Author Topic: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata  (Read 294512 times)

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Offline Sunny

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #480 on: November 06, 2018, 03:50:28 PM »
I believe there is a thread on this so I will not divert this topic.

Hopefully not OT but why are no supporters  questioning any part of the FSS results. Would that be because the FSS was supportive of the McCanns position?   

If the dogs alerted to Murat's and not the McCanns' property would the supporters agree with the dogs then?
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Offline Mr Gray

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #481 on: November 06, 2018, 03:50:38 PM »
It's still evidence which may or may not be later used in a trial.  Eleanor said there was no evidence which is incorrect.  If a body is found in or around Luz at some later date then depending on what the forensic pathologist or anthropologist finds, that evidence could become important.  Simply saying that there is no evidence signifies a failure to understand the case evidence correctly imo.

And I would say your posts shows a failure to understand  the evidence imo

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #482 on: November 06, 2018, 05:33:13 PM »
Their entire demeanor following the child's disappearance reeked of guilt but then one could put that down to the shame over the neglect allegations and the consequences which could very well have flowed from them.  Both would have been struck off and lost their medical careers imo.
What even if the practice of leaving kids in the apartments is common practice?
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Offline slartibartfast

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #483 on: November 06, 2018, 05:35:12 PM »
What even if the practice of leaving kids in the apartments is common practice?

That is the problem, it hasn’t been a common practice for many years.
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline Eleanor

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #484 on: November 06, 2018, 05:53:18 PM »
That is the problem, it hasn’t been a common practice for many years.

In Your Opinion.

Offline slartibartfast

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #485 on: November 06, 2018, 05:58:58 PM »
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #486 on: November 06, 2018, 06:09:54 PM »
That is the problem, it hasn’t been a common practice for many years.
If the Code of professional conduct for a UK doctor was anything like the NZ code for veterinarians http://www.vetcouncil.org.nz/CPC/ProfIntegrity/CPC_ProfIntegrity.php  there had to be a charge or conviction for a criminal act first.
"Veterinarians must, at the time of completing their annual practising certificate application, declare if they have:
Any health conditions;
Been charged with or found guilty of a criminal offence;
Been suspended or dismissed on conduct or competence grounds;
Resigned for reasons relating to competence or conduct;
Been subject to an adverse finding by an overseas veterinary regulatory body.
Veterinarians must also consider notifying VCNZ of any of the above issues at the time they arise rather than delaying until the annual practising certificate round.
 
 Understanding Section 11
 
Notifying Health Concerns
 
Veterinarians must declare any health conditions with the potential to affect their fitness to practise in their annual practising certificate applications.
 
Conditions that may affect a veterinarian's ability to practise include:
Alcohol or drug abuse or dependence;
Mental health issues, including depressive disorders;
Stress related impairment;
Declining competence due to loss of motor skills or the early stages of dementia;
Physical deterioration due to injury, disease or degeneration;
Other illnesses and injuries.
 
Veterinarians should not rely on their own assessment of the impact of their condition on their practice. If in doubt the condition should be notified or advice sought from the VCNZ Registrar.
 
It is strongly recommended that veterinarians notify VCNZ of any health issues at the time they arise and not wait until the annual practising certificate renewal round. VCNZ's experience is that early notification and early intervention results in better outcomes. Unless the VCNZ Health Committee can work with the veterinarian and treating health practitioners at the beginning, there is a likelihood that treatment plans may need to be altered following the (later) practising certificate declaration.
 
The VCNZ Policy on Health Impaired Veterinarians sets out how the VCNZ's Health Committee manages unwell practitioners. The approach is non-judgmental, rehabilitative and confidential, except in extreme cases where the veterinarian refuses to co-operate and the public interest is threatened.
 
Notifications should be in writing to the VCNZ Registrar and include copies of medical reports where relevant.
 
Before notifying veterinarians are encouraged to contact the VCNZ Registrar to discuss their situation and to find out what information is needed.
 
Notifying Competence and Conduct issues
 
VCNZ must be satisfied that veterinarians remain competent and fit to practise. Matters occurring in New Zealand or overseas that may bring a veterinarian's competence or fitness to practise into question include:
Police investigations, criminal charges or convictions, including traffic offences involving alcohol and/or drugs;
Investigations by an employer, or registration or professional body or educational institution or other authority that may become the subject of disciplinary proceedings;
Suspension or dismissal from work on conduct or competence grounds;
Resignation for reasons related to competence or conduct;
Adverse findings in any disciplinary actions by an employer, registration, professional body or other authority.
 
Veterinarians must declare such matters in their annual practicing certificate applications.
 
It is also strongly recommended that veterinarians notify VCNZ of these matters at the time they occur and not wait until the annual practising certificate renewal round.
 
Veterinarians should not rely on their own assessment as to whether this matter impacts adversely on their practice. If in doubt the matter should be notified or advice sought from the VCNZ Registrar.
 
Failure to notify can have serious consequences.
 
The VCNZ Policy on Competence and Competence Assessment contains information on how VCNZ manages performance concerns.
 
Notifications about conduct are considered in the first instance by VCNZ, to determine whether the matter adversely affects on the veterinarian's fitness to practice. VCNZ takes into account the individual circumstances of each case. For example, in the case of convictions or adverse disciplinary findings, VCNZ will consider:
The severity of the matter;
Any extenuating circumstances;
Subsequent conduct and any steps taken to rehabilitate;
The veterinarian's attitude - including, where relevant, the steps taken to address reparation and their insight into the impact of their actions.
 
Notifications should be in writing to the VCNZ Registrar and include copies of relevant background information. For example copies of disciplinary findings and orders, conviction notices etc
 
Before notifying VCNZ, veterinarians are encouraged to contact the VCNZ Registrar to discuss their situation and to find out what information is needed."
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John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline sadie

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #487 on: November 06, 2018, 07:28:41 PM »
Perhaps they were wrong too
What does 90% accurate mean....it means nothing without details of the, tests

It means 10% wrong

Offline sadie

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #488 on: November 06, 2018, 07:32:59 PM »
You are totally exaggerating and misrepresenting what I have written.  I am at a loss as to why you are so incredibly defensive of Stockham however.  From the court testimony
“Stockham testified that Grime was a recognized expert in the field of animal behavior in the United Kingdom who worked with and trained Morse and Keela. Stockham tested Grime and Morse in 2011. On one occasion, Morse gave a “nonproductive response” when he “barked in a blank room.” No samples were in the room, but Stockham could not exclude the possibility that trace matter was there.

According to Stockham, no instruments can detect and confirm the presence of human remains. It is not clear whether a dog reacts to single compound or a combination of compounds in a decomposing body. Therefore, nonproductive responses cannot be verified as correct or incorrect. Instead, Stockham assumes that the result is correct if the dog has routinely passed testing before and after the incident. Grime admitted that there was no scientific testing method that could corroborate Morse's responses in this case.”

Maybe he wanted the  treat he gets for alerting ?

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #489 on: November 06, 2018, 07:45:58 PM »
Maybe he wanted the  treat he gets for alerting ?
We don't actually see Eddie being rewarded for  making an alert in the McCann case.
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John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #490 on: November 06, 2018, 07:49:12 PM »
We don't actually see Eddie being rewarded for  making an alert in the McCann case.

If grime thinks eddie alerted to CC then I dont think much of the alerts

Offline misty

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #491 on: November 06, 2018, 08:56:25 PM »
I thought it was because the dogs in the Zapara case didn't have Morse's track record?

Yes, you are correct. so 2 of the 4 criteria had not been met. The reliability issue related to 3 dogs but only 2 were shown in the video.
We can only wonder how Eddie's track record would have been corroborated in court, should it have been necessary.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #492 on: November 06, 2018, 09:03:38 PM »
Yes, you are correct. so 2 of the 4 criteria had not been met. The reliability issue related to 3 dogs but only 2 were shown in the video.
We can only wonder how Eddie's track record would have been corroborated in court, should it have been necessary.

By reference to his performance during his licencing assessments for a start imo.

In the UK, police dogs are used that are trained and licensed to a national standard.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
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Offline misty

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #493 on: November 06, 2018, 09:09:22 PM »
Hopefully not OT but why are no supporters  questioning any part of the FSS results. Would that be because the FSS was supportive of the McCanns position?   

If the dogs alerted to Murat's and not the McCanns' property would the supporters agree with the dogs then?
The FSS were working with tangible evidence using a recognised scientific procedure. If the tests were inconclusive then why would they have risked their reputation one way or the other?
Had the dogs alerted to any Murat property, he would either have been arrested or found himself in the same position as the McCanns did/do, albeit with rather more circumstantial evidence against him. We can only speculate what the McCanns/PJ would have done as a result and how he would have been treated by the MSM & Social Media.

Offline misty

Re: Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata
« Reply #494 on: November 06, 2018, 09:23:13 PM »
By reference to his performance during his licencing assessments for a start imo.

In the UK, police dogs are used that are trained and licensed to a national standard.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm

It would have been interesting to see the licencing assessment records, given his failure to produce the requisite documents during Operation Rectangle.