Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata

[The General]

Only the digs know what the alerts, were to... I'm convinced there was no cadaver in 5a.. I'm certainly not convinced by Grimes claim Re Cuddle Cat.... For me there is a, massive question over the, alerts... Whe grime says the, alerts have no evidential reliability... It puts them into perspective

I simply don't know. On the one hand, as I mentioned earlier, trained dogs were alerting to the two succinct odours that they are trained to, but then the concept of a dead body lying there and being discovered seems implausible, but not beyond the realms of impossibility.
The only way any of this stitches together for me, even remotely, is if Kate finds Madeleine in some state or other. Because I don't care, no sane mother would blithely go along with their husband's plan to conceal  / concoct in such a manner.
Even this is almost incomprehensible to me.
Might change my user name to Creosote.

[barrier]

Only the digs know what the alerts, were to... I'm convinced there was no cadaver in 5a.. I'm certainly not convinced by Grimes claim Re Cuddle Cat.... For me there is a, massive question over the, alerts... Whe grime says the, alerts have no evidential reliability... It puts them into perspective

Bolded bit,IMO we'll never find out.

[Mr Gray]

I simply don't know. On the one hand, as I mentioned earlier, trained dogs were alerting to the two succinct odours that they are trained to, but then the concept of a dead body lying there and being discovered seems implausible, but not beyond the realms of impossibility.
The only way any of this stitches together for me, even remotely, is if Kate finds Madeleine in some state or other. Because I don't care, no sane mother would blithely go along with their husband's plan to conceal  / concoct in such a manner.
Even this is almost incomprehensible to me.
Might change my user name to Creosote.

Even if maddiehad an accident it takes in the region of 90 mins for cadaver odour to develop... A head injury doesn't produce instant death in these circumstances ..
Just to many impossibilities imo

[Brietta]

It seems to me that she has

Therefore going on those two instances ... of failure to locate cadaver scent from an item wrapped in brown paper ... and failure to locate actual bodily remains wrapped in plastic ... it seems that cadaver dogs are indeed unreliable and are most certainly not infallible.

Dictionary definition.

used for saying that something appears to exist or be true
https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/it-seems

Eleanor has quite rightly shut this meaningless discussion down as per forum rules ... but I beg her indulgence for a right of reply before any more allegations are made about my syntax or content of my posts.

There is absolutely nothing in my original post which cannot be verified as follows ...

Snip
Please think carefully about the implication of the following statement for which a cite is provided.

The cadaver dog was apparently unable to make an alert when the item for inspection was wrapped in brown paper and only did so when the paper wrapping was slashed on request.

Snip
He said they then went to a Detroit Police Department evidence room, where investigators wrapped Bianca's car seat in brown paper and hid it in an office within a number of rooms.

Grime said there was no response during the first search, when the car seat was sealed inside the brown paper. He then asked officers to put a slit in the paper and move the car seat to another room.

"The second time, when the dog got close to the package, he put his nose in the package and gave a positive response," Grime said.
http://eddieandkeela.blogspot.com/2012/10/expert-testifies-that-cadaver-dog-gave.html
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10341.msg499466#msg499466
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Above is my original post … to which Faithlily replied which leads one to presume she read the content which clearly carries a cite for the inability of a cadaver dog to alert through brown paper wrapping paper.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10341.msg499470#msg499470

Below is Misty's post which clearly contains reference to the inability of cadaver dogs to smell cadaver through plastic sheeting ... that makes two very recent cites verifying the content of part of my post.
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Snip
I wasn't referring to Eddie as I have been reliably informed he has never been proven wrong in 200 cases. However, if a cadaver dog fails to alert to a place where a body is buried, then how is the body to be found without human intervention & thus demonstrating the dog's failure?
Anyway, in the case of David Guilfoyle, the killer took the police to the approximate burial site (a six inch shallow grave, body wrapped in plastic sheeting) but the cadaver dogs didn't find it. You can read the body recovery story here http://library.college.police.uk/docs/J_Homicide_MII/J_Homicide_10.2.pdf    from page 62 on.
P.S. Was rushing earlier & couldn't retrieve cite at that time.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10341.msg499473#msg499473

[Brietta]

Eleanor has quite rightly shut this meaningless discussion down as per forum rules ... but I beg her indulgence for a right of reply before any more allegations are made about my syntax or content of my posts.

There is absolutely nothing in my original post which cannot be verified as follows ...

Snip
Please think carefully about the implication of the following statement for which a cite is provided.

The cadaver dog was apparently unable to make an alert when the item for inspection was wrapped in brown paper and only did so when the paper wrapping was slashed on request.

Snip
He said they then went to a Detroit Police Department evidence room, where investigators wrapped Bianca's car seat in brown paper and hid it in an office within a number of rooms.

Grime said there was no response during the first search, when the car seat was sealed inside the brown paper. He then asked officers to put a slit in the paper and move the car seat to another room.

"The second time, when the dog got close to the package, he put his nose in the package and gave a positive response," Grime said.
http://eddieandkeela.blogspot.com/2012/10/expert-testifies-that-cadaver-dog-gave.html
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10341.msg499466#msg499466
_________________________________________________________________________


Above is my original post … to which Faithlily replied which leads one to presume she read the content which clearly carries a cite for the inability of a cadaver dog to alert through brown paper wrapping paper.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10341.msg499470#msg499470

Below is Misty's post which clearly contains reference to the inability of cadaver dogs to smell cadaver through plastic sheeting ... that makes two very recent cites verifying the content of part of my post.
_________________________________________________________________________

Snip
I wasn't referring to Eddie as I have been reliably informed he has never been proven wrong in 200 cases. However, if a cadaver dog fails to alert to a place where a body is buried, then how is the body to be found without human intervention & thus demonstrating the dog's failure?
Anyway, in the case of David Guilfoyle, the killer took the police to the approximate burial site (a six inch shallow grave, body wrapped in plastic sheeting) but the cadaver dogs didn't find it. You can read the body recovery story here http://library.college.police.uk/docs/J_Homicide_MII/J_Homicide_10.2.pdf    from page 62 on.
P.S. Was rushing earlier & couldn't retrieve cite at that time.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10341.msg499473#msg499473

To continue on from that to the rest of my post and to reiterate that there is nothing posted therein which cannot be verified and/or has been the subject of prior discussion on the forum or is as I wrongly surmised 'common knowledge' such as the effects on vegetation of burial of a body...
Quote
I imagine the deposition site indicated by the perpetrator is probably similar to the vast forested area where the police suspect Gilroy hid Suzanne Pilley's remains: it is known he stopped on his 'work' journey at a school where he asked for and was given plastic bags.
It seems that using plastic bags to wrap a body not only defeats VRDs but prevents scavengers locating and scattering human remains from a shallow grave as well as preventing changes in the vegetation from nutrients in the soil.  http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10341.msg499498#msg499498

Snip
I imagine the deposition site indicated by the perpetrator is probably similar to the vast forested area where the police suspect Gilroy hid Suzanne Pilley's remains:
Rescuers in new search for Suzanne Pilley's body
MOUNTAIN rescue teams are preparing for a fingertip search of a remote glen after being drafted in by police to find the body of missing bookkeeper Suzanne Pilley.
Detectives from Lothian and Borders Police have asked volunteer groups to take part in the operation next weekend to help scour parts of the Argyll Forest, in Argyll and Bute.
Although officers are certain Ms Pilley – who vanished from her workplace in Edinburgh in May – is dead, and her body dumped in the scenic woodland which covers more than 60,000 acres, they have been unable to locate her remains.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/191917/Rescuers-in-new-search-for-Suzanne-Pilley-s-body
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Snip
it is known he stopped on his 'work' journey at a school where he asked for and was given plastic bags.

Cleaning supervisor Frances McManus, 50, claimed he turned up at the school on May 5 unannounced and asked for a supply of black bin bags.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/murder-cops-question-whether-suzanne-1060269
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Snip
prevents scavengers locating and scattering human remains from a shallow grave

Postmortem Animal Attacks on Human Corpses
https://cdn.intechopen.com/pdfs/58532.pdf
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Snip
 ... as well as preventing changes in the vegetation from nutrients in the soil.

Because different species may leave distinct chemical signatures in the soil that could in turn affect how vegetation grew at the site, it only made sense to test the technology on humans.
Mundorff also wanted untouched soil, which the Knoxville site lacked after decades of research burials. She would have to wait more than two years for perimeter fencing to be installed around a new plot of land, recently donated to the university, before she could begin her work.
In the meantime, working with colleagues at Texas State University, Mundorff buried a body on a 5-acre forensic anthropology facility run by the university south of Austin. She hired a graduate student to monitor the site and how plants responded to buried bodies.
http://discovermagazine.com/2015/oct/14-body-of-evidence
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[Brietta]

Eleanor. Do it then. Brietta picked me up on my use of words then stopped all discussions on it when I tried to explain. Now you try to do the same when I pick up her use of words.  This is not fair discussion IMO.

Please provide a cite to substantiate your allegation.  If your post has been deleted there will be a record of it ... if not you will be able to link to it with little problem.

[Sunny]

Please provide a cite to substantiate your allegation.  If your post has been deleted there will be a record of it ... if not you will be able to link to it with little problem.

You are correct it took no time to find.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10243.705

I hope I can beg to differ regarding your original post and reasons you give for excusing it from a cite.

[Brietta]

You are correct it took no time to find.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10243.705

I hope I can beg to differ regarding your original post and reasons you give for excusing it from a cite.

Hmmmm ... in my opinion paraphrasing "we are almost certain" into "He said he had found Jane Tanners man" just does not work for me in terms of what DCI Redwood actually said and your opinion of it. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10243.msg499226#msg499226

In my opinion you are taking the wrong tack in attempting to translate "... it seems that cadaver dogs are indeed unreliable and are most certainly not infallible." into anything other than it was in reference to two very recent posts forming part of the discussion ... one by me and one by Misty (detailed here ... http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10341.msg499543#msg499543)

To that end, like every other member, you can discuss whatever comes to mind just as long as it is accurate and reflects whatever the topic is on the thread you are posting on at the time ... this one being "Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata"

[Robittybob1]

A cite for the above would be helpful.

It has been discussed within this thread.  Most is Brietta's opinion and hence doesn't need cites.

[Vertigo Swirl]

It seems to me that she has

Therefore going on those two instances ... of failure to locate cadaver scent from an item wrapped in brown paper ... and failure to locate actual bodily remains wrapped in plastic ... it seems that cadaver dogs are indeed unreliable and are most certainly not infallible.

Dictionary definition.

used for saying that something appears to exist or be true
https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/it-seems

Why not look up “it appears” too while you’re at it?

[Robittybob1]

It seems or at least it appears we are right off topic -  drop the old history please.  Think Zapata, cadaver odour and the McCanns  OK.

[G-Unit]

I simply don't know. On the one hand, as I mentioned earlier, trained dogs were alerting to the two succinct odours that they are trained to, but then the concept of a dead body lying there and being discovered seems implausible, but not beyond the realms of impossibility.
The only way any of this stitches together for me, even remotely, is if Kate finds Madeleine in some state or other. Because I don't care, no sane mother would blithely go along with their husband's plan to conceal  / concoct in such a manner.
Even this is almost incomprehensible to me.
Might change my user name to Creosote.

I don't think you should assume things. There's nothing to suggest Gerry was the 'ringleader' in anything as far as I know. I also know of nothing which tells us what 'sane mothers' might or might not do.

[Robittybob1]

I don't think you should assume things. There's nothing to suggest Gerry was the 'ringleader' in anything as far as I know. I also know of nothing which tells us what 'sane mothers' might or might not do.

Come on - I see a relationship very dominated by Gerry.

[Vertigo Swirl]

I don't think you should assume things. There's nothing to suggest Gerry was the 'ringleader' in anything as far as I know. I also know of nothing which tells us what 'sane mothers' might or might not do.

Surely your own personal experience of mothers, sane or otherwise is something you know of?

[The General]

I don't think you should assume things. There's nothing to suggest Gerry was the 'ringleader' in anything as far as I know. I also know of nothing which tells us what 'sane mothers' might or might not do.

You're right, I haven't assumed anything. My point being, there's no way, in my irrelevant opinion, with the benefit of my first hand experience of the maternal instinct, that a hypothetical Kate would countenance the premise of concealing an accident or other to one of her hypothetical children. The caveat being, and I stated one such variable, that an impaired / coerced / irrational state of mind may be a factor.
So I'm not suggesting Gerry was anything.