Author Topic: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.  (Read 125934 times)

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Offline The General

Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
« Reply #915 on: April 09, 2019, 09:09:05 AM »
Are their recommendations law?
No, but it's an offence to leave your kids alone at risk. That's law.
Maybe they were aware of the law, but decided it didn't apply in Portugal.
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Offline Brietta

Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
« Reply #916 on: April 09, 2019, 10:04:38 AM »
No, but it's an offence to leave your kids alone at risk. That's law.
Maybe they were aware of the law, but decided it didn't apply in Portugal.

The Portuguese Attorney General referred to the situation regarding the law in Portugal when he decided that ...
Snip
It seems evident to us and because the files contain enough elements for such, that the crime of exposure or abandonment according to article 138 of the Penal Code can be eliminated from that range:
"1 - Whoever places another person's life in danger,
• a) By exposing her in a location where she is subject to a situation from which she, on her own, cannot defend herself against; or
• b) Abandoning her without defence, whenever the agent had the duty to guard her, to watch over her or to assist her;"
This legal type of crime is only fulfilled with intent, and this intent has to cover the creation of danger to the victim's life, as well as the absence of a capacity to defend herself, on the victim's behalf.
In the case of the files and facing the elements that were collected it is evident that none of the arguidos Gerald or Kate acted with intent.
The parents could not foresee that in the resort that they chose to spend a brief holiday, they could place the life of any of their children in danger, nor was that demanded from them: it was located in a peaceful area, where most of the residents are foreign citizens of the same nationality and without any known history of this type of criminality.
The parents didn't even represent the realisation of the fact, they trusted that everything would go well, as it had gone on the previous evenings, thus not equating, nor was it demanded from them, the possibility of the occurrence of an abduction of any of the children that were in their respective apartments.
Reinforcing what was said is also the fact that despite leaving their daughter alone with her siblings in the apartment during more or less dilated moments, it is certain that in any case they checked on them.
http://genreith.de/pj-archiving-2008.pdf


That was the Portuguese legal position in 2008 ... what has changed since then to prompt discussion in 2019 ... a podcast?? which I doubt sheds any light on what happened to Madeleine or adds anything to the present day investigations to find her.
The remit of Operation Grange is to investigate ...  "(as if the abduction occurred in the UK)"

Online Robittybob1

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Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
« Reply #917 on: April 09, 2019, 10:18:58 AM »
No, but it's an offence to leave your kids alone at risk. That's law.
Maybe they were aware of the law, but decided it didn't apply in Portugal.
Portuguese law would apply in Portugal.  But I did read that they could apply UK law to events in Portugal.  I'd have to find it again, for the exact wording.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 10:26:21 AM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline The General

Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
« Reply #918 on: April 09, 2019, 10:21:46 AM »
The Portuguese Attorney General referred to the situation regarding the law in Portugal when he decided that ...
Snip
It seems evident to us and because the files contain enough elements for such, that the crime of exposure or abandonment according to article 138 of the Penal Code can be eliminated from that range:
"1 - Whoever places another person's life in danger,
• a) By exposing her in a location where she is subject to a situation from which she, on her own, cannot defend herself against; or
• b) Abandoning her without defence, whenever the agent had the duty to guard her, to watch over her or to assist her;"
This legal type of crime is only fulfilled with intent, and this intent has to cover the creation of danger to the victim's life, as well as the absence of a capacity to defend herself, on the victim's behalf.
In the case of the files and facing the elements that were collected it is evident that none of the arguidos Gerald or Kate acted with intent.
The parents could not foresee that in the resort that they chose to spend a brief holiday, they could place the life of any of their children in danger, nor was that demanded from them: it was located in a peaceful area, where most of the residents are foreign citizens of the same nationality and without any known history of this type of criminality.
The parents didn't even represent the realisation of the fact, they trusted that everything would go well, as it had gone on the previous evenings, thus not equating, nor was it demanded from them, the possibility of the occurrence of an abduction of any of the children that were in their respective apartments.
Reinforcing what was said is also the fact that despite leaving their daughter alone with her siblings in the apartment during more or less dilated moments, it is certain that in any case they checked on them.
http://genreith.de/pj-archiving-2008.pdf


That was the Portuguese legal position in 2008 ... what has changed since then to prompt discussion in 2019 ... a podcast?? which I doubt sheds any light on what happened to Madeleine or adds anything to the present day investigations to find her.
What has changed? Nothing. It's a forum discussing her disappearance. It's regurgitating old ground, but that's what we do here most of the time.
Great. They weren't deemed 'negligent' at the time under Portuguese law, but it's still morally reprehensible and the act lead to her  (likely) demise.
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Online Robittybob1

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Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
« Reply #919 on: April 09, 2019, 10:24:41 AM »
What has changed? Nothing. It's a forum discussing her disappearance. It's regurgitating old ground, but that's what we do here most of the time.
Great. They weren't deemed 'negligent' at the time under Portuguese law, but it's still morally reprehensible and the act lead to her  (likely) demise.
In your opinion, and as we know opinion doesn't count unless you are on the jury.
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Offline Faithlilly

Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
« Reply #920 on: April 09, 2019, 10:25:13 AM »
The Portuguese Attorney General referred to the situation regarding the law in Portugal when he decided that ...
Snip
It seems evident to us and because the files contain enough elements for such, that the crime of exposure or abandonment according to article 138 of the Penal Code can be eliminated from that range:
"1 - Whoever places another person's life in danger,
• a) By exposing her in a location where she is subject to a situation from which she, on her own, cannot defend herself against; or
• b) Abandoning her without defence, whenever the agent had the duty to guard her, to watch over her or to assist her;"
This legal type of crime is only fulfilled with intent, and this intent has to cover the creation of danger to the victim's life, as well as the absence of a capacity to defend herself, on the victim's behalf.
In the case of the files and facing the elements that were collected it is evident that none of the arguidos Gerald or Kate acted with intent.
The parents could not foresee that in the resort that they chose to spend a brief holiday, they could place the life of any of their children in danger, nor was that demanded from them: it was located in a peaceful area, where most of the residents are foreign citizens of the same nationality and without any known history of this type of criminality.
The parents didn't even represent the realisation of the fact, they trusted that everything would go well, as it had gone on the previous evenings, thus not equating, nor was it demanded from them, the possibility of the occurrence of an abduction of any of the children that were in their respective apartments.
Reinforcing what was said is also the fact that despite leaving their daughter alone with her siblings in the apartment during more or less dilated moments, it is certain that in any case they checked on them.
http://genreith.de/pj-archiving-2008.pdf


That was the Portuguese legal position in 2008 ... what has changed since then to prompt discussion in 2019 ... a podcast?? which I doubt sheds any light on what happened to Madeleine or adds anything to the present day investigations to find her.

It’s odd that while supporters are consistently disparaging about Portuguese law yet they find the part concerning neglect acceptable. The truth is if the parents had acted in the same way in the UK they would have faced much harsher sanctions.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 10:49:05 AM by Faithlilly »
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Online Robittybob1

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Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
« Reply #921 on: April 09, 2019, 10:29:14 AM »
It’s odd that while supporters are consistently disparaging about Portuguese law they find the part concerning neglect acceptable. The truth is if the parents had acted in the same way in the UK they would have faced much harsher sanctions.
Have you got an example of parents doing a listening check on their kids and that being found illegal in the UK?
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Offline Brietta

Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
« Reply #922 on: April 09, 2019, 10:47:39 AM »
What has changed? Nothing. It's a forum discussing her disappearance. It's regurgitating old ground, but that's what we do here most of the time.
Great. They weren't deemed 'negligent' at the time under Portuguese law, but it's still morally reprehensible and the act lead to her  (likely) demise.

The difficulty with that is (apart from being your opinion, not fact) that everyone in authority has moved on in the reality of the situation.

That Madeleine's is an 'unsolved crime' doesn't end back in groundhog year 2007, it has progressed to wherever it is the police are at with it today. It was decided since that based on what had gone before there was more than enough evidence to justify the move into pastures new.

Quote
Metropolitan Police Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood has said told ITV News that moving from a review to an investigation in the Madeleine McCann case was "an important moment" for the missing girl.

He said drawing together the material obtained by Scotland Yard, Portuguese authorities and private investigators had increased their investigative leads from 195 to over 3,800.
https://www.itv.com/news/story/2013-07-04/madeleine-mccann-met-police-missing-inquiry/

I'm sure Scotland Yard and the Judicial police have long since progressed beyond your opinion of moral outrage into the real outrage which has led to their investigation of the clearly stated abduction suffered by Madeleine ... one can only wonder why it bothers you so much ~ after a lapse of 12 years and all which has gone on since ~ that you continue to post about and Saunokonoko pod about.

Parental presence is no guarantee of safety when one considers the British children abused in their beds under the same roof around the time of Madeleine's disappearance which didn't appear to be connected until Scotland Yard investigated them.
The remit of Operation Grange is to investigate ...  "(as if the abduction occurred in the UK)"

Offline Brietta

Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
« Reply #923 on: April 09, 2019, 10:48:59 AM »
Portuguese law would apply in Portugal.  But I did read that they could apply UK law to events in Portugal.  I'd have to find it again, for the exact wording.

Bennett tried it back in the day and hit a brick wall.
The remit of Operation Grange is to investigate ...  "(as if the abduction occurred in the UK)"

Offline G-Unit

Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
« Reply #924 on: April 09, 2019, 11:11:26 AM »
Bennett tried it back in the day and hit a brick wall.

We know that Social Services assessed the family when they returned to England. We know they didn't remove the twins. No-one knows if any other measures were taken to ensure their safety going forward.
Accept nothing
Believe no-one
Confirm everything

Offline G-Unit

Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
« Reply #925 on: April 09, 2019, 11:43:54 AM »
Joseph Moura investigated for 48 hours in the US. I have watched the programme they made at the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItbwWRSfcxw

It's before the files were released and isn't very informative. Althoough he went to the Ocean Club as a guest and frequented the Tapas Bar and spoke Portuguese he learned very little. His account does match what the Tapas staff told the PJ when first contacted however. There was no corroberation of the frequent checking the group claimed they carried out.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAPAS-EMPLOYEES.htm

The only other thing he discovered was that it was impossible to see the balcony doors from the restaurant.
Accept nothing
Believe no-one
Confirm everything

Offline Brietta

Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
« Reply #926 on: April 09, 2019, 11:53:06 AM »
We know that Social Services assessed the family when they returned to England. We know they didn't remove the twins. No-one knows if any other measures were taken to ensure their safety going forward.
Tony Bennett has waged a campaign since 2007 against the Kate and Gerry McCann

He first became interested in the case while watching it unfold on television in 2007.

He attempted to bring a private prosecution against the couple in November 2007 for child neglect – on the grounds the couple were eating dinner with friends when Madeleine was abducted – but the case was thrown out in a magistrates' court.
_________________________________________________

"If Madeleine was abducted I would accept what I have done is a wicked campaign of harassment. If I am wrong I am evil. But if I am right, I am a victim of simply having the desire to pursue the truth."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/9046508/Retired-lawyer-faces-jail-for-harassing-Kate-and-Gerry-McCann.html
The remit of Operation Grange is to investigate ...  "(as if the abduction occurred in the UK)"

Offline The General

Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
« Reply #927 on: April 09, 2019, 11:56:35 AM »
The difficulty with that is (apart from being your opinion, not fact) that everyone in authority has moved on in the reality of the situation.

'Guys, we've moved on now. No need to discuss further, yes, we understand your misgivings, but we've moved on'.
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Offline The General

Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
« Reply #928 on: April 09, 2019, 11:59:21 AM »
Tony Bennett has waged a campaign since 2007 against the Kate and Gerry McCann

He first became interested in the case while watching it unfold on television in 2007.

He attempted to bring a private prosecution against the couple in November 2007 for child neglect – on the grounds the couple were eating dinner with friends when Madeleine was abducted – but the case was thrown out in a magistrates' court.
_________________________________________________

"If Madeleine was abducted I would accept what I have done is a wicked campaign of harassment. If I am wrong I am evil. But if I am right, I am a victim of simply having the desire to pursue the truth."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/9046508/Retired-lawyer-faces-jail-for-harassing-Kate-and-Gerry-McCann.html
Tony Bennett is an absolute helmet, in my humble opinion.
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Offline Brietta

Re: Podcasts by Mark Saunokonoko of 9News.
« Reply #929 on: April 09, 2019, 12:23:20 PM »
Tony Bennett is an absolute helmet, in my humble opinion.

What he started, loadsa wannabes have continued ... in my opinion the latest being Saunokonoko and certainly not the last ... whose use of the podcast to regurgitate what was 'news' in 2007 differs only in being slightly more sophisticated in getting the message out than using leaflets
The remit of Operation Grange is to investigate ...  "(as if the abduction occurred in the UK)"