Julie Mugford 'telling' Susan Battersby

[anglolawyer]

Yes 02 appeal and surveillance referred to post JM.  I'm not sure who had overall responsibility for what and when in terms of the investigation.  DI Cook is on record as criticising the command structure and saying the investigation was like a ship without a rower (think he meant rudder).  If you look at the record logs of JM's interviews most of them were with DS Jones.  Plus he picked up the silencer from the Eatons.  It's as though the case was his baby.  Is this norm to have one officer assigned almost exclusively to a case?

When you say overall idea you mean re EP putting JM and JB under surveillance and seizing the opportunity when the relationship ended?  The idea isn't without its problems ie LR blowing the whistle.  Unless this was all part of the plan ie DS Jones creating a situation where someone other than JM blew the whistle but that sounds too complicated?   I just struggle with 99.9% of women condoning mass murder whether directly or indirectly.  I can't see JM hanging out with a guy for a month if she thought he was involved and then going to EP coz he dumped her. I can't see her sharing his life and bed for a month if she had any suspicion?  I can't buy into she was besotted, frightened, didn't want to believe it etc.  Or worse still she was happy to turn a blind eye as she relished the idea of sharing his inheritance and becoming Mrs Bamber.  Then I have to buy into SB being told but fooling around with JB at a party a couple of days later.  None of it makes sense to me anyway.  Plus there are too many inconsistencies in JM's WS:  NB shot 7 times consecutively (4 times upstairs, 4 times downstairs thought to be consecutively), SC found on bed (on floor), a glove falling off/fingerprints (said to account for lack of prints.  It appears firearms are difficult to lift prints from).

Why did DS Jones ask about their sex life?  Was this a genuine question to see if JB was weird/violent (Christian Grey just happened to be adopted!); got off on asking JM about it; attempt to get some bad PR in an era when homosexuality/bisexuality was frowned upon or was DS Jones a closet gay who hated JB for arousing his interest so to speak.  Or was he jealous of JB's perceived pulling power?

Quite a few points there:

1 I don't know about command structures etc and certainly not in 1985.   I imagine that some level of seniority above detective sergeant would be required in order for phone tapping and bugging to be authorised but I'm only guessing and anyway, DS Jones might have got authority from a sympathetic senior for all I know.

2 I assume your 'overall idea' is that JM is telling a pack of lies, that Bamber never planned to or spoke about murdering his family.   To sustain it, you offered a list of reasons for JM to lie.   I commented on those and your response was to suggest that EP may have got to know about Osea Road, cheque fraud etc by bugging.   Your conspiracy theory thus became a bit more involved.   Just to clarify, I have nothing against CTs and my own position on this case involves one that includes the DPP.   As a general rule they are more credible the fewer people are involved and the less complicated they are.   Yours got a little more complicated, that's all.   It doesn't mean it's not true.   I just happen not to believe it.

3 as to her condoning mass murder, I think we have two very great improbabilities, one of which must be true: yours, that she would swear his life away because he dumped her (plus some other goodies as you listed) and mine that she would stand by him knowing his heinous involvement (to which I, in turn, have added some imaginative extra incentives).

4 I have not studied JM's witness statements as closely as I should.  I did not know she had a bullet-count in them.   Have you seen her purported diary on that?   I mistrust diaries as the entries are too easy to fake but it's interesting that she claims to have noted (and thus to have been told by JB) how many times everyone was shot.   On the 'SC on the bed' thing, that info was provided to the gathering at Goldhanger on the morning of the 7th by the officer present (who also said everybody was shot once).   Ann Eaton noted it and then noted that the information changed in the course of her initial tour of WHF with Taff Jones.   So JM may have picked that up from the police officer.

5 I didn't know Jones asked about their sex life but I guess it would be legit to explore their relationship.   Didn't some of the coppers think JB was gay and involved some how with Brett?   Maybe he was exploring that angle.

[Holly Goodhead]

Quite a few points there:

1 I don't know about command structures etc and certainly not in 1985.   I imagine that some level of seniority above detective sergeant would be required in order for phone tapping and bugging to be authorised but I'm only guessing and anyway, DS Jones might have got authority from a sympathetic senior for all I know.

Was there anything to stop DS Jones operating under his own steam if the devices were readily available either internally or externally?

2 I assume your 'overall idea' is that JM is telling a pack of lies, that Bamber never planned to or spoke about murdering his family.   To sustain it, you offered a list of reasons for JM to lie.   I commented on those and your response was to suggest that EP may have got to know about Osea Road, cheque fraud etc by bugging.   Your conspiracy theory thus became a bit more involved.   Just to clarify, I have nothing against CTs and my own position on this case involves one that includes the DPP.   As a general rule they are more credible the fewer people are involved and the less complicated they are.   Yours got a little more complicated, that's all.   It doesn't mean it's not true.   I just happen not to believe it.

Yes I believe her 8th Aug WS and not those thereafter but why the change?  I struggle to believe it was just as a result of JB ending the relationship.  She told SB, hinted to Karen Bishop (I can't recall if this was before or after SB) and then told LR and Malcolm Deckers.  LR blew the whistle with EP.  Was telling the girls some sort of face saving exercise that got out of control?   Malcom's first reaction was to ask whether it was as a result of JB ending the relationship.  Or did she take the break-up particularly badly due to her parents divorcing when she was young, 10 yoa apparently, and it doesn't seem like she kept in contact with her birth father?  My theory doesn't really involve anyone other than DS Jones and JM?

3 as to her condoning mass murder, I think we have two very great improbabilities, one of which must be true: yours, that she would swear his life away because he dumped her (plus some other goodies as you listed) and mine that she would stand by him knowing his heinous involvement (to which I, in turn, have added some imaginative extra incentives).

No, as I've said I struggle to see her swearing his life away because he ended the relationship.  Also if she was that way inclined would JB be so stupid and not see that as a real possibility.  I also struggle to see her standing by him to the extent of identifying the victims at the morgue and then asking AP at the funerals about the use of a property in Ibiza for a hol with JB and two friends.  The only logical explanation seems to be that DS Jones, the rellies and CC were able to convince her JB was in fact guilty and if she didn't cooperate there would be consequences?

4 I have not studied JM's witness statements as closely as I should.  I did not know she had a bullet-count in them.   Have you seen her purported diary on that?   I mistrust diaries as the entries are too easy to fake but it's interesting that she claims to have noted (and thus to have been told by JB) how many times everyone was shot.   On the 'SC on the bed' thing, that info was provided to the gathering at Goldhanger on the morning of the 7th by the officer present (who also said everybody was shot once).   Ann Eaton noted it and then noted that the information changed in the course of her initial tour of WHF with Taff Jones.   So JM may have picked that up from the police officer.

But if JB told her about the murders, as she claims, why is so much factually incorrect?  The gunshot wounds in her WS and diary entry are incorrect.  I guess you could argue JB was safeguarding over her coughing and feeding her duff info but this would show a level of awareness on his part of that potential risk and a need to keep her sweet and on side.  Or not tell in her in the first place. 

5 I didn't know Jones asked about their sex life but I guess it would be legit to explore their relationship.   Didn't some of the coppers think JB was gay and involved some how with Brett?   Maybe he was exploring that angle.

How would any of that affect his ability to murder or not?  I don't really see the relevance.

[anglolawyer]

Was there anything to stop DS Jones operating under his own steam if the devices were readily available either internally or externally?

Yes I believe her 8th Aug WS and not those thereafter but why the change?  I struggle to believe it was just as a result of JB ending the relationship.  She told SB, hinted to Karen Bishop (I can't recall if this was before or after SB) and then told LR and Malcolm Deckers.  LR blew the whistle with EP.  Was telling the girls some sort of face saving exercise that got out of control?   Malcom's first reaction was to ask whether it was as a result of JB ending the relationship.  Or did she take the break-up particularly badly due to her parents divorcing when she was young, 10 yoa apparently, and it doesn't seem like she kept in contact with her birth father?  My theory doesn't really involve anyone other than DS Jones and JM?

No, as I've said I struggle to see her swearing his life away because he ended the relationship.  Also if she was that way inclined would JB be so stupid and not see that as a real possibility.  I also struggle to see her standing by him to the extent of identifying the victims at the morgue and then asking AP at the funerals about the use of a property in Ibiza for a hol with JB and two friends.  The only logical explanation seems to be that DS Jones, the rellies and CC were able to convince her JB was in fact guilty and if she didn't cooperate there would be consequences?

But if JB told her about the murders, as she claims, why is so much factually incorrect?  The gunshot wounds in her WS and diary entry are incorrect.  I guess you could argue JB was safeguarding over her coughing and feeding her duff info but this would show a level of awareness on his part of that potential risk and a need to keep her sweet and on side.  Or not tell in her in the first place. 

How would any of that affect his ability to murder or not?  I don't really see the relevance.

On the last point first, general background info must surely always be useful.   There were rumours circulating about him stealing watches and jewellery and dealing drugs down under and that maybe involved Brett.   Those things, plus Osea Road, show that he was more interested in money than is healthy.   If I were a detective investigating this case who did not believe JB's story I would be interested.

I am only repeating myself in saying that his dumping her may partly account for her motivation.   She may have felt entitled to some of the proceeds of the enterprise whether in cash or status and she may also have started to fear that if he were caught he might take her down with him.   She could not know one way or the other how he would react to being accused of involvement, so she may have felt impelled to be the one who went to the police first.   If my theory is correct, then she made a great if also dangerous move, not only in approaching the police but also in feting up to Osea Road, cheque fraud etc.

Anyway, I've said all that and don;t wish to be boring.   I'm afraid this case is such a mess and there is so much material that is not available online that, unlike some, it is simply not possible to reach a concluded view either way.   It's plausible enough that Sheila did it but not possible to demonstrate one way or the other.   My feeling is JM told a version of the truth but that could easily be wrong and I certainly have no way of convincing you otherwise.

[Holly Goodhead]

On the last point first, general background info must surely always be useful.   There were rumours circulating about him stealing watches and jewellery and dealing drugs down under and that maybe involved Brett.   Those things, plus Osea Road, show that he was more interested in money than is healthy.   If I were a detective investigating this case who did not believe JB's story I would be interested.

I am only repeating myself in saying that his dumping her may partly account for her motivation.   She may have felt entitled to some of the proceeds of the enterprise whether in cash or status and she may also have started to fear that if he were caught he might take her down with him.   She could not know one way or the other how he would react to being accused of involvement, so she may have felt impelled to be the one who went to the police first.   If my theory is correct, then she made a great if also dangerous move, not only in approaching the police but also in feting up to Osea Road, cheque fraud etc.

Anyway, I've said all that and don;t wish to be boring.   I'm afraid this case is such a mess and there is so much material that is not available online that, unlike some, it is simply not possible to reach a concluded view either way.   It's plausible enough that Sheila did it but not possible to demonstrate one way or the other.   My feeling is JM told a version of the truth but that could easily be wrong and I certainly have no way of convincing you otherwise.

There's no evidence to support any crime down under.  If EP were interested in JB's sex life surely they would liaise with counterparts in the Antipodes and get to the bottom of it down under 

Not condoning OCP but I'm inclined to see it as more than just theft for financial gain.  It's well documented that JB was aggrieved that AE and himself had equal status and responsibility in the running of OCP.  Yet AE's financial compensation was greater than JB's.  JB tackled June about this and he was told "When you learn to live properly".  If I was JB I would have been as I see this as very much a control thing.  At that time he hadn't committed OCP and unlikely June was aware of his cannabis growing and selling so as far as I can see unless he was breaking the law it was up to him how he chose to live his life.  Perhaps June was referring to his sexual relationship with JM which is ridiculous for a man of 23/24 yoa in 1984/5. 

There was far too much trying to control SC and JB by June and NB.  June telling CC she hoped his relationship with SC was over after her first termination.  Then NB telling JB he had to end his relationship with Suzette Ford if he wanted to inherit.  If CC and SF were undesirable characters I could perhaps understand their reservations but they weren't.  Really unhealthy imo.

There are numerous cases of affluent stars that have stolen small ticket items and it has been linked to psychological reasons:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16469928

http://www.ranker.com/list/celebrities-who-have-been-caught-shoplifting/celebrity-lists?var=2&utm?

Yes we only have a fraction of the available material so its like trying to complete a jigsaw without all the bits!

[Holly Goodhead]

No one wants to mass debate with me over JB 

[anglolawyer]

No one wants to mass debate with me over JB 

I'm still here but we have beaten this part of the topic to death, haven't we?

[Holly Goodhead]

I'm still here but we have beaten this part of the topic to death, haven't we?

JM 'telling' SB and then the pair partying with JB along with SB fooling around with him spraying dairy cream on his neck was new to me.  I must have read it in the WS's but it obviously didn't register until I read CAL's book.  Just adds to my belief the pair were unreliable prosecutions witnesses.   

I just need to look at a timeline for order of SB, KB (Karen Bishop) and LR.  Also why did JM spell it out for SB and LR but apparently only hint at with KB?  Bearing in mind JM was a bridesmaid at KB's wedding so a close friend I guess. 

   

[Myster]

Any more acronyms, and I'll have to borrow E for Enigma off MT to translate.

SB didn't spray any cream on JB's neck either, she pretended as if she was going to.

[Holly Goodhead]

Any more acronyms, and I'll have to borrow E for Enigma off MT to translate.

and I think that might produce BS!

SB didn't spray any cream on JB's neck either, she pretended as if she was going to.

Either way it's so not the norm if you believe a fellow party goer and intended sprayee is a mass murderer.

JM = Julie Mugford

SB = Susan Battesby

LR = Elizabeth (Liz) Rimmington

KB = Karen Bishop nee Napier

JM, LR and KB met initially through working at Frog and Bean wine bar owned by Michael Deckers (MD) and Malcolm Waters (MW).  MD and MW sold the wine bar and bought Sloppy Joes.  LR was employed there as manageress.  She was also the girlfriend of MW (CAL makes a mistake in her book on page 86 and refers to LR as the girlfriend of MD). JB was employed as a barman.  JM and KB were taken on as temporary waitresses during Christmas '83. At this time MD, MW, LR and JB all shared a house in Colchester which MD owned.

KB was a medi student at Cambridge and married fellow medi student Andy Bishop (AB).  You might recall the second weekend after the tragedy the Bishops and JB and JM went windsuring to Pevensey.  JM was a bridesmaid at the Bishops wedding.  Perhaps the Bishops were the two friends JM was referring to when she made enquiries with AP at the funerals about the use of his in-laws pad in Ibiza for herself, JB and two friends. 

SB was first to be told about JB's involvement with the tragedy followed by LR. Interestingly this is JM's account of stopping short of telling KB:

"Julie had already told Susan and Liz that Jeremy was behind his family murders; she intimated heavily to Karen that he was guilty, but for some reason stopped just short of saying the actual words, perhaps hoping that one of the three  women would take it upon themselves to inform the police".  "Later, Julie said she was amazed that Karen hadn't realized she had been trying to tell her that Jeremy was involved".

Hmmm so why not spell it out for KB?   

LR also had a brief fling with JB.  Did I read that LR had a fling with Matthew McDonald too?  I'm not sure about that.

[Nicholas]

and I think that might produce BS!

Either way it's so not the norm if you believe a fellow party goer and intended sprayee is a mass murderer.

JM = Julie Mugford

SB = Susan Battesby

LR = Elizabeth (Liz) Rimmington

KB = Karen Bishop nee Napier

JM, LR and KB met initially through working at Frog and Bean wine bar owned by Michael Deckers (MD) and Malcolm Waters (MW).  MD and MW sold the wine bar and bought Sloppy Joes.  LR was employed there as manageress.  She was also the girlfriend of MW (CAL makes a mistake in her book on page 86 and refers to LR as the girlfriend of MD). JB was employed as a barman.  JM and KB were taken on as temporary waitresses during Christmas '83. At this time MD, MW, LR and JB all shared a house in Colchester which MD owned.

KB was a medi student at Cambridge and married fellow medi student Andy Bishop (AB).  You might recall the second weekend after the tragedy the Bishops and JB and JM went windsuring to Pevensey.  JM was a bridesmaid at the Bishops wedding.  Perhaps the Bishops were the two friends JM was referring to when she made enquiries with AP at the funerals about the use of his in-laws pad in Ibiza for herself, JB and two friends. 

SB was first to be told about JB's involvement with the tragedy followed by LR. Interestingly this is JM's account of stopping short of telling KB:

"Julie had already told Susan and Liz that Jeremy was behind his family murders; she intimated heavily to Karen that he was guilty, but for some reason stopped just short of saying the actual words, perhaps hoping that one of the three  women would take it upon themselves to inform the police".  "Later, Julie said she was amazed that Karen hadn't realized she had been trying to tell her that Jeremy was involved".

Hmmm so why not spell it out for KB?   

LR also had a brief fling with JB.  Did I read that LR had a fling with Matthew McDonald too?  I'm not sure about that.

Have Andy and Karen Bishops police witness statements been published?

[Myster]

If they have, no doubt Cutie Goodhead will nick them and post them over here... if you're lucky!

[Nicholas]

If they have, no doubt Cutie Goodhead will nick them and post them over here... if you're lucky!