If the McCann's had left within a week of Madeleine's disappearance...

[pathfinder73]

Grime said there was no response during the first search, when the car seat was sealed inside the brown paper. He then asked officers to put a slit in the paper and move the car seat to another room.

And second time around, Morse sniffed out the seat ...

How much is that doggie in the OPEN window?
The one with the waggly tail.
How much is that doggie in the OPEN window?
I do hope that doggie WILL FAIL. 

[pegasus]

It is curious to read that the cadaver dog could not detect a cadaver-contaminated object in a brown paper bag  yet a trained dog could detect scent on a key buried in a  bucket of sand. Of course, we have no information if the bag was bog-standard brown paper, which is gas-permeable, or one treated with a wax/ plastic coating making it non-permeable.

Sand is gas-permeable.
Sealed waxed paper is not gas-permeable.
Until you make a hole in it.

[misty]

Sand is gas-permeable.
Sealed waxed paper is not gas-permeable.
Until you make a hole in it.

We haven't been told the constitution of the brown paper wrapping or the type of sand used.

[pegasus]

We haven't been told the constitution of the brown paper wrapping or the type of sand used.

There was a recent London case, involving a dog like Eddie, and I notice there is not a thread questioning the professionalism of that dog and its handler or the training and prcedures used.
Mr Grime seems IMO an expert, have you considered that his dog Ed possibly provides useful intelligence for scenarios other than the IMO incorrect "theydunit" theory? 

[misty]

There was a recent London case, involving a dog like Eddie, and I notice there is not a thread questioning the professionalism of that dog and its handler or the training and prcedures used.
Mr Grime seems IMO an expert, have you considered that his dog Ed possibly provides useful intelligence for scenarios other than the IMO incorrect "theydunit" theory?

I believe that the dogs serve a very useful purpose in many circumstances, but, like humans, are not perfect and have limitations. For example, if Madeleine's corpse was really buried in the wasteland in a sealed plastic container, I doubt that the dogs would find her, as per the car seat & the brown paper..
 I also believe that Eddie & Keela found what they were trained to find in Pdl. Quite why so much prompting occurred is another matter entirely.

[sadie]

There was a recent London case, involving a dog like Eddie, and I notice there is not a thread questioning the professionalism of that dog and its handler or the training and prcedures used.
Mr Grime seems IMO an expert, have you considered that his dog Ed possibly provides useful intelligence for scenarios other than the IMO incorrect "theydunit" theory?

The dogs were excellent, but the interpretataions afterwards were rubbishy.  Amaral just didn't understand things .... or he didn't want to.

Martin did call Eddie back repeatedly and tapped things.  Would you consider that the best practice? 

A lot of time was spent going over the second Mccann apartment, and Eddie didn't alert for some time.  How come that we accept that there was nothing to alert to in the OC apartments which he was whizzed around?  It took quite some time in the second Mccann apartment and he didn't spend nearly as much time in any of the other Tapas group apartments


When he went around 5A he alerted to some blood but we know that someone else staying there later, bled heavily in that apartment ... so we cant take too much notice of that, can we?. 

Also he made at least one major mistake when he took CCat out of that cupboard in flat 2 ...and pronounced that Ccat had caused the alert.

As we all saw , it was the pile of folders / papers on top of the counter that caused the alert.  We all  make mistakes and that was easy to do ....but that was a major mistake,  IMO

[pegasus]

I believe that the dogs serve a very useful purpose in many circumstances, but, like humans, are not perfect and have limitations. For example, if Madeleine's corpse was really buried in the wasteland in a sealed plastic container, I doubt that the dogs would find her, as per the car seat & the brown paper..
 I also believe that Eddie & Keela found what they were trained to find in Pdl. Quite why so much prompting occurred is another matter entirely.

Prompting, handler knowing exactly which property she is examining, no placebo properties, pollution of crime scene by dozens of people walking through it for many days and nights, all those happened in the another case too but I don't see anyone criticising the procedures or professionalism there, although to be fair what the dog said was treated as impossible rubbish. For a while.
 

[pathfinder73]

At the end of the day the dog is trained all his life NOT to bark unless he finds what he has been professionally trained to find. Eddie was the best. Look at the Prout case. They had nothing until Eddie's positive alert. That changed the whole case. His alerts will not be ignored by SY!

[misty]

Prompting, handler knowing exactly which property she is examining, no placebo properties, pollution of crime scene by dozens of people walking through it for many days and nights, all those happened in the another case too but I don't see anyone criticising the procedures or professionalism there, although to be fair what the dog said was treated as impossible rubbish. For a while.

If you're referring to the TS case, I think the role of the dogs & their handlers left a lot to be desired. However, as a result was achieved, I doubt that too much emphasis will be placed on that particular failing.
It will be interesting to learn whether the dogs played any role in the discovery of AG's body.

[pegasus]

If you're referring to the TS case, I think the role of the dogs & their handlers left a lot to be desired. However, as a result was achieved, I doubt that too much emphasis will be placed on that particular failing.
It will be interesting to learn whether the dogs played any role in the discovery of AG's body.

The failing there was certainly not the EVRD and handler (who gave the exact solution) it was the initial discarding by others of that intelligence.

[misty]

The failing there was certainly not the EVRD and handler (who gave the exact solution) it was the decision by others to initially discard their intelligence.

I don't know what the official line is regarding the failure to locate the body sooner - has a report been published yet? If the dogs & their handlers were ignored by others, does that mean the system has no faith in the dogs?

[pegasus]

I don't know what the official line is regarding the failure to locate the body sooner - has a report been published yet? If the dogs & their handlers were ignored by others, does that mean the system has no faith in the dogs?

Just IMO, ignored first time because peeps had already searched there, brought in again about 3 days later and this time not ignored, if not for them the evidence would probaly be gone and the case unsolved, all just IMO, might be wrong, etc