Sunny's request for cites

[Sunny]

I have never stated anything different...cite if you disagree...we dont know for sure if the mccanns have been interviewed by grange...I would say they certainly have

You said?

It is absolutely totally ridiculous to suggest SY has not interviewed the mcCanns..

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7204.msg329443#msg329443

[Mr Gray]

You said?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7204.msg329443#msg329443

it is...is that the best you can do...that post was made 2 and a half years ago whe no one put imo on any post

[Brietta]

but according to  a freedom of information request posted here eddie has only been involved in 37 cases

Snip
Grime claims that in a 6 year period in Britain, Eddie was deployed over 200 times. This disclosure under Freedom of Information (FOI) indicates just 37 deployments in the 5 year period 2003-2007.
http://www.southyorks.police.uk/foi/disclosurelog/20090062 Link no longer live

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6271.msg237337#msg237337

[Sunny]

it is...is that the best you can do...that post was made 2 and a half years ago whe no one put imo on any post

Davel I believe the post I cited was somewhat stronger than one which needed an IMO

It is absolutely totally ridiculous to suggest SY has not interviewed the mcCanns..

[Mr Gray]

Davel I believe the post I cited was somewhat stronger than one which needed an IMO

It is absolutely totally ridiculous to suggest SY has not interviewed the mcCanns..

i think you are really struggling ...whether something is ridiculous or not is a matter of opinion...have another go


this is what John had to say  a few posts later...

This is basic policing.  I would have thought that this occurred way back at the outset of Operation Grange.  Former DCI Redwood went public and stated that his team had gone back to basics and looked at everything again from the start, there is no reason to believe every member of the so-called tapas 9 haven't been reinterviewed.

tell John he should not be stating opinion as fact

[Alice Purjorick]

Snip
Grime claims that in a 6 year period in Britain, Eddie was deployed over 200 times. This disclosure under Freedom of Information (FOI) indicates just 37 deployments in the 5 year period 2003-2007.
http://www.southyorks.police.uk/foi/disclosurelog/20090062 Link no longer live

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6271.msg237337#msg237337

Does anyone have a copy?

[Mr Gray]

Does anyone have a copy?

is anyone bothered...it wont make a scrap of difference

[Sunny]

Does anyone have a copy?

Here you are Alice. Davel, actually it DOES make a difference. Read below.

Reference Number: 20090062

Request Date: 19 February, 2009
Response Date: 30 March, 2009

Request Details:
I would like to request the following under the FOI Act:
1. Which cases has Eddie the Springer spaniel sniffer dog been used in within the South Yorkshire Force area over the last five years?
Eddie, the specialist dog is no longer with South Yorkshire Police. He and his handler left the Force in August 2007. The information supplied therefore relates to his service between 2003 and 2007.
Information relating directly to the nature of each Victim Search Dog deployment, if made public could cause unnecessary distress to the persons and families connected with the deceased. However, we can provide the following details regarding Victim Search Dog deployments between 2003 and 2007 :
As two teams working together: handler Ellis and dog Frankie, with handler Grime and dog Eddie have been deployed on twenty occasions, with the recovery of four bodies.
Working alone, Grime/Eddie have been deployed on seventeen occasions with the recovery of one body and Ellis/Frankie have been deployed on five occasions with the recovery of three bodies, this includes the recovery of two women in one grave.


2. Which cases has Eddie the Springer spaniel sniffer dog been used in outside the South Yorkshire Force Area over the last five years? Please provide a breakdown for each year.
Out of the twenty occasions where the dog teams were deployed together, two deployments were in the South Yorkshire Police Force area and the remainder were out of the force.
All seventeen deployments for Grime/Eddie working alone were to external forces.
Two deployments for Ellis/Frankie were in the South Yorkshire Police Force area and the remaining three were to external forces.

3.  What does the South Yorkshire constabulary charge for Eddie the sniffer dog’s services? The daily charges for the deployment of Eddie were £700 per day Monday to Friday and £900 per day for weekly leave days and bank holidays. These charges have not changed over the last five years and are still applicable to date.
4. Please could you provide a breakdown of the fees and expenses charged for each case Eddie the Springer spaniel sniffer dog has been deployed in outside the South Yorkshire area in the last three years?
The breakdown for the fees and expenses charged for the deployment of Eddie the Springer SpanielVictim Search Dog outside the force area are calculated as follows:
The figures are based on 2006-2007 costing:
Salary cost Police Constable: £41,900, 8 hour productive day £192.20
Deployment based on 16 hour day Mon to Friday more than 7 days notice
Cost for 8 hour working day
Cost for 8 hours overtime
NI on above
Cost dog for the day £10.52
Use of vehicle based on 300 miles
5% Admin fee
The total amounts to £837 but SYP would charge £700

Deployment based on 16 hour day Saturday or Sunday including Bank Holidays or less 7 days notice
Cost for 16 hours at double time
NI on above
Cost dog for the day £10.52
Use of vehicle based on 300 miles
5% Admin fee
The total amounts to £1035.50 but SYP would charge £900
5. To whom is money made payable for the services of Eddie the sniffer dog?
All monies received for the deployment of Eddie during his time with South Yorkshire Police were paid to South Yorkshire Police.
6. Who owns Eddie the sniffer dog?
Ownership of Eddie was transferred from South Yorkshire Police to his handler Martin Grime when he retired from the Force in 2007.
7. What training did Eddie receive to assist him in his duties?
When Eddie was with South Yorkshire Police he received training in line with the ACPO dog committee standards for specialist dog training. The training was and in relation to current dogs is 18 days per annum.

https://madmyst.blogspot.com/p/blog-page_777.html

If you notice the FOI request was for cases that Eddie worked on from 2003 to 2007.   Back in 2002 he was already finding bodies.

In March, 2002, they played a major role in locating the body of Barnsley murder victim 21-year-old Shane Collier. Even though his body had been cut up into parts and buried five months earlier, the dogs found them in a remote woodland in Cumbria. The South Yorkshire police dogs Frankie and Eddie and their handlers now work as part of the special search unit operation by the National Crime and Operations Faculty.

http://eddieandkeela.blogspot.com/2010/06/eddie-and-martin-grime.html

So I guess the tallies within the cite don't cover all the cases Eddie worked on nor all the bodies found by him.  So how many cases did Eddie work on if you add at least another year or possibly 18 months onto the totals above as Eddie was 3 years old in April 2004 so born in 2001.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6291.150

[misty]

Taken from the ACPO Homicide Working Group Manual published in 2011....
http://library.college.police.uk/docs/J_Homicide_MII/J_Homicide_7.2.pdf   (page 45)


The South Yorkshire Police dog team have been at the forefront of the training
and operational running of Victim Recovery (body) and Forensic Evidence
(human blood) Search dogs for over 12 years. Within that time they have had
over 500 hundred deployments throughout the UK.
"



Taken from John Ellis's CV  http://www.criteriontrainingsolutions.co.uk/john-ellis.html

2000 he qualified as a Victim Recovery Dog (Body Dog) Handler and Instructor (and continues in this role to date).
2001 he qualified as an ACPO (Now NPCC) Explosive Detection Dog Instructor.
2002 he was seconded to the National Crime and Operations Faculty as a Victim Recovery Dog Handler providing cover and advice on a worldwide basis.
2004 he qualified at the University of Glasgow in the Identification of Human Remains in the field.
2004 he was awarded UK Police Dog Action of the Year (Victim Recovery).
2005 John was promoted to Temporary Sergeant of South Yorkshire Police Dog School responsible for the training of 45 Police Dog Handlers and 70+ Police Dogs.

In 2006 John retired from the Police but continued as a civilian Instructor in the Police Dog School and an Operational Victim Recovery Search Dog Handler.   In 2009 John prepared the Units of Assessment for The Forensic Evidence Search Dogs for inclusion in the ACPO Training and Care Manual, which is still used today by every Police Dog Section in the UK.


I'll leave the statistical probability of Eddie/Grime being involved in 200 of the circa 500 cases spanning a 12 year period to someone more capable than me.

[Sunny]

Taken from the ACPO Homicide Working Group Manual published in 2011....
http://library.college.police.uk/docs/J_Homicide_MII/J_Homicide_7.2.pdf   (page 45)


The South Yorkshire Police dog team have been at the forefront of the training
and operational running of Victim Recovery (body) and Forensic Evidence
(human blood) Search dogs for over 12 years. Within that time they have had
over 500 hundred deployments throughout the UK.
"



Taken from John Ellis's CV  http://www.criteriontrainingsolutions.co.uk/john-ellis.html

2000 he qualified as a Victim Recovery Dog (Body Dog) Handler and Instructor (and continues in this role to date).
2001 he qualified as an ACPO (Now NPCC) Explosive Detection Dog Instructor.
2002 he was seconded to the National Crime and Operations Faculty as a Victim Recovery Dog Handler providing cover and advice on a worldwide basis.
2004 he qualified at the University of Glasgow in the Identification of Human Remains in the field.
2004 he was awarded UK Police Dog Action of the Year (Victim Recovery).
2005 John was promoted to Temporary Sergeant of South Yorkshire Police Dog School responsible for the training of 45 Police Dog Handlers and 70+ Police Dogs.

In 2006 John retired from the Police but continued as a civilian Instructor in the Police Dog School and an Operational Victim Recovery Search Dog Handler.   In 2009 John prepared the Units of Assessment for The Forensic Evidence Search Dogs for inclusion in the ACPO Training and Care Manual, which is still used today by every Police Dog Section in the UK.


I'll leave the statistical probability of Eddie/Grime being involved in 200 of the circa 500 cases spanning a 12 year period to someone more capable than me.

I don't recall saying that Eddie was involved in 200 cases I simply said he was involved (and found bodies) in more than was on the FOI answer.  I would imagine he quite possibly did 200 searches as Rob said earlier with 6 or so searches per case, that would work.

[misty]

I don't recall saying that Eddie was involved in 200 cases I simply said he was involved (and found bodies) in more than was on the FOI answer.  I would imagine he quite possibly did 200 searches as Rob said earlier with 6 or so searches per case, that would work.

It was Amaral who claimed Eddie was never wrong in 200 homicide cases in UK & USA - see Brietta's post
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10278.msg496884#msg496884.

There is no proof Eddie worked on any cases in USA prior to his retirement from SYP in July 2007.

[Brietta]

The fourth cite Sunny wanted:
"4
Quote from: Sunny on October 12, 2018, 10:14:34 PM
Do you have a cite to show that ashes give off cadaver odour and also one which shows that pyjamas were left on the bedside cabinet following the grandfather's death.

Cadaver odour scent will move around a room and pool, Martin Grime has already explained that the part of a room where Eddie alerted may not be the exact location of where a cadaver may have been placed.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10257.msg494866#msg494866 "

to my knowledge:
1.  Dogs can be trained to find bodies and ashes of victims of fires.  Whether Eddie was trained to do so we are not told.

2.  I think it originally was only suggested that the ashes and pyjamas were on the bedside table.

Eddie doesn't appear to have a problem identifying cremation remains ... which in my opinion makes Sadie's thoughts on the matter valid ones.

Snip
VT / 9 Trench and gun emplacement containing small personnel shelter. Forensic examination revealed recently deposited tissues that appeared to have been used to ‘clean up following sexual intercourse’. It would appear that the shelter had been used as a venue for courting couples. This alert is within the trained parameters of the dog’s repertoire and is a satisfactory explanation of the alert.
Base of an oak tree planted as a memorial to the two sons of Mr Hamon, Flat 2 Delborgho Lodge, Upper Clarendon Road, St Hellier. The cremated remains of the two adult sons had been previously scattered just under the surface of the ground and the tree planted as a permanent memorial together with a plaque. This alert is within the trained parameters of the dog’s repertoire and is a satisfactory explanation of the alert.
There being no other points of interest, intelligence led excavation of the site commenced to locate and investigate defensive positions by excavation, forensic examination and canine screening.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3566.msg135051#msg135051

[Sunny]

Eddie doesn't appear to have a problem identifying cremation remains ... which in my opinion makes Sadie's thoughts on the matter valid ones.

Snip
VT / 9 Trench and gun emplacement containing small personnel shelter. Forensic examination revealed recently deposited tissues that appeared to have been used to ‘clean up following sexual intercourse’. It would appear that the shelter had been used as a venue for courting couples. This alert is within the trained parameters of the dog’s repertoire and is a satisfactory explanation of the alert.
Base of an oak tree planted as a memorial to the two sons of Mr Hamon, Flat 2 Delborgho Lodge, Upper Clarendon Road, St Hellier. The cremated remains of the two adult sons had been previously scattered just under the surface of the ground and the tree planted as a permanent memorial together with a plaque. This alert is within the trained parameters of the dog’s repertoire and is a satisfactory explanation of the alert.
There being no other points of interest, intelligence led excavation of the site commenced to locate and investigate defensive positions by excavation, forensic examination and canine screening.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3566.msg135051#msg135051

I accept that the dogs will alert to cremated ashes but I still haven't seen any evidence of a cite for this and as I cannot see why anyone would keep their dead husbands pyjamas or cremated remains on a bedside cabinet, I think it is important.

If Grandpas Pjays were on the bedside table next to the wall, they would from time to time, maybe always, be touching the wall.  Same with Grandpas ashes
.

If I was looking to keep someone's cremated remains in my house then that is not where  I would keep them, nor his pyjamas. 

To me it looks like clutching at straws to explain a dog's alert, that is, unless evidence is provided to show it was indeed true.

[Mr Gray]

I accept that the dogs will alert to cremated ashes but I still haven't seen any evidence of a cite for this and as I cannot see why anyone would keep their dead husbands pyjamas or cremated remains on a bedside cabinet, I think it is important.

If Grandpas Pjays were on the bedside table next to the wall, they would from time to time, maybe always, be touching the wall.  Same with Grandpas ashes
.

If I was looking to keep someone's cremated remains in my house then that is not where  I would keep them, nor his pyjamas. 

To me it looks like clutching at straws to explain a dog's alert, that is, unless evidence is provided to show it was indeed true.

it seems to me you are making the assumption that the alertss relate to a cadaver being present in 5a....I dont believe tht to be true and there is no reliable evidence to support it.

[Vertigo Swirl]

I accept that the dogs will alert to cremated ashes but I still haven't seen any evidence of a cite for this and as I cannot see why anyone would keep their dead husbands pyjamas or cremated remains on a bedside cabinet, I think it is important.

If Grandpas Pjays were on the bedside table next to the wall, they would from time to time, maybe always, be touching the wall.  Same with Grandpas ashes
.

If I was looking to keep someone's cremated remains in my house then that is not where  I would keep them, nor his pyjamas. 

To me it looks like clutching at straws to explain a dog's alert, that is, unless evidence is provided to show it was indeed true.

Where is the correct place to put your Grandpa’s ashes then?