The timeline revisited

[Uncle Jr]

Not really, Kate claimed the crying incident was earlier in the week, it gave her cause to be more vigilant, so she sat with her back to the apartment before asking Fiona  'Is it better that if Madeleine wakes up she can get out & find us or, erm, locking it & finding that we're not there & the doors locked if she woke up'.

It might actually turn out to be the harbinger that the case rests on.
What better way for CB's accomplice to alert him to a pattern of crying in the apartment i.e. child / children being left alone on consecutive nights.
It could be that the infamous phone call was from someone in the Tapas bar keeping tabs on the group and telling him when the coast was clear.

[Vertigo Swirl]

First of all the children's bedroom was actually at the front of the apartment, judging by where the front door was situated. Secondly, there's no reason to assume a mobile child remained in that bedroom.

Relative to the patio doors the kids bedroom was at the back of the apartment.  Did Mrs Fenn say the crying was coming from all over the apartment, ie: that the crier was mobile?  Did The McCanns state that Madeleine was out of her bed when they came back that night?

[Vertigo Swirl]

Not really, Kate claimed the crying incident was earlier in the week, it gave her cause to be more vigilant, so she sat with her back to the apartment before asking Fiona  'Is it better that if Madeleine wakes up she can get out & find us or, erm, locking it & finding that we're not there & the doors locked if she woke up'.

I'm afraid that doesn't compute.  On the one hand you're saying she was concerned enough about the crying to do more frequent checks, but on the other you are implying that by sitting with her back to the apartment and leaving her child to come and find her if she was upset again that she couldn't give a shit whether she cried or not.  So - which is it, in your opinion? 

[Uncle Jr]

Relative to the patio doors the kids bedroom was at the back of the apartment.  Did Mrs Fenn say the crying was coming from all over the apartment, ie: that the crier was mobile?  Did The McCanns state that Madeleine was out of her bed when they came back that night?

If they weren't all sedated they would all be awake and crying, except the twins may not have been able to get out of the cot. From experience, if one kicks off they all kick off.

[Uncle Jr]

I'm afraid that doesn't compute.  On the one hand you're saying she was concerned enough about the crying to do more frequent checks, but on the other you are implying that by sitting with her back to the apartment and leaving her child to come and find her if she was upset again that she couldn't give a shit whether she cried or not.  So - which is it, in your opinion?

The more frequent checks may well have had more to do with the fact that the constant crying would give rise to external concern. Bottom line is, irrespective, she decided that going out was more important than staying in.

[Wonderfulspam]

I'm afraid that doesn't compute.  On the one hand you're saying she was concerned enough about the crying to do more frequent checks, but on the other you are implying that by sitting with her back to the apartment and leaving her child to come and find her if she was upset again that she couldn't give a shit whether she cried or not.  So - which is it, in your opinion?

She makes the contradiction here.

She references her concern for Maddie's welfare & leaving the doors unlocked, on the same night by tragic coincidence Maddie disappears, yet she had sat with her back to the apartment.

Maybe she asked Russell to swap chairs & he refused, but I haven't seen that claimed anywhere & sitting with your back to the unlocked apartment door behind which are the children you're concerned about doesn't make sense to me.

But I suppose, if she's weird enough to do something like that then maybe she wasn't checking the children more frequently upon increased concern for them.

[Vertigo Swirl]

She makes the contradiction here.

She references her concern for Maddie's welfare & leaving the doors unlocked, on the same night by tragic coincidence Maddie disappears, yet she had sat with her back to the apartment.

Maybe she asked Russell to swap chairs & he refused, but I haven't seen that claimed anywhere & sitting with your back to the unlocked apartment door behind which are the children you're concerned about doesn't make sense to me.

But I suppose, if she's weird enough to do something like that then maybe she wasn't checking the children more frequently upon increased concern for them.

Was Gerry sitting with his back to the apartment?  Presumably unless it was like the Last Supper someone would have to be sitting with their backs to the apartments - perhaps she drew the short straw.  In any case why would the entire group agree to up the frequency of their checks just because the McCann kids were screaming? 

[Vertigo Swirl]

If they weren't all sedated they would all be awake and crying, except the twins may not have been able to get out of the cot. From experience, if one kicks off they all kick off.

That's your experience, but not mine.  In my experience one can sleep blissfully while the other screams the place down.  That's the thing about personal experience - it doesn't tell us much about what actually happened.

[Uncle Jr]

That's your experience, but not mine.  In my experience one can sleep blissfully while the other screams the place down.  That's the thing about personal experience - it doesn't tell us much about what actually happened.

I suppose if they were in different room that could be the case. But are you seriously suggesting that Madeleine didn't go over to her siblings to wake them up? That's pretty considerate. Maybe she sobbed quietly to herself for daddy too, but not quietly enough evidently.

[Vertigo Swirl]

I suppose if they were in different room that could be the case. But are you seriously suggesting that Madeleine didn't go over to her siblings to wake them up? That's pretty considerate. Maybe she sobbed quietly to herself for daddy too, but not quietly enough evidently.

I'm sorry I don't get you.  Why would you naturally assume that Madeleine would get out of bed deliberately to wake up her siblings?  Is that a given in your view?  As I said in my experience a child can wake up and cry without waking the other child.  Not only cry but vomit right next to the sleeping child.  Oh, the joys of sharing a hotel room with the sprogs!

[Wonderfulspam]

It might actually turn out to be the harbinger that the case rests on.
What better way for CB's accomplice to alert him to a pattern of crying in the apartment i.e. child / children being left alone on consecutive nights.
It could be that the infamous phone call was from someone in the Tapas bar keeping tabs on the group and telling him when the coast was clear.

I don't think the phone they were trying to trace connected to the mast in Luz.

So this was someone outside of Luz calling Brueckner, at around 7:30, to tell him it was safe to strike within 30 minute slots, somewhere between the hours of 8:30 & whenever the McCanns finish dinner.

[Uncle Jr]

I'm sorry I don't get you.  Why would you naturally assume that Madeleine would get out of bed deliberately to wake up her siblings?  Is that a given in your view?  As I said in my experience a child can wake up and cry without waking the other child.  Not only cry but vomit right next to the sleeping child.  Oh, the joys of sharing a hotel room with the sprogs!

Her intention wouldn't have been to 'wake up to deliberately to wake up her siblings', and I never said that, you did, she would wake them up because she woke up and was probably scared and alone. Most likely the 2nd thing she would do after crying for her mum and dad.
As for your 2nd point, I'll bet you didn't just let your child run amok; you were there so you placated him/her, soothed him/her, whatever. So your assertion is invalid, as the parents weren't there to do that - not the same.

[Mr Gray]

Her intention wouldn't have been to 'wake up to deliberately to wake up her siblings', and I never said that, you did, she would wake them up because she woke up and was probably scared and alone. Most likely the 2nd thing she would do after crying for her mum and dad.
As for your 2nd point, I'll bet you didn't just let your child run amok; you were there so you placated him/her, soothed him/her, whatever. So your assertion is invalid, as the parents weren't there to do that - not the same.

I'm not sure what all this fascination is with Mrs, Fenn.. If it's true then it gives more opportunity for an abduction.

[Vertigo Swirl]

Her intention wouldn't have been to 'wake up to deliberately to wake up her siblings', and I never said that, you did, she would wake them up because she woke up and was probably scared and alone. Most likely the 2nd thing she would do after crying for her mum and dad.
As for your 2nd point, I'll bet you didn't just let your child run amok; you were there so you placated him/her, soothed him/her, whatever. So your assertion is invalid, as the parents weren't there to do that - not the same.

I'm getting bored with arguing with you.  I didn't say what you said I said, and you did say that Madeleine would deliberately wake up her siblings, indeed you repeated it above!  You have no idea what Madeleine would or would not have done, and basing it on your own experience of what your or my kid would or wouldn't do is neither here nor there.  Maybe she did, maybe she didn't, who knows, and why does it matter anyway?  My last word to you on the subject. 

[Uncle Jr]

I'm getting bored with arguing with you.  I didn't say what you said I said, and you did say that Madeleine would deliberately wake up her siblings, indeed you repeated it above!  You have no idea what Madeleine would or would not have done, and basing it on your own experience of what your or my kid would or wouldn't do is neither here nor there.  Maybe she did, maybe she didn't, who knows, and why does it matter anyway?  My last word to you on the subject.

Bottom line is that the parents weren't there, so of course Madeleine would wake her siblings up when she herself woke up, because she was unsupervised. If she was supervised then they could've intervened.
And the facts are she did wake up and cried for an indeterminate amount of time, and guess what, Sean was awake too! This proves my point.
Those poor kids, terrible way to treat your own children. Madeleine paid a terrible price at the hands of a monster as a direct result.