David Payne and his visit to the McCann's apartment hours before Madeleine disappeared.

[Lace]

Did she? I don't remember seeing that. How much easier it is when cites are provided..................

Sorry AFTER he played tennis.  So he had had a game of tennis,  Fiona saw him playing when they came up from the beach.

[G-Unit]

Sorry AFTER he played tennis.  So he had had a game of tennis,  Fiona saw him playing when they came up from the beach.

Yes, thank you Lace. I'm working on a timeline from 17.30 onwards, because Gerry said David arrived back at the tennis courts at 19.00, but Fiona said he was playing at 18.45, plus another few differences.

[faithlilly]

Yes, thank you Lace. I'm working on a timeline from 17.30 onwards, because Gerry said David arrived back at the tennis courts at 19.00, but Fiona said he was playing at 18.45, plus another few differences.

And from Diane Webster

"Concerning the day yesterday, she went to the beach with the children, her son-in-law and her daughter. They arrived there at around 3.45pm and left at around 6.15pm to go to the tennis courts where she stayed until 7pm. The informant then went to the apartment with the small children and ten minutes later, her son-in-law, David, joined them. With her son-in-law's help, they bathed the children. "

[pathfinder73]

"I think David went to the apartment and then up to Gerry’s.  I played tennis for around an hour to an hour and a half, Dan the tennis coach was also present, as were some other male guests and Gerry we played a mixture of singles and doubles.
The kids came up with Jane, Fiona and Rachael from the beach, but not the MC CANN’S children I presume that they were at the apartment.  They stayed for a short while before going back to the apartment to be bathed and put to bed.  I got back to the flat around 20:00hours as we were running late we had to take the rackets back with us."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RUSSELL-OBRIEN_ROGATORY.htm

FP: Erm, and I know Dave had said to me later, because he, erm, after tennis he'd said he'd checked on Kate and the kids before going to tennis'.
 
 1485
 'Who was that, sorry, Dave''
 
 Reply
 'Dave, yeah. So he'd mentioned that later, so I don't know at what point I knew that, but'.
 
 1485
 'Was that off his own back or was he told''
 
 Reply
 'No, he said, what did he check off his own back''
 
 1485
 'Yeah'.
 
 Reply
 'I don't know actually, I don't know'.
 
 1485
 'How did that come into your conversation''
 
 Reply
 'Because he was saying how angelic they all looked and he said to Kate when we all sat down at the Tapas table as well and he was sort of joking how they looked like perfect children, because they were all sat there, all clean in their pyjamas, having a story'.
 
 1485
 'Yeah. But when did he, specifically, when did he tell you''
 
 Reply
 'That he'd done that''
 
 1485
 'Done that, yeah'.
 
 Reply
 'I think it was when we were getting the kids ready for bed and we were back in our apartment'.
 
 1485
 'Right. So what time did he come back then from his tennis''
 
 Reply
 'I'd say, if we came back about seven, he was about ten minutes after that, so about ten past seven, quarter past seven, something like that'.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

 &%+((£

[pathfinder73]

It was past six before the girls said, well they've moved this forward for us and we're not turning up to the social tennis so you guys should go. So we finished and set off, probably about twenty past six, sometime around there, because it was after when we'd got them to move, we were already late, so I think if we'd said, if they'd move it to six thirty and we're setting off at six twenty, I would have been happy that we could have made it there in time, but we'd already gone past the time when I thought we won't be able to go because we were already so late'.

00.07.20 4078 'Was that you, David and'.

Reply 'Russell'.
 
4078 'Russell'.

Reply 'It was men's social. Erm, so we went back up, erm, back to, well I went back to the apartment, got the tennis gear and back onto the courts or back to the courts area, erm, and the other guys went to get their stuff. Erm, and I think Dave said that he'd been to the apartment, but I don't know that for definite, that's just something I think has come out, I didn't know anything about that. So we went, got our stuff and came back to the courts, which were already in play, because the social had already started. And Gerry was down playing on a court, I think there was only three of them, I think the, erm, the coach, whose name I can't remember, the tennis coach, the blonde haired bloke, erm, was playing to make up the numbers. And so we waited and watched for a little while

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm

[Robittybob1]

Yes, thank you Lace. I'm working on a timeline from 17.30 onwards, because Gerry said David arrived back at the tennis courts at 19.00, but Fiona said he was playing at 18.45, plus another few differences.

When you say you are working on a timeline,  how is it looking so far?

[John]

This thread has now been edited.

A couple of points in passing.  If members feel that a post or specific comment is unacceptable and has been missed by the moderators they are free to report them in the usual way.

Some members have raised the question as to what is the point of this thread.  As justification I can only point to the rogatory statements relating to the period from 6pm to 8pm and ponder why LP were so interested in these movements?

[Alice Purjorick]

This thread has now been edited.

A couple of points in passing.  If members feel that a post or specific comment is unacceptable and has been As justificationmissed by the moderators they are free to report them in the usual way.

Some members have raised the question as to what is the point of this thread.  I can only point to the rogatory statements relating to the period from 6pm to 8pm and ponder why LP were so interested in these movements?

Maybe the LP were attempting to put a handle on the time of the last independent sighting of MM ?

[mercury]

Why?
Gerry mccanns statement of 10th May says Payne visited the flat at 6.30
Did the LP or PJ not know that? Course they did didnt they? I suppose policemen are human too and miss things or fail to communcate, hmm


Mark harrison though in his end July  07  report was under the impression that the last known independent of family sightng was in the kids club
?
Mark Warner Creche at Praia Da Luz.

This is the location of the last confirmed sighting by a person independent of family members of Madeleine McCann. Although this location was within the original search area it may well benefit from a further search using enhanced detecting methods for human remains. This will depend on the size of any outside grounds and concealed areas inside the building.

[mercury]

I think the Portuguese police achieved everything they wanted when it turned out in the end that the tapas group were unwilling to cooperate in a child disappearance investigation.

With all the consular govt media and other support they had the excuse for not going back for a reconstruction in case they were fitted up is extremely hilarious at best
They just couldnt be bothered, thought their pis were the better in solving it, thought the pj were monkeys to have to jump whenever they tried
To date not even the highly lauded sy  solved it

Theyre positively pathetic in their behaviours the lot of them

No stone unturned they all said, their actions said the opposite alot of the time

[Robittybob1]

With all the consular govt media and other support they had the excuse for not going back for a reconstruction in case they were fitted up is extremely hilarious at best
They just couldnt be bothered, thought their pis were the better in solving it, thought the pj were monkeys to have to jump whenever they tried
To date not even the highly lauded sy  solved it

Theyre positively pathetic in their behaviours the lot of them

No stone unturned they all said, their actions said the opposite alot of the time

Let's have a go ourselves Mercury.

[mercury]

Its up to those who professed no stone unturned
Not us!!!

[Aletheias footsteps]

I am late to the party here!  However, this business of Payne's visit to the McCann apartment is a real puzzle because he, ROB and Matt were all still in the Paraiso restaurant at close on 18.14 hrs according to the CCTV footage anyway (13_12_VOLUME_XIIa_Processo_Page_3273.jpg)

So .... ...... must have been dashing about like a lunatic IF he went to the tennis courts, also went to 5A, also went to his own apt to get changed (either before or after visiting 5A), then went back to courts to play some tennis, and finally helped Dianne, (AND/OR Fiona) put his kids to bed at his own apartment around 7.00pm (their statements don't seem to agree on anything, particularly times!!!)

So I tend to think that the whole thing about seeing Kate and the 'little angels in white' never happened .... maybe just another little fairy tale to make us believe that Madeleine was alive and well after tea-time on 3rd May??

 
P.S. Sorry I realise that all this has been covered by you all already


Edited to remove libel.

[G-Unit]

I would never accuse witnesses of lying because there are many reasons why statements may not mesh with known facts. The Paraiso stills are facts, and very few of the T7 got their times right. Why? Because they were on holiday and not clock-watching is one obvious reason.

On the 3rd May the group had two deadlines only. The men's tennis which they felt they should attend because the group had requested that the evening tennis sessions started later than had been planned, and the Tapas meal booking.

Someone knew the time at the Paraiso because they realised that they were late for the tennis. We can assume the time was checked when in the apartments so as to be ready for their meal booking.

At some point Russell realised he needed to collect his daughter before she went to high tea, so another time check there. [Although his timings and Cat's vary by an hour]

Times are interesting, but what is important is if people seem to be in two places at once, or fit activities into a timeframe where they can't fit.

The last sight of the three men at the Paraiso is timed at pretty much 6.14. The distance from the Paraiso to the Tapas entrance is 750m, a 9 minute walk. So David Payne could definitely have been at the tennis courts at 6.30pm.

The next still, however, is timed at 6.36, a gap of 22 minutes after the previous one. In theory the men could have left at 6.35, arriving at the Tapas at 6. 44.

Another interesting fact is that it would have taken longer for the women to walk to the Tapas. They had three pushchairs to deal with on narrow pavements plus a two and three year old walking, I assume. So they most likely arrived at 6.45 at the earliest, but more likely after that.

Other interesting questions emerge from the Paraiso stills. At one point all the adults are there, as are two babies and possibly Russell's baby in her pushchair.[17.52] I'm not sure if David has a child by the hand as he takes his seat. Is Russell's eldest hidden behind him and his pushchair?

In the final still I can't see the older two children at all. They are there in the previous still when all the fathers are standing, but not visible when the mothers are preparing to leave. I am open to correction though. My eyes aren't what they used to be.

Finally, did one mother leave her pushchair outside the restaurant?