Cadaver dogs are unreliable - Eugene Zapata

[Alice Purjorick]

It would be likely to be similar.

On what scientific or mathematic basis do you arrive at that conclusion?

[Mr Gray]

On what scientific or mathematic basis do you arrive at that conclusion?

LOL...asking for scientific basis when  previously if martin said YES...that was enough...in fact he didnt say yes...he said maybe...and that was still enough

[Alice Purjorick]

LOL...asking for scientific basis when previously if martin said YES...that was enough...in fact he didnt say yes...he said maybe...and that was still enough

Show me where I ever said  that.
All I ever have ever said is that you and other supporters persist in misrepresenting what is written in Mr Grime's deposition which is in the official files in the court archive.

[Mr Gray]

Show me where I ever said  that.
All I ever have ever said is that you and other supporters persist in misrepresenting what is written in Mr Grime's deposition which is in the official files in the court archive.

First I have never suggested you have said anything

second...I  have never misrepresented anything Grime has said..if you think I have..provide a cite...you wont be able to

[Alice Purjorick]

https://nndda.org/Documents/LegalUpdate/Double%20Blind%20Rebuttal.pdf

This factor was dramatically demonstrated during a double-blind study conducted by Dr. Lisa Lit at the University of California at Davis. In this study, entitled Handler Beliefs Affect Scent Detection Dog Outcomes,eighteen drug and/or explosive detection canine teams each completed two searches of the same four rooms. Handlers were falsely told that two conditions contained a paper marking scent location. In reality, no conditions contained drug or explosive scent and any alerting reported by the handlers would be incorrect. In addition, food samples and reward objects were also concealed in the search areas, with some ofthem marked with the paper marker and others not. There were 225 incorrect responses. Defense experts frequently cite this study when asserting the possibilityof handler cueing in criminal proceedings involving a canine alert. It should be noted that The Scientific Working Group on Dog and Orthogonal Detector Guidelines (SWGDOG), evaluated this study. This group was a federally funded work group tasked with developing consensus-based best practices to enhance theperformance of detector dog teams, and was comprised of noted experts from the law enforcement canine and scientific communities. The group found many shortcomings in the study and posted a commentary that can be found within the SWGDOG website at https://swgdog.fiu.edu/.
The study does not indicate whether the handlers rewarded the canines but it is immaterial as, based on the outcome, the canines clearly became confused and frustrated, and the repetitive double-blind testing was a probable cause.

[Mr Gray]

Show me where I ever said  that.
All I ever have ever said is that you and other supporters persist in misrepresenting what is written in Mr Grime's deposition which is in the official files in the court archive.

Could you provide a cite I have persisted in misrepresenting Grimes deposition or remove your untrue allegation

[John]

I know its the weekend so can we please avoid the usual conflicts.  Posts should be constructive but above all amiable. TY

[Robittybob1]

It is all in the training.

Train a dog on a specific scent and it will alert to that scent whether drugs ~ explosives ~ dead or live human bodies.

There is no proof there is only one scent involved with EVRD dogs.  Would decayed blood scent the same as a bone or a tooth.  The dog may have to make decisions regarding previous experiences.  Who knows how it is done?

[Robittybob1]

On what scientific or mathematic basis do you arrive at that conclusion?

Can you suggest any reason it would be different?  Basically the same breeds are used, same anatomy, similar training methods I'd imagine (dogs rewarded for successful find).

[Eleanor]

There is no proof there is only one scent involved with EVRD dogs.  Would decayed blood scent the same as a bone or a tooth.  The dog may have to make decisions regarding previous experiences.  Who knows how it is done?

There was only one EVRD, namely Eddie.  Named by Martin Grime because he taught Eddie how to scent Cadaver Odour along with everything else Eddie had been taught.

This, in my opinion, was the basic problem.

[G-Unit]

look at my post 862....the study raises questions about all dogs  .....questions that can only be answerred by scientific tests...until thos equestions are answerred any claim that eddies alerts in 5a are 90 % accurate have no evidence to support them

No. It raised questions only about the dogs being tested,

[G-Unit]

Do you suspect the Portuguese prosecutors were "init" too?

The Policia Judiciaria having toiled to present a report for the perusal of the Prosecutors exhaustively detailing all aspects of the investigation from start to where they were I rather imagine the prosecutors may have taken the time to peruse that in their decision making.

Why would you think it would be otherwise?

The prosecutor says the McCanns  stayed at the Ocean Club all week and they had no contacts in Portugal. That information, in my opinion, came from the McCanns and their friends as I can see no evidence that the PJ investigated those matters.

[Mr Gray]

No. It raised questions only about the dogs being tested,

No.. It raises questions about dogs and handlers in general
It also raises questions about how the dogs, are tested.... Without knowing how grime and stockham test there, dogs, we cannot judge how accurate the alerts, are

What is also interesting  is, that the, dogs were tested in precisely the way I suggested, a, few, days, ago... Pethaps I understand the, situation better than you think

[G-Unit]

No.. It raises questions about dogs and handlers in general
It also raises questions about how the dogs, are tested.... Without knowing how grime and stockham test there, dogs, we cannot judge how accurate the alerts, are

What is also interesting  is, that the, dogs were tested in precisely the way I suggested, a, few, days, ago... Pethaps I understand the, situation better than you think

It should be noted that the performance of teams used in such small scale research studies, is not
necessarily indicative of operational performance capabilities. The data collected from these 18
participating detection teams cannot be extrapolated to the thousands of deployed teams across the
world.
https://swgdog.fiu.edu/news/2012/swgdog-response-to-lit-k9-study/swgdog_response_to_lit_study.pdf

[Mr Gray]

It should be noted that the performance of teams used in such small scale research studies, is not
necessarily indicative of operational performance capabilities. The data collected from these 18
participating detection teams cannot be extrapolated to the thousands of deployed teams across the
world.
https://swgdog.fiu.edu/news/2012/swgdog-response-to-lit-k9-study/swgdog_response_to_lit_study.pdf

It says it's not necessarily indicative and cannot be extrapolated... I would add it cannot be ignored

Suggesting it raises questions about other dogs and handlers does not contradict either statement...

It raises, serious questions that need to be answered to understand the true reliability of the alerts


It says not necessarily indicative.... Not.... Not indicative