Who killed Bambi ?

[APRIL]

The first shot would have killed SC had the second not supervened but in the interim both pathologists at trial, Dr Vanezis and Prof Knight, said in no uncertain terms the first shot was not immediately fatal and that physiologically it was possible for SC to move around, inflict the second shot and there was a time interval of anything from a few seconds to a few minutes between the 2 shots. 

If the police have leverage over potential prosecution witnesses do you think this makes them less reliable, more reliable or makes no difference?

Did either state, categorically, that it would have been possible for Sheila to move around after the first shot? Did they ever expand on what they meant by it? It seems to me, that having sustained a shot through the neck which grazed a couple of vertebrae  -whilst not immediately fatal, a mortal wound- there may be some discrepancy between the ability to move one's head slightly and the possibility of managing to raise one's self, without putting undue and painful strain on the afflicted area, into an upright position to walk, prior to being felled by the second, immediately fatal shot.

[Myster]

The crime scene photo makes it abundantly clear that she never walked anywhere after the first shot, otherwise blood would have run vertically down her neck and nightdress, not sideways as it appears to do.

[adam]

Both supporters & guilters agree Sheila did not walk around after the first shot.

Supporters have to be very optimistic and believe that Sheila was not totally immobilised after the firsr shot so able to shoot herself a second time. 

[Angelo222]

Both supporters & guilters agree Sheila did not walk around after the first shot.

Supporters have to be very optimistic and believe that Sheila was not totally immobilised after the firsr shot so able to shoot herself a second time.

I read comments some time ago by a supporter who thought that being shot in the throat by a .22 rifle was no more devastating than being hit by an airgun pellet.  I think some people need a reality check.

[Holly Goodhead]

Have you hear Liz Rimmington deny making such  a statement?

I dont know whether or not it was put to her at trial that she made x statement on y date and if so how much, if any, of the content was put to her for her to agree/disagree.  But lets assume counsel put all the content to her why would she disagree regardless of whether the content was accurate to the best of her belief if the police coerced her WS?

[Holly Goodhead]

Did either state, categorically, that it would have been possible for Sheila to move around after the first shot? Did they ever expand on what they meant by it? It seems to me, that having sustained a shot through the neck which grazed a couple of vertebrae  -whilst not immediately fatal, a mortal wound- there may be some discrepancy between the ability to move one's head slightly and the possibility of managing to raise one's self, without putting undue and painful strain on the afflicted area, into an upright position to walk, prior to being felled by the second, immediately fatal shot.

Yes both said from a physiological perspective it was possible but both ruled out any significant movement ie standing, leaving the bedroom and returning on the basis of the blood distribution ie lack of blood stains running down the front of SC's nightdress. 

Both pathologists pretty much agreed on everything except the burn marks to NB's back.  Bottom line is that both agreed SC could have inflicted the second immediately fatal gsw ie they could not say one way or the other murder or suicide. 

[Holly Goodhead]

The crime scene photo makes it abundantly clear that she never walked anywhere after the first shot, otherwise blood would have run vertically down her neck and nightdress, not sideways as it appears to do.

Yes I agree and this is what both pathologists said.  I only said it was possible to show that the level of mobility after the first gsw certainly does not rule out SC inflicting the second gsw.

[Holly Goodhead]

Both supporters & guilters agree Sheila did not walk around after the first shot.

Supporters have to be very optimistic and believe that Sheila was not totally immobilised after the firsr shot so able to shoot herself a second time.

I don't think it's a case of being 'very optimistic'.  The pathological evidence from Dr Vanezis and Prof Knight makes it very clear SC was able to inflict the second gsw.  If this wasn't the case JB would have near zero support. 

[Caroline]

I don't think it's a case of being 'very optimistic'.  The pathological evidence from Dr Vanezis and Prof Knight makes it very clear SC was able to inflict the second gsw.  If this wasn't the case JB would have near zero support.

A second shot in a suicide isn't impossible because there have been others. However, that doesn't mean it is likely. Vanezis made it clear that he would have had 'concerns' had he attended the scene and saw Sheila in situ. 

[Holly Goodhead]

A second shot in a suicide isn't impossible because there have been others. However, that doesn't mean it is likely. Vanezis made it clear that he would have had 'concerns' had he attended the scene and saw Sheila in situ.

Multiple shots in suicide cases happen frequently in US.  In this case the pathological evidence shows it was a distinct possibility.  If this wasn't the case Dr Vanezis would have raised during PM and instead of saying he found nothing to contradict the initial police theory of murder/suicide his feedback to the officers present at PM would have been entirely different.

Of course post trial he was more cautious saying had he seen SC at soc he would have raised certain issues which included the position of rifle and bible.  But was before forensic scientist  Martyn Ismail gave evidence at the 2002 appeal asserting SC was pulled down by her feet moving her head propped against the bedside cabinet which just happens to corroborate with A/PS Woodcock's WS.  SC was moved at soc and the whole soc by way of her body, rifle and bible compromised which jurors and judge were unaware of.

[APRIL]

Multiple shots in suicide cases happen frequently in US.  In this case the pathological evidence shows it was a distinct possibility.  If this wasn't the case Dr Vanezis would have raised during PM and instead of saying he found nothing to contradict the initial police theory of murder/suicide his feedback to the officers present at PM would have been entirely different.

Of course post trial he was more cautious saying had he seen SC at soc he would have raised certain issues which included the position of rifle and bible.  But was before forensic scientist  Martyn Ismail gave evidence at the 2002 appeal asserting SC was pulled down by her feet moving her head propped against the bedside cabinet which just happens to corroborate with A/PS Woodcock's WS.  SC was moved at soc and the whole soc by way of her body, rifle and bible compromised which jurors and judge were unaware of.

Of course, we have to bear in mind that there are more guns in the USA and more who are gun competent. I'm capable of firing a previously loaded rifle at a given target but being able to manipulate it into a position from which it would kill me would be an entirely different proposition. Have you considered that Jeremy may have forced her to fire the shot intended to kill her and fired the second shot himself after the first had failed?

[adam]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://youknowwhokilledyoudontyou.blogspot.com/2011/02/innocent-man-part-4-shawtesko.html%3Fm%3D1&ved=2ahUKEwiOrp75vp_fAhXvVBUIHRG_CJY4FBAWMAJ6BAgHEAE&usg=AOvVaw38j_2Wa6hLzdtwBkixXbYR

'At the 1986 trial Dr Vanezis expressed the view that the first (non-fatal) bullet would have largely incapacitated Sheila, which implied Sheila would have been unable to fire the second shot, further implying that Jeremy had fired both bullets.

Vanezis conveniently forgot his statement on the 30th September 1985, it which he wrote that Sheila would only have been ‘stunned’ after the first bullet was fired and may not have lost consciousness for some considerable time. It wasn’t the only thing Dr Vanezis would happen to forget.'

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At worst Vanezis is saying Sheila would be incapacitated from the first shot. Making Jeremy the killer.

At best Sheila was 'stunned' and stayed alive after the first shot.

Everyone agrees Sheila did not stand up after the first shot. Whether stunned, incapacitated (or both) she was certainly immobilised.

Jeremy shot an almost certainly incapacitated but 100% stunned/immobilised Sheila a second time.

Jeremy could have shot Sheila straight after the first shot or later during the massacre. Either way, an incapacitated or stunned Sheila would have put up no resistance to the second shot.

[adam]

It is very doubtful Jeremy shot Sheila twice in quick succession. A one shot suicide frame is a million times better than a two shot suicide.

The two shots were very close to each other. He knew under the chin was a good location to get a one shot killing.

Sheila was certainly instantly stunned & immobilised after his first shot. Jeremy believed his first shot had killed her. So he left her to continue about his business at WHF.

He later realised a stunned & immobilised Sheila was still breathing. Perhaps when putting her into position & taking the silencer off.

He had to make a snap decision on whether to shoot her again & decided to shoot her in a nearly identical location.

[adam]

This is why Jeremy did not dispute the police when they told him Sheila could not have shot herself twice.

He knew his first shot had 'stunned', 'immobilised' & 'incapacitated' Sheila.

Although still breathing she would have been unconcious & not able to fire the second shot.

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Either the above or he did shoot Sheila twice in quick succeession & had no idea if the police were correct.

[Caroline]

Multiple shots in suicide cases happen frequently in US.  In this case the pathological evidence shows it was a distinct possibility.  If this wasn't the case Dr Vanezis would have raised during PM and instead of saying he found nothing to contradict the initial police theory of murder/suicide his feedback to the officers present at PM would have been entirely different.

Of course post trial he was more cautious saying had he seen SC at soc he would have raised certain issues which included the position of rifle and bible.  But was before forensic scientist  Martyn Ismail gave evidence at the 2002 appeal asserting SC was pulled down by her feet moving her head propped against the bedside cabinet which just happens to corroborate with A/PS Woodcock's WS.  SC was moved at soc and the whole soc by way of her body, rifle and bible compromised which jurors and judge were unaware of.

Frequently with a semi automatic weapon? From what I have read, the phenomenon is rare and generally occurs when the shootist misses essential organs. As we know, the first shot would eventually have killed Sheila and the fact that it's clear she didn't move under her own steam, the likelihood of her re positioning and shooting herself twice, is pretty far fetched.

Are you saying that Vanezis became cautious as  a matter of convenience?

I agree, SC was moved at the SOC, she was moved by Bamber as he looked for what he 'thought' would give the best impression on discovery.