Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata

[faithlilly]

Please think carefully about the implication of the following statement for which a cite is provided.

The cadaver dog was apparently unable to make an alert when the item for inspection was wrapped in brown paper and only did so when the paper wrapping was slashed on request.



Snip
He said they then went to a Detroit Police Department evidence room, where investigators wrapped Bianca's car seat in brown paper and hid it in an office within a number of rooms.

Grime said there was no response during the first search, when the car seat was sealed inside the brown paper. He then asked officers to put a slit in the paper and move the car seat to another room.

"The second time, when the dog got close to the package, he put his nose in the package and gave a positive response," Grime said.
http://eddieandkeela.blogspot.com/2012/10/expert-testifies-that-cadaver-dog-gave.html

Was the dog above Eddie ?

[Robittybob1]

Was the dog above Eddie ?

From the article it sounds like the dog's name was "Morse".

See if you can find the glaring error in this report?  It seems to confirm Gerry McCann was right when he said "ask the dogs".
""You have no way of telling what Morse responded to at any location?" Johnson asked Grime.

"He gave us a positive response," Morse said. "The corroboration would normally be to find a cadaver or bone or blood that you can see."

"The dog did not give a positive response to the clothing worn by Mr. Lane, correct?" Johnson asked.

"No," Grime said."

[misty]

It would be the concrete pad on which the garage stood misty, not a panel.

You say dogs have been know to fail to alert to buried bodies wrapped in plastic sheeting.  To me you appear to be implying a general statement that all dogs would not alert. The relevant question IMO is has Eddie ever failed to alert to a buried body wrapped in plastic sheeting. I think the answer to that is no.   IMO your statement on this has no validity in the McCann case and could have no validity anywhere else without a cite.

I wasn't referring to Eddie as I have been reliably informed he has never been proven wrong in 200 cases. However, if a cadaver dog fails to alert to a place where a body is buried, then how is the body to be found without human intervention & thus demonstrating the dog's failure?
Anyway, in the case of David Guilfoyle, the killer took the police to the approximate burial site (a six inch shallow grave, body wrapped in plastic sheeting) but the cadaver dogs didn't find it. You can read the body recovery story here http://library.college.police.uk/docs/J_Homicide_MII/J_Homicide_10.2.pdf    from page 62 on.
P.S. Was rushing earlier & couldn't retrieve cite at that time.

[Robittybob1]

I wasn't referring to Eddie as I have been reliably informed he has never been proven wrong in 200 cases. However, if a cadaver dog fails to alert to a place where a body is buried, then how is the body to be found without human intervention & thus demonstrating the dog's failure?
Anyway, in the case of David Guilfoyle, the killer took the police to the approximate burial site (a six inch shallow grave, body wrapped in plastic sheeting) but the cadaver dogs didn't find it. You can read the body recovery story here http://library.college.police.uk/docs/J_Homicide_MII/J_Homicide_10.2.pdf    from page 62 on.
P.S. Was rushing earlier & couldn't retrieve cite at that time.

Interesting Misty.  The reason the dog missed the alert could be due to the plastic sheeting.  Suggests to me the dogs are sensing substances that could not pass through plastic.

The compounds cadaverine and putrescine would be able to permeate plastic IMO.

"Anticipating the recovery of a body, we had already
got a forensic archaeologist on the team and they, together with a CSI team,
were on standby as we searched the area using the police helicopter, search
teams and specially trained body recovery dogs. To assist the dogs and their
handler to effectively search the area, rod-probes, poles and tape were
systematically placed into the ground. This is in accordance with specialist
search protocols.
It quickly became clear that things might not be as simple as we had hoped. It
was autumn and the ground was wet, heavy and difficult underfoot. More
worryingly, in the years since the body had been buried the area had changed
significantly with trees being felled and replaced and some of the area had
changed from woodland to grouse shooting. We had clearly underestimated the
difficulty that this would pose in trying to follow the directions Fitzpatrick had
given and the indications he had made on the map."


"Based on the previous searches and the areas indicated by Fitzpatrick during his
visit, we identified a number of sites of potential interest and prioritised these for
excavation by the mechanical digger. This proved successful and on the afternoon of Friday 9th November, a piece of blue plastic sheeting was
uncovered. Further examination confirmed the presence of David’s body
wrapped in a plastic sheet located in a shallow grave as described by Fitzpatrick.
Under the supervision of the forensic archaeologist and forensic anthropologist
the body was removed from the grave."

We don't actually have evidence the cadaver dogs actually checked the area where the body was found.

[misty]

Interesting Misty.  The reason the dog missed the alert could be due to the plastic sheeting.  Suggests to me the dogs are sensing substances that could not pass through plastic.

The compounds cadaverine and putrescine would be able to permeate plastic IMO.

"Anticipating the recovery of a body, we had already
got a forensic archaeologist on the team and they, together with a CSI team,
were on standby as we searched the area using the police helicopter, search
teams and specially trained body recovery dogs. To assist the dogs and their
handler to effectively search the area, rod-probes, poles and tape were
systematically placed into the ground. This is in accordance with specialist
search protocols.
It quickly became clear that things might not be as simple as we had hoped. It
was autumn and the ground was wet, heavy and difficult underfoot. More
worryingly, in the years since the body had been buried the area had changed
significantly with trees being felled and replaced and some of the area had
changed from woodland to grouse shooting. We had clearly underestimated the
difficulty that this would pose in trying to follow the directions Fitzpatrick had
given and the indications he had made on the map."


"Based on the previous searches and the areas indicated by Fitzpatrick during his
visit, we identified a number of sites of potential interest and prioritised these for
excavation by the mechanical digger. This proved successful and on the afternoon of Friday 9th November, a piece of blue plastic sheeting was
uncovered. Further examination confirmed the presence of David’s body
wrapped in a plastic sheet located in a shallow grave as described by Fitzpatrick.
Under the supervision of the forensic archaeologist and forensic anthropologist
the body was removed from the grave."

We don't actually have evidence the cadaver dogs actually checked the area where the body was found.

As far as I can gather, the police were searching a very specific area - hence the mechanical diggers later used. I was under the impression that VRDs are deployed in order to cover a large area more effectively & efficiently than human searches alone. Also, doesn't the scent cone? If not, what was Grime's explanation about "the burnt cadaver in the neighbouring property years before" in the Theresa Parker case all about?

[Robittybob1]

As far as I can gather, the police were searching a very specific area - hence the mechanical diggers later used. I was under the impression that VRDs are deployed in order to cover a large area more effectively & efficiently than human searches alone. Also, doesn't the scent cone? If not, what was Grime's explanation about "the burnt cadaver in the neighbouring property years before" in the Theresa Parker case all about?

there are plenty of cases I know nothing about.  I don't know the Theresa Parker case sorry.

[Vertigo Swirl]

Extensive excavations ? I believe it’s a certain section of someone’s back garden so hardly ‘extensive’. Even if dogs had pinpointed the site I’ve yet to find one who can dig up concrete, have you ?

There are five separate tents set up in the back garden, if extensive is not the right word to describe the digs what word would you choose.  As for your second sentence - huh???  Did I suggest the dogs should be digging up concrete??

[misty]

there are plenty of cases I know nothing about.  I don't know the Theresa Parker case sorry.

There are lots of references to it on this forum. Here's a link with some of the "scent from a distant source" mentioned in the case.
http://www.scentevidence.com/2009/07/dog-debate-at-center-of-murder-case.html

[faithlilly]

There are five separate tents set up in the back garden, if extensive is not the right word to describe the digs what word would you choose.  As for your second sentence - huh???  Did I suggest the dogs should be digging up concrete??

Targeted would be the word I’d choose. Whether dogs were involved in that process is unknown at this point.

[Vertigo Swirl]

Targeted would be the word I’d choose. Whether dogs were involved in that process is unknown at this point.

If dogs are involved why hasn’t the exact location been pinpointed?  I thought that’s what they did.

[Robittybob1]

If dogs are involved why hasn’t the exact location been pinpointed?  I thought that’s what they did.

If there was slab of concrete over a body the whole slab could be of interest.  No one place to pin point but a general area.

[Robittybob1]

There are lots of references to it on this forum. Here's a link with some of the "scent from a distant source" mentioned in the case.
http://www.scentevidence.com/2009/07/dog-debate-at-center-of-murder-case.html

Still didn't see a reference to "the burnt cadaver in the neighbouring property years before".  Never mind.

[Brietta]

There are lots of references to it on this forum. Here's a link with some of the "scent from a distant source" mentioned in the case.
http://www.scentevidence.com/2009/07/dog-debate-at-center-of-murder-case.html

Therefore going on those two instances ... of failure to locate cadaver scent from an item wrapped in brown paper ... and failure to locate actual bodily remains wrapped in plastic ... it seems that cadaver dogs are indeed unreliable and are most certainly not infallible.

I imagine the deposition site indicated by the perpetrator is probably similar to the vast forested area where the police suspect Gilroy hid Suzanne Pilley's remains: it is known he stopped on his 'work' journey at a school where he asked for and was given plastic bags.
It seems that using plastic bags to wrap a body not only defeats VRDs but prevents scavengers locating and scattering human remains from a shallow grave as well as preventing changes in the vegetation from nutrients in the soil.

[Robittybob1]

Therefore going on those two instances ... of failure to locate cadaver scent from an item wrapped in brown paper ... and failure to locate actual bodily remains wrapped in plastic ... it seems that cadaver dogs are indeed unreliable and are most certainly not infallible.

I imagine the deposition site indicated by the perpetrator is probably similar to the vast forested area where the police suspect Gilroy hid Suzanne Pilley's remains: it is known he stopped on his 'work' journey at a school where he asked for and was given plastic bags.
It seems that using plastic bags to wrap a body not only defeats VRDs but prevents scavengers locating and scattering human remains from a shallow grave as well as preventing changes in the vegetation from nutrients in the soil.

If the dogs don't alert to a cadaver that can't really come into the reliability equation IMO. 

Reliability is the Number of times a dog alerts compared to the number of tests run.  It really can only be based on actual tests and not actual cases IMO.

Experiment.

Spike 100 places with cadaver odour. 
What percentage are found?  (percentage false negatives)

How often is there an alert at a site where no cadaver material placed (percentage of false positives or reliability).

[faithlilly]

Therefore going on those two instances ... of failure to locate cadaver scent from an item wrapped in brown paper ... and failure to locate actual bodily remains wrapped in plastic ... it seems that cadaver dogs are indeed unreliable and are most certainly not infallible.

I imagine the deposition site indicated by the perpetrator is probably similar to the vast forested area where the police suspect Gilroy hid Suzanne Pilley's remains: it is known he stopped on his 'work' journey at a school where he asked for and was given plastic bags.
It seems that using plastic bags to wrap a body not only defeats VRDs but prevents scavengers locating and scattering human remains from a shallow grave as well as preventing changes in the vegetation from nutrients in the soil.

A cite for the above would be helpful.