Who killed Bambi ?

[adam]

The two shots into Sheila were only around 2 inches apart from each other.

If the second shot would have killed her instantly, the first shot surely knocked her out. It is agreed she did not stand up after the first shot which would have eventually killed her.

Jeremy had decided under the chin was a very good location for a one shot kill. He was right.The first shot immobilised her & would have eventually been fatal. The second shot was instantly fatal.

After later realising Sheila was still breathing from the first shot, he fired his second shot in the exact same location as the first.

[adam]

If Jeremy was able to get his first Sheila shot away in such a good location, he would not instantly fire a second shot.

He would wait for his hoped & expected first shot reaction from Sheila - death, unconciousness, immobilty, shock, incapacitation.

He got all of the above (except death) from the first shot. So left Sheila to attend to other business inside WHF. 

Minutes later & Sheila was still breathing. He then made a split decision to fire a second shot in the same location.

[adam]

Jeremy fired his first Sheila shot into an excellent location. It was the pre planned location he was aiming for.

The shot certainly or almost certainly instantly immobilised, shocked, incapacitated & knocked her out.

The first shot would have certainly also killed her without the need for a second shot. Although perhaps not instantly.

This highlights that Sheila put up no or minimal resistance prior to the first shot. Allowing Jeremy to take aim into his chosen location.

The claim that Jeremy could not have easily controlled Sheila for a few seconds has always been extremly weak.

[Myster]

A marksman at Greshams meaning had JB been perp the soc would look very different with far fewer shots fired/gsw's. 

In the Bain case both suspects were familiar with firearms.  The murder weapon was the same calibre used at WHF.  In the Bain case we have a total of 5 victims with a total of 8 shots fired/8 gsw's.  At WHF we have a total of 5 victims with 25 or 26 shots fired and 25/26gsw's includes 2 graze wounds.  Of course those that believe JB guilty say he went for overkill to make it look amateurish and overkill.

I don't say that !... far too risky, especially as he'd never shot any human being before.  I just think things went banana-shaped because he disturbed his parents first and so they became moving targets before he had a chance to eliminate them with headshots, and maybe he also overestimated the rifle's power which required more bullets than the ten or eleven he thought were needed.

I also believe David Bain was guilty, because there was so much evidence stacked up against him, i.e. his misleading emergency call and subsequent faulty memory when interviewed of whose bodies he'd actually seen; the fact that he wouldn't let police in when they arrived; the trigger lock key whose location only he knew about; his little brother's bloodstain on the crotch of his shorts; the lens found in Stephen's bedroom and the distorted spectacle frame belonging to his mother (which he wore because his own were broken) with one lens missing found on a chair in his own bedroom; his machine-washing of bloodstained clothing, jersey, etc. in an attempt to destroy evidence; the date of when he had his arm tattoo which he lied about. There may be more which I can't remember offhand.

[APRIL]

I don't say that !... far too risky, especially as he'd never shot any human being before.  I just think things went banana-shaped because he disturbed his parents first and so they became moving targets before he had a chance to eliminate them with headshots, and maybe he also overestimated the rifle's power which required more bullets than the ten or eleven he thought were needed.

I also believe David Bain was guilty, because there was so much evidence stacked up against him, i.e. his misleading emergency call and subsequent faulty memory when interviewed of whose bodies he'd actually seen; the fact that he wouldn't let police in when they arrived; the trigger lock key whose location only he knew about; his little brother's bloodstain on the crotch of his shorts; the lens found in Stephen's bedroom and the distorted spectacle frame belonging to his mother (which he wore because his own were broken) with one lens missing found on a chair in his own bedroom; his machine-washing of bloodstained clothing, jersey, etc. in an attempt to destroy evidence; the date of when he had his arm tattoo which he lied about. There may be more which I can't remember offhand.

I'm inclined to think that if he'd shot with the prowess he'd displayed at Gresham it would have been obvious that it wasn't Sheila's work. Do you not think he'd have regained some equilibrium by the time he got to the twins, or might it be that it's loss was caused by shooting them?........................OR, having made a bit if a pig's ear of dispatching the parents, could he have made it work in his favour by using more shots than necessary on the children?

[Myster]

I'm inclined to think that if he'd shot with the prowess he'd displayed at Gresham it would have been obvious that it wasn't Sheila's work. Do you not think he'd have regained some equilibrium by the time he got to the twins, or might it be that it's loss was caused by shooting them?........................OR, having made a bit if a pig's ear of dispatching the parents, could he have made it work in his favour by using more shots than necessary on the children?

I'm just trying to picture myself in that master bedroom in the dead of night ready to shoot my sleeping parents (God forbid), armed with a rifle loaded with only ten or eleven bullets and being extremely careful not to waste any.  My first priority would have been to try to ensure that I didn't wake them beforehand, for example by not alarming Crispy, so that their execution would be as swift as possible.  But even the most well thought out plans go awry, and if I disturbed them so that they began to move, I'd probably fire off as many bullets as I could without too much thought about placement to prevent them getting out of bed and resisting, especially so in the case of Nevill.  I'd be nervous, sweaty probably, with adrenaline pumping and time passing by in split seconds, but the least thing I'd be thinking about would be where Sheila might have directed the bullets.

I'm not sure whether the twins were killed first or last.  If first, Bamber might have thought it was so easy, just like dispatching two small animals, that the same repeated on his dozing parents would be a cinch.  If last, then he probably went for overkill to ensure the mistakes made with his parents weren't repeated.

[APRIL]

I'm just trying to picture myself in that master bedroom in the dead of night ready to shoot my sleeping parents (God forbid), armed with a rifle loaded with only ten or eleven bullets and being extremely careful not to waste any.  My first priority would have been to try to ensure that I didn't wake them beforehand, for example by not alarming Crispy, so that their execution would be as swift as possible.  But even the most well thought out plans go awry, and if I disturbed them so that they began to move, I'd probably fire off as many bullets as I could without too much thought about placement to prevent them getting out of bed and resisting, especially so in the case of Nevill.  I'd be nervous, sweaty probably, with adrenaline pumping and time passing by in split seconds, but the least thing I'd be thinking about would be where Sheila might have directed the bullets.

I'm not sure whether the twins were killed first or last.  If first, Bamber might have thought it was so easy, just like dispatching two small animals, that the same repeated on his dozing parents would be a cinch.  If last, then he probably went for overkill to ensure the mistakes made with his parents weren't repeated.

I think you'd probably fail miserably in your task, Myster. More likely, you wouldn't have been doing it in the first place as it's very clear just how abhorrent to you is the thought of dispatching your parents. I can't imagine Jeremy felt the same reticence. I think it would have been more about getting in, getting the job done as quickly as possible and getting out.

[Caroline]

Yes I said in an earlier post imo all those in JB's circle were coerced.  We can see from JB's police interviews, undertaken with a solicitor present, that DS Jones was happy to mislead ie telling JB SC was murdered and she could not have shot herself twice.  Imo he relayed these comments to JB's circle and the fact most, if not all, used recreational drugs was used as additional leverage to get them to cooperate.

I'll ask again - how were they coerced? What could they have on LR or MW? And what was to stop them mentioning they had been coerced when giving evidence? It seems a bit of a cop out to dismiss the testimony of anyone who accused Bamber of murder as being coerced. I can see an argument for Julie - but not the others.

[Samson]

I don't say that !... far too risky, especially as he'd never shot any human being before.  I just think things went banana-shaped because he disturbed his parents first and so they became moving targets before he had a chance to eliminate them with headshots, and maybe he also overestimated the rifle's power which required more bullets than the ten or eleven he thought were needed.

I also believe David Bain was guilty, because there was so much evidence stacked up against him, i.e. his misleading emergency call and subsequent faulty memory when interviewed of whose bodies he'd actually seen; the fact that he wouldn't let police in when they arrived; the trigger lock key whose location only he knew about; his little brother's bloodstain on the crotch of his shorts; the lens found in Stephen's bedroom and the distorted spectacle frame belonging to his mother (which he wore because his own were broken) with one lens missing found on a chair in his own bedroom; his machine-washing of bloodstained clothing, jersey, etc. in an attempt to destroy evidence; the date of when he had his arm tattoo which he lied about. There may be more which I can't remember offhand.

Of course you believe David Bain was guilty, there is a one to one correspondence involved, all believe (both guilty) or (both innocent).
Beliefs of course are simply misapplied knowledge, neither of the 23 year olds could plan for a successful crime or expect a fast path to the money.
In fact middle class 23 year olds don't think that way.
Did you?
By the way Holly has an expensive hard copy of a book "Trial by Ambush" on the David Bain case.
Should she choose to, she will dissect your beliefs like a pinned frog.

[Caroline]

Of course you believe David Bain was guilty, there is a one to one correspondence involved, all believe (both guilty) or (both innocent).
Beliefs of course are simply misapplied knowledge, neither of the 23 year olds could plan for a successful crime or expect a fast path to the money.
In fact middle class 23 year olds don't think that way.
Did you?
By the way Holly has an expensive hard copy of a book "Trial by Ambush" on the David Bain case.
Should she choose to, she will dissect your beliefs like a pinned frog.

I also have that book - so what? £28.99 from Amazon - not cheap but hardly bank braking.

MOST 23 years old's don't think that way - just those impatient ones with a psychopathic nature.

Misapplied knowledge you say? Well Bamber was 24 when he murdered his family - not 23!

[Samson]

I also have that book - so what? £28.99 from Amazon - not cheap but hardly bank braking.

MOST 23 years old's don't think that way - just those impatient ones with a psychopathic nature.

Misapplied knowledge you say? Well Bamber was 24 when he murdered his family - not 23!

Then you will be aware that:
Dr Alec Dempster, the pathologist described the entry wound to Robin Bain as being 4mm in diameter surrounded by a ring of soot up to 10 mm in diameter.
"This indicates to me that this is a contact wound where the muzzle of the gun has been held in direct contact with the skin of the deceased." The quote comprises a first notebook entry shortly after the crime. Later the bullet trajectory would prove to conform precisely with the most convenient path for self delivery,holding the rifle barrel with the right hand, gun stock on the floor, and left hand easily reaching the trigger. One shot fired, remember more than one and David Bain could hardly expect a suicide conclusion.

Then Justice Ian Binnie from Canada would make the obvious points in recommending compensation:

37. It strikes me as inherently implausible that David Bain, however incompetent, would kill
four people, then take time out to do a paper route in clothes smeared in blood (albeit covered
in part by a red sweat shirt), anxious to be seen by customers along the way, leaving the scene
of the massacre open to discovery by Robin before his return.**Robin was often up and about
the house soon after his alarm went off at 6.30 am.15**Occasionally Robin was up earlier.16**He
sometimes used a downstairs door to come in from the caravan.17**This would have led him
directly to the scene of the murders.**Had Robin done this on the morning of 20 June, he would
immediately have discovered the carnage while David was out, and called the Police before
David got home.***
38. Such a mindless “four before one after” plan attributed to David, a university student, is
just not credible in the absence of (i) any expert evidence that David suffered from an
abnormality of the mind or (ii) possessed sub‐normal intelligence.***"

Now I didn't bring Robin Bain up, but the question remains
Who shot Sheila Caffel?
Who shot Robin Bain?
As I point out, and see here, people believe both are suicide or neither.

[Myster]

Of course you believe David Bain was guilty, there is a one to one correspondence involved, all believe (both guilty) or (both innocent).
Beliefs of course are simply misapplied knowledge, neither of the 23 year olds could plan for a successful crime or expect a fast path to the money.
In fact middle class 23 year olds don't think that way.
Did you?
By the way Holly has an expensive hard copy of a book "Trial by Ambush" on the David Bain case.
Should she choose to, she will dissect your beliefs like a pinned frog.

Such a shame then, that you "believe" Bamber, Bain and Lundy to be innocent.

Good to see you getting bogged down with DNA gobbledygook on IA, defending a chancer who was quite willing to wipe his wife (and daughter) off the face of the earth for the sake of a hefty insurance payout to settle his debts, then spend the rest on a luxury house complete with half-car bar to indulge his taste for drunken debauchery.

Holly is probably making good use of that questionable tome as a door stop, and I've absolutely no intention of forking out such an extortionate amount for a paperback either, TYVM.

You're lucky to have such a pretty PM with Jacinda in Kiwiland, can't say the same about our own. I was even tempted to emigrate until I saw that NZ has got its fair share of homicidal crackpots... such as ************ who murdered Grace Millane, and whose identity your compatriots are sure to know by now.

[Samson]

Such a shame then, that you "believe" Bamber, Bain and Lundy to be innocent.

Good to see you getting bogged down with DNA gobbledygook on IA, defending a chancer who was quite willing to wipe his wife (and daughter) off the face of the earth for the sake of a hefty insurance payout to settle his debts, then spend the rest on a luxury house complete with half-car bar to indulge his taste for drunken debauchery.

Holly is probably making good use of that questionable tome as a door stop, and I've absolutely no intention of forking out such an extortionate amount for a paperback either, TYVM.

You're lucky to have such a pretty PM with Jacinda in Kiwiland, can't say the same about our own. I was even tempted to emigrate until I saw that NZ has got its fair share of homicidal crackpots... such as ************ who murdered Grace Millane, and whose identity your compatriots are sure to know by now.

Why not join David 1918 on IA and help him explain the Teresa Halbach murder? At last you two will agree on something and be wrong together. Always the same brick wall, the evidence does not fit the prosecution theory. Not in Bamber, Bain, Lundy or Avery.

It certainly looks like that New Zealand guy did kill Grace Millane, and let's not get carried away with the fiendishly thorough police work, they have CCTV everywhere, a shovel handle covered in the guy's dna and no doubt CCTV of him purchasing it. They might fluke this one and get it right. Note we tend to do singles, just a fledgling nation. No Yorkshire Rippers or Freddie Wests yet, but give us time of course.

[Myster]

Why not join David 1918 on IA and help him explain the Teresa Halbach murder? At last you two will agree on something and be wrong together. Always the same brick wall, the evidence does not fit the prosecution theory. Not in Bamber, Bain, Lundy or Avery.

It certainly looks like that New Zealand guy did kill Grace Millane, and let's not get carried away with the fiendishly thorough police work, they have CCTV everywhere, a shovel handle covered in the guy's dna and no doubt CCTV of him purchasing it. They might fluke this one and get it right. Note we tend to do singles, just a fledgling nation. No Yorkshire Rippers or Freddie Wests yet, but give us time of course.

Unusual for me to agree with young David (born 1918?, so he should have received his anniversary message from Liz by now) on Lundy, not sure how he stands on Bain, but I've enough to cope with here and in the real world at the moment than to spend endless hours in unknown territory elsewhere.

[Holly Goodhead]

He didn't dispute it. When told both shots would be fatal he said 'I can't comment'. As well as saying Nevill may have said 'She' on the phone 

Prior to that he said he thought Sheila killed herself.

Jeremy chose a good location for both shots into Sheila. It is agreed Sheila did not stand up after the first shot. She was 100% stunned & immobilised. If not unconcious she would be in extreme pain. Vanezis said she could also be incapacitated.

However Sheila was still breathing. When Jeremy later realised this he decided to fire the second shot, in exactly the same location. This shot killed her instantly.

He did dispute DS Jones' claims that SC did not shoot herself:

DS Jones:  Will you accept from me that she did not kill herself?

JB: Not really

DS Jones: I will tell you she has two shots fired into her and I understand that either or both would have been fatal, now what have you got to say

JB: I can't really comment can I

DS Jones: You must agree that if the first bullet wound was fatal she could not have shot another one into herself.  Is that right

JB:  No I don't believe that

And so it goes on.  Fact is JB did stand his ground over SC's ability to inflict the second gsw and he had every reason and right to do so given two eminent pathologists agreed SC was able to inflict the second gsw.