Are the statements accurate? Control Risk verses PJ.

[Mr Gray]

That's part of the point.

It is my understanding, rightly or wrongly, that information in the PJ Files was routinely sent to a prosecutor, to keep the fellow up to date, and to show that the on-going investigation was legal.

This would have meant potential issues re a non-police organisation investigating very early in an active PJ case.  I doubt that material ever entered the PJ Files, so to answer Robbity's question, I doubt there was ever a need to remove it.

A further problem is that Control Risks acted for MW, not the McCanns, which it didn't influence results, it should have.

A final difficulty is the Control Risks did not have access to the McCann PJ statements, or the T7s, at the time of interviewing the McCanns.  This reduces it to Control Risks starting from scratch and using their own methodology.  Non-comparable statements.

I also doubt very much that the UK police had the authority to request that material not sourced by them was pulled from the PJ Files.

I think you are totally wrong. The PJ file would consist of all the information received...I doubt the CR   satteemnts were thrown in the bin having been read...therefore they must ahve been filed.

[ShiningInLuz]

I think you are totally wrong. The PJ file would consist of all the information received...I doubt the CR   satteemnts were thrown in the bin having been read...therefore they must ahve been filed.

If you can find where they once appeared in the PJ Files, go for it.

Otherwise 

[Mr Gray]

If you can find where they once appeared in the PJ Files, go for it.

Otherwise 

you obviously dont understand...they are not in the released files...but unless the PJ threw them in the bin...they would have to be in the complete files...that is fact...not opinion

[Robittybob1]

Do you have any reason to assume they ever were in the first place?

There is the timeline in the PJ files based on them.

[ShiningInLuz]

There is the timeline in the PJ files based on them.

OK.  I don't recall ever seeing that.  Where is it, please?

[Mr Gray]

OK.  I don't recall ever seeing that.  Where is it, please?

you actually replied to this post of mine this evening..
They are mentioned by the PJ in the Brigade of Information report...that proves the PJ saw them

[ShiningInLuz]

you actually replied to this post of mine this evening..
They are mentioned by the PJ in the Brigade of Information report...that proves the PJ saw them

I'm not going to read 14 pages over such a stupid argument.

That report says information from Control Risks plus other sources were used to try to construct a timeline.

As yet, I have not seen the Control Risks interviews, so I have no reason to believe they ever entered the PJ Files.

[Mr Gray]

I'm not going to read 14 pages over such a stupid argument.

That report says information from Control Risks plus other sources were used to try to construct a timeline.

As yet, I have not seen the Control Risks interviews, so I have no reason to believe they ever entered the PJ Files.

so do you think they were thrown in the bin.....the PJ had them..they were either filed or thrown in the bin...by your logic they were thrown away

[Robittybob1]

so do you think they were thrown in the bin.....the PJ had them..they were either filed or thrown in the bin...by your logic they were thrown away

Only after they were read mind you.

[barrier]

There is the timeline in the PJ files based on them.

This?

This 'timeline' was created based upon translations of statements made be elements of the group to the Portuguese police, from statements made in English to 'Control Risks' by five elements of the group and by Emma Knights, manager of client support services for Mark Warner, from various statements and questioning of Mark Warner staff made to the Portuguese and British police and from questioning carried out at that time.

At about 22.00 when Kate Healy returned to the apartment to check on the children, the rest of the group were at the Tapas Bar/Restaurant except for Jane Tanner, who was in her apartment G5D as, E**e, one of her children was unwell.

When Kate discovered that her daughter Madeleine was not in the apartment (G5A) she ran back to the Tapas Bar to alert the rest of the group.
Dianne Webster remained at the table whilst all the others rushed to the apartment. Gerry McCann and Kate Healy were the first to return to their apartment, where Kate had left the patio doors completely open and the twins were fast asleep in their beds.

Gerald searched the apartment and stated that the window of the children's bedroom was open and the shutter raised. He checked the shutter before continuing to search outside.

All the men from the group began to search the immediate area.

David Payne ran from the McCann's apartment towards the Millenium area. Then he turned in the direction of the church. He searched the rocky areas of the beach/coast and checked the stands and boats. He then returned to the Ocean Club reception, passing the Millenium area. David then checked the area around the walls together with Matthew Odlfield.


Russell O'Brien was in the McCanns apartment for a moment only, rushing out to search the perimeter of the apartment. Then he went to look for Madeleine with Matthew Oldfield. They went in the direction of the beach. He searched the perimeter of the tennis courts and the paths leading to the beach. Russell searched the gardens and all of the surrounding area. He searched the eastern part of the beach, zigzagging back along the roads to the McCann's apartment. All the time more people were joining in the search and Russell knew the police had been contacted.
Afterwards he searched the adjacent apartments to the east of Kate and Gerry along the Rua da Ramalhete and more apartments to the east. On some occasions David Payne was with him.

When Matthew saw that Madeleine was not in the apartment, he went to the 24 hours reception to ask them to telephone the police. Matthew spent most of the night searching the neighbouring areas for Madeleine without success. Matthew searched the road between the apartment and the cr'he. He searched between the apartment and the Millenium restaurant, also along the beach and finally a cemetery as well as the road leading back to the apartment. Part of this search was carried out with David Payne and Russell O'Brien and part was carried out alone. Matthew talked to an Indian insurance salesman and saw Nathan, the director of the beach concession.

Fiona Payne was the only woman from the group to help in the searches. Fiona searched the periphery of the complex ' one search, which she made alone. When she returned she spent the rest of the night with Kate.

After waiting at the restaurant table for five minutes, Dianne Webster went to the McCann's apartment where she entered the children's bedroom and saw Kate with the twins. Kate insisted on the fact that the window and shutters were open when she saw the children, Dianne went outside to see if she could raise the shutter from the outside and found it to be impossible. Dianne stayed in the McCann's apartment for about 5 minutes and then returned to the restaurant to fetch her bag, the McCann's camera and the baby monitor. She then immediately returned to the McCann's apartment. Gerry and Kate were in the apartment as well as Fiona. Fiona asked Dianne to stay with Lily and Scarlet to check that they were ok. Dianne returned to the Payne apartment and stayed there for the rest of the night.

Rachel Mampilly went to see her own daughter before going to meet Jane in her apartment. When they talked Jane told her that when she had gone to check on the children she saw Gerry and Jez talking together as well as a man carrying a child. Jane told Rachel that she had not said anything at the time because nobody knew that Madeleine had gone missing and she had not seen the child's face.


Summary

It is difficult to confirm where all the elements were in the minutes/ hours after the discovery that Madeleine was missing. It appears that most of the women remained within or near the apartments, Fiona Payne left and searched around the complex, before returning to the McCann's apartment where she stayed with Kate. Then Emma Knights (client support director) searched the beach area and asked Kate what Madeleine had been wearing. Shortly afterwards Emma returned to the McCann's apartment and stayed with Kate.

The men's movements, however, are more difficult to pinpoint.

Gerald was seen and spoken to by Neil Berry and Raj Malu. They heard him calling for Madeleine when they were sitting on Neil's balcony, not far from the McCann's apartment. They both went down to talk to Gerald and helped in the search.

Both David Payne and Matthew Oldfield were seen by Emma Knights when she was on her way to the beach, the search area to which she was assigned by Lyndsey Johnson (child care director and search coordinator).

At about 01.00 Matthew was with John Hill (resort manager) when they knocked on Jeremy Wilkins's door to ask if he had seen anything.

At about 23.30 a white fair haired man aged about 30, one of the friends of the McCann group was seen by Valerie Kerr and her family when he asked them if they had seen Madeleine. They were near to the chapel. Valerie and Laura returned to their apartment, changed clothes and went to help with the search.


Conclusion

In the confusion following the disappearance of Madeleine it would be possible that one of the men or Fiona Payne 'escaped' to join in the searches again later.


https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANALYSIS-SEP-07.htm

[ShiningInLuz]

so do you think they were thrown in the bin.....the PJ had them..they were either filed or thrown in the bin...by your logic they were thrown away

Hardly.   

Show me the statements or the entries in the PJ Files.

No need to expunge that which was never there.

[Mr Gray]

Hardly.   

Show me the statements or the entries in the PJ Files.

No need to expunge that which was never there.

perhaps the pj were as incompetent as you suggest and threw them in the bin...otherwise they would be in the files

[barrier]

perhaps the pj were as incompetent as you suggest and threw them in the bin...otherwise they would be in the files

Good way to trace a route to a tip,

[G-Unit]

This?

This 'timeline' was created based upon translations of statements made be elements of the group to the Portuguese police, from statements made in English to 'Control Risks' by five elements of the group and by Emma Knights, manager of client support services for Mark Warner, from various statements and questioning of Mark Warner staff made to the Portuguese and British police and from questioning carried out at that time.

At about 22.00 when Kate Healy returned to the apartment to check on the children, the rest of the group were at the Tapas Bar/Restaurant except for Jane Tanner, who was in her apartment G5D as, E**e, one of her children was unwell.

When Kate discovered that her daughter Madeleine was not in the apartment (G5A) she ran back to the Tapas Bar to alert the rest of the group.
Dianne Webster remained at the table whilst all the others rushed to the apartment. Gerry McCann and Kate Healy were the first to return to their apartment, where Kate had left the patio doors completely open and the twins were fast asleep in their beds.

Gerald searched the apartment and stated that the window of the children's bedroom was open and the shutter raised. He checked the shutter before continuing to search outside.

All the men from the group began to search the immediate area.

David Payne ran from the McCann's apartment towards the Millenium area. Then he turned in the direction of the church. He searched the rocky areas of the beach/coast and checked the stands and boats. He then returned to the Ocean Club reception, passing the Millenium area. David then checked the area around the walls together with Matthew Odlfield.


Russell O'Brien was in the McCanns apartment for a moment only, rushing out to search the perimeter of the apartment. Then he went to look for Madeleine with Matthew Oldfield. They went in the direction of the beach. He searched the perimeter of the tennis courts and the paths leading to the beach. Russell searched the gardens and all of the surrounding area. He searched the eastern part of the beach, zigzagging back along the roads to the McCann's apartment. All the time more people were joining in the search and Russell knew the police had been contacted.
Afterwards he searched the adjacent apartments to the east of Kate and Gerry along the Rua da Ramalhete and more apartments to the east. On some occasions David Payne was with him.

When Matthew saw that Madeleine was not in the apartment, he went to the 24 hours reception to ask them to telephone the police. Matthew spent most of the night searching the neighbouring areas for Madeleine without success. Matthew searched the road between the apartment and the cr'he. He searched between the apartment and the Millenium restaurant, also along the beach and finally a cemetery as well as the road leading back to the apartment. Part of this search was carried out with David Payne and Russell O'Brien and part was carried out alone. Matthew talked to an Indian insurance salesman and saw Nathan, the director of the beach concession.

Fiona Payne was the only woman from the group to help in the searches. Fiona searched the periphery of the complex ' one search, which she made alone. When she returned she spent the rest of the night with Kate.

After waiting at the restaurant table for five minutes, Dianne Webster went to the McCann's apartment where she entered the children's bedroom and saw Kate with the twins. Kate insisted on the fact that the window and shutters were open when she saw the children, Dianne went outside to see if she could raise the shutter from the outside and found it to be impossible. Dianne stayed in the McCann's apartment for about 5 minutes and then returned to the restaurant to fetch her bag, the McCann's camera and the baby monitor. She then immediately returned to the McCann's apartment. Gerry and Kate were in the apartment as well as Fiona. Fiona asked Dianne to stay with Lily and Scarlet to check that they were ok. Dianne returned to the Payne apartment and stayed there for the rest of the night.

Rachel Mampilly went to see her own daughter before going to meet Jane in her apartment. When they talked Jane told her that when she had gone to check on the children she saw Gerry and Jez talking together as well as a man carrying a child. Jane told Rachel that she had not said anything at the time because nobody knew that Madeleine had gone missing and she had not seen the child's face.


Summary

It is difficult to confirm where all the elements were in the minutes/ hours after the discovery that Madeleine was missing. It appears that most of the women remained within or near the apartments, Fiona Payne left and searched around the complex, before returning to the McCann's apartment where she stayed with Kate. Then Emma Knights (client support director) searched the beach area and asked Kate what Madeleine had been wearing. Shortly afterwards Emma returned to the McCann's apartment and stayed with Kate.

The men's movements, however, are more difficult to pinpoint.

Gerald was seen and spoken to by Neil Berry and Raj Malu. They heard him calling for Madeleine when they were sitting on Neil's balcony, not far from the McCann's apartment. They both went down to talk to Gerald and helped in the search.

Both David Payne and Matthew Oldfield were seen by Emma Knights when she was on her way to the beach, the search area to which she was assigned by Lyndsey Johnson (child care director and search coordinator).

At about 01.00 Matthew was with John Hill (resort manager) when they knocked on Jeremy Wilkins's door to ask if he had seen anything.

At about 23.30 a white fair haired man aged about 30, one of the friends of the McCann group was seen by Valerie Kerr and her family when he asked them if they had seen Madeleine. They were near to the chapel. Valerie and Laura returned to their apartment, changed clothes and went to help with the search.


Conclusion

In the confusion following the disappearance of Madeleine it would be possible that one of the men or Fiona Payne 'escaped' to join in the searches again later.


https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANALYSIS-SEP-07.htm

That report, of course, wasn't wtitten by the PJ. It was produced by 'Eaton' a UK police Analyst.

[ShiningInLuz]

perhaps the pj were as incompetent as you suggest and threw them in the bin...otherwise they would be in the files

At no time in this exchange have I suggested the PJ were incompetent.

You keep asserting they were thrown in a bin.

Show me the Control Risks statements in the PJ Files.

If you can't, you are waffling.