Author Topic: Did DS Jones Provide Anything To The Case Of Evidential Value?  (Read 224 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Holly Goodhead

According to Dr Vanezis the answer to the thread title is NO:

"We then had a candid discussion during which the only dissenter from the murder/suicide theory was D/Sgt Jones.  I gained the impression that he did not discount the murder/suicide theory but that he was uneasy with the reactions he was getting from Jeremy.

He mentioned a number of points which I recall tended to relate to Jeremy's general reactions which D/Sgt Jones did not think compatible with the manner in which he expected him to react.  Whilst respecting his views there was nothing impressive about what he said and certainly I cannot recall anything of evidential substance to the effect Sheila could not have done it". 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=206.0;attach=740
England beat Japan 3-0 to win SheBelieves Cup

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/47464374

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Did DS Jones Provide Anything To The Case Of Evidential Value?
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2019, 11:17:45 PM »
DS Jones made the following contributions to the 'Killing Mum and Dad' vid as follows:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcTvqLk0MWU

1.

@ 3.46

I went to the kitchen and saw Nevill Bamber.  His injuries were really shocking injuries.  Blood everywhere.  Before any shots were fired he put up a terrific struggle with the person responsible and during which he received a lot more injuries.  First shots upstairs didn't kill him but enough to injure him. The gun was used to hit him as well.
 He had marks on his back, round circular marks, which appears as if he'd been forced downstairs where he was basically finished off.


2.

@ 4.35

I went upstairs and in the room upsstairs I saw the two young lads 6 year old twins.  They'd both been shot in the head several times.  One had got his thumb in his mouth so to me it appeared they were both asleep and they were shot and obviously didn't feel anything.

3.

@ 5.25

I went upstairs to the master bedroom.  June Bamber was laying on the floor near a door.  She'd been shot in the bed and also on the floor.

4.

@ 7.25

I watched him and he appeared to be bending over as if he was trying to be sick.  I kept thinking is he trying to be sick or is it just an act.  It doesn't seem right.  He was hammered up.  It didn't look right.

5.

@ 9.16

Then allowed her to go into a separate room with Jeremy so they could talk to each other.  I closed the door behind them ----I heard I thought it was a laugh or a chuckle.  Then I thought no it must be a cough.  I thought can't be a laugh surely.  He's just lost all his family and he's laughing. 

6.

@ 26.43

I voiced my opinions and said I think Bambers involved.  At that stage I was told that unless any other evidence is fortcoming its still going to be treated as 4 murders and a suicide.  And to be quite honest with you for a month I went through hell because I was leading what you'd call a double life I suppose.  Knowing that he'd committed all these murders but trying to play ball with me job.  I had to just pray that something else would turn up very shortly to prove that I was right.

7.

@ 30.57

If she'd had to load that cartridge case twice with her long manicured fingernails they'd have broken there's no doubt about that whatsever.

8.

@ 32.00

She told us the whole story from beginning to end how he'd planned to kill his parents.  He would do the whole lot in one go.  He wanted the whole family to be there so he could get rid of all of them.  It was not point getting rid of a few because any left over they'd get part of the inheritance so he had to have the whole family.

9.

@ 36.45

I'd ask him a question and sometimes he'd had basically sing me at to go Y-E-S , N-O in melody tone which really wound me up.  Then he kept staring at me.  Most strange chap to talk to.  Another world.  I'll never forget he had a white aran jumper and he'd pull at the hairs or cotton bits and floss his teeth and twing it like a guitar and urm he was really well another person.  I've interviewed a lot of people but that was some intervoo.

10.

@ 38.28

There's no way in a million years could she shoot herself twice bearing in mind she's upstairs in the bedroom bring the silencer downstairs and put it back in the cupboard and then go upstairs to die.  There's no way in a million years that could happen.  Impossible

11.

@ 39.10

She was a fantastic witness.  Basically she stuck to her story and when you bear in mind it took hundreds of pages of statments from Julie over a period of time and she most probably got nearly all that in evidence.

Julie said why do you want to kill a family.  Jeremy said they've all got to go.  My dad is getting old and decrepid.  My mother is a religious freak.  Sheila is a paranoid schizophrenic and her twins are being brought up in no good way.  And be best that I get rid of the whole lot of them.  I'm doing everyone a favour.


12.

@ 40.00

He wanted his money from the estate now not later.  As Julie Mugford said why can't you wait in a few years time when your parents are old you'll get the farm you'll be laughing, you'll have whole business.  He basically said I can't wait that long.  I want it now.  They treat me like nothing.

As Dr Vanezis said nothing of evidential value.


« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 11:05:04 AM by Holly Goodhead »
England beat Japan 3-0 to win SheBelieves Cup

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/47464374

Offline Angelo222

Re: Did DS Jones Provide Anything To The Case Of Evidential Value?
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2019, 11:44:27 PM »
Thank you for that Holly.  DS Jones was right all along, what a star!
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline Myster

Re: Did DS Jones Provide Anything To The Case Of Evidential Value?
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2019, 05:34:13 AM »
Thank you for that Holly.  DS Jones was right all along, what a star!
@)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
To see a World in a Grain of Sand and a Heaven in a Cosy Bed with a Hot Water Bottle.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Did DS Jones Provide Anything To The Case Of Evidential Value?
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2019, 11:43:18 AM »
DS Jones made the following contributions to the 'Killing Mum and Dad' vid as follows:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcTvqLk0MWU

1.

@ 3.46

I went to the kitchen and saw Nevill Bamber.  His injuries were really shocking injuries.  Blood everywhere.  Before any shots were fired he put up a terrific struggle with the person responsible and during which he received a lot more injuries.  First shots upstairs didn't kill him but enough to injure him. The gun was used to hit him as well.  He had marks on his back, round circular marks, which appears as if he'd been forced downstairs where he was basically finished off.

2.

@ 4.35

I went upstairs and in the room upsstairs I saw the two young lads 6 year old twins.  They'd both been shot in the head several times.  One had got his thumb in his mouth so to me it appeared they were both asleep and they were shot and obviously didn't feel anything.

3.

@ 5.25

I went upstairs to the master bedroom.  June Bamber was laying on the floor near a door.  She'd been shot in the bed and also on the floor.

4.

@ 7.25

I watched him and he appeared to be bending over as if he was trying to be sick.  I kept thinking is he trying to be sick or is it just an act.  It doesn't seem right.  He was hammered up.  It didn't look right.

5.

@ 9.16

Then allowed her to go into a separate room with Jeremy so they could talk to each other.  I closed the door behind them ----I heard I thought it was a laugh or a chuckle.  Then I thought no it must be a cough.  I thought can't be a laugh surely.  He's just lost all his family and he's laughing. 

6.

@ 26.43

I voiced my opinions and said I think Bambers involved.  At that stage I was told that unless any other evidence is fortcoming its still going to be treated as 4 murders and a suicide.  And to be quite honest with you for a month I went through hell because I was leading what you'd call a double life I suppose.  Knowing that he'd committed all these murders but trying to play ball with me job.  I had to just pray that something else would turn up very shortly to prove that I was right.

7.

@ 30.57

If she'd had to load that cartridge case twice with her long manicured fingernails they'd have broken there's no doubt about that whatsever.

8.

@ 32.00

She told us the whole story from beginning to end how he'd planned to kill his parents.  He would do the whole lot in one go.  He wanted the whole family to be there so he could get rid of all of them.  It was not point getting rid of a few because any left over they'd get part of the inheritance so he had to have the whole family.

9.

@ 36.45

I'd ask him a question and sometimes he'd had basically sing me at to go Y-E-S , N-O in melody tone which really wound me up.  Then he kept staring at me.  Most strange chap to talk to.  Another world.  I'll never forget he had a white aran jumper and he'd pull at the hairs or cotton bits and floss his teeth and twing it like a guitar and urm he was really well another person.  I've interviewed a lot of people but that was some intervoo.

10.

@ 38.28

There's no way in a million years could she shoot herself twice bearing in mind she's upstairs in the bedroom bring the silencer downstairs and put it back in the cupboard and then go upstairs to die.  There's no way in a million years that could happen.  Impossible

11.

@ 39.10

She was a fantastic witness.  Basically she stuck to her story and when you bear in mind it took hundreds of pages of statments from Julie over a period of time and she most probably got nearly all that in evidence.

Julie said why do you want to kill a family.  Jeremy said they've all got to go.  My dad is getting old and decrepid.  My mother is a religious freak.  Sheila is a paranoid schizophrenic and her twins are being brought up in no good way.  And be best that I get rid of the whole lot of them.  I'm doing everyone a favour.


12.

@ 40.00

He wanted his money from the estate now not later.  As Julie Mugford said why can't you wait in a few years time when your parents are old you'll get the farm you'll be laughing, you'll have whole business.  He basically said I can't wait that long.  I want it now.  They treat me like nothing.

As Dr Vanezis said nothing of evidential value.

1 - 3 = DS Jones visual perception of soc.  Nothing of evidential value in terms of JB responsible or SC could not have been responsible.  Dr Vanezis describes NB as having put up a "spirited defence".  DS Jones describes a "terrific struggle".  DS Jones or Dr Vanezis?

4 & 5 = JB's responses are not aligning with how DS Jones think he should be reacting.  Dr Craig, police surgeon, said JB appeared to be in state of shock.   Dr Craig or DS Jones?

6.  DS Jones states he knew JB was responsible but had to hope that something would turn up.  Translation 'I thought JB was responsible.  I didn't have any evidence it was just my gut feeling and well I had to hope that something would turn up and of course it did...I was proved right'!

7.  DS Jones said had SC loaded the cartridge case twice (I assume he meant magazine) she would have broken her long manicured fingernails.  When Dr Vanezis was asked this question he said it fell outside his area of expertise and referred all concerned to ballistics ie Malcolm (small amount of experience with an air rifle as a small boy) Fletcher.  At court he said he broke his own fingernail when carrying out tests on the rifle.  Lol.  Try telling Farm Girl loading a magazine will damage fingernails/polish. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HT0XotxsFhA - just for Myster

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdAI9j_lDbc

8.  JM's testimony, or story as DS Jones refers to it as, contains nothing of evidential value.  It is simply her word against JB's.

9.  Obviously DS Jones and JB did not hit it off on a personal level.  If DS Jones was getting wound up by JB's behaviour then why not ask another officer to take over?  I thought officers were trained in such a way so as not to allow their emotions get the better of them? 

10.  Agree and that is why the case against JB falls or stands on the silencer evidence. 

11 and 12.  As 8 above. 
England beat Japan 3-0 to win SheBelieves Cup

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/47464374

Offline Real justice

Re: Did DS Jones Provide Anything To The Case Of Evidential Value?
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2019, 06:10:39 PM »
According to Dr Vanezis the answer to the thread title is NO:

"We then had a candid discussion during which the only dissenter from the murder/suicide theory was D/Sgt Jones.  I gained the impression that he did not discount the murder/suicide theory but that he was uneasy with the reactions he was getting from Jeremy.

He mentioned a number of points which I recall tended to relate to Jeremy's general reactions which D/Sgt Jones did not think compatible with the manner in which he expected him to react.  Whilst respecting his views there was nothing impressive about what he said and certainly I cannot recall anything of evidential substance to the effect Sheila could not have done it". 

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=206.0;attach=740
Do you mean in the first day or two that Jones didnít offer any evidential value or during the entire case Holly? I think Dr Vanezis was a little put out at first, he was fed information it was murder suicide and he did the autopsy with that in mind, then along comes Jones who had covered more ground than anyone else on the case in the first 24 hours, who was going to change the direction of the investigation. He not only changed the way the case went, he inadvertently  changed the way police looked and dealt with crime scenes after.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 06:16:12 PM by Real justice »

Offline John

Re: Did DS Jones Provide Anything To The Case Of Evidential Value?
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2019, 06:07:16 PM »

10.  Agree and that is why the case against JB falls or stands on the silencer evidence. 

I have never put any reliance on the silencer evidence Holly as there is far too much other circumstantial evidence available to establish Jeremy Bamber's guilt.  So I disagree that the case stands or falls in respect of the silencer.

DS Jones watched JB very closely from day one and sized him up extremely well imo.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2019, 06:09:27 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. John Lamberton exposes malfeasance by public officials.
Check out my website >   http://johnlamberton.webs.com/index.htm?no_redirect=true     The truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Caroline

Re: Did DS Jones Provide Anything To The Case Of Evidential Value?
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2019, 09:32:06 PM »
I have never put any reliance on the silencer evidence Holly as there is far too much other circumstantial evidence available to establish Jeremy Bamber's guilt.  So I disagree that the case stands or falls in respect of the silencer.

DS Jones watched JB very closely from day one and sized him up extremely well imo.

Agreed!

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Did DS Jones Provide Anything To The Case Of Evidential Value?
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2019, 12:32:52 PM »
I have never put any reliance on the silencer evidence Holly as there is far too much other circumstantial evidence available to establish Jeremy Bamber's guilt.  So I disagree that the case stands or falls in respect of the silencer.

DS Jones watched JB very closely from day one and sized him up extremely well imo.

Agreed!

But that's not how the CCRC and CoA view the case hence the 2002 referral by CCRC to CoA was based on the blood/silencer evidence.  The CoA refer to it as "important aspect of the prosecution case'

Grounds 14 and 15 Ė blood in the sound moderator 452. Grounds 14 and 15 each relate to different aspects of the evidence relating to the blood in the sound moderator. They are distinct matters but clearly need to be considered together because they relate to the same important aspect of the prosecution case. Ground 14 is an attack upon the blood testing evidence called at trial based upon fresh evidence which it is suggested would have cast doubt upon the prosecution evidence in this regard if it had been available to the jury. Ground 15 is the sole ground upon which this case was referred to the Court by the CCRC. It is based upon the testing of the sound moderator for DNA, a technique that was not available at trial.

http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html

If JB's case is to find itself once again at CoA it will be based on this important aspect of the prosecution case.   
England beat Japan 3-0 to win SheBelieves Cup

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/47464374

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Did DS Jones Provide Anything To The Case Of Evidential Value?
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2019, 01:07:02 PM »
Do you mean in the first day or two that Jones didnít offer any evidential value or during the entire case Holly? I think Dr Vanezis was a little put out at first, he was fed information it was murder suicide and he did the autopsy with that in mind, then along comes Jones who had covered more ground than anyone else on the case in the first 24 hours, who was going to change the direction of the investigation. He not only changed the way the case went, he inadvertently  changed the way police looked and dealt with crime scenes after.

Well I believe the 'Killing mum and dad' docu/drama' was first aired some considerable time post trial and based on DS Jones contribution I'm not hearing anything of evidential value other than his assertion about the silencer which I agree with.  In terms of most of the other points, especially those relating to JB's attitude and behaviour, it is subjective.
England beat Japan 3-0 to win SheBelieves Cup

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/47464374

Offline Caroline

Re: Did DS Jones Provide Anything To The Case Of Evidential Value?
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2019, 04:31:41 PM »
But that's not how the CCRC and CoA view the case hence the 2002 referral by CCRC to CoA was based on the blood/silencer evidence.  The CoA refer to it as "important aspect of the prosecution case'

Grounds 14 and 15 Ė blood in the sound moderator 452. Grounds 14 and 15 each relate to different aspects of the evidence relating to the blood in the sound moderator. They are distinct matters but clearly need to be considered together because they relate to the same important aspect of the prosecution case. Ground 14 is an attack upon the blood testing evidence called at trial based upon fresh evidence which it is suggested would have cast doubt upon the prosecution evidence in this regard if it had been available to the jury. Ground 15 is the sole ground upon which this case was referred to the Court by the CCRC. It is based upon the testing of the sound moderator for DNA, a technique that was not available at trial.

http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html

If JB's case is to find itself once again at CoA it will be based on this important aspect of the prosecution case.   

It is an important aspect but not the be all and end all.

Pretty difficult (or impossible) to prove/disprove anything in respect to the silencer now.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Did DS Jones Provide Anything To The Case Of Evidential Value?
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2019, 11:51:58 AM »
It is an important aspect but not the be all and end all.

It is the be all and end all as far as the CCRC/CoA are concerned.

Pretty difficult (or impossible) to prove/disprove anything in respect to the silencer now.

I wouldn't know I'm not a forensic scientist.
England beat Japan 3-0 to win SheBelieves Cup

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/47464374

Offline Myster

Re: Did DS Jones Provide Anything To The Case Of Evidential Value?
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2019, 12:59:51 PM »
Yes, but you are a Doctor..... in Moneyraker or Hippopotapussy or something, aren't you?
To see a World in a Grain of Sand and a Heaven in a Cosy Bed with a Hot Water Bottle.

Offline Caroline

Re: Did DS Jones Provide Anything To The Case Of Evidential Value?
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2019, 04:27:20 PM »
It is the be all and end all as far as the CCRC/CoA are concerned.

I wouldn't know I'm not a forensic scientist.

Then Bamber isn't ever getting out. You don't have to be a FS - there is nothing left to test on the 'original' silencer.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Did DS Jones Provide Anything To The Case Of Evidential Value?
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2019, 05:54:37 PM »
Yes, but you are a Doctor..... in Moneyraker or Hippopotapussy or something, aren't you?

Astrophysicist and undercover CIA agent  ?>)()< 8(>((
England beat Japan 3-0 to win SheBelieves Cup

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/47464374