept informed of the nature of the film and transmission."
The Guardian wrote the film was "more moving for its spareness, leaving the talking to Dando's friends and family."
In its review, The Times opted for four stars but said the show contained "no sensational revelations, just sad frustration."
Ahead of the show airing, the much-loved late presenter's brother, Nigel Dando - who learned of his younger sister's death 20 years ago from a TV news bulletin - told BBC Bristol he remains hopeful that one day the case will be solved.
Mr Dando said: "I will eventually find answers... no matter how long it takes.
"At the moment these questions are still open-ended and still haven't been answered."
He added that he wanted to ask the killer, if he or she was ever found, why they did it.
"It's such a pointless thing to have happened.
"I believe there was no reason, it was just an act of random brutality and Jill was in the wrong place at the wrong time."
The Murder of Jill Dando is now available on iPlayer.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-47798970

The Murder of Jill Dando, BBC1

“The Murder of Jill Dando took us – quietly, carefully and unsensationally – through what remains an extraordinary, and unsolved, case. The programme wisely decided to keep out of the way and gave us an hour that was all the more moving for its spareness.”
Lucy Mangan, The Guardian

“An anti-sensationalist retelling of a story that has provoked no end of sensationalism. If the film did anything, even with its sober recap of the twists and turns of the inquiry, it was simply to remind us how this murder case was as deeply strange as it was shocking.”
James Jackson, The Times

“The strength of the film was in director Marcus Plowright’s sensitive interviews with friends, colleagues and family, as well as with the oft-criticised and clearly still rankled detectives. Given that the film had to serve as both tribute and re-examination of the crime, it was lucid and powerful. But there remained an impression that there was more to say.”
Chris Harvey, The Telegraph

“This was a deeply frustrating documentary. Nothing was offered in the way of new evidence. All the show achieved was to remind us what a marvellous broadcaster she was — and how she has never really been replaced.”
Christopher Stevens, Daily Mail
https://www.broadcastnow.co.uk/tv-critics/the-murder-of-jill-dando/5138260.article
A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Truth Is Putting On Its Shoes

Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #363 on: April 20, 2019, 10:40:21 AM »
Boyd Hilton.
“It's 20 years this week since the death of TV presenter Jill Dando, so it's no wonder ITV is following on from BBC1’s  recent The Murder of Jill Dandowith its own documentary. Where the BBC programme meticulously avoided any kind of sensationalist tone, this one has some fairly melodramatic music and narration, but nevertheless has new access to the case files, and catches up with Barry George, who was wrongly convicted of the crime, as well as some of Jill’s close friends, including Sir Cliff Richard.
Julie Etchingham who knew Dando when they worked together at the bbc does a good job of putting the truly shocking story in context.

Thursday 25/04/19
Jill Dando: The 20 Year Mystery (ITV, 9pm)
Richard Jones

“Tomorrow marks the 20-year anniversary of Jill Dando’s death. But two decades on, the murder of the much-loved TV presenter remains unsolved, and her killer is still at large.
Following on from the BBC film earlier this month, this documentary, the latest in ITV’s Crime and Punishment season, sees reporter Julie Etchingham look deeper into one of the highest-profile murder cases of modern times.
Jill, from Weston-super-Mare, Somerset, was one of the best-known faces on British television during the 1990s.
She presented the news, and from 1995 onwards, was the host of Crimewatch. In 1997, she was awarded the BBC Personality of the Year.
On April 26, 1999, Jill was shot dead on the doorstep of her home in Fulham, West London. She was 37 years old.
Her body was discovered by neighbour Helen Doble, and forensic studies showed she was killed by a single shot to her temple fired from a 9mm semi-automatic pistol.
Neighbours did not hear the gunshot and the only confirmed sighting of the killer was by Jill’s next-door neighbour Richard Hughes, who described a six-foot-tall white man aged around 40 walking away from the scene.
Within six months of the murder, more than 2,500 people had been spoken to and police had taken more than 1,000 statements.
Eventually, attention was focused on a man who lived about half a mile from her home, who had a history of stalking women and sexual offences.
Following a trial at the Old Bailey, Barry George was convicted of the crime, however, after eight years in prison, he was acquitted.
The case was reopened, but there have been no new arrests since then.
Now with access to hundreds of documents and photos, Etchingham reveals the theories and leads related to the case which have mystified the police for two decades.
The programme includes interviews with one of Jill’s best friends, as well as George and his sister Michelle.
One of the first theories to gain traction focused on Dando’s job presenting Crimewatch.
Some speculated that her visible role on a show that had led to countless criminals ending up behind bars made her a target.
In 1996 Kenneth Noye was sentenced to life in prison for a road rage killing with the help of a Crimewatch appeal.
According to a report from the now defunct National Criminal Intelligence Service, a barman called Joe owed Noye money and may have opted to settle his debts by killing Dando.
Another theory again argues that Jill was targeted for her Crimewatch job, but the establishment did track down the killer.
Wayne Aird, who was serving a life sentence in prison for killing a man two months after Dando’s shooting, reportedly confessed to being part of what he said was an "establishment cover-up".
Other possible explanations have related to Dando’s attempts to expose a VIP paedophile ring at the BBC, and the scenario that an obsessed member of her fanbase was responsible for her death.
Finally, in the days and weeks leading up to Dando’s assassination, Nato forces were bombing Serbia as part of the Kosovo War.
A man with an Eastern European accent called the BBC the day after the shooting and claimed that it was a revenge killing.
Over the past two decades, it has become increasingly doubtful that Jill’s killer will be brought to justice.
As her brother Nigel Dando said in an interview on Lorraine a few weeks ago: "I doubt we will ever know now because of the passage of time."
Although the years may have decreased the chances of the police catching the killer, this programme and its BBC predecessor has proven that the impact of and public interest in this tragic case is as strong as ever.
https://www.bromleyboroughnews.co.uk/article.cfm?id=130700&headline=TV%20highlights%20from%20Saturday%20April%2020&sectionIs=news&searchyear=2019
A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Truth Is Putting On Its Shoes

Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #364 on: April 20, 2019, 10:56:05 AM »
“Barry George, who was cleared of murdering TV presenter Jill Dando, accepted substantial undisclosed libel damages today over claims that he had pestered women he was obsessed with.

Mr George, who was acquitted of the crime after a retrial in August last year, was at London's High Court with his sister Michelle Diskin, who led the campaign to prove his innocence after his 2001 conviction, for the brief hearing before Mr Justice Eady.

He said afterwards: "I am pleased that the matter between myself and News Group Newspapers has been amicably settled following a successful mediation without the need for litigation."

His counsel, Gordon Bishop, told the court that Mr George had brought the action over a number of articles in The Sun and the News of the World between August and November last year.

He said that News Group had withdrawn the "false allegations" and apologised for making them.

It had agreed to pay him substantial damages and all his legal costs.

Mr Bishop said that immediately after his acquittal, Mr George was interviewed by News of the World reporters and the following day by Kay Burley for Sky TV.

"Mr George agreed to give those interviews because he knew there would be a clamour from the press for his story and he wanted to satisfy the demands of the press as quickly as possible in the hope that he would then be left in peace to move on with his private life."

On August 2 2008, The Sun published articles about the retrial and Mr George, which described a number of matters that had been kept from the jury during the retrial.

Counsel said that News Group now recognised that those articles would have been understood to mean that there were grounds to suspect Mr George of the murder despite his acquittal.

"The defendant accepts that the verdict of the second jury in acquitting Mr George was correct and it apologises to Mr George for any suggestion otherwise."

The following day, the News of the World carried a report of the interviews given by Mr George in which he stated that at the time of the murder he was in a disability centre.

Mr Bishop said: "He also said that an hour later he was in conversation with a woman in the street who became a prosecution witness.

"Although he accepted he was paying possibly unwanted attention to her, she never expressed that to him.

"The headline for the article was 'I didn't kill Jill Dando... I was stalking someone else at the time". The defendant accepts that Mr George never made that statement."

Mr Bishop said various allegations were made in both newspapers in October 2008.

These included that Mr George had become obsessed with Kay Burley, that he pestered a woman whose advert about a dog he had answered, and that he became obsessed with Pam Wright, fiancee of Steve Wright, the Suffolk Strangler.

"The defendant now accepts that, although on one occasion Mr George did cycle to Sky TV studios to try to collect a tape of his interview with Kay Burley, Mr George did not pose a threat and was not obsessed with her, nor did he pester any woman who had a dog for sale, nor did he become obsessed with Pam Wright."

News Group's solicitor Ben Beabey said: "The defendant takes this oppportunity to correct matters and to apologise to Mr George for any hurt and distress he has felt."

Ms Diskin said outside court: "The war was won last August. There may be a few battles to come, but the war has been won. We are happy about that."

Her brother has launched separate High Court proceedings challenging the continued surveillance of his movements, despite his acquittal.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/barry-george-accepts-libel-damages-6779775.html

Interesting to note Kay Burley and Julie Etchingham worked together at Sky News.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2019, 10:59:21 AM by Nicholas »
A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Truth Is Putting On Its Shoes

Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #365 on: April 20, 2019, 11:02:01 AM »
“Now with access to hundreds of documents and photos, Etchingham reveals the theories and leads related to the case which have mystified the police for two decades.
The programme includes interviews with one of Jill’s best friends, as well as George and his sister Michelle.
One of the first theories to gain traction focused on Dando’s job presenting Crimewatch.
Some speculated that her visible role on a show that had led to countless criminals ending up behind bars made her a target.
In 1996 Kenneth Noye was sentenced to life in prison for a road rage killing with the help of a Crimewatch appeal.
According to a report from the now defunct National Criminal Intelligence Service, a barman called Joe owed Noye money and may have opted to settle his debts by killing Dando.
Another theory again argues that Jill was targeted for her Crimewatch job, but the establishment did track down the killer.
Wayne Aird, who was serving a life sentence in prison for killing a man two months after Dando’s shooting, reportedly confessed to being part of what he said was an "establishment cover-up".
Other possible explanations have related to Dando’s attempts to expose a VIP paedophile ring at the BBC, and the scenario that an obsessed member of her fanbase was responsible for her death.
Finally, in the days and weeks leading up to Dando’s assassination, Nato forces were bombing Serbia as part of the Kosovo War.
A man with an Eastern European accent called the BBC the day after the shooting and claimed that it was a revenge killing.
https://www.bromleyboroughnews.co.uk/article.cfm?id=130700&headline=TV%20highlights%20from%20Saturday%20April%2020&sectionIs=news&searchyear=2019

Hundreds of documents and photos the police have already followed up on and eliminated!


“The letter was from Wayne Aird, who wrote from HMP Wakefield where he is serving life for the murder of a man he committed two months after Dando’s death.
He claimed that senior paramilitaries chose her as a target because of her links to police through her work presenting Crimewatch, and that IRA involvement was being covered up so as not to harm the Northern Ireland peace process.
His letter stated that he was part of a four-man IRA hit squad that shot Ms Dando with a 9mm bullet before escaping in Land Rovers to a safe house.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1107535/jill-dando-bbc-documentary-murder-ira-who-killed-jill-dando-spt


“Another theory finds further motivation for the killer in Dando's Crimewatch work.
In 1996 Kenneth Noye was sentenced to life in prison for a 1996 road rage killing with the help of a Crimewatch  appeal.
According to a report from the now defunct National Criminal Intelligence Service, a barman called Joe owed Noye money and may have opted to settle his debts by targeting Dando.
The report said: “Joe runs a bar in Tenerife, frequented by leading ex-pat criminals. He's described as a frustrated gangster reputed to owe money to Kenny Noye. There’s been talk Joe has been keen to rehabilitate his reputation with gangster creditors.”
It does not seem that Joe was ever traced
.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/jill-dando-killing-six-theories-14212094
« Last Edit: April 20, 2019, 11:09:10 AM by Nicholas »
A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Truth Is Putting On Its Shoes

Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #366 on: April 20, 2019, 02:00:31 PM »
The prosecution case in the Jill Dando trial was attacked yesterday by Michael Mansfield QC, who claimed there was no conclusive proof that Barry George was in the street where the television presenter lived on the day of her murder.
He countered allegations that the defendant had produced a false alibi to cover his tracks and claimed that the police search of his home was "higgledy piggledy". Mr Mansfield also said that residue which the prosecution alleged was from a firearm could have come from accidental contamination. A fibre found on Ms Dando's coat proved nothing.

George, 41, of Fulham, west London denies murdering the Crimewatch presenter who was shot through the head with a single bullet on the doorstep of her Fulham home in April 1999.

On the second day of his closing speech, Mr Mansfield said the prosecution had tried to blend a number of sightings to form a whole. But descriptions given by witnesses did not add up. "There is no unity of clothing, complexion or hairstyle."

Only one of 13 witnesses had provided any kind of basis for saying George had been in Gowan Avenue where Ms Dando lived. "Do you feel it is fair to say there is an unassailable bond between this defendant and the murder?"

Mr Mansfield considered a suggestion from the prosecution that George had tried to create an alibi by going to the Hammersmith and Fulham Action for Disability. The prosecution claimed that George returned home after the shooting and then went to the centre.

He said: "You do have to ask yourself the question, first of all, if he is the gunman having gone home, why go out at all?"

On the forensic evidence, Mr Mansfield said the prosecution has claimed that a particle found in George's coat pocket was residue caused by the discharge of a firearm.

But the coat could have easily been contaminated by any unsuspecting officer as the search procedure was "higgledy piggledy".

Mr Mansfield added this was the first time any prosecution had relied on the evidence of a single particle found a year after the event. "We hope, members of the jury, it will be the last."

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/jun/23/jilldando.stevenmorris


“Jurors who convicted the man accused of murdering Jill Dando reached a safe conclusion after reviewing compelling circumstantial evidence that left "no basis whatsoever" for the court of appeal to tamper with the verdict, a hearing heard yesterday.
Orlando Pownall, QC, said at the appeal court that last year's trial of Barry George, 42, was conducted fairly and criticisms of Mr Justice Gage were without foundation.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/jul/17/jilldando.nickhopkins
« Last Edit: April 20, 2019, 02:04:32 PM by Nicholas »
A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Truth Is Putting On Its Shoes

Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #367 on: April 20, 2019, 02:09:10 PM »
"But his Irish sister – who recently launched an appeal for witnesses to
help her brother – said last night that although the family had
investigated the possibility of him doing one, they have been advised by
doctors against it.

Speaking from her Cork home, Michelle Diskin said: “We have thought
about it and taken medical advice but we have been told a lie test
wouldn’t work properly because of the condition he is in.

He has suffered brain damage as a result of his years of having
epilepsy and it was main reason why he didn’t take the stand in his own
defence at his trail.


“It’s not so much that a lie test wouldn’t work, but it’s more that it
would have a better chance of not working properly because of his
condition and then Barry would just end up in a worse position than he
already is.
https://randomirishnews.com/2006/04/21/jill-dando-killer-barry-george-too-sick-for-lie-test/


"During medical examinations before his trial, it was discovered that George had suffered severe brain damage from a physical injury while in his 20s. Michelle says he does not know how it occurred, although she conjectures that perhaps it was something to do with his 'Steve Majors' phase
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-135212/My-brother-didnt-kill-Jill.html#ixzz5DQUKMFv4

Michelle Diskin Bates visited her brother in prison following his conviction for sexual related offences but did not see him again for another 12 years until she heard on the news he had been arrested for the murder of Jill Dando.
A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Truth Is Putting On Its Shoes

Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #368 on: April 20, 2019, 03:47:27 PM »
Excerpts from Michelle Diskin Bates book Stand Against Injustice re Surj Singh Clair.

“The News of the World had relented and decided they would pay Barry his full fee, thanks to the Trojan efforts of Surj Singh Clair. Barry’s own solicitor had been unable to do anything to help Barry, though he still received his fifteen percent. Surj, of course, did not earn a penny from Barry for his efforts, because he was representing MOJO and not himself.

“Surj Singh Clair came when he could. He had his own business in PR, but volunteered those skills to MOJO, pro bono.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2019, 09:02:10 AM by Nicholas »
A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Truth Is Putting On Its Shoes

Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #369 on: April 20, 2019, 04:12:46 PM »
George's agent Surjit Singh Clair said: "We have been approached by Devon Films. I can't confirm Barry's cut but it will easily run into six figures."
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/lights--camera--cash-in-1656288


'Barry has mentioned visiting the grave a few times,' his spokesman Surjit Singh Clair told me this week.
'It's something he definitely wants to do. He just feels there's a connection between them  -  they've been tragically brought together.'
George has also discussed his plans with his confidante, his sister, Michelle Diskin.
'Barry spent eight years in jail for a murder he didn't do,' Mr Singh Clair said. 'He's become entwined with her life and she has played a huge part in his. He wants to exorcise Jill's ghost, and say: "I don't want you to think I hold any hard feelings against you."
'If he looks respectable and takes flowers, and perhaps goes with a friend or relative rather than slinking around on his own, then it wouldn't look too bad. It's his personal choice.'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1076331/Obsessed-visiting-Jill-Dandos-grave-acting-erratically-Barry-George-man-edge.html


Referring to George’s stalking past, his spokesman Surjit Singh Clair said: “He won’t be doing that kind of thing again.”
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/46472/50k-a-year-to-guard-Jill-misfit


“Barry George, the man acquitted last week of killing presenter Jill Dando, is being represented by freelance publicist Surjit Singh Clair. Singh Clair has also represented the Miscarriages of Justice Organisation.
https://www.prweek.com/article/837937/the-week


Surjit Singh Clair said Mr George, 48, acquitted last week of murdering TV presenter Jill Dando, now realised his past stalking and pestering of women was wrong.
He said: "It was inappropriate. He was lonely at the time and that was the only way he knew to communicate. But he said he has learnt from that and he won't be doing that kind of thing again.
"It's a case of self-policing for Barry. He now realises it is wrong."
Mr Clair was speaking after it emerged officials want to keep a close eye on Mr George amid fears over his former lifestyle. Police, prison and probation staff are discussing whether they can put in place special supervision arrangements.

https://www.express.co.uk/celebrity-news/55418/Cleared-George-no-danger-to-women


”Surjit Singh Clair, George's spokesman, said yesterday: 'Barry has still got to decide if he is going to go on a council's housing list or whether he is going to find private accommodation.
'The one thing he won't do is hide. He's a free man and he'll be happy to show his face in public.'
Mr Clair said 'early discussions' were also under way for George to take a lie detector test, which he has insisted he wants to do

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/taxpayers-fork-out-50000-a-year-to-keep-tabs-on-barry-george-6817373.html
« Last Edit: April 20, 2019, 04:38:07 PM by Nicholas »
A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Truth Is Putting On Its Shoes

Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #370 on: April 20, 2019, 09:12:23 PM »
“Why did the police pick on George when the evidence against him was so weak? His sister, Michelle Diskin put forward a plausible reason after the trial:
My feeling is that Barry looked disposable. They thought he could disappear and no one would notice. They thought it was just him and his elderly mum. They didn’t realise he had a large family network.
(Daily Telegraph 3/7/01)

Michelle Diskin Bates visited her brother in prison following his conviction for sexual related offences but did not see him again for another 12 years until she heard on the news he had been arrested for the murder of Jill Dando.

The police also found two notes in George’s handwriting in his flat. These read:

“Although I did not know Jill Dando personally, my cousin Freddy Mercury was interviewed by her back in 1986.

“I was present with him, so for this reason I feel it’s poignant to express together the situation of Jill’s death and my coming to Christ. (Daily Telegraph 5/5/01)

« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 05:05:15 AM by John »
A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Truth Is Putting On Its Shoes

Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #371 on: April 20, 2019, 11:11:49 PM »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02n7rgj

“Michelle Bates believes the circumstances which lead to her brother Barry George's wrongful conviction for the murder of Jill Dando should be investigated because they were not "standard practice".   Michelle Bates' brother Barry was convicted of murdering Jill Dando in 2001 but was acquitted at a retrial in 2008.   His lawyers are demanding an inquiry following a series of reports in The Mirror that claim Mr George could have been cleared earlier if psychological reports had been given to his defence team.   The Crown Prosecution Service has said that the any information given to Michelle Bates was given in "good faith" and The Metropolitan Police say they "fully investigated the circumstances into the murder of Jill Dando".  This clip is originally from 5 live Breakfast on April 1 2015.
A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Truth Is Putting On Its Shoes

Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #372 on: April 20, 2019, 11:21:05 PM »
“Michelle Bates believes the circumstances which lead to her brother Barry George's wrongful conviction for the murder of Jill Dando should be investigated because they were not "standard practice".   Michelle Bates' brother Barry was convicted of murdering Jill Dando in 2001 but was acquitted at a retrial in 2008.   His lawyers are demanding an inquiry following a series of reports in The Mirror that claim Mr George could have been cleared earlier if psychological reports had been given to his defence team.   The Crown Prosecution Service has said that the any information given to Michelle Bates was given in "good faith" and The Metropolitan Police say they "fully investigated the circumstances into the murder of Jill Dando".  This clip is originally from 5 live Breakfast on April 1 2015.

4th April 2015
“Jill Dando murder documentary: Watch Mark Williams-Thomas' explosive film in full after year-long investigation
The compelling 47-minute film came after the double award-winning investigative reporter pored over more than 52,000 documents, plus hours of previously unseen footage

“Mark, honoured by the Royal Television Society for his Exposure film unmasking Jimmy Savile as a predatory paedophile, worked alongside a Mirror team.

The documentary features full interviews with experts connected with the case who raise grave fears the original police investigation into Jill’s 1999 murder was flawed.

Mark explores in detail why potentially key lines of enquiry may have been missed, as police concentrated their efforts on nailing Jill’s neighbour Barry Georg
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jill-dando-murder-documentary-watch-5460623
A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Truth Is Putting On Its Shoes

Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #373 on: April 21, 2019, 07:23:23 PM »
BG was found guilty at his first trial by a majority verdict 10:1.  The sole piece of forensic evidence used at this trial was later found to have been fatally flawed.  As such a re-trial was ordered and the jury found him not guilty by a unanimous verdict.  Unfortunately we do not know how jurors arrive at verdicts ie what weight, if any, jurors place on the various pieces of evidence.  For all we know they may have found BG guilty exclusively on the particle of gunshot residue.

I think it unlikely BG was the perp based on the fact unless he had Jill under surveillance he could not possibly know she was going to arrive at Gowan Ave when she did.  Therefore he struck lucky.  Also various people claim to have seen what they believe was the perp leaving the soc/vicinity and yet the early e-fit does not appear to depict BG and they were unable to pick out BG during an identity parade.  Plus imo the way in which the murder was carried out would appear to involve a highly skilled hit person and there's no evidence BG was capable of operating in such a way.

Its not a case of whether or not I like it.  Its a case of whether or not the jurors liked it at BG's 2008 re-trial and clearly they didn't hence he was found not guilty by a unanimous verdict.

Fatally flawed in that it was unable to withstand forensic scrutiny hence it was no longer available to the prosecution at the 2008 trial.

Quote
N Fenton et al - “When neutral evidence still has probative value: implications from the Barry George case
Read more here: https://www.ucl.ac.uk/lagnado-lab/publications/lagnado/ScienceAndJustice.pdf


“Barry George’s first appeal (on the basis of identification) in 2002 was unsuccessful. In the mean time Dr Ian Evett, who worked for the Forensic Science Service (FSS), became concerned about the way the FDR evidence was used. Evett is a pioneer of a technique called Case Assessment and Interpretation (CAI) that stresses the need to consider both the prosecution and defence likelihoods for any piece of forensic evidence to determine its probative value [24][25]. Evett was concerned that only the defence likelihood had been discussed at the trial. In his view the evidence of a very low probability that the FDR in the coat pocket could have been caused by contamination was essentially a statement about the defence likelihood. Specifically, that P(E | Hd) was ‘very low’ where E is the FDR evidence and Hd is the defence hypothesis “BG did not fire the gun that shot JD”.
Hence, Evett argued that P(E | Hd) had been presented to the jury without also presenting P(E | Hp), where Hp is the prosecution hypothesis “BG fired the gun that shot JD”. A low value for P(E | Hd), when presented in isolation, can easily be wrongly interpreted as implying a low value for P(Hd) – a problem that is exacerbated by the prosecutor’s fallacy [17]. Evett, therefore, asked Mr Keeley to provide probabilities for both P(E | Hd) and P(E | Hp). Keeley estimated that both P(E | Hd) and P(E | Hp) were equal to 1/100. Since Hp and Hd are mutually exclusive and exhaustive hypotheses it would follow correctly that the evidence had no probative value.
Evett took no action in relation to his conclusions, but in 2006 the FSS introduced new guidelines for reporting single particles and low level FDR [1]. Subsequently, in response to a request from the Criminal Cases Review Commission, the FSS reappraised the FDR evidence in the original trial and concluded that:
“The significance of the FDR findings in this case can be put into context by considering two alternative propositions:

Mr George is the man who shot Ms Dando
Mr George had nothing to do with the incident.

In our opinion the probability of finding a single particle of discharge residue in Mr George's coat pocket would have been the same, regardless of which of the above propositions was true. The FDR evidence is thus inconclusive. In our opinion it provides no assistance to anyone asked to judge which proposition is true.”
« Last Edit: April 21, 2019, 07:37:25 PM by Nicholas »
A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Truth Is Putting On Its Shoes

Offline Nicholas

Re: Barry George revisited.
« Reply #374 on: April 21, 2019, 08:00:29 PM »

“Barry George’s first appeal (on the basis of identification) in 2002 was unsuccessful. In the mean time Dr Ian Evett, who worked for the Forensic Science Service (FSS), became concerned about the way the FDR evidence was used. Evett is a pioneer of a technique called Case Assessment and Interpretation (CAI) that stresses the need to consider both the prosecution and defence likelihoods for any piece of forensic evidence to determine its probative value [24][25]. Evett was concerned that only the defence likelihood had been discussed at the trial. In his view the evidence of a very low probability that the FDR in the coat pocket could have been caused by contamination was essentially a statement about the defence likelihood. Specifically, that P(E | Hd) was ‘very low’ where E is the FDR evidence and Hd is the defence hypothesis “BG did not fire the gun that shot JD”.
Hence, Evett argued that P(E | Hd) had been presented to the jury without also presenting P(E | Hp), where Hp is the prosecution hypothesis “BG fired the gun that shot JD”. A low value for P(E | Hd), when presented in isolation, can easily be wrongly interpreted as implying a low value for P(Hd) – a problem that is exacerbated by the prosecutor’s fallacy [17]. Evett, therefore, asked Mr Keeley to provide probabilities for both P(E | Hd) and P(E | Hp). Keeley estimated that both P(E | Hd) and P(E | Hp) were equal to 1/100. Since Hp and Hd are mutually exclusive and exhaustive hypotheses it would follow correctly that the evidence had no probative value.
Evett took no action in relation to his conclusions, but in 2006 the FSS introduced new guidelines for reporting single particles and low level FDR [1]. Subsequently, in response to a request from the Criminal Cases Review Commission, the FSS reappraised the FDR evidence in the original trial and concluded that:
“The significance of the FDR findings in this case can be put into context by considering two alternative propositions:

Mr George is the man who shot Ms Dando
Mr George had nothing to do with the incident.

In our opinion the probability of finding a single particle of discharge residue in Mr George's coat pocket would have been the same, regardless of which of the above propositions was true. The FDR evidence is thus inconclusive. In our opinion it provides no assistance to anyone asked to judge which proposition is true.”

5.2.3 Failure to properly identify multiple different hypotheses and their relationships
Most of the above problems and confusions would have been avoided by a clearly stated set of hypotheses and evidence so that every explicit (or implicit) statement of conditional probability could have been clearly stated as P(A | B) where A and B were unambiguous.
But the problems go much deeper because it is clear that there are many different hypotheses being considered in the evidence (and often these are being confused) and that it is inconceivable that the experts could have provided all of the appropriate likelihoods to come to the conclusions that they did. Here are examples of just some of the pairs of different prosecution and defence hypotheses that are mentioned in the Appeal ruling (although we accept that some of these are semantically equivalent) [1]:
1. Para 18:
Prosecution: FDR came from gun that killed victim
Defence: FDR came from some extraneous source
2. Para 22:
Prosecution: FDR recovered from BG’s coat pocket, as he was the killer of the victim
Defence: FDR recovered from BG’s coat pocket, but he was not the killer of the victim
3. Para 23:
Prosecution: BG is the man who shot victim
Defence: BG had nothing to do with the incident
4. Para 26 (i):
Prosecution: FDR came from a gun fired by BG
Defence: FDR came from some other source
5. Para 26 (ii):
Prosecution: The wearer of the coat fired the gun
Defence: The wearer of the coat did not fire the gun (the defence hypothesis is unspecified in the appeal report, but this is one possibility.)
6. Para 27:
Prosecution: FDR came from a gun fired at the time of the victim’s murder
Defence: FDR came from some other source
7. Para 28:
Prosecution: FDR found as a result of BG firing a gun
Defence: FDR found as a result of secondary contamination
8. Para 32:
Prosecution: The particle is FDR
Defence: The particle is not FDR
9. Para 33:
Prosecution: FDR came from ammunition that killed the victim
Defence: FDR came from any other ammunition that had that kind of percussion primer
10. Para 37:
Prosecution: FDR did not come from secondary contamination
Defence: FDR came from secondary contamination
11. Para 38:
Prosecution: FDR came from the cartridge that killed the victim
Defence: FDR came from some innocent source
12. Para 50:
Prosecution: FDR was deposited on the coat other than innocently
Defence: FDR was deposited on the coat innocently

That there must be far more hypotheses involved is evident from the fact that numerous probabilistic and quasi-probabilistic statements mentioned in the trial are not encapsulated by the grossly simple original Hp, Hd and E alone

[1]. A full set of is provided in supplement [38] Section 11.
http://www.eecs.qmul.ac.uk/~ahsu/papers/BarryGeorge.pdf
A Lie Can Travel Halfway Around the World While the Truth Is Putting On Its Shoes