Author Topic: Can we at least work out who moved the Twins?  (Read 611 times)

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Online Robittybob1

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Re: Can we at least work out who moved the Twins?
« Reply #30 on: October 04, 2018, 01:26:02 PM »
The reply is in my opinion inadequate and I am surprised you feel unable to reply on your own behalf.

So from what you and Gunit concur on ... may we make the inference that the Portuguese police who should have been controlling the situation from the minute their boots touched the ground in Luz in the investigation on behalf of the missing child, were not using any observational skills while they should have been directing operations.

The discussion here concerns the movement of the children while under the Portuguese police watch.  Yet the question can be asked to where they were moved and by whom because there is no official record of the event from those whose duty it was to be in direct control of the situation.
Which by definition means in my opinion that they were not doing their job particularly in relation to safeguarding the children.
When you get a situation where both managers of the OC MW organisation say they can't remember what was going on, we have trouble.

The consensus is that the children were initially in the apartment.  I was under the impression the discussion centres on their movement thereafter.
 

I did agree with G-unit the twins were moved out of 5A around 2:00 AM and go up to Payne's later.   There isn't enough GNR to do searching and child minding.  They are undermanned for that.
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Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Can we at least work out who moved the Twins?
« Reply #31 on: October 04, 2018, 01:31:05 PM »
The reply is in my opinion inadequate and I am surprised you feel unable to reply on your own behalf.

So from what you and Gunit concur on ... may we make the inference that the Portuguese police who should have been controlling the situation from the minute their boots touched the ground in Luz in the investigation on behalf of the missing child, were not using any observational skills while they should have been directing operations.

The discussion here concerns the movement of the children while under the Portuguese police watch.  Yet the question can be asked to where they were moved and by whom because there is no official record of the event from those whose duty it was to be in direct control of the situation.
Which by definition means in my opinion that they were not doing their job particularly in relation to safeguarding the children.

How can you say that with any degree of certainty?
The only way I can conceive of is that you have personally examined all the files and documents in Portimao Court. When did you do that?
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Offline Eleanor

Re: Can we at least work out who moved the Twins?
« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2018, 01:31:53 PM »
Can you show me a cite showing the PJ   found nothing?

Were The McCanns arrested?  I don't need to provided a Cite for that fact.

Offline Brietta

Re: Can we at least work out who moved the Twins?
« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2018, 01:32:24 PM »
cite for not interviewing the mccanns.......I would think they certainly have....you do not know that they havent

Many witnesses have been interviewed in Britain by Scotland Yard and some have been interviewed by them in Portugal, I'm willing to bet if anyone could suggest a maximum of four named persons interviewed in Britain I think they would be doing well, yet we know that interviews have taken place if the evidence is anything to go by.

We have no idea who the PJ have interviewed in Portugal as part of their investigation there just as we have no idea who SY have interviewed here as part of theirs.
Therefore the suggestion that they have not spoken with material witnesses is in my opinion nothing more than unfounded speculation.
The remit of Operation Grange is to investigate ...  "(as if the abduction occurred in the UK)"

Offline Brietta

Re: Can we at least work out who moved the Twins?
« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2018, 01:37:23 PM »
As the McCanns' don't appear to have been doing prior to Madeleine's disappearance Brietta.

I cannot see why it is the Portuguese Polices job to look after the twins and presumably the other children with the party. That is up to the parents IMO.

The Portuguese police were attending an emergency involving a missing child ... yet the sceptics here appear to be condoning their lack of diligence in controlling the situation they were called to investigate??
The remit of Operation Grange is to investigate ...  "(as if the abduction occurred in the UK)"

Online Robittybob1

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Re: Can we at least work out who moved the Twins?
« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2018, 01:37:49 PM »
It seems the mattress for Kate and Gerry came off a spare bed in the Paynes' apartment. According  to Dianne:

" 4078    ”Yeah. So after the twins had been brought up did Fiona and Dave stay in the apartment with you?”
 Reply    ”Yeah well at that point Kate and Gerry came up as well and err because the Police had decided to close off the apartment, bit late in the day but you know, they came up and what we did we got the, there was mattresses on the spare beds in the room where Lily was sleeping so we got them and put them on the floor in the lounge beside the twins so that they could rest, if not sleep, err but by this time it must have been about half past four, five o’ clock in the morning.”
 4078    ”And how were they by that time?”
 Reply    ”Err exhausted and obviously they didn’t sleep, I mean they were out again at the crack of dawn.”
 4078    ”Had anybody else gone from the apartment to do any searching, from your apartment?”
 Reply    ”What, that night? Or…”
 
 4078    ”Mm.”
 Reply    ”Well apart from the initial when, when the men were all err out searching I mean Dave was obviously one of them. I know there was a lot of err a lot of conversation going on about the fact that the Police, the Portuguese Police had not arrived err because I think the, err I don’t know if it was Russell and Dave that went down, only I think to reception and err I think they were also trying to get photographs of Madeleine printed and err I’m not sure if it was because of the, the delay in the Police arriving that they, I’m not sure who informed err Sky News of the event, you know a lot of that err I know Kate and Gerry spent a lot of time on the phone ringing people, they were just so, so beside themselves really.”
 
 4078    ”Once they arrived at your apartment did they stay there a while or do you remember them leaving?”
 Reply    ”What, that night?”
 
 4078    ”Mm.”
 Reply    ”Err I think, I think, I think they stayed there because it was very late or you know early, early morning and Kate wanted a priest, they couldn’t find a priest which, well I won’t, I won’t say what her language was but I’m, you know, Portugal’s a Catholic country and err no priest.”
 
 4078    ”Mm. So the events in your mind of that night are you don’t have a concept of time checking because you were just sitting and waiting and wondering and feeling helpless.”
 Reply    ”Yeah, and I do know it was, it was very, you know, it was something like half past four or five o’ clock in the morning before we got to bed.”
 
 4078    ”Is there anything that we haven’t already covered about the Thursday, and particularly the Thursday evening, that you think it’s important to mention?”
 Reply    ”Well I, I you know, my memory would have to be jogged I think for anything specific because I can’t, you know, eleven months down the line.”
 
 4078    ”Yeah I know, yeah. I mean we have got your statement translated from Portuguese to English if, you’re welcome to, to hear parts of that, I can read parts out to you or let you have a look at it if it would help? It’s entirely up to you whether you want to do that.”
 Reply    ”Well, a lot of that I don’t, yeah I don’t remember but I think at the time I was interviewed err there was a lot of the things I wasn’t sure about and I made that quite clear.”
 
 4078    ”Okay.”
 Reply    ”At you know, I was there on holiday, I don’t sit and watch people or look at my watch all the time so it’s very difficult.”"
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Offline G-Unit

Re: Can we at least work out who moved the Twins?
« Reply #36 on: October 04, 2018, 01:39:13 PM »
those taking them.....In her book Kate tells us the statements are not accurate.....she advises if ever giving a statement in a foreign country...aleays ask to read it in english

Apart from Silvia Batista's and the PJ's, the statements discussing the movements and whereabouts of the twins were taken by Leicestershire Constabulary. Kate's account can be found in her book 'madeleine'
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Offline Davel

Re: Can we at least work out who moved the Twins?
« Reply #37 on: October 04, 2018, 01:52:22 PM »
Apart from Silvia Batista's and the PJ's, the statements discussing the movements and whereabouts of the twins were taken by Leicestershire Constabulary. Kate's account can be found in her book 'madeleine'

Taken some time alter....when memories have weakened..I think it shows how statements can have innaccuracies for innocent reasons

UNLESS OTHERWISE STATED ALL POSTS ARE MY OPINION

Offline Brietta

Re: Can we at least work out who moved the Twins?
« Reply #38 on: October 04, 2018, 01:52:36 PM »
Apart from Silvia Batista's and the PJ's, the statements discussing the movements and whereabouts of the twins were taken by Leicestershire Constabulary. Kate's account can be found in her book 'madeleine'
No statements from the Portuguese police on duty in the wee small hours of the 4th?
Nothing asked in Portuguese police interviews?

In fact nothing official from Portuguese police in attendance at all? 
In my opinion that lack of interest tends to illustrate there was absolutely no official reason for concern about the welfare of any of the children in the aftermath of Madeleine's disappearance.
The remit of Operation Grange is to investigate ...  "(as if the abduction occurred in the UK)"

Offline Eleanor

Re: Can we at least work out who moved the Twins?
« Reply #39 on: October 04, 2018, 02:12:12 PM »

I don't know.  I think that The PJ just weren't up to it, especially with a Lead Detective waiting to be made an Arguido in the case of another missing child.
Probably not their fault.  Just inadequate.

Who moved the twins is of no importance as far as I can see.  But let's not knock Rob.  He puts in a lot of effort.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Can we at least work out who moved the Twins?
« Reply #40 on: October 04, 2018, 02:16:13 PM »
No statements from the Portuguese police on duty in the wee small hours of the 4th?
Nothing asked in Portuguese police interviews?

In fact nothing official from Portuguese police in attendance at all? 
In my opinion that lack of interest tends to illustrate there was absolutely no official reason for concern about the welfare of any of the children in the aftermath of Madeleine's disappearance.

The PJ made sure the family had somewhere to go and then got rid of them so they could do their inspection of the crime scene.

On what are you basing your opinion that the Portuguese police should have concerned themselves with the welfare of any of the children?

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Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Can we at least work out who moved the Twins?
« Reply #41 on: October 04, 2018, 03:17:05 PM »
The Portuguese police were attending an emergency involving a missing child ... yet the sceptics here appear to be condoning their lack of diligence in controlling the situation they were called to investigate??
They weren't called in to act as childminders of non-missing children.
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Offline Brietta

Re: Can we at least work out who moved the Twins?
« Reply #42 on: October 04, 2018, 03:34:59 PM »
The PJ made sure the family had somewhere to go and then got rid of them so they could do their inspection of the crime scene.

On what are you basing your opinion that the Portuguese police should have concerned themselves with the welfare of any of the children?

Did I say I did?

Do you think along the lines that the Portuguese police obviously followed secure in the knowledge that the children were not at any risk at all as far as their parents were concerned?  In my opinion they would not have left them there without observation on the fourth and subsequently ... interesting, if you think they had no locus in child protection duties and they just didn't care.
The remit of Operation Grange is to investigate ...  "(as if the abduction occurred in the UK)"

Offline Sunny

Re: Can we at least work out who moved the Twins?
« Reply #43 on: October 04, 2018, 03:39:14 PM »
Were The McCanns arrested?  I don't need to provided a Cite for that fact.

Did I or you say the PJ found evidence against the McCanns. You said the PJ found nothing with no mention of them, Eleanor.

Personally I believe they found evidence but not enough to charge under the circumstances.
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Offline Brietta

Re: Can we at least work out who moved the Twins?
« Reply #44 on: October 04, 2018, 03:39:49 PM »
They weren't called in to act as childminders of non-missing children.

Would it be official policy given the situation they were attending?  It seems to be thought they had no idea of the location or the status of the McCann twins ... am I alone in thinking that might be remarkable?
The remit of Operation Grange is to investigate ...  "(as if the abduction occurred in the UK)"