Jeremy Bamber - Lead Detective Sgt Stan Jones has his say

[Outlook]

Got it.  Mr Bamber was moved because his body obstructed the back door.  The shooter had to go into the rear office to replace the silencer in the gun cupboard so Mr Bamber had to be moved.  The door was relocked and then the shooter left via the window to preserve the "Locked Room Scenario" which is critical to the suicide concept.

(Incidently the alternative theory "elsewhere" is that a policeman later found the silencer in the bedroom and "not realizing its importance" replaced it in the gun cupboard and failed to say anything.

 8-)(--)

Sorry I know some of this is speculation and we should not do this.

[John]

I also found a comment in Dr Vanezis' original Report (page 5 at bottom) stating that hypostasis or livor mortis was consistent with the position in which he was found at the scene.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=199.0

The Report also details the entry wounds being on the right side of the head.

The bruising to both side of Nevill's head is huge, that poor man was beaten to a pulp,  something Sheila certainly wasn't capable of.

[Myster]

If you have a look at Dr Vanezis' Report dated 26 November 1985 at page 1.  PV/2 is a flattened bullet recovered from Nevill's left arm.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=204.0

I think PV/2 was the bullet that fractured the left humerus (comminuted fracture of the upper third of it).

This was recovered from the soft tissue near the fracture site.

[Outlook]

I also found a comment in Dr Vanezis' original Report (page 5 at bottom) stating that hypostasis or livor mortis was consistent with the position in which he was found at the scene.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=199.0

Yes, by movement I would put it "soon" within minutes of death before Hypostasis or Livor sets in.  That is normally well before rigor but within the first two hours or so.  I think what it does rule out is that the TFU did not affect the body position which is a common claim elsewhere.

You are also right in that some shots where fired from the right hand side with the bullets recovered from the lefthand side of the head.

[Myster]

I do not know either.  It is just because earlier we discussed that Mr Bamber was found in a really unlikely and unstable pose.  This has also been the subject of debate "elsewhere."  I think the key point is that although the bullets were recovered from the left side of the head and neck mercifully we don't really know where the entry wounds were.

What is strange to me is that all of Mr Bambers' wounds are left side but that is the side that is protected facing the AGA and back door.

There were four wounds on the left side (2 to the left jaw, 1 to the left shoulder region, 1 grazing the arm above the left elbow)

And four wounds on the right side (2 to the top of the head, right of midline and 2 to the right side of the head just above the ear).

There is a drawing showing the position of all eight wounds, but I don't think it's in the library.

[Outlook]

Yes you are right I agree.  Several shots fired from the right but recovered from the left side.

I still think he was moved though to allow the silencer to be replaced in the gun cupboard.

[Myster]

I do not know either.  It is just because earlier we discussed that Mr Bamber was found in a really unlikely and unstable pose.  This has also been the subject of debate "elsewhere."  I think the key point is that although the bullets were recovered from the left side of the head and neck mercifully we don't really know where the entry wounds were.

What is strange to me is that all of Mr Bambers' wounds are left side but that is the side that is protected facing the AGA and back door.

There were four wounds on the left side (2 to the left jaw, 1 to the left shoulder region, 1 grazing the arm above the left elbow)

And four wounds on the right side (2 to the top of the head, right of midline and 2 to the right side of the head just above the ear).

There is a drawing showing the position of all eight wounds, but I don't think it's in the library.

This is it but only a poor quality one i'm afraid...,

[puglove]

I do not know either.  It is just because earlier we discussed that Mr Bamber was found in a really unlikely and unstable pose.  This has also been the subject of debate "elsewhere."  I think the key point is that although the bullets were recovered from the left side of the head and neck mercifully we don't really know where the entry wounds were.

What is strange to me is that all of Mr Bambers' wounds are left side but that is the side that is protected facing the AGA and back door.

I'm sorry to keep doing this (it's the expirated blood crusade all over again) but if Ralph's body wasn't already stiff when perched on a thin strut of that chair, what was to stop him collapsing onto the floor? His neck and shoulders would have given way, his bent legs also would have given way under his weight. A dying or newly-dead body is heavy and floppy. It's not going to support itself by it's head. IMO he's in a sitting position because that's how he died, sitting in a chair, with his head flopped forward. And I think that is what was viewed from the window. And his severe head wounds would have started to bleed when his body was moved, hence the cushions and clothing around the scuttle. A good point of reference would be the Rettendon murders - those bodies bled out at post-mortem, many hours after death.

[puglove]

I do not know either.  It is just because earlier we discussed that Mr Bamber was found in a really unlikely and unstable pose.  This has also been the subject of debate "elsewhere."  I think the key point is that although the bullets were recovered from the left side of the head and neck mercifully we don't really know where the entry wounds were.

What is strange to me is that all of Mr Bambers' wounds are left side but that is the side that is protected facing the AGA and back door.

I'm sorry to keep doing this (it's the expirated blood crusade all over again) but if Ralph's body wasn't already stiff when perched on a thin strut of that chair, what was to stop him collapsing onto the floor? His neck and shoulders would have given way, his bent legs also would have given way under his weight. A dying or newly-dead body is heavy and floppy. It's not going to support itself by it's head. IMO he's in a sitting position because that's how he died, sitting in a chair, with his head flopped forward. And I think that is what was viewed from the window. And his severe head wounds would have started to bleed when his body was moved, hence the cushions and clothing around the scuttle. A good point of reference would be the Rettendon murders - those bodies bled out at post-mortem, many hours after death.

We can't see the front of the pyjama jacket. It might be soaked with blood, then Ralph's heart stopped beating, so the blood didn't reach the floor where he was originally sitting. One thing is for certain, as Outlook has pointed out - it would take someone much stronger than Sheila (and I'm the same height and weight as Sheila, with muscles like flipping Popeye from mucking out and lifting bales, and I couldn't do it) to man-handle Ralph's body into his final position. He was a big man, and lifting him and positioning that chair, putting it under him, placing his head, would be a mammoth task. I get the hyperstasis thing, but that could be wrong. Where would that be, anyway? Under his legs and bottom? The same if he died sitting in a chair?

[puglove]

I could venture onto the blue forum, and have a quick scrap before I'm banned, yet again, but I can't be arsed. Mike promises so much, but delivers so little, the Calendar Girls giggle and flirt with Steve, Roch must wonder how his forum has turned into mumsnet, and the one remaining true supporter, Jackie, must despair. Time's up. It will be years before his case is considered again. Because, at the end of the day, it's so obvious that Sheila didn't do it. AND...no proof of a phone call.

[Outlook]

I could venture onto the blue forum, and have a quick scrap before I'm banned, yet again, but I can't be ar..d. Mike promises so much, but delivers so little, the Calendar Girls giggle and flirt with Steve, Roch must wonder how his forum has turned into mumsnet, and the one remaining true supporter, Jackie, must despair. Time's up. It will be years before his case is considered again. Because, at the end of the day, it's so obvious that Sheila didn't do it. AND...no proof of a phone call.

I would not bother it is Fantasy Island there.  1,000 pieces of evidence that JB is innocent and all of them going nowhere.  You would think even the most die-hard JB supporter would have realized by now that it is all make-believe.

I am about Sheila's size and I tried to move one of my friends who fainted and she is less than ten stone and I could not do it.  A badly wounded or dead man twice my size, no chance.  Unconscious or dead people are notoriously uncooperative.

Thanks for the wound diagram.  That clears a lot up.  It was just with Dr Vanezis continually referring to recovering bullets from the left side.  I see how this happened now.

[John]

Great work everyone, I have learned so much even now. I think we must forget much of what we learn as we go along as there is so much to take in.

Are we all singing from the same song sheet then as relates to the bullet wounds?

The way I see it is that bullet wounds 1 2 3 and 4 were targeted shots and probably the fatal ones as Nevill lay dying.  Wounds 5 6 7 and 8 would appear to be from the initial attack and are all over the place.

Nevill was fatally wounded more or less where he was found with the right side of his head being an easy target.

[John]

If you have a look at Dr Vanezis' Report dated 26 November 1985 at page 1.  PV/2 is a flattened bullet recovered from Nevill's left arm.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=204.0

I think PV/2 was the bullet that fractured the left humerus (comminuted fracture of the upper third of it).

This was recovered from the soft tissue near the fracture site.

I think I have got this now Myster.  There were in fact two bullet strikes on Nevill's left arm. 

The first being the one which hit the arm just below the shoulder and is referred to as PV/2. 

The second being the one which grazed his arm and was deflected into his chest cavity and fractured.  This bullet was not recovered although seen on x-ray. 

I take it then that it was this second bullet which made the gouge mark on Nevill's left arm?

[puglove]

I could venture onto the blue forum, and have a quick scrap before I'm banned, yet again, but I can't be ar..d. Mike promises so much, but delivers so little, the Calendar Girls giggle and flirt with Steve, Roch must wonder how his forum has turned into mumsnet, and the one remaining true supporter, Jackie, must despair. Time's up. It will be years before his case is considered again. Because, at the end of the day, it's so obvious that Sheila didn't do it. AND...no proof of a phone call.

I would not bother it is Fantasy Island there.  1,000 pieces of evidence that JB is innocent and all of them going nowhere.  You would think even the most die-hard JB supporter would have realized by now that it is all make-believe.

I am about Sheila's size and I tried to move one of my friends who fainted and she is less than ten stone and I could not do it.  A badly wounded or dead man twice my size, no chance.  Unconscious or dead people are notoriously uncooperative.

Thanks for the wound diagram.  That clears a lot up.  It was just with Dr Vanezis continually referring to recovering bullets from the left side.  I see how this happened now.

I always faint when I'm in a pub and pregnant, and although I'm little it takes at least 2 blokes to carry me out. The last time it happened, one of the blokes who kindly lifted me up took the opportunity to have a bit of a grimble at one of my boobs. Anyhoo. The point is, I'm 8 and a half stone, and it takes 2 grown men to pick me up. Sheila could not have lifted Ralph's body up, and if she'd tried, she would have been covered in blood.

[Myster]

I always faint when I'm in a pub and pregnant, and although I'm little it takes at least 2 blokes to carry me out. The last time it happened, one of the blokes who kindly lifted me up took the opportunity to have a bit of a grimble at one of my boobs. Anyhoo. The point is, I'm 8 and a half stone, and it takes 2 grown men to pick me up. Sheila could not have lifted Ralph's body up, and if she'd tried, she would have been covered in blood.

You never cease to make me laugh, Shona !!... even at this time of the morning, when I shouldn't be here.