Author Topic: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.  (Read 4466 times)

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Offline Angelo222

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2019, 02:51:00 PM »



Actually I do live in the central belt of Scotland and although I personally have not been the victim of intolerance, I am aware that such intolerance exists.

Your continual deprecation of all things related to Catholicism is interesting but has nothing to do with the discussion of independence for Scotland or whether Scotland is indeed just a country but not a nation.

Are you denying the Catholic Church actively encouraged large families for political purposes?
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Online G-Unit

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2019, 04:56:50 PM »
According to you there is no Scottish nation, only a country!!
How many nations do you believe there are in the world apart from the Irish and the Kurds?

I have given a definition of a nation and explained why Scotland doesn't fit that defnition. Perhaps it would be quicker if you explained why you think Scotland is a nation.
Accept nothing
Believe no-one
Confirm everything

Offline Carana

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2019, 05:59:39 PM »
In a nutshell...

The Difference between the United Kingdom, Great Britain and England Explained

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNu8XDBSn10

Enjoy. Or have an aspirin. ;)

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2019, 06:04:18 PM »
No. I'm speaking of what makes a nation. Anyone born in the country of Scotland is Scottish but that doesn't make them part of a Scottish nation. Country and nation are not interchangeable terms.
This all sounds a bit racist to me.
"The answer is that no-one here believes the parents were directly involved in MM's disappearance" - G-Unit.

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #34 on: January 24, 2019, 06:05:25 PM »
According to you there is no Scottish nation, only a country!!
How many nations do you believe there are in the world apart from the Irish and the Kurds?
Only those that are ethnically pure by the sounds of it...
"The answer is that no-one here believes the parents were directly involved in MM's disappearance" - G-Unit.

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #35 on: January 24, 2019, 06:06:27 PM »
The Irish who came to work here were castigated by families back home for  'working for the nasty British' The pope wanted a foot hold so sent in the priests to make sure those catholics were kept under control. And just in case you missed it The catholic church deny womens rights and freedoms and sexual expression. In Ireland, condoms are looked upon as a bad thing and abortions are still illegal! whether you belive in abortions or not.

The oppression, rape, murder and abuse on the Irish by the 'catholic church' is well documented. so don't blame me  for telling it like it is!  Some catholics hated being catholics and wanted to be free.
Whatís this got to do with the price of fish?
"The answer is that no-one here believes the parents were directly involved in MM's disappearance" - G-Unit.

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #36 on: January 24, 2019, 06:08:25 PM »
And you speak on their behalf.  OK.

 I must have missed that sound ecomomic policy which would bring great wealth and jobs to scotland as a result on Independance.  Perhaps you can provide it for me to have a read and perhaps I will change my mind...

And mibeeez you can also explain why young talents are leaving this country to move to England as they will pay less tax! 

The SNP wanted tax raising powers , what did they do? they stole from the low paid... yes indeed. they did. Many who were brought into a tax bracket they were not in before.. OH MY socialist policy at work.


It should be clear that those who lived through the history and were part of it have a clearer recall than those infeted history books.

My great aunt was tarred and feathered because she kissed a proddy! (Protestant) They got married -her family hated all of us even though their daughter was well loved and cared for by her inlaws- she left abject poverty to a wealthy family. And some members of my mothers side hated her because she was a catholic!- so spare me the sarcasm - you do not own the history of Scotland. My Family goes way way back to the Stewarts.
And Iím descended from Robert the Bruce.  Or is it Bruce Forsyth?  I forget.
"The answer is that no-one here believes the parents were directly involved in MM's disappearance" - G-Unit.

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #37 on: January 24, 2019, 06:11:18 PM »
"The answer is that no-one here believes the parents were directly involved in MM's disappearance" - G-Unit.

Offline Erngath

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #38 on: January 24, 2019, 06:30:38 PM »
I have given a definition of a nation and explained why Scotland doesn't fit that defnition. Perhaps it would be quicker if you explained why you think Scotland is a nation.


You would have to give me further examples of "nations" who  are "nations" and "nations " who are not "nations"
Deal with the failings of others as gently as with your own.

Offline Erngath

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2019, 06:39:08 PM »
This expert got it all wrong, tsk tsk
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Scottish-Nation-Modern-History/dp/0718193202


Indeed.
And to continue the claim to fame claims and although I am not related to Robert the Bruce (lol) or the Stewart family or any other Scottish Royal family, the author of this book was part of our student friendship group.
Not the same school or university but one of our crowd.
He is the most respected Scottish historian and his expertise  is regularly sought after.
Deal with the failings of others as gently as with your own.

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #40 on: January 24, 2019, 06:48:55 PM »

You would have to give me further examples of "nations" who  are "nations" and "nations " who are not "nations"
It sounds like racial purity has something to do with G-Unitís definition of nation.  So, not England because of all the immigrants over the years.  Somewhere like Japan or Papua New Guinea probably count as nations by her definition. 
"The answer is that no-one here believes the parents were directly involved in MM's disappearance" - G-Unit.

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #41 on: January 24, 2019, 07:10:49 PM »
Ernest Renan's What is a Nation? (1882) declares that "race is confused with nation and a sovereignty analogous to that of really existing peoples is attributed to ethnographic or, rather linguistic groups", and "[t]he truth is that there is no pure race and that to make politics depend upon ethnographic analysis is to surrender it to a chimera", echoing a sentiment of civic nationalism. He also claims that a nation does not form on the basis of dynasty, language, religion, geography, or shared interests. Rather, "[a] nation is a soul, a spiritual principle. Two things, which in truth are but one, constitute this soul or spiritual principle. One lies in the past, one in the present. One is the possession in common of a rich legacy of memories; the other is present-day consent, the desire to live together, the will to perpetuate the value of the heritage that one has received in an undivided form", emphasizing the democratic and historical aspects of what constitutes a nation, although, "[f]orgetting, I would even go so far as to say historical error, is a crucial factor in the creation of a nation". "A nation is therefore a large-scale solidarity", which Renan says is reaffirmed in a "daily plebiscite".[4]
I reckon Scotland can safely be called a nation judging from the above.
"The answer is that no-one here believes the parents were directly involved in MM's disappearance" - G-Unit.

Offline John

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #42 on: January 24, 2019, 08:01:44 PM »
According to the veritable wikipedia, a nation is a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory. That would appear to rule out many incomers to the UK automatically.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. John Lamberton exposes egregious malfeasance by public officials.
The truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #43 on: January 24, 2019, 08:12:59 PM »
According to the veritable wikipedia, a nation is a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory. That would appear to rule out many incomers to the UK automatically.
Does a nation cease to be a nation if it has a significant immigrant or immigrant descendants  population?
"The answer is that no-one here believes the parents were directly involved in MM's disappearance" - G-Unit.

Offline John

Re: Scottish history, nationhood and independence.
« Reply #44 on: January 24, 2019, 08:21:32 PM »
Does a nation cease to be a nation if it has a significant immigrant or immigrant descendants  population?

Depends on how significant I suppose. One could also ask how many generations must those people occupy a land before it becomes a nation.

Is the USA a nation by virtue of its European, Chinese or African hertitage?   Bearing in mind the fact that the Red Indian nations are all descended from the Mongoloid peoples of Asia.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 08:26:57 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. John Lamberton exposes egregious malfeasance by public officials.
The truth never changes with the passage of time.