Claims the Portuguese are dragging their heels in the search for Madeleine.

[Alice Purjorick]

Quote from: Carana on December 28, 2014, 04:37:33 PM

    I don't think that the PT authorities are "dragging their feet" - they have a complicated bureaucratic system with few resources.

    We may have a tendency to forget that Portugal is a relatively young democracy and change takes time. They started with a Constitution and judicial codes that are constantly being refined (although some aspects of the procedural codes seem to be an attempt to deal with an overwhelming backlog).

    You can't suddenly fire the entire PJ "old guard" or those who have progressed through the ranks under their patronage without creating an internal rumpus, particularly if you don't have the resources to inspire and train the upcoming generation.

    Even back in Amaral's day, I found João Carlos to be a decent cop (a few mistakes, but none of us were in his shoes at that chaotic time). There are probably quite a few others who worked very hard and whose names haven't attracted any attention.

    I found the post-Amaral era's PJ reports to be a fair analysis of the status at the time.

    I doubt that UK / PT cooperation has only been one-way. There have probably been lessons about best practices in difficult circumstances learned by both.


As usual a very thoughtful informative post.

The transition from dictatorship to democracy can't have been easy ... I've just looked up Salazar to find out he was in power from 1932 - 1968. 
Wow! that is some period of time for all the institutions in a country to be under the influence of one political ideology.  That alone would justify the need for a shake up.

I think your assessment that the PJ and SY will be on a learning curve and picking up ideas on best practice from each other is a sound one. 

IMO their co-operative working is one of the positives coming out of the present investigation.

I imagine there will be a lot of networking going on which will be beneficial in all sorts of cases in the future.

I know there are a lot of small minds around who can't see any further than the last FOI request about the costs who are incapable of appreciating that a lot of barriers will be getting demolished as the officers of both countries learn more about each others' professional practice.

Having said that, I feel that there have been frustrating delays (DNA requests ... searches) and in the interests of expediency I cannot understand why the bureaucracy cannot have been relaxed and cut to a minimum; maybe it was for all we know.

Interesting comments. Are you both suggesting that post dictatorship it will take up to two generations to change?
Do you have evidence this is the case in Portugal? Have you tested the theory against the three other West European dictatorships which have become democracies in last two to three  generations?

[Eleanor]

Interesting comments. Are you both suggesting that post dictatorship it will take up to two generations to change?
Do you have evidence this is the case in Portugal? Have you tested the theory against the three other West European dictatorships which have become democracies in last two to three  generations?

Perhaps it's just pertinent to Portugal.  I don't know because I am only interested in Portugal at the moment.  But you have to admit that their Judicial System is in a frightful mess.
And just how many of their PJ Officers have been indicted for Torture in recent years?

As for dragging their heels, I don't think that they are particularly.  Just trying to get it right.

[faithlilly]

Perhaps it's just pertinent to Portugal.  I don't know because I am only interested in Portugal at the moment.  But you have to admit that their Judicial System is in a frightful mess.
And just how many of their PJ Officers have been indicted for Torture in recent years?

As for dragging their heels, I don't think that they are particularly.  Just trying to get it right.

If only we in this country were quite as efficient at bringing our errant police officers to account as Portugal we may just see a drop in the number of deaths in custody and miscarriages of justice.

[Mr Gray]

If only we in this country were quite as efficient at bringing our errant police officers to account as Portugal we may just see a drop in the number of deaths in custody and miscarriages of justice.

So how many miscarriages of justice has Portugal seen...according to Montclair...none....a sign of a corrupt system..

[faithlilly]

So how many miscarriages of justice has Portugal seen...according to Montclair...none....a sign of a corrupt system..

I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of police officers who have been called to account for their actions when there has been a death in custody in this country. A shameful situation.

[Mr Gray]

I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of police officers who have been called to account for their actions when there has been a death in custody in this country. A shameful situation.

they have yet to be reported to Amnesty so the situation is not as bad as you think...how do you know its better in Portugal

[Alice Purjorick]

So how many miscarriages of justice has Portugal seen...according to Montclair...none....a sign of a corrupt system..

Or indication of a system which works very well.

[Eleanor]

Or indication of a system which works very well.

You could certainly say that.

[Mr Gray]

Or indication of a system which works very well.

But we know it doesn't

[faithlilly]

But we know it doesn't

Do we ?

[Mr Gray]

Do we ?

it would have to be perfect if there were no miscarriages of justice...we know it isn't....therefore the lack of admission of miscarriages should ring alarm bells in sensible people.....