Who killed Bambi ?

[adam]

It would appear they both went to bed evidenced by indentations in pillows but we don't know whether or not either slept.

It appears they did get out of bed and went downstairs but the crucial aspect is when?  Yes they were found barefooted and in pyjamas and nightdress.

Yes to the first part but it's also possible NB went downstairs for whatever reason(s) and woke SC who might have thought of an intruder so went to wake NB only to find him out of his bed so assumed it was him and went downstairs.  Anything is possible!  We do not know who was sleeping only that NB's pillow contained an indentation and June was shot initially with her head on the pillow evidenced by the tracks of her wounds and bullets in the pillow.

Unlikely NB would have stayed in bed if he thought one or both of the 6 year old twins were downstairs alone.  If he thought it was an intruder all firearms were downstairs and unlikely he would keep outside shoes at the ready upstairs or even upstairs.  Slippers wouldn't really assist defending against intruders.

According to JB NB didn't say SC had gone crazy with it - he said "Sheilas gone crazy shes got the gun".  This could mean anything any of us wish to turn our imagination to!

Why would Nevill need outside shoes to go downstairs ? His normal shoes will be in his bedroom, together with slippers. So surprised he went downstairs bare footed & in pyjamas. Whether he thought it was Sheila, the twins or an intruder.

Nevill arming himself upstairs would be getting something he can use as a defensive/attacking weapon. A stool, bedside light, even a heavy shoe or boot. I have a bin in my bedroom & would take the hard top with me.

Whether Nevill woke Sheila or vice versa, both being bare footed & in pyjamas/nightdress helped the prosecution. They can say Jeremy prompted both to get out of bed a few seconds before killing them. Although with Nevill it was unexpected.

We can only imagine what Nevill's definition of 'crazy' was. He did not elaborate & just put the phone down.

[Holly Goodhead]

I don't know, I wasn't a fly on the wall at the time, just a pupa in my mother's eye, but they were probably debating the relative merits of Jack Daniel's compared to a mature Scottish Malt.

Chris Nevill was over from Australia,Samson's turf. wasn't he?... so he could have hired a camper van to tour the area and beyond, and two men would be more effective than one at subduing a burglar. How could they be sure any burglar would act alone? Or they had a hunch that Jeremy might make a return visit to remove evidence seeing as they suspected him of mischief in the first place.  The police had been in WHF for 3 days collecting soc evidence but overlooked the silencer which the relatives found apparently on 10th Aug.  Why not Friday? Coz AE's WS states Sat and she was meticulous in making notes on her cards. Police might have still been present then.  The police handed keys over to AE/PE at circa 5pm on Fri 9th and passed on info re the newly fitted alarm and code. or the family only had thoughts about being on site themselves after they realized how much valuable stuff was inside, According to AE's WS all valuables and firearms were either removed or hidden within WHF on Sat 10th Aug. but left it until the following day as they knew WHF was newly alarmed anyway.

[Holly Goodhead]

Why would Nevill need outside shoes to go downstairs ? His normal shoes will be in his bedroom, together with slippers. So surprised he went downstairs bare footed & in pyjamas. Whether he thought it was Sheila, the twins or an intruder.

He wouldn't need outside shoes to  go downstairs but you said if he thought it was an intruder he would have put footwear on.  The only footwear he had to hand as evidenced by soc images was slippers. Why would he bother with slippers if he thought an intruder was insides?  It's unlikely he kept his everyday footwear upstairs especially given WHF had a scullery and such like for outside wear.
 

Nevill arming himself upstairs would be getting something he can use as a defensive/attacking weapon. A stool, bedside light, even a heavy shoe or boot. I have a bin in my bedroom & would take the hard top with me.

Not much of a weapon from above.  Even Sir Alex Ferguson throwing a football boot only managed a small graze above the top of David Beckham's eye!  Why not rip off a wardrobe door for a plank of wood and/or take a light bulb and create a jagged edge like a broken bottle?!

Whether Nevill woke Sheila or vice versa, both being bare footed & in pyjamas/nightdress helped the prosecution. They can say Jeremy prompted both to get out of bed a few seconds before killing them. Although with Nevill it was unexpected.

Yes the prosecution was able to advance this theory at trial as the defence did not make any attempt to map out the physical evidence by way of blood stains or lack of, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks and pull it altogether into a seamless narrative.  There was no real expert evidence just Ed Lawson asking MF in a nonchalant manner whether anyone sustained any upstairs gsw's outside the main bedroom (apart from the twins) to which he replied no.  This is MF who told the court his relevant experience included a small amount of experience with an air rifle as a small boy.  Hardly the stuff of a forensic scientist qualified in ballistics.

We can only imagine what Nevill's definition of 'crazy' was. He did not elaborate & just put the phone down.

Yep we can only imagine!

[Holly Goodhead]

Most of us, at some point, have probably allowed our imaginations to go into overdrive, but to quote Steve_uk, it all -like much else- comes down to, what is considered to be, a balance of probabilities.

Yes but a balance of probabilities will be unfairly weighed if evidence is fabricated and testimony coerced.

Off to make a pulled ham hock and piccalilli sandwich.

[Caroline]

Yes but a balance of probabilities will be unfairly weighed if evidence is fabricated and testimony coerced.

Off to make a pulled ham hock and piccalilli sandwich.

Which is nothing more than a hunch.

[Caroline]

Definition of  'a'

a1
/ə,eɪ/Submit
determiner
determiner: a; determiner: an
1.
used when mentioning someone or something for the first time in a text or conversation.
"a man came out of the room"

Sheilas gone crazy shes got a gun - this imo would sound appropriate if WHF did not contain any guns

'A' is one of  many, 'the' is particular to one item - In your example above, 'the man came out of the room' indicates that it is a particular room (like the rifle was a particular weapon) - if he came out of A room - then there could be many rooms. It isn't specific THE GUN is specific.

[Holly Goodhead]

Which is nothing more than a hunch.

I assume there's a typo above and you meant lunch

[Holly Goodhead]

'A' is one of  many, 'the' is particular to one item - In your example above, 'the man came out of the room' indicates that it is a particular room (like the rifle was a particular weapon) - if he came out of A room - then there could be many rooms. It isn't specific THE GUN is specific.

But it doesn't say the 'the man came out of the room' it says 'a man came out of the room'.  And the 'a' is "used when mentioning someone or something for the first time in a text or conversation." 

A gun - "used when mentioning something for the first time.."

https://www.google.com/search?ei=FdYaXLCnHbWj1fAPkLe1gAI&q=meaning+of+a&oq=meaning+of+a&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0l10.3551.5252..6210...0.0..0.104.398.5j1......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j0i67j0i131.8Sst8nFm02g

The gun - "denoting one or more people or things already mentioned or assumed to be common knowledge".

https://www.google.com/search?q=meaning+of+the&oq=meaning+of+the&aqs=chrome.0.69i59l3j0l3.11268j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

[APRIL]

But it doesn't say the 'the man came out of the room' it says 'a man came out of the room'.  And the 'a' is "used when mentioning someone or something for the first time in a text or conversation." 

A gun - "used when mentioning something for the first time.."

https://www.google.com/search?ei=FdYaXLCnHbWj1fAPkLe1gAI&q=meaning+of+a&oq=meaning+of+a&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0l10.3551.5252..6210...0.0..0.104.398.5j1......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j0i67j0i131.8Sst8nFm02g

The gun - "denoting one or more people or things already mentioned or assumed to be common knowledge".

https://www.google.com/search?q=meaning+of+the&oq=meaning+of+the&aqs=chrome.0.69i59l3j0l3.11268j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

In the case of "a man came out of the room" I would assume it to be the room which was the focus of attention. The fact that a man came out of it secondary, being neither here nor there.

[Holly Goodhead]

In the case of "a man came out of the room" I would assume it to be the room which was the focus of attention. The fact that a man came out of it secondary, being neither here nor there.

I am afraid your assumption is wrong.  The link I provided above explains the meaning of the word 'a' so the emphasis in the example is on the 'a' not the 'the' as follows:

https://www.google.com/search?ei=FdYaXLCnHbWj1fAPkLe1gAI&q=meaning+of+a&oq=meaning+of+a&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0l10.3551.5252..6210...0.0..0.104.398.5j1......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j0i67j0i131.8Sst8nFm02g

The 'a' is "used when mentioning something or someone for the first time"  Example:

"A man came out of the room".  (The man is being mentioned for the first time).

If NB had not mentioned the gun previously:

'SC's gone crazy shes got a gun'

NB had obviously mentioned the gun/rifle previously since he and JB purchased together:

"SC's gone crazy shes got the gun"

[APRIL]

I am afraid your assumption is wrong.  The link I provided above explains the meaning of the word 'a' so the emphasis in the example is on the 'a' not the 'the' as follows:

https://www.google.com/search?ei=FdYaXLCnHbWj1fAPkLe1gAI&q=meaning+of+a&oq=meaning+of+a&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0l10.3551.5252..6210...0.0..0.104.398.5j1......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j0i67j0i131.8Sst8nFm02g

The 'a' is "used when mentioning something or someone for the first time"  Example:

"A man came out of the room".  (The man is being mentioned for the first time).

If NB had not mentioned the gun previously:

'SC's gone crazy shes got a gun'

NB had obviously mentioned the gun/rifle previously since he and JB purchased together:

"SC's gone crazy shes got the gun"

That's as maybe, but in the real world the vast majority of English speakers don't resort to academia before considering how the words they utter will be received.

"NB had OBVIOUSLY"?!!!!!!! Really? I'd have thought that had NB been given cause to mention THE gun -the one which Jeremy says he left out- it's quite possible that it would have been in the form of a reprimand and rather than leaving it there he'd have put it away....................I'd also have thought that Jeremy might have mentioned any conversation he'd had with his father regarding it?

[Caroline]

But it doesn't say the 'the man came out of the room' it says 'a man came out of the room'.  And the 'a' is "used when mentioning someone or something for the first time in a text or conversation." 

A gun - "used when mentioning something for the first time.."

https://www.google.com/search?ei=FdYaXLCnHbWj1fAPkLe1gAI&q=meaning+of+a&oq=meaning+of+a&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0l10.3551.5252..6210...0.0..0.104.398.5j1......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j0i67j0i131.8Sst8nFm02g

The gun - "denoting one or more people or things already mentioned or assumed to be common knowledge".

https://www.google.com/search?q=meaning+of+the&oq=meaning+of+the&aqs=chrome.0.69i59l3j0l3.11268j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Holly, this is silly - 'THE GUN' is specific no matter which way you twist it. They didn't have just ONE gun/weapon.

[Caroline]

I am afraid your assumption is wrong.  The link I provided above explains the meaning of the word 'a' so the emphasis in the example is on the 'a' not the 'the' as follows:

https://www.google.com/search?ei=FdYaXLCnHbWj1fAPkLe1gAI&q=meaning+of+a&oq=meaning+of+a&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0l10.3551.5252..6210...0.0..0.104.398.5j1......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j0i67j0i131.8Sst8nFm02g

The 'a' is "used when mentioning something or someone for the first time"  Example:

"A man came out of the room".  (The man is being mentioned for the first time).

If NB had not mentioned the gun previously:

'SC's gone crazy shes got a gun'

NB had obviously mentioned the gun/rifle previously since he and JB purchased together:

"SC's gone crazy shes got the gun"

Your argument is not making any sense Holly. Given that they had several weapons that Jeremy was familiar with, using the term 'the' in this instance wouldn't make it clear which gun he was talking about UNLESS Bamber knew which one he meant and as there is nothing to describe the weapon other than the word 'the' (and we only have Bambers word that the conversation ever happened), it's more likely that Jeremy slipped up - he used 'the' instead of 'a' because he KNEW which weapon was used, because he used it.

https://www.dailywritingtips.com/definitely-use-the-or-a/

A: you use this when you’re not necessarily referring to a specific thing (such as a nail, any nail). It’s called an indefinite article, because you’re not being definite or particular. There are many nails in this big world.

    She owns a cat.
    I work on a golf course.


The: you’re talking about a definite item, which is why the is called a definite article. Of course it only makes sense if both you and your listeners know which item you mean. If I commanded you, “Give me the money,” you would rightfully ask, “What money? I don’t owe you any money.”

    The house on that corner once belonged to Charles Dickens.
    The weather is very pleasant today.

[Holly Goodhead]

Your argument is not making any sense Holly. Given that they had several weapons that Jeremy was familiar with, using the term 'the' in this instance wouldn't make it clear which gun he was talking about UNLESS Bamber knew which one he meant and as there is nothing to describe the weapon other than the word 'the' (and we only have Bambers word that the conversation ever happened), it's more likely that Jeremy slipped up - he used 'the' instead of 'a' because he KNEW which weapon was used, because he used it.

https://www.dailywritingtips.com/definitely-use-the-or-a/

A: you use this when you’re not necessarily referring to a specific thing (such as a nail, any nail). It’s called an indefinite article, because you’re not being definite or particular. There are many nails in this big world.

    She owns a cat.
    I work on a golf course.


The: you’re talking about a definite item, which is why the is called a definite article. Of course it only makes sense if both you and your listeners know which item you mean. If I commanded you, “Give me the money,” you would rightfully ask, “What money? I don’t owe you any money.”

    The house on that corner once belonged to Charles Dickens.
    The weather is very pleasant today.

It's not my argument or even my interpretation its based on the rules of language and English grammar.

You are using a Michael from daily writing tips to back up your argument.  I am using the Cambridge and Oxford dictionaries:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/the

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/a

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/the

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/a

Both make it perfectly clear that the word 'a' is used when mentioning something or someone for the first time and the word 'the' is used when mentioning something or someone that has been referred to in the past. 

NB would not have said "Sheilas gone crazy shes got a gun" as the gun/rifle had clearly been referred to in the past since NB and JB purchased together and it may well have been the main gun used around the farm on a regular basis for dispatching vermin.  Whether JB is telling the truth or not the correct English language is "Sheilas gone crazy shes got the gun" as the gun had been referred to in the past. 

[APRIL]

It's not my argument or even my interpretation its based on the rules of language and English grammar.

You are using a Michael from daily writing tips to back up your argument.  I am using the Cambridge and Oxford dictionaries:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/the

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/a

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/the

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/a

Both make it perfectly clear that the word 'a' is used when mentioning something or someone for the first time and the word 'the' is used when mentioning something or someone that has been referred to in the past. 

NB would not have said "Sheilas gone crazy shes got a gun" as the gun/rifle had clearly been referred to in the past since NB and JB purchased together and it may well have been the main gun used around the farm on a regular basis for dispatching vermin.  Whether JB is telling the truth or not the correct English language is "Sheilas gone crazy shes got the gun" as the gun had been referred to in the past.

It's also likely that, had he been gun specific, he'd have referred to "that" gun.