Author Topic: Does Madeleine have the right to be found?  (Read 79293 times)

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Offline Lace

Re: Does Madeleine have the right to be found?
« Reply #660 on: September 06, 2018, 08:38:54 AM »
Is Kate McCann right handed?
Was there part of a palm print found?



2.36 Kate painting holding brush in right hand  -

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=madeleine+was+here+youtube&view=detail&mid=6D6B420E63A409B681D46D6B420E63A409B681D4&FORM=VIRE

Sorry no palm print just fingerprints of left hand -

Observations: The fingerprint traces collected are identified as being the middle finger of the left hand (3x) and forefinger of the left hand (2x), of the missing girl’s mother,

« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 08:46:16 AM by Lace »

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Does Madeleine have the right to be found?
« Reply #661 on: September 06, 2018, 08:40:10 AM »
Did you read the quote I shared Rob?  Here is a snip of the snipped Martin Grime quote.

"My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD’s alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is “cadaver scent” contaminant.  This  does  not  how  however  suggest  a  motive  or suspect  as  cross  contamination   could  be  as  a  result  of  a  number  of  given  scenarios"
I know the quote very well, but I wanting to understand what you were trying to say when you said " I have just noticed that it would seem to me that Martin Grime was confident that the dog smelt cadaver scent only that there was a possibility of cross contamination".  Would you be able to put that in your own words?
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: Does Madeleine have the right to be found?
« Reply #662 on: September 06, 2018, 08:48:38 AM »


2.36 Kate painting holding brush in right hand  -

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=madeleine+was+here+youtube&view=detail&mid=6D6B420E63A409B681D46D6B420E63A409B681D4&FORM=VIRE

.
I agree with that finding.  Kate is definitely right handed. 
what document has the finger print results?  http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FINGERPRINTS.htm

Was the palm print mentioned somewhere else?
Thanks for editing your post Lace.

« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 09:16:40 AM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: Does Madeleine have the right to be found?
« Reply #663 on: September 06, 2018, 09:05:26 AM »
I agree with that finding.  Kate is definitely right handed. 
what document has the finger print results?  http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FINGERPRINTS.htm

Was the palm print mentioned somewhere else?
Found a reference to the palm print in Goncalo Amaral's book"
"TECHNICAL FAULTS

Inside the apartment, police forensic specialists proceed to lift finger and palmar prints, a job that is preferably carried out during daylight hours. Others look for traces of blood, samples of fibres and hair. We notice with dismay that one of the technicians, who is working on the outside of the McCann children's bedroom window is not using the regulation suit, thus risking contaminating possible clues. These images of negligence start to circulate world-wide; this isn't, however, the usual behaviour of police judiciaire technicians."

Next bit:
"It's obvious that no one has broken in and the lock has not been forced. No prints are lifted that are likely to belong to an unknown person, nor the slightest trace of gloves which could have been worn by a hypothetical abductor. In the middle of this desert of clues, two prints are perfectly easily found: the very distinct mark of a palm print on the balcony window at the rear of the apartment, and a clearly visible one of fingers on the window pane of Madeleine's bedroom. The excellent quality of the palm print seemed suspicious to us. Later, analyses confirm our suspicions: it belonged to one of the officers who were present the previous night.
https://www.cwporter.com/amaral2.htm
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Offline G-Unit

Re: Does Madeleine have the right to be found?
« Reply #664 on: September 06, 2018, 09:15:13 AM »


2.36 Kate painting holding brush in right hand  -

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=madeleine+was+here+youtube&view=detail&mid=6D6B420E63A409B681D46D6B420E63A409B681D4&FORM=VIRE

Sorry no palm print just fingerprints of left hand -

Observations: The fingerprint traces collected are identified as being the middle finger of the left hand (3x) and forefinger of the left hand (2x), of the missing girl’s mother,

I too am right handed and I have three panes in my living room window. The centre pane is fixed and the left and right panes open. I use my left hand to open the left hand window and my right hand to open the right hand window. It seems quite natural to do that.
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: Does Madeleine have the right to be found?
« Reply #665 on: September 06, 2018, 09:19:42 AM »
I too am right handed and I have three panes in my living room window. The centre pane is fixed and the left and right panes open. I use my left hand to open the left hand window and my right hand to open the right hand window. It seems quite natural to do that.
Where is the locking mechanism on your right hand side window pane? Outer rim or inner rim?
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Offline G-Unit

Re: Does Madeleine have the right to be found?
« Reply #666 on: September 06, 2018, 10:10:04 AM »
Where is the locking mechanism on your right hand side window pane? Outer rim or inner rim?

The lock is incorporated in the handle, which is on the left hand side of the pane. The left side window pane has the handle on it's right hand side.
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Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Does Madeleine have the right to be found?
« Reply #667 on: September 06, 2018, 12:54:26 PM »
That is exactly the reason I started that thread asking about "corroborating evidence".
It was in Martin Grimes rogatory where he said:
"Every alert can be subject to interpretation, it has to be confirmed. The signals of an alert are only just that. Once the alert has been given by the dog, it is up to the investigator/forensic scientist to locate, identify and scientifically provide the evidence of DNA, etc. "

Because the PJ seem to focus on the finding of DNA one is lead to understand that corroborating evidence was going to be DNA. (which is found by forensic analysis).
I can see how one gets sidetracked into thinking only forensics will solve the issue as to whether the alerts were really to a cadaver or not.

What do you include in the set called "corroborating evidence" then?

What I would include don't matter a rats ass. It's how the law construes it that is important hence the caveat in my earlier post: I would suggest finding out precisley what the law means by corroborating evidence before saddling up.

"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Does Madeleine have the right to be found?
« Reply #668 on: September 06, 2018, 12:58:08 PM »
Sorry for snipping your post Alice but I have just noticed that it would seem to me that Martin Grime was confident that the dog smelt cadaver scent only that there was a possibility of cross contamination.

I agree with your post entirely, Brietta has changed the meaning of Martin Grimes statement IMO

Meanwhile everyone is trying to dodge the bullet.
The two texts are at variance. Why?
Now that's a simple enough question.
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Does Madeleine have the right to be found?
« Reply #669 on: September 06, 2018, 01:19:24 PM »
What I would include don't matter a rats ass. It's how the law construes it that is important hence the caveat in my earlier post: I would suggest finding out precisley what the law means by corroborating evidence before saddling up.
What is corroboration in criminal law?
Corroborate. To support or enhance the believability of a fact or assertion by the presentation of additional information that confirms the truthfulness of the item. The testimony of a witness is corroborated if subsequent evidence, such as a coroner's report or the testimony of other witnesses, substantiates it.

Corroborating evidence (or corroboration) is evidence that tends to support a proposition that is already supported by some initial evidence, therefore confirming the proposition. For example, W, a witness, testifies that she saw X drive his automobile into a green car.

OK corroborating evidence of a cadaver being in the apartment -
1. a confession of a person handling the cadaver.
2. A witness seeing a cadaver in the room.
3.  A witness testifying seeing a cadaver being taken into the apartment.
4.  A witness testifying seeing a cadaver being taken out of the apartment.

5. A DNA sample of someone who should not be in the apartment.  (DNA not matching any known visitor or occupant)
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Offline slartibartfast

Re: Does Madeleine have the right to be found?
« Reply #670 on: September 06, 2018, 02:09:40 PM »
What is corroboration in criminal law?
Corroborate. To support or enhance the believability of a fact or assertion by the presentation of additional information that confirms the truthfulness of the item. The testimony of a witness is corroborated if subsequent evidence, such as a coroner's report or the testimony of other witnesses, substantiates it.

Corroborating evidence (or corroboration) is evidence that tends to support a proposition that is already supported by some initial evidence, therefore confirming the proposition. For example, W, a witness, testifies that she saw X drive his automobile into a green car.

OK corroborating evidence of a cadaver being in the apartment -
1. a confession of a person handling the cadaver.
2. A witness seeing a cadaver in the room.
3.  A witness testifying seeing a cadaver being taken into the apartment.
4.  A witness testifying seeing a cadaver being taken out of the apartment.

5. A DNA sample of someone who should not be in the apartment.  (DNA not matching any known visitor or occupant)

5 is just information.
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline Brietta

Re: Does Madeleine have the right to be found?
« Reply #671 on: September 06, 2018, 04:04:55 PM »
Sorry for snipping your post Alice but I have just noticed that it would seem to me that Martin Grime was confident that the dog smelt cadaver scent only that there was a possibility of cross contamination.

I agree with your post entirely, Brietta has changed the meaning of Martin Grimes statement IMO

Explain, please.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Sunny

Re: Does Madeleine have the right to be found?
« Reply #672 on: September 06, 2018, 04:10:32 PM »
I know the quote very well, but I wanting to understand what you were trying to say when you said " I have just noticed that it would seem to me that Martin Grime was confident that the dog smelt cadaver scent only that there was a possibility of cross contamination".  Would you be able to put that in your own words?

For yourself and Brietta.
Martin Grime

My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD’s alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is “cadaver scent” contaminant.  This  does  not  how  however  suggest  a  motive  or suspect  as  cross  contamination   could  be  as  a  result  of  a  number  of  given  scenarios"


I didn't think it was that difficult to understand but he seems to be saying the alert is suggestive to cadaver scent but it is possible it is a result of cross contamination.  The motive or suspect are not necessary for understanding his statement IMO.

It seems very clear to me.
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Offline Brietta

Re: Does Madeleine have the right to be found?
« Reply #673 on: September 06, 2018, 04:42:30 PM »
For yourself and Brietta.
Martin Grime

My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD’s alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is “cadaver scent” contaminant.  This  does  not  how  however  suggest  a  motive  or suspect  as  cross  contamination   could  be  as  a  result  of  a  number  of  given  scenarios"


I didn't think it was that difficult to understand but he seems to be saying the alert is suggestive to cadaver scent but it is possible it is a result of cross contamination.  The motive or suspect are not necessary for understanding his statement IMO.

It seems very clear to me.

I will get back to you on this at a later date.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2018, 03:16:43 PM by John »
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Does Madeleine have the right to be found?
« Reply #674 on: September 06, 2018, 06:47:54 PM »
5 is just information.
Well would you say the same if they located a perfect match to Madeleine's DNA  at the locations that Keela had alerted at?  Had the FSS came back with a match to the blood spot samples found in the apartment and the body fluid samples in the hire car, would you have described them as "just information"?

By definition corroborating evidence is "just information" "that tends to support a proposition that is already supported by some initial evidence".

Madeleine had been in the apartment so finding her DNA there could be expected.  So how can Madeleine's DNA in the apartment be considered corroborating evidence?  That is the question no one has really been able to answer.

Yet all the emphasis was on finding Madeleine's DNA at that location, so why were they doing that?
« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 07:02:03 PM by Robittybob1 »
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