Did this finding get followed up by the PJ?

[Sunny]

Sunny - do I understand you properly?  You said "5c have been privately owned and never let out by the Ocean Club", what do you mean by that?  For that does seem to be at odds with what Maria da Silva says as she claims to clean 5C, supposedly after OC clients have used it.
All those apartments are potentially privately owned,  as exemplified by apartment 5A, which was privately owned by a Ruth McCann, unrelated to the McCanns who stayed there.  https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2941709/apartment-in-praia-da-luz-madeleine-mccann-vanished-from-sold-to-british-gran-for-255000-half-the-asking-price/

My post didn't make sense did it. I meant that 5c could have been privately owned and not let out at all. I see Misty has put me right already though.

[Robittybob1]

My post didn't make sense did it. I meant that 5c could have been privately owned and not let out at all. I see Misty has put me right already though.

OK -  so do you think 5C was in use on the afternoon of the day Madeleine went missing? (as Annie and Jane say?)
If the PJ worked out who this was using 5C, it was never told to us through the released files. 

Should the PJ have informed us of that?

[Robittybob1]

Was the laundry man mentioned here the one who picked up the laundry from the McCann apartment?  Do they have laundry chutes to collect the laundry from?

"There was a description given later that the cleaning staff throw the dirty linen down the hole in the stairwell.  I take that to mean the volume of space around which the stair case spirals.

A thought that occurred to me was that it could be possible  that if a child was not aware this was happening a bundle of linen could be thrown on top of a child standing on the ground floor at a spot centred on the hole.

Could a heavy load of laundry smoother a child?  I think it could if the load was placed into some sort of bag to begin with and especially if thrown from one of the upper floors.  The child could walk into the danger zone as the bag is falling unbeknown to the person throwing the bag.

[Brietta]

I said I was impressed with the work TextUSA had done on the SC statement but I feel (at this stage at least) that he has the identity of the person demanding the apartments be opened incorrect. 
Above he inserted Murat as the person who did this.
"DC Ferguson: In Mark Warner and he [Murat] demanded that he [John Hill] open up all the Mark Warner rooms so that he [Murat] could check them and he [John Hill] called the cleaning ladies etc. to help and open all the empty apartments that were not necessarily in the Mark Warner complex, but for which they could have the key."

In my earlier reading of SC statement I thought he was saying Gerry McCann did this demanding.  So let's have a look at the original statement to see if we can get the context correct.

For if Gerry McCann demanded the MW Manager to open the apartments up we can no longer say Gerry was not involved in the searches.

From SC statement:
"We walked back along the path that I had taken to Gerry's apartment and I explained that Robert spoke Portuguese fluently, he told Gerry that it was important to have someone who spoke the language so that nothing would be lost in translation.. And that was how Robert Murat was presented as a translator.


DCF: Yes

SC: After he left, he explained that Gerry was frustrated with the way in which the case was being handled and they went to talk to John Hill.


DCF: Yes..

SC: In Mark Warner and he asked that all the Mark Warner rooms be opened so that he could check them and asked the cleaning ladies etc. to help open all the empty apartments that were not necessarily in the Mark Warner complex, but for which they might have the keys. At this moment I also met an English man called Dave who lived in the area and helped the Ocean Club to authorise entry into all the apartments possible, some of the apartments in Gerry's block belonged to local owners and Dave helped to get the keys to these apartments so that they could check them and search them, they checked them all in a general manner.

DCF: Mmm mmm."

So now I'll put in square brackets who I think SC is talking about.

""We [Robert Murat and Steve Carpenter] walked back along the path that I [Steve Carpenter] had taken to Gerry's apartment and I [Steve Carpenter] explained that Robert spoke Portuguese fluently, he [Robert Murat] told Gerry that it was important to have someone who spoke the language so that nothing would be lost in translation.. And that was how Robert Murat was presented as a translator.


DCF: Yes

SC: After he  [Gerry McCann] left, he [Robert Murat] explained that Gerry was frustrated with the way in which the case was being handled and they [Gerry McCann, Robert Murat and Steve Carpenter] went to talk to John Hill.


DCF: Yes..

SC: In Mark Warner and he [Gerry McCann] asked that all the Mark Warner rooms be opened so that  [Gerry McCann and the GNR dogs] could check them and [John Hill] asked the cleaning ladies etc. to help open all the empty apartments that were not necessarily in the Mark Warner complex, but for which they might have the keys. At this moment I also met an English man called Dave who lived in the area and helped the Ocean Club to authorise entry into all the apartments possible, some of the apartments in Gerry's block belonged to local owners and Dave helped to get the keys to these apartments so that they could check them and search them, they [who was this?] checked them all in a general manner.

DCF: Mmm mmm."

I have the feeling since it was Gerry who was not happy with the way the search was being handled it would have been Gerry himself who made the demands on John Hill to open the rooms.  I cannot imagine Robert Murat in his capacity of translator demanding this be done.

It would be interesting to know what John Hill said about this incident.  I'd say it really did happen.  But who made it happen is slightly unclear from what SC says.

I'm not too sure who actually checked the opened apartments in a "general manner".  Was it  GNR dogs as well as humans?

I think you've got that bit wrong, Robitty ...

DCF: Yes

SC: After he  [Gerry McCann] left, he [Robert Murat] explained that Gerry was frustrated with the way in which the case was being handled and they [Gerry McCann, Robert Murat and Steve Carpenter] went to talk to John Hill.


You can't have Gerry leaving and then include him in the group leaving to speak to John Hill.  Interesting though that Murat was putting words in Gerry's mouth after he was no longer there to say yeah or nay.

[Robittybob1]

So you think Robert Murat ordered John Hill to open the rooms.  I could see Gerry demanding that but not Robert Murat.

John Hill should be able to clear that up, so not a biggie.

When SC says "Gerry left" it could just be to see how Kate was.  Then later they go to see John Hill.

I was wondering who actually goes to see John Hill?

he writes "SC: After he left, he explained that Gerry was frustrated with the way in which the case was being handled and they went to talk to John Hill."

Who is they?  Wouldn't that be Robert and Gerry?  If it was SC and Murat wouldn't he say "we"?

The word "we" appears 65 times in the statement most appear to describe what SC and someone else did.

"SC: In Mark Warner and he asked that all the Mark Warner rooms be opened so that he could check them and asked the cleaning ladies etc. to help open all the empty apartments that were not necessarily in the Mark Warner complex, but for which they might have the keys. At this moment I also met an English man called Dave who lived in the area and helped the Ocean Club to authorise entry into all the apartments possible, some of the apartments in Gerry's block belonged to local owners and Dave helped to get the keys to these apartments so that they could check them and search them, they checked them all in a general manner. "  Could just be SC reporting the facts, but he does say "At this moment I also met an English man called Dave" which makes it sound like he was there too.

[Brietta]

So you think Robert Murat ordered John Hill to open the rooms.  I could see Gerry demanding that but not Robert Murat.

John Hill should be able to clear that up, so not a biggie.

When SC says "Gerry left" it could just be to see how Kate was.  Then later they go to see John Hill.

I was wondering who actually goes to see John Hill?

he writes "SC: After he left, he explained that Gerry was frustrated with the way in which the case was being handled and they went to talk to John Hill."

Who is they?  Wouldn't that be Robert and Gerry?  If it was SC and Murat wouldn't he say "we"?

The word "we" appears 65 times in the statement most appear to describe what SC and someone else did.

"SC: In Mark Warner and he asked that all the Mark Warner rooms be opened so that he could check them and asked the cleaning ladies etc. to help open all the empty apartments that were not necessarily in the Mark Warner complex, but for which they might have the keys. At this moment I also met an English man called Dave who lived in the area and helped the Ocean Club to authorise entry into all the apartments possible, some of the apartments in Gerry's block belonged to local owners and Dave helped to get the keys to these apartments so that they could check them and search them, they checked them all in a general manner. "  Could just be SC reporting the facts, but he does say "At this moment I also met an English man called Dave" which makes it sound like he was there too.

I've not really got into all of this, Robitty.  But I don't think the GNR or the PJ would have allowed private citizens to gain access to keys and thus dwellings without having their own presence there in control.
Would they have allowed them to enter on their own without supervision ... if they allowed such entry at all?

I don't think so ... but I don't know.

[Robittybob1]

I've not really got into all of this, Robitty.  But I don't think the GNR or the PJ would have allowed private citizens to gain access to keys and thus dwellings without having their own presence there in control.
Would they have allowed them to enter on their own without supervision ... if they allowed such entry at all?

I don't think so ... but I don't know.

This is all happening on the morning of the 4th or at least some of it is, but later on the 4th the Tapas 9 had their interviews.  I'd imagine it would  take a while to organise keys etc.  I wonder how many rooms they covered and how many teams were doing this searching.  I suppose it went on without Gerry being present.

SC statement "I met the following persons when I participated in the searches for Madeleine during the day after her disappearance, "  I.e. he is saying this all happened on the 4th there.
 
He was travelling back to England on the 5th May. "DCF: Yes, you met Gerry in the swimming pool area on Saturday afternoon, he told you that the fifty year old man had not been taken into consideration, that the Leicestershire police were on their way and you gave him your phone number and returned to England that night."

[misty]

This is all happening on the morning of the 4th or at least some of it is, but later on the 4th the Tapas 9 had their interviews.  I'd imagine it would  take a while to organise keys etc.  I wonder how many rooms they covered and how many teams were doing this searching.  I suppose it went on without Gerry being present.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BAREND_WEIJDOM.htm

On the following morning, 4th May he also participated in some searches and, as in his professional capacity he manages apartment 5E of the OC Garden (in the same block as the apartment from which Madeleine disappeared) he suggested that the authorities should visit that apartment, in case someone had tried to enter it while it was unoccupied.

He went to the apartment with a GNR officer and after a few seconds Robert Murat also entered the apartment without anyone having requested his presence.

The witness says that he found Murat's presence in the apartment to be strange, adding that after he entered the apartment he gave the witness a 'pat on the side' and said 'thanks for your collaboration'. During this situation the witness thought that Murat worked for the police. On that morning the witness saw Murat moving around the site a lot and saw him enter and leave the apartment Madeleine disappeared from, without knowing whether he was with anyone there. He said that Murat moved a lot between the authorities and journalists.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIA-CASTELA.htm

*snipped*

She saw the suspect, Robert Murat, for the first time on that day at about 12.30 when the witness went to meet GNR officers whom she cannot identify, to open the doors for them and speak to guests staying in apartments in block 6. The objective was for the police to talk to these guests and show them the photo of the girl and establish whether they had any information that could lead to discovering her whereabouts.

When she was beginning this task together with GNR officers, this individual appeared, she does not know from where, he immediately saw what operations were going on, speaking ostensibly to the guests from the first two apartments, explaining to them what they were doing there, showing much will and anxiety in the transmission of this information.

Given his behaviour, for a few minutes the witness thought that he belonged to one of the security forces, namely the PJ.


The GNR officer who was with them did not speak and English nor say anything.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/dec/14/ukcrime.madeleinemccann

*snipped*
 The dance show was cancelled, but they wanted to put on a normal day for the children. Our daughter ran inside and started painting. Then, behind us, another set of parents arrived looking equally washed out. Then another, and another. We decided, in the end, to leave them for two hours. We put their bags on the pegs and saw the one labelled "Madeleine". Heads bent, we walked away, into the guilty glare of the morning sun.

Locals and holidaymakers had started circulating photocopied pictures of Madeleine, while others continued searching the beaches and village apartments. People were talking about what had happened or sat silently, staring blankly. We didn't see any police.

Later, there was a knock on our apartment door and we let the two men in. One was a uniformed Portuguese policeman, the other his translator. The translator had a squint and sweated slightly. He was breathless, perhaps a little excited. We later found out he was Robert Murat. He reminded me of a boy in my class at school who was bullied.

Through Murat we answered a few questions and gave our details, which the policeman wrote down on the back of a bit of paper. No notebook. Then he pointed to the photocopied picture of Madeleine on the table. "Is this your daughter?" he asked. "Er, no," we said. "That's the girl you are meant to be searching for." My heart sank for the McCanns.


Murat was certainly in the thick of police activity in & around Block 5 on 4th May morning.

[jassi]

Someone wanting their 15 minutes of fame,  IMO.
Backfired on him somewhat and he got a lot more than 15 minutes.

[G-Unit]

I've not really got into all of this, Robitty.  But I don't think the GNR or the PJ would have allowed private citizens to gain access to keys and thus dwellings without having their own presence there in control.
Would they have allowed them to enter on their own without supervision ... if they allowed such entry at all?

I don't think so ... but I don't know.

All the evidence points to a properly organised operation by the OC employees and the GNR;

She remembers that, that morning, all the cleaning employees were involved in searches in the apartments corresponding to their areas of action;
. But in this they were always accompanied by an element of the GNR;
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIA-VIEGAS.htm

 That on this morning, the witness sin question together with elements of the GNR, and another man whom she did not know, searched various apartments in block 5, looking for the little girl;
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIA-GLORIA.htm

She saw the suspect, Robert Murat, for the first time on that day at about 12.30 when the witness went to meet GNR officers whom she cannot identify, to open the doors for them and speak to guests staying in apartments in block 6. The objective was for the police to talk to these guests and show them the photo of the girl and establish whether they had any information that could lead to discovering her whereabouts.....

After the second apartment, the witness says that Robert's attitude was not the most correct, as he spoke to the guests in a very dry and affirmative way and she took the initiative to introduce herself to the clients, not letting him speak.

She thanks that is the reason why he immediately disappeared and did not accompany them to the rest of the apartments.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIA-CASTELA.htm

[Robittybob1]

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BAREND_WEIJDOM.htm

On the following morning, 4th May he also participated in some searches and, as in his professional capacity he manages apartment 5E of the OC Garden (in the same block as the apartment from which Madeleine disappeared) he suggested that the authorities should visit that apartment, in case someone had tried to enter it while it was unoccupied.

He went to the apartment with a GNR officer and after a few seconds Robert Murat also entered the apartment without anyone having requested his presence.

The witness says that he found Murat's presence in the apartment to be strange, adding that after he entered the apartment he gave the witness a 'pat on the side' and said 'thanks for your collaboration'. During this situation the witness thought that Murat worked for the police. On that morning the witness saw Murat moving around the site a lot and saw him enter and leave the apartment Madeleine disappeared from, without knowing whether he was with anyone there. He said that Murat moved a lot between the authorities and journalists.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIA-CASTELA.htm

*snipped*

She saw the suspect, Robert Murat, for the first time on that day at about 12.30 when the witness went to meet GNR officers whom she cannot identify, to open the doors for them and speak to guests staying in apartments in block 6. The objective was for the police to talk to these guests and show them the photo of the girl and establish whether they had any information that could lead to discovering her whereabouts.

When she was beginning this task together with GNR officers, this individual appeared, she does not know from where, he immediately saw what operations were going on, speaking ostensibly to the guests from the first two apartments, explaining to them what they were doing there, showing much will and anxiety in the transmission of this information.

Given his behaviour, for a few minutes the witness thought that he belonged to one of the security forces, namely the PJ.


The GNR officer who was with them did not speak and English nor say anything.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/dec/14/ukcrime.madeleinemccann

*snipped*
 The dance show was cancelled, but they wanted to put on a normal day for the children. Our daughter ran inside and started painting. Then, behind us, another set of parents arrived looking equally washed out. Then another, and another. We decided, in the end, to leave them for two hours. We put their bags on the pegs and saw the one labelled "Madeleine". Heads bent, we walked away, into the guilty glare of the morning sun.

Locals and holidaymakers had started circulating photocopied pictures of Madeleine, while others continued searching the beaches and village apartments. People were talking about what had happened or sat silently, staring blankly. We didn't see any police.

Later, there was a knock on our apartment door and we let the two men in. One was a uniformed Portuguese policeman, the other his translator. The translator had a squint and sweated slightly. He was breathless, perhaps a little excited. We later found out he was Robert Murat. He reminded me of a boy in my class at school who was bullied.

Through Murat we answered a few questions and gave our details, which the policeman wrote down on the back of a bit of paper. No notebook. Then he pointed to the photocopied picture of Madeleine on the table. "Is this your daughter?" he asked. "Er, no," we said. "That's the girl you are meant to be searching for." My heart sank for the McCanns.


Murat was certainly in the thick of police activity in & around Block 5 on 4th May morning.

But was Steve Carpenter tagging along too.  Did they stay together all day long?

[Robittybob1]

Someone wanting their 15 minutes of fame,  IMO.
Backfired on him somewhat and he got a lot more than 15 minutes.

Who are you talking about?

[jassi]

Who are you talking about?

Murat

[Robittybob1]

Murat

I really want to focus on the Steve Carpenter aspect if possible.

[jassi]

I really want to focus on the Steve Carpenter aspect if possible.

I was replying to Misty's post which was all about Murat.