What is 'science'

[Sunny]

You are wrong and have been dhown to be wrong several times on this thread.. Stockam talks about a, science based programme... Double blind trials.. Yes you are wrong

So Stockham talks about rigorous testing of cadaver dogs. I thought that would happen and I imagine Eddie was subjected to those too to prevent false positives.

[slartibartfast]

Why should they be worried?  The only people who should be worried are those whose future liberty and well being depends on the bark of a dog which may or may not be accurate.

Yes, I suppose explosive detection dogs are pretty vital.

[Mr Gray]

So Stockham talks about rigorous testing of cadaver dogs. I thought that would happen and I imagine Eddie was subjected to those too to prevent false positives.

Stockham talks about starting s science based training programme and double blind testing.... He doesn't say eddie was the subject of rigourous testing

[Vertigo Swirl]

Yes, I suppose explosive detection dogs are pretty vital.

And we all know how hit and miss they can be.

[Mr Gray]

Yes, I suppose explosive detection dogs are pretty vital.

They are if their alerts can be relied upon

[G-Unit]

You are wrong and have been dhown to be wrong several times on this thread.. Stockam talks about a, science based programme... Double blind trials.. Yes you are wrong

I have looked at this. Apparently America was lagging behind the UK in that there was no system of testing and certifying detection dogs. Dog handler evidence was often not admissible in court as a result. That's why Stockham, as part of SWGDOG was interested in developing training and testing methods which could be used to certify the dogs for court use.
https://swgdog.fiu.edu/about-us/explanation_of_best_practices.pdf

It was only in 2009 that the group issued best practice guidelines;

To provide recommended best practice guidelines for training, certification and documentation pertaining to human remains (cadaver) detection canines on land and /or water. The following guidelines pertain to land and water or a combination of both applications.

For successful certification, the canine team shall achieve a 90% confirmed alert
rate with no false alerts
https://swgdog.fiu.edu/approved-guidelines/sc8_human_remains.pdf

I imagine Grime and Morse found Stockham's tests a walk in the park because Grime had been tested and certified in the UK as a matter of course. The UK were ahead of the US in this area, as all their dogs were police dogs and were trained, tested and certified in accordance with ACPO guidelines. The US tended to use civilian teams who needed bringing up to standard.

[Mr Gray]

I have looked at this. Apparently America was lagging behind the UK in that there was no system of testing and certifying detection dogs. Dog handler evidence was often not admissible in court as a result. That's why Stockham, as part of SWGDOG was interested in developing training and testing methods which could be used to certify the dogs for court use.
https://swgdog.fiu.edu/about-us/explanation_of_best_practices.pdf

It was only in 2009 that the group issued best practice guidelines;

To provide recommended best practice guidelines for training, certification and documentation pertaining to human remains (cadaver) detection canines on land and /or water. The following guidelines pertain to land and water or a combination of both applications.

For successful certification, the canine team shall achieve a 90% confirmed alert
rate with no false alerts
https://swgdog.fiu.edu/approved-guidelines/sc8_human_remains.pdf

I imagine Grime and Morse found Stockham's tests a walk in the park because Grime had been tested and certified in the UK as a matter of course. The UK were ahead of the US in this area, as all their dogs were police dogs and were trained, tested and certified in accordance with ACPO guidelines. The US tended to use civilian teams who needed bringing up to standard.

Acpo guidelines were anectdotal as we have discussed before.. Pretty well all your post is opinion.... The alerts have not been accepted in an English court...
Do you have any cites for what you are claiming... No you dont

[G-Unit]

Acpo guidelines were anectdotal as we have discussed before.. Pretty well all your post is opinion.... The alerts have not been accepted in an English court...
Do you have any cites for what you are claiming... No you dont

Grime and his dogs were complying with  Stockham's requirements before Stockham and his colleagues issued their guidelines (2009) let alone had them implemented.

'Both dogs and I are licensed as two separate working teams. We are independently tested and licensed annually, normally at six monthly intervals as a 'rolling'programme to ensure best practice is maintained.......

Training records are maintained and are available if required.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

The cites I provided make it clear that the Americans were playing catch-up. The UK were keeping training records and licencing their dogs before the Americans were.

[Mr Gray]

Grime and his dogs were complying with  Stockham's requirements before Stockham and his colleagues issued their guidelines (2009) let alone had them implemented.

'Both dogs and I are licensed as two separate working teams. We are independently tested and licensed annually, normally at six monthly intervals as a 'rolling'programme to ensure best practice is maintained.......

Training records are maintained and are available if required.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

The cites I provided make it clear that the Americans were playing catch-up. The UK were keeping training records and licencing their dogs before the Americans were.

No they don't... What training records does grime have.... Remember it was, all anectodal

Stockham wanted to set up a proper scientific set up wth double blind.. That was far ahead of what grime had done

[G-Unit]

No they don't... What training records does grime have.... Remember it was, all anectodal

Stockham wanted to set up a proper scientific set up wth double blind.. That was far ahead of what grime had done

I think it's ridiculous to question whether Grime had training records. Why on earth would her offer to provide something he didn't have?

I've no idea what you mean by anecdotal.

All British police dogs, irrespective of the discipline they are trained in, must be licensed to work operationally. To obtain the license they have to pass a test at the completion of their training, and then again every year until they retire, which is usually at about the age of 8. The standards required to become operational are laid down by the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) sub-committee on police dogs and are reviewed on a regular basis to ensure that training and licensing reflects the most appropriate methods and standards.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_dog

[Mr Gray]

I think it's ridiculous to question whether Grime had training records. Why on earth would her offer to provide something he didn't have?

I've no idea what you mean by anecdotal.

All British police dogs, irrespective of the discipline they are trained in, must be licensed to work operationally. To obtain the license they have to pass a test at the completion of their training, and then again every year until they retire, which is usually at about the age of 8. The standards required to become operational are laid down by the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) sub-committee on police dogs and are reviewed on a regular basis to ensure that training and licensing reflects the most appropriate methods and standards.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_dog

This is what I mean by anecdotal

Licensing is derived from anecdotal cases and is scenario based conducted
over a period of a week, twice annually, it is conducted utilising independent
A.C.P.O. authorised assessors. Continuation training is conducted on a dialy
basis and includes simple scent discrimination testing to large scale scenario
based exercises.


It's all been discussed  before... The bottom line is no evidential reliability

[G-Unit]

The problem with double blind tests involving handlers and dogs is that the handlers can think. They know that they are being tested and will assume that the tests are aimed at discovering whether they and their dogs ate satisfactory. That's enough to cause tension and anxiety in the handlers before the test begins.

Dogs are very good at picking up on human feelings, so we now have tension in both handler and dog.

Simply by withholding information about what is going on, the test has created a situation of uncertainty which wouldn't normally exist.

[Mr Gray]

The problem with double blind tests involving handlers and dogs is that the handlers can think. They know that they are being tested and will assume that the tests are aimed at discovering whether they and their dogs ate satisfactory. That's enough to cause tension and anxiety in the handlers before the test begins.

Dogs are very good at picking up on human feelings, so we now have tension in both handler and dog.

Simply by withholding information about what is going on, the test has created a situation of uncertainty which wouldn't normally exist.

So the dogs cannot be properly tested... End of... So the alerts, are not supported by evidence... Because the snowflake handlers get nervous.. Lol

[G-Unit]

This is what I mean by anecdotal

Licensing is derived from anecdotal cases and is scenario based conducted
over a period of a week, twice annually, it is conducted utilising independent
A.C.P.O. authorised assessors. Continuation training is conducted on a dialy
basis and includes simple scent discrimination testing to large scale scenario
based exercises.


It's all been discussed  before... The bottom line is no evidential reliability

All it means is that the handler's case reports were taken into account in addition to the results of the tests set by the assessor over the course of a week.

In my opinion these teams were adequately monitored and tested. When my husband was a serving soldier his fitness was tested annually over half a day. 

[G-Unit]

So the dogs cannot be properly tested... End of... So the alerts, are not supported by evidence... Because the snowflake handlers get nervous.. Lol

OK. I'm retiring from this discussion now because I've made the points I wanted to make which are;

Saying 'scientific' isn't meaningful because there are different kinds of science.
'Scientific method' also varies depending which science is being looked at.
Statistical studies can't reveal causes, they can only find associations.