Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata

[Robittybob1]

If I tell you you won’t accept it and move the goalposts so what’s the point?

You complained about ad hom.  That is getting close IMO.

[slartibartfast]

It seems to have been edited by Slarti. Here's the original being answered by Angelo;

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10341.msg500513#msg500513

Davel give an opinion as fact which was flagged up. The post was modified and the flagging up removed. Apologies for the confusion.

[Vertigo Swirl]

You complained about ad hom.  That is getting close IMO.

That’s fine, I never said I was an angel in that department anyway :-)

[sadie]

Eleanor is wrong. Police don't make people official suspects in the absence of credible evidence.

I beg to differ on that Angelo.  Generally Police do not make people official suspects without credible evidence, but this was different..

See the Cipriano case, and IMO the subhuman way that Leonor was tortured to intimidate her through severe pain into submitting.  Had there been ANY real evidence, then the torture would not have been necessary and not used.   [Unless they enjoyed torturing, of course]


And IMO there was no evidence against The Mccanns whatsoever ... unless you know of any. 
If so please cite it, cos I would like to know about it.

TY.

[Robittybob1]

https://youtu.be/lf5XSZfJRzg is another documentary on Eugene Zapata (I think it is different from the one on the OP)  (this one is a "48 Hours Mystery Into Thin Air: The Murder of Jean Zapata."

It seems to be similar but is it the same?  "Dateline 48 Hours Mystery 2018 Mystery Into Thin Air"  Very similar title.

[Mr Gray]

I beg to differ on that Angelo.  Generally Police do not make people official suspects without credible evidence, but this was different..

See the Cipriano case, and IMO the subhuman way that Leonor was tortured to intimidate her through severe pain into submitting.  Had there been ANY real evidence, then the torture would not have been necessary and not used.   [Unless they enjoyed torturing, of course]


And IMO there was no evidence against The Mccanns whatsoever ... unless you know of any. 
If so please cite it, cos I would like to know about it.

TY.

Surely parents, are always, suspects, when a child disappears  which proves Angelo wrong

[Robittybob1]

Surely parents, are always, suspects, when a child disappears  which proves Angelo wrong

They might be suspects but are they made arguidos?

[Mr Gray]

They might be suspects but are they made arguidos?

Any parent of a missing child is treated as a suspect.. Not just a witness... So yes made arguidos...

[Brietta]

Surely parents, are always, suspects, when a child disappears  which proves Angelo wrong

Obviously those closest to a missing child have to be minutely scrutinised if for nothing more than elimination purposes; I think there is evidence in the files that the Portuguese and English police liaised and did just that.

[Brietta]

They might be suspects but are they made arguidos?

In my opinion if there had been any doubts or suspicions about anyone at that initial stage Portuguese law would have been breached if they had not then been constituted arguidos, particularly as the change in the law which would require firm evidence to allow it was some months away in the future.

[Robittybob1]

It is an interesting story - where the kids are torn between the two parents.   
Dog alerted in the crawl space under the house.  Lockup also rented 2001 end 2005 cadaver dogs alerted to the rented lockup. And the hire car??  Now that is surprising. 
In the end she has to wear a wire 30 years after her mother went missing. 

Did he confess?  No.   

Envelopes - stalking notes 1976. 

Landfill examined for 5 days - nothing.

He was charged with murder but what evidence did they have?

The cadaver dog evidence was deemed unreliable.

He was in the home he was barred from.  - the jury could not came to a verdict.

In the end he pleads to plead guilty to reckless homicide.
Violent argument  knocked her out and then he strangled her.

He does not admit she was in the crawl space?   Was there another death? Or did he lie again?

[Robittybob1]

In my opinion if there had been any doubts or suspicions about anyone at that initial stage Portuguese law would have been breached if they had not then been constituted arguidos, particularly as the change in the law which would require firm evidence to allow it was some months away in the future.

In a lot of murder cases the suspects are not arrested until the prosecutors have a watertight case.  Many times the arrest is delayed in the hope of better evidence to come.

[Brietta]

In a lot of murder cases the suspects are not arrested until the prosecutors have a watertight case.  Many times the arrest is delayed in the hope of better evidence to come.

Absolutely  ...  and the criteria for any case at all against Madeleine's parents did not exist as far as the Portuguese prosecutors are concerned.

Snip

To this can be added that, in reality, none of the indications that led to their constitution as arguidos was later confirmed or consolidated. If not, let us see: the information concerning a previous alert of the media – before the police – was not confirmed, the traces that were marked by the dogs were not ratified in laboratory, and the initial indications from the above transcribed email, better clarified at a later date, ended up being revealed as innocuous.
 
Even if, hypothetically, one could admit that Gerald and Kate McCann might be responsible over the child’s death, it would still have to be explained how, where through, when, with what means, with the help of whom and where to they freed themselves of her body within the restricted time frame that would have been available to them to do so. Their daily routine, until the 3rd of May, had been circumscribed to the narrow borders of the ‘Ocean Club’ resort and to the beach that lies next to it, unknowing the surrounding terrain and, apart from the English friends that were with them on holiday there, they had no known friends or contacts in Portugal.

http://madeleinemccann.org/blog/2014/04/20/the-pjs-final-report-the-archiving-dispatch/#adi9

[G-Unit]

In my opinion if there had been any doubts or suspicions about anyone at that initial stage Portuguese law would have been breached if they had not then been constituted arguidos, particularly as the change in the law which would require firm evidence to allow it was some months away in the future.

That rumour came, I believe, from the McCann's lawyer.

Carlos Pinto de Abreu spoke out.

He said: "After September 15, a new procedural penal code was introduced making it necessary for there to be evidence against the citizen to make him an arguido.

"Before September 15, it wasn't necessary. You could be made an arguido without any suspicions or evidence against you.

"Now to constitute anybody as an arguido it is necessary to have evidence in the file.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/portuguese-police-rushed-to-make-mccanns-suspects-to-avoid-new-law-6623136.html

This was the lawyer who seemed to think the police had a good case against the parents and who advised Kate to consider 'owning up'. She lost faith in him and used another lawyer afterwards.

According to the Portugal Resident the change in the Penal Code meant;

To name someone as “arguido” the criminal police force now requires validation by a judge.
http://portugalresident.com/revisions-of-the-criminal-procedure-code

No-one knows whether a judge would have agreed to the McCanns being made arguidos or not because it wasn't tested.

Whatever Operation Grange offered as evidence they were able to have some people made arguidos. It couldn't have been definitive, because they were never charged. Unless, of course, they requested arguido status thenselves for their own protection.

[Brietta]

That rumour came, I believe, from the McCann's lawyer.

Carlos Pinto de Abreu spoke out.

He said: "After September 15, a new procedural penal code was introduced making it necessary for there to be evidence against the citizen to make him an arguido.

"Before September 15, it wasn't necessary. You could be made an arguido without any suspicions or evidence against you.

"Now to constitute anybody as an arguido it is necessary to have evidence in the file.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/portuguese-police-rushed-to-make-mccanns-suspects-to-avoid-new-law-6623136.html

This was the lawyer who seemed to think the police had a good case against the parents and who advised Kate to consider 'owning up'. She lost faith in him and used another lawyer afterwards.

According to the Portugal Resident the change in the Penal Code meant;

To name someone as “arguido” the criminal police force now requires validation by a judge.
http://portugalresident.com/revisions-of-the-criminal-procedure-code

No-one knows whether a judge would have agreed to the McCanns being made arguidos or not because it wasn't tested.

Whatever Operation Grange offered as evidence they were able to have some people made arguidos. It couldn't have been definitive, because they were never charged. Unless, of course, they requested arguido status thenselves for their own protection.

When one reads through the changes made in Portuguese law ... it clarifies in my opinion the rush to have Madeleine's parents constituted arguidos before they came into force and is precisely why it wasn't "tested".

In my opinion if there was no evidence to lay charges after the event ... it stands to reason there was no prior evidence to justify the imposed arguido status.

In my opinion the opportunity for abuse of power involved in the PJ being the sole arbitrators of the imposition of arguidoship might very well have been one of the motivating factors for the necessary change in the law.

Snip

THE 15th revision to the Criminal Procedure Code of the law number 48/2007, which was published on August 29, came into effect on September 15.
The main reasons for this review relate to impositions of International Law, as some rules have been found to be unconstitutional, and the slowness in the criminal process itself.
____________________________________________________________________________

In relation to the investigation stage of a crime, a provision has been included where if there is no grounds that a crime has been committed, an inquiry will not be initiated, which was not the case before.

To name someone as “arguido” the criminal police force now requires validation by a judge.

To protect the suspect’s rights, before the first interview, the person must be informed of the facts that are attributed to them and of the existing evidence, as long as this does not jeopardise the investigation or the fundamental rights of third parties.

Interviews now have a maximum duration of four hours, where previously there was no time limit, and can be resumed for the same period of time but only with a minimum interval of an hour.
Statements made in violation of these limits are considered void.
____________________________________________________________________________

Witnesses can also use the assistance of a lawyer, who can inform them of their rights but cannot intervene in the questioning.On the justice secrecy issue, the changes that were made created a less rigid system. From now on, secrecy may be set aside pending prevailing interests.

http://portugalresident.com/revisions-of-the-criminal-procedure-code