Author Topic: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible and Reliable Expert Witness?  (Read 17985 times)

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david1819

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Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible and Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #60 on: January 31, 2018, 01:11:39 AM »
I see you've so far been unable to rise to the challenge David.

Why would I bother looking? I know you cant establish the elements came from a gun. It is inferential evidence.

But if you want to find alternative possibilities so the swaps can remain a "mystery" fine. But at least find one that is plausible.

There is also lead in chocolate but its so low it would surpass the detection limit of the machine the staff were using. You could probably put a whole bar of chocolate in the machine and not get a result.

Could Sheila have played in soil before going to bed? No because like chocolate the lead levels parts per million (ppm) in soil are so low. To get a reading her hands would have to be buried in the stuff. And that wont go unnocticed if they were.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible and Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #61 on: January 31, 2018, 08:46:29 AM »
Why would I bother looking? I know you cant establish the elements came from a gun. It is inferential evidence.

But if you want to find alternative possibilities so the swaps can remain a "mystery" fine. But at least find one that is plausible.

There is also lead in chocolate but its so low it would surpass the detection limit of the machine the staff were using. You could probably put a whole bar of chocolate in the machine and not get a result.

Could Sheila have played in soil before going to bed? No because like chocolate the lead levels parts per million (ppm) in soil are so low. To get a reading her hands would have to be buried in the stuff. And that wont go unnocticed if they were.

There is no mystery to the swabs.  If our hands were swabbed right now they would contain various chemicals from handling of everyday objects including amongst other things copper and zinc.  Chemicals would also present from from food ingested and the biological system.

The UK gov identified high profile quality failings at FSS during 80's and IMO these tests are indicative of this. 

The tests have no scientific basis to them and as such jurors were misled over SC's hands.

Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible And Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #62 on: February 03, 2018, 12:52:35 PM »
Off topic but for whatever reason I Googled my dads brother who died in WW2 and found a roll of honour entry for him at his former school.   8(>((

PAGE
   
Cecil Arthur
   
Sergeant (Navigator) 1579628, 90 Squadron, Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve. Died 11th June 1944. Aged 20. Son of Arthur Horace and Edith M. Page, of Bedford. Buried in DREUX COMMUNAL CEMETERY, Eure-et-Loir, France. Row 2. Grave 21.

http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Bedfordshire/BedfordModernSchoolWW2Memorial.html

It was only through this thread and talking about Prof Knight and VDM being in military that I thought about my Dad's brother who died in action WW2 and I Googled him.  Really weird I should even think to look, anyway I've found further info so I'll put it in 'off-topic'.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Caroline

Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible and Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #63 on: February 07, 2018, 12:42:30 PM »
There is no mystery to the swabs.  If our hands were swabbed right now they would contain various chemicals from handling of everyday objects including amongst other things copper and zinc.  Chemicals would also present from from food ingested and the biological system.

The UK gov identified high profile quality failings at FSS during 80's and IMO these tests are indicative of this. 

The tests have no scientific basis to them and as such jurors were misled over SC's hands.

Check this out ..... http://ukvarminting.com/topic/29088-bestmost-accurate-sub-sonic-22lr-ammo/?do=findComment&comment=236399

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible and Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #64 on: February 09, 2018, 12:56:40 PM »
Check this out ..... http://ukvarminting.com/topic/29088-bestmost-accurate-sub-sonic-22lr-ammo/?do=findComme
nt&comment=236399

I'm assuming you're referring to:
 
Posted April 22, 2015
I use the Eley subs for paper shooting, really good but the residue is something to think about off of the head / case


Many of the contributors make reference to Eley subs but the above is the only person to mention residues.  I don't know why someone familiar with them would refer to head/case?! 


« Last Edit: February 09, 2018, 01:07:11 PM by Holly Goodhead »
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible and Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #65 on: February 09, 2018, 01:09:01 PM »
One of the contributors/posters refers to themself as 1066.  Is this NRB?
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Caroline

Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible and Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #66 on: February 09, 2018, 01:56:42 PM »
I'm assuming you're referring to:
 
Posted April 22, 2015
I use the Eley subs for paper shooting, really good but the residue is something to think about off of the head / case


Many of the contributors make reference to Eley subs but the above is the only person to mention residues. [/b].  I don't know why someone familiar with them would refer to head/case?!

You mean someone other than Fletcher? But that is still more than one - I suspect it's been said by others. I'll have a look.

There is mention of case head here too and I imagine the person who wrote it is familiar with ammo?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartridge_(firearms)

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible and Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #67 on: February 09, 2018, 03:15:32 PM »
You mean someone other than Fletcher? But that is still more than one - I suspect it's been said by others. I'll have a look.

There is mention of case head here too and I imagine the person who wrote it is familiar with ammo?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartridge_(firearms)

I was referring to those who contributed to the thread. 

The manufacturer makes clear the lubricant is a firm hydrocarbon and non-greasy.  I doubt they would get away with marketing the product in this way if it was unable to deliver:

http://www.eley.co.uk/eley-subsonic-hollow

The point of the lubrication is to improve performance.  If it was coming off on the hands prior to firearm discharge it would be useless. 

Fletcher's trial testimony involved loading cartridges which had been radically altered from the manufactured product used at WHF.  Those exhibited at trial contained holes to empty the gunpowder and primer supposedly to make safe for judge and jurors to handle.  Unless they were cleaned thoroughly then yes there would be gunpowder (black) hanging around and adhering to the firm lubricant and potentially causing black discolouration to hands as claimed by Fletcher when he loaded into mag.  Arlidge QC then interjects asking Fletcher to hold his hands up to the jury. You would think Lawson might have asked the question of Fletcher ie are these cartridges a true representation of those used at WHF or has the fact they now have holes in them and the gunpowder removed altered them resulting in the black discolouration to your hands or any other effect?

I can't see any danger in jury handling live cartridges and loading into mag providing they didn't have an opportunity to then insert the mag into the rifle!  If they wanted to be ultra cautious then I would have thought it best for the test to be carried out at the lab overseen by the experts and counsel and videoed for court.

The defence instructed Major Mead (firearms) and a chemist (re lead) by the name of Mr Edwards as we don't have their testimonies it's difficult to see whether they were able to raise effective challenges to these points or not.  I think not on the basis of the 2002 appeal.

I think simple tests carried out by forensic scientists are the way forward then it will be up to the prosecution to instruct its own experts to counter or not. 

I think the courts operate on the basis of plausibility and I don't think it's plausible to say the 500 rounds NB purchased in Nov '84 were different in some way when the product is manufactured on a production line, providing Eley can confirm no known changes/recalls.  Pretty certain forensic scientists working in ballistics will know the answer. 




Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible and Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #68 on: February 09, 2018, 03:46:00 PM »
You mean someone other than Fletcher? But that is still more than one - I suspect it's been said by others. I'll have a look.

There is mention of case head here too and I imagine the person who wrote it is familiar with ammo?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartridge_(firearms)

I cant find case head in the above link.  The following sets out the various components

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?


Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible and Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #70 on: February 12, 2018, 12:51:20 PM »
Here ..... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartridge_(firearms) - not sure what is wrong with the link when the page comes up, just click on where it says 'did you mean firearms?'

And here .....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centerfire_ammunition

Also mentioned in the document .... http://www.tncourts.gov/sites/default/files/docs/firearmshandout_1.pdf

And here .... https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=732CBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA130&lpg=PA130&dq=bullet+case+head&source=bl&ots=6aB-81qZOf&sig=KcanLz1UXyk-oSYl75kZipty-1s&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjnpPrMzp7ZAhWmK8AKHYDDA4wQ6AEI7gEwFA#v=onepage&q=bullet%20case%20head&f=false

Here also ..... https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=6YFKmuK4de4C&pg=PA63&lpg=PA63&dq=bullet+case+head&source=bl&ots=bo339WxKfL&sig=H39Tg0KLofKeXRf_grfnXBGnnN0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjnpPrMzp7ZAhWmK8AKHYDDA4wQ6AEI9AEwFg#v=onepage&q=bullet%20case%20head&f=false

Think it's a pretty common term.

Thanks.  I think there's some misunderstanding in that I thought the contributor to the thread was referring to the bullet as this is the only part coated in lubricant (parrafin wax) and couldn't understand why he was referring to the bullet as head/case or case head as it's more commonly known.

Posted April 22, 2015
I use the Eley subs for paper shooting, really good but the residue is something to think about off of the head / case


I didn't realise the bottom section can be referred to as head case or case head!  The Eley subs I believe are rimfire and the term head case or case head seems to refer to centrefire.  This is to do with the firing pin unleashing the primer as image below.

Here's a vid of a guy handling the Eley subs used at WHF and as you will see he states he likes them as they're non greasy.  There's no black discolouration to his hands either.  He does say the parrafin wax can chip off and this was my experience but it only happened when I rubbed firmly or sunk my nail in and it only produced a clear transparent wax.  This didn't happen through the normal process of loading into the mag.

@ 1.45

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fF4nvNWxqPo
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Caroline

Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible and Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #71 on: February 12, 2018, 07:06:20 PM »
Thanks.  I think there's some misunderstanding in that I thought the contributor to the thread was referring to the bullet as this is the only part coated in lubricant (parrafin wax) and couldn't understand why he was referring to the bullet as head/case or case head as it's more commonly known.

Posted April 22, 2015
I use the Eley subs for paper shooting, really good but the residue is something to think about off of the head / case


I didn't realise the bottom section can be referred to as head case or case head!  The Eley subs I believe are rimfire and the term head case or case head seems to refer to centrefire.  This is to do with the firing pin unleashing the primer as image below.

Here's a vid of a guy handling the Eley subs used at WHF and as you will see he states he likes them as they're non greasy.  There's no black discolouration to his hands either.  He does say the parrafin wax can chip off and this was my experience but it only happened when I rubbed firmly or sunk my nail in and it only produced a clear transparent wax.  This didn't happen through the normal process of loading into the mag.

@ 1.45

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fF4nvNWxqPo

Well, that's another persona expericence but clearly some have claimed they leave reside like the guy on the forum and Fletcher.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible and Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #72 on: February 12, 2018, 09:19:42 PM »
Well, that's another persona expericence but clearly some have claimed they leave reside like the guy on the forum and Fletcher.

Well the guy on the forum claims the residue originated from the case head which is the opposite end of the bullet and it's the bullet that's lubricated in paraffin wax. 

The cartridges presented at trial were not a true representation of those used at WHF since they had holes applied to remove the primer/propellant.

Have you been able to find any other claims of greasy residues?

The manufacturers state "non-greasy residue" which aligns with my visit to the gun shop.  Supported further by the above vid. 



Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Caroline

Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible and Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #73 on: February 12, 2018, 09:38:32 PM »
Well the guy on the forum claims the residue originated from the case head which is the opposite end of the bullet and it's the bullet that's lubricated in paraffin wax. 

The cartridges presented at trial were not a true representation of those used at WHF since they had holes applied to remove the primer/propellant.

Have you been able to find any other claims of greasy residues?

The manufacturers state "non-greasy residue" which aligns with my visit to the gun shop.  Supported further by the above vid.

I haven't searched yet, will give it some effort this week.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Was Malcolm Fletcher A Credible and Reliable Expert Witness?
« Reply #74 on: February 12, 2018, 09:46:28 PM »
I haven't searched yet, will give it some effort this week.

I had a look but couldn't find anything!

There was a predecessor to the Eley subs referred to as Eley subs extra plus but I don't know anything about them.  They may have been manufactured concurrently but certainly obsolete now. 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?