Author Topic: Philosophical question  (Read 879 times)

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Online Eleanor

Re: Philosophical question
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2019, 09:43:19 AM »

How many times have we seen comments for and against how the McCanns must feel when as you say no one knows what it can feel like.Do you feel their opinions are worthless?

Commenting on whether or not the McCanns might prefer their child to be dead is a trifle more serious.

I did once consider how I might feel if my first born had disappeared.  I don't go there anymore.

Offline Brietta

Re: Philosophical question
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2019, 10:56:14 AM »
No-one knows for sure how the McCanns feel because they have limited themselves to describing their feelings rather than showing them.

Quite an extraordinary statement to make if you don't mind me saying so  ... how do you expect parents and siblings of the missing to conduct their passage through life ... sackcloth and ashes?

That wouldn't have done too much in the way of the tenacious single minded efforts made by the McCanns on Madeleine's behalf which resulted in reviews and renewed police investigations into what might have happened to her.
The remit of Operation Grange is to investigate ...  "(as if the abduction occurred in the UK)"

Online G-Unit

Re: Philosophical question
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2019, 11:18:21 AM »
Quite an extraordinary statement to make if you don't mind me saying so  ... how do you expect parents and siblings of the missing to conduct their passage through life ... sackcloth and ashes?

That wouldn't have done too much in the way of the tenacious single minded efforts made by the McCanns on Madeleine's behalf which resulted in reviews and renewed police investigations into what might have happened to her.

It's their iron self control that I found extraordinary. Their ability to describe what happened that night, to hold up pyjamas the same as those last seen on their daughter, to speak her name; all without showing emotion. That's amazing in my opinion.
Accept nothing
Believe no-one
Confirm everything

Offline jassi

Re: Philosophical question
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2019, 11:21:51 AM »
Commenting on whether or not the McCanns might prefer their child to be dead is a trifle more serious.

I did once consider how I might feel if my first born had disappeared.  I don't go there anymore.

That wasn't quite the question, which was between having a body and never knowing anything about her fate, not between being dead or alive.

Is it better to go through the rest of your life never knowing what became of her or having some degree of closure?
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -   11 years and still no solution.

Online Eleanor

Re: Philosophical question
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2019, 11:32:26 AM »
That wasn't quite the question, which was between having a body and never knowing anything about her fate, not between being dead or alive.

Is it better to go through the rest of your life never knowing what became of her or having some degree of closure?

If I can't think about my child being missing then I certainly can't think about that child being dead.

Offline Brietta

Re: Philosophical question
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2019, 11:34:44 AM »
It's their iron self control that I found extraordinary. Their ability to describe what happened that night, to hold up pyjamas the same as those last seen on their daughter, to speak her name; all without showing emotion. That's amazing in my opinion.

You think? Really????

I see them transforming from the broken unsupported couple publicising their missing daughter and getting more and more practised at as time goes by through necessity.

How strange you form opinions based without witnessing the steeling of purpose prior to the event or the tears shed when not on camera.  I see them doing a job in front of the cameras of publicising their daughter's disappearance.  They had to do it all on their own as the Portuguese police appeared not to take control of these situations and offer the type of support to families that British police do as a matter of course.

I do have to agree with you that what they have done is absolutely 'amazing' but unlike you, I have no difficulty in seeing the channelled emotions that lie beneath which empowered the job they have done for Madeleine.
The remit of Operation Grange is to investigate ...  "(as if the abduction occurred in the UK)"

Offline Brietta

Re: Philosophical question
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2019, 11:40:34 AM »
That wasn't quite the question, which was between having a body and never knowing anything about her fate, not between being dead or alive.

Is it better to go through the rest of your life never knowing what became of her or having some degree of closure?

Isn't it great for us to have the luxury of having a philosophical discussion on a subject the reality of which so many innocent people are forced to live with every day of their lives.
The remit of Operation Grange is to investigate ...  "(as if the abduction occurred in the UK)"

Offline jassi

Re: Philosophical question
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2019, 11:47:10 AM »
Isn't it great for us to have the luxury of having a philosophical discussion on a subject the reality of which so many innocent people are forced to live with every day of their lives.

Yeah, great isn't it  to have freedom of expression  ?{)(**
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -   11 years and still no solution.

Online Eleanor

Re: Philosophical question
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2019, 11:48:29 AM »
Yeah, great isn't it  to have freedom of expression  ?{)(**

To discuss the misery of other people.

Offline jassi

Re: Philosophical question
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2019, 11:50:51 AM »
To discuss the misery of other people.

Is that not what this forum does?
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -   11 years and still no solution.

Online G-Unit

Re: Philosophical question
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2019, 11:52:52 AM »
You think? Really????

I see them transforming from the broken unsupported couple publicising their missing daughter and getting more and more practised at as time goes by through necessity.

How strange you form opinions based without witnessing the steeling of purpose prior to the event or the tears shed when not on camera.  I see them doing a job in front of the cameras of publicising their daughter's disappearance.  They had to do it all on their own as the Portuguese police appeared not to take control of these situations and offer the type of support to families that British police do as a matter of course.

I do have to agree with you that what they have done is absolutely 'amazing' but unlike you, I have no difficulty in seeing the channelled emotions that lie beneath which empowered the job they have done for Madeleine.

I have seen people speaking years after a traumatic event who break down. It's not, in my opinion, something that can be controlled. Colin Sutton just said on TV that when watching 'Manhunt' he felt again the emotions he felt at the time. How were parents able to revisit their emotions but hide the effect? How were they able to speak their daughter's name and describe her without a tremour? In my opinion that's not something people can choose to do.
Accept nothing
Believe no-one
Confirm everything

Offline Faithlilly

Re: Philosophical question
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2019, 12:19:33 PM »
You think? Really????

I see them transforming from the broken unsupported couple publicising their missing daughter and getting more and more practised at as time goes by through necessity.

How strange you form opinions based without witnessing the steeling of purpose prior to the event or the tears shed when not on camera.  I see them doing a job in front of the cameras of publicising their daughter's disappearance.  They had to do it all on their own as the Portuguese police appeared not to take control of these situations and offer the type of support to families that British police do as a matter of course.

I do have to agree with you that what they have done is absolutely 'amazing' but unlike you, I have no difficulty in seeing the channelled emotions that lie beneath which empowered the job they have done for Madeleine.

You yourself didn’t witness the ‘steeling of purpose’ or ‘tears shed when not on camera’ so I’m afraid you are also basing your opinion on very large assumptions.
Moral Guilt
Detractors of the work of our British Police in bringing criminals to justice generally ignore the important distinction between moral proof and legal evidence of guilt. In not a few cases that are popularly classed with 'unsolved mysteries of crime,' the offender is known, but evidence is wanting. If, for example, in- a recent murder case of special notoriety and interest,* certain human remains had not been found in a cellar, a great crime would have been catalogued among `Police failures'; and yet, even without the evidence which sent the murderer to the gallows, the moral proof of his guilt would have been full and clear.
Robert Anderson

Offline Brietta

Re: Philosophical question
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2019, 12:23:33 PM »
I have seen people speaking years after a traumatic event who break down. It's not, in my opinion, something that can be controlled. Colin Sutton just said on TV that when watching 'Manhunt' he felt again the emotions he felt at the time. How were parents able to revisit their emotions but hide the effect? How were they able to speak their daughter's name and describe her without a tremour? In my opinion that's not something people can choose to do.

Just exactly as one does when one collapses into a 'praying Arab' position because the knees just don't support any more ... or the inarticulate noises and silent scream of kicking out at furniture in distress.

Sadly ... if the McCanns adopted the obvious signs of distress you detailed ... there would be very many individuals to the fore criticising them 'faking' it.  Please don't forget there was a huge thing in Portuguese media (as well as our own) analysing their body language ... do you think they were unaware of it?
Every tomdickandharry have had a go at them ... you try to be 'natural' in the face of that.
The remit of Operation Grange is to investigate ...  "(as if the abduction occurred in the UK)"

Offline Miss Taken Identity

Re: Philosophical question
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2019, 02:32:37 PM »
You yourself didn’t witness the ‘steeling of purpose’ or ‘tears shed when not on camera’ so I’m afraid you are also basing your opinion on very large assumptions.


Indeed!
There is also the question of why and when they were upset. they didn't seem to show this outpouring of grief to Mrs Fen when she asked what was wrong. This seemed to come about on the arrival of the police, and we have to consider that they did have time out from this out pouring of private grief to discuss what people would say about them...

It is also very telling that Kate, when telling her story to the media, failed to mention they left a door unlocked. it was all whooshing and kidnappers and broken shutters...

Kate even complained about her media presence by mentioning about not having big boobs! Oh the trauma they suffered!

I have lost the cite for that- G have you still got it?
'Never underestimate the power of stupid people'... George Carlin

Offline Miss Taken Identity

Re: Philosophical question
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2019, 02:36:37 PM »
I really don’t know what you are arguing against.  If you think Winnie Johnson went to her grave with closure regarding Keith’s death then sadly the facts show you are mistaken.

I don't pick fights. I debate- like most people my age.
I gave my opinion, and explanation about disclosure in the sense Jassi meant in the title.  If you have first hand knowledge of how Keiths mum really felt at the time of her death then please cite. Bearing in mind the question was not was she happy- it was about closure. Thank you.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 02:50:45 PM by Miss Taken Identity »
'Never underestimate the power of stupid people'... George Carlin