At Last a Podcast from the Experts.

[Robittybob1]

I'm listening to Episode 184 again.

I must admit Jim Clemente is an expert in his field.  First 34 minutes nothing too controversial.

[Robittybob1]

Then gunits accusation should be removed... It's total mudslinging... I'm very familiar with the case... It's unfair to make baseless allegations

Her opinion.  You might be but could you both take the discussion to a new thread.

OK I invite you both to discuss Levi Bellfield as Laura Richards mentions his case  in Episode 187 , 39 minutes into the episode.

[Robittybob1]

I don't see that, John.

How can the suppositions of three individuals with absolutely no  working knowledge or experience of Madeleine's case have any relevance ... their ruminations carry no more weight than do ours.

They are discussing a police investigation in a historical context as if it were a 'cold case' which began and ended with the failure to determine what crime had been committed against Madeleine.

Which I think totally ignores the fact that whether jointly or severally Scotland Yard and the Judicial police are currently undertaking investigations into an abduction with Madeleine at the heart of it.

I have seen nothing emanating from current police sources suggesting any other line of enquiry ... as far as I am concerned the present 'woke and wandered' discussion is the brainchild of podcasters who have been driving the agenda for the past few months in the necessary lack of official news at a the current sensitive stage of a live investigation.

The police are probably quite happy to have the heat taken off them while they get on with the job in hand.

You appear to have misunderstood me.  These podcasters don't support the woke and wandered theory and that upset me.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10745.msg533116#msg533116

[Brietta]

You appear to have misunderstood me.  These podcasters don't support the woke and wandered theory and that upset me.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10745.msg533116#msg533116

I was responding to John's post, Rob  http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10745.msg533118#msg533118  not yours ;)

[Robittybob1]

What scenarios does Jim Gamble or anyone else imagine that would have lead to Madeleine waking and wandering from the apartment to a place where her body has NEVER been discovered? Never is a long time in the case of a missing child with no shoes on.

There are more problems with the woke and wandered theory than explaining the shutter, IMO. There is also no explanation of where she woke and wandered to that has lead to her body NEVER being discovered? Lack of a body is what lead Jim Clemente to discount woke and wandered. On that and the shutter, I agree.  The fact Jim Gamble claims to consider it, astonishes me for those obvious reasons. If his professional opinion is that the woke and wandered theory is a viable option, it has to raise serious questions about the quality of his professionalism IMO.

Well if any kid wakes up and goes wandering, it doesn't just die the next minute.  So what is the missing step?

They were talking about an accidental death out of the apartment.  As soon as a kid walks out of a house what scenarios could it die from.
1. Being stuck in the lift in block 5 is one scenario Misty raised, and I had noted all along no one ever said they looked in the lift let alone the lift shaft. 
2. Beyond that there is the possibility of being run over by a car, a drunk driver even.
3. Fiona Payne made the point of looking in roadworks excavations, and early on it was pointed out there was a problem with manhole covers on the streets.


4.  If there was someone planning to kidnap a child they would be very pleased if the child came to them. 
So if you thought of an intruder, it is possible for the child to be abducted without the need for the break in.

5.  Drowning in the pool was a possibility.
6.  Some unexplained sudden death as in choking or asthma attack.
7.  Tripping and banging one's head, or falling down steps.

And many more that I can't think of just now.  But I think you could see at every situation it is possible for someone to remove the dead or living child from the scene without informing  another person.

[slartibartfast]

So in each instance, what happened to the body that wandered out the apartment to allow it never to be located?

Well with all the people wandering around, the chances of discovery must have been significant.

[Vertigo Swirl]

Well with all the people wandering around, the chances of discovery must have been significant.

Whichever scenario you believe happened the same observation applies. 

[Wonderfulspam]

Whichever scenario you believe happened the same observation applies.

Mr Smith & wife believed they saw Gerry, & need we recount how the bin scenario would have made discovery of a body quite difficult initially & eventually nigh on impossible?

[Vertigo Swirl]

What observation? There has never been any body to observe. If she woke up and innocently wandered out the apartment as Jim Gamble's theory predicts, is it really logical to believe she disposed of her own body in a manner in which it has never been found?

Why don't you read my post in the context of the post I was replying to?  then all should become clear.

[Vertigo Swirl]

Mr Smith & wife believed they saw Gerry, & need we recount how the bin scenario would have made discovery of a body quite difficult initially & eventually nigh on impossible?

You seem to be agreeing with my statement, so...what's your point again?

[ShiningInLuz]

What observation? There has never been any body to observe. If she woke up and innocently wandered out the apartment as Jim Gamble's theory predicts, is it really logical to believe she disposed of her own body in a manner in which it has never been found?

There was a case in the UK where a man was able to 'dispose' of his own body in a manner which defeated extensive police searches.

There is a great deal of undeveloped, rough terrain in and around Luz.  I have only a thumbnail sketch of how well that was searched.

Purely accidental death and inability to find a body cannot be ruled out.

That's why I am interested in cases of cadaver decomposition.  It appears that nothing occurs in the decomposition process, in a woke and wandered scenario, to alert people that a cadaver is there.

[Mr Gray]

If Maddie woke and wandered... What did Eddie alert to in the apartment

[Vertigo Swirl]

If that's your reply to my question that's fair enough with me. But whether the same scenario applies or not doesn't explain the lack of a body in the woke and wandered theory, does it?
So you think Jim Gamble's woke and wandered theory is garbage?  I agree. The woke and wandered theory without a body is garbage, but it's not my garbage, it's Jim Gambles.

I don’t believe anyone is foolish enough to suggest that Madeleine disposed of her own body, that was the bit I was referring to as garbage.  It is technically possible that she woke and wandered and was taken outside of the apartment, though I think this is highly unlikely owing to the fact that the window and shutter were open.  And before you say it, there is no logic in opening a window and shutter in order to stage an abduction before you have even ascertained whether your child is wandering around the block somewhere, nor is there any logic in staging an abduction by opening shutters and window and closing them again before the police arrive.

[Mr Gray]

Where is her body if she woke and wandered? VS agrees with me that the idea that she disposed of her own body is garbage, so where is it?

I dont particularly see woke and wandered as likely....the point im making is woke and wandered rubbishes the cadaver alerts.....i think they are rubbish

[ShiningInLuz]

Don't you think with the level of Portuguese resources thrown at the search, the authorities would have found Madeline's body after all this time? I agree with VS, the idea that Madeleine could have disposed of herself as garbage.

The only level of Portuguese Portuguese police resources deployed in a woke and wandered scenario is in Mark Harrison's report.

I would not be confident that rules out accidental death + body not discovered, as in the UK case.