The evidence places Gerry McCann in the tapas bar at 10pm

[Puffin]

There appears to be a bout of codolgy going about in many of the discussions as far as I can see.  Anyone who believes  that Gerry McCann got up from his dinner to carry a corpse around Praia Da Luz is frankly missing something in their lives.  How absolutely stupid does that whole proposition sound?  Would you do it?

Lets bring some reality to this case folks and stop posting bullshit.  If Gerry had for some reason wanted to move his daughter following some sort of accidental death don't you think he would have at least waited until everyone was in bed.

Lets have some common sense PLEASE!

Good comment, but you are being very optimistic, I think.  Reality is not around at present.

I hate to repeat it, John, but in the dead of night, when everybody sleeps, the item could have been too cold to deposit in a narrow place. Doctors know it.

@ AnneGuedes  Item?  Since when has a child, alive or dead, become an item?

[John]

Ferryman, according to your own quote, Mr Wilkins stated he saw Jane Tanner when he first ventured out, which was around 8.30pm.That makes it before his chat with Gerry Mccann and not after.

Indeed.  Before rather than after.

So that quote bears no relation to the rumour that Jane Tanner never left the table that night. Incidentally, it was not a rumour, but the opinion of a Spanish American detective who travelled out to PDL, interviewed the Tapas Bar staff and appeared in a documentary about the case, as well as on numerous TV news specials. Why he formed that opinion I don't recall.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4crZrHLJUw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

An excellent video find Redblossom.  His ultimate comment is rather interesting considering Jez Wilkins later stated he had seen Jane on two occasions that night.  The truth as always lies somewhere in the middle of all this.   >@@(*&)

Another point everyone might consider is that it is not possible to tell the time of death to any great accuracy after several hours have passed.  We have seen this in many other cases.

[Carana]

@ John

This part of the statement you posted is particularly interesting :

'He does not remember having seen Madeleine's parents leave the table for short instances, but it is possible that someone could have left the table without the witness having noticed.'

So Gerry could have been gone from the able for some time without the witness having noticed.

To be honest I can't see how the statement furthers the cause of Gerry being at the tapas table at the time of the Smith sighting.

You cannot justify speculation by posting a negative.  Lots of people may have done certain things or could have done certain things but unless it is evidenced and corroborated then it still remains speculation and worst of all GOSSIP.

The waiter clearly recalls delivering 9 meals for 9 people and being asked to take one back for Russell.  Had anyone left the table for a greater time than 10 minutes he would have noticed it.  The fact that he didn't see anyone leave the table is evidence in itself.

For Gerry to have gone to the apartment, walked down town by the not-so-scenic-route, done whatever you are suggesting he did and returned by the same route whilst remaining clean and undishevelled he would have to had been away for at least 20 minutes.  That absence in anyone's book would have been noticed by a waiter who was serving tables and providing drinks for his guests.

Sooooo.

Where are we. Perhaps we could consider this from a different perspective:

- No one can state that he was absent during that time, aside from the post-arguido doubt of Martin Smith and his wife (but not the kids).
- Did anyone notice him being particularly quiet, nervous, anxious that evening?
- How many people would have been required to consipire in any such cover-up?
- When would such a mega cover-up plan have been hatched and agreed upon by those concerned?
- No body has been found.

[sadie]

There appears to be a bout of codolgy going about in many of the discussions as far as I can see.  Anyone who believes  that Gerry McCann got up from his dinner to carry a corpse around Praia Da Luz is frankly missing something in their lives.  How absolutely stupid does that whole proposition sound?  Would you do it?

Lets bring some reality to this case folks and stop posting bullshit.  If Gerry had for some reason wanted to move his daughter following some sort of accidental death don't you think he would have at least waited until everyone was in bed.

Lets have some common sense PLEASE!

Good comment, but you are being very optimistic, I think.  Reality is not around at present.

I hate to repeat it, John, but in the dead of night, when everybody sleeps, the item could have been too cold to deposit in a narrow place. Doctors know it.

@ AnneGuedes  Item?  Since when has a child, alive or dead, become an item?

'Anne

Item? ... for a child?   That sounds like the word a member of the gang might use, hiding that it is a child  ... when communicating with another via email

That makes me wonder....?


Only joking.  I feel sure you wouldn't be

[ferryman]

@ John

This part of the statement you posted is particularly interesting :

'He does not remember having seen Madeleine's parents leave the table for short instances, but it is possible that someone could have left the table without the witness having noticed.'

So Gerry could have been gone from the able for some time without the witness having noticed.

To be honest I can't see how the statement furthers the cause of Gerry being at the tapas table at the time of the Smith sighting.

You cannot justify speculation by posting a negative.  Lots of people may have done certain things or could have done certain things but unless it is evidenced and corroborated then it still remains speculation and worst of all GOSSIP.

The waiter clearly recalls delivering 9 meals for 9 people and being asked to take one back for Russell.  Had anyone left the table for a greater time than 10 minutes he would have noticed it.  The fact that he didn't see anyone leave the table is evidence in itself.

For Gerry to have gone to the apartment, walked down town by the not-so-scenic-route, done whatever you are suggesting he did and returned by the same route whilst remaining clean and undishevelled he would have to had been away for at least 20 minutes.  That absence in anyone's book would have been noticed by a waiter who was serving tables and providing drinks for his guests.

Sooooo.

Where are we. Perhaps we could consider this from a different perspective:

- No one can state that he was absent during that time, aside from the post-arguido doubt of Martin Smith and his wife (but not the kids).
- Did anyone notice him being particularly quiet, nervous, anxious that evening?
- How many people would have been required to consipire in any such cover-up?
- When would such a mega cover-up plan have been hatched and agreed upon by those concerned?
- No body has been found.

Good post.  One point to add.

For Kate and Gerry to have collaborated in something nefarious as Amaral suggests, Kate and Gerry would have had to have been jointly absent from the restaurant at some point between their joint arrival and Kate's alert.

That would certainly have been noticed and commented on.

What's the alternative?

Kate finds Madeleine's body (Amaral insists that because Eddie picked up certain items of her clothing, an untrained and deleterious response from any dog attending a crime scene, I digress ...) recovers from the shock of such a dreadful discovery, and somehow finds a way of communicating to Gerry, oblivious and unaware in the restaurant, that their/his daughter is dead without anyone else noticing. 

That stretches credulity far beyond breaking-point surely? ...

On the point of Carana's I underline, Amaral himself has always accepted that Kate and Gerry could not have spent the majority of the evening in an, apparently, relaxed and carefree way despite knowing something dreadful had happened to Madeleine.

[Redblossom]

John, did Mr Wilkins say he saw Jane Tanner on two occasions that night? i thought it was just the once, around 8.30pm.

[AnneGuedes]

There appears to be a bout of codolgy going about in many of the discussions as far as I can see.  Anyone who believes  that Gerry McCann got up from his dinner to carry a corpse around Praia Da Luz is frankly missing something in their lives.  How absolutely stupid does that whole proposition sound?  Would you do it?

Lets bring some reality to this case folks and stop posting bullshit.  If Gerry had for some reason wanted to move his daughter following some sort of accidental death don't you think he would have at least waited until everyone was in bed.

Lets have some common sense PLEASE!

Good comment, but you are being very optimistic, I think.  Reality is not around at present.

I hate to repeat it, John, but in the dead of night, when everybody sleeps, the item could have been too cold to deposit in a narrow place. Doctors know it.

@ AnneGuedes  Item?  Since when has a child, alive or dead, become an item?

I've never called an alive child an item, don't worry !
A poster on another forum used the word "item" for human remains, out of delicacy I suppose. Some people here are obviously horrified by the idea Madeleine could be dead, I respect them, at least try to.

[AnneGuedes]

There appears to be a bout of codolgy going about in many of the discussions as far as I can see.  Anyone who believes  that Gerry McCann got up from his dinner to carry a corpse around Praia Da Luz is frankly missing something in their lives.  How absolutely stupid does that whole proposition sound?  Would you do it?

Lets bring some reality to this case folks and stop posting bullshit.  If Gerry had for some reason wanted to move his daughter following some sort of accidental death don't you think he would have at least waited until everyone was in bed.

Lets have some common sense PLEASE!

Good comment, but you are being very optimistic, I think.  Reality is not around at present.

I hate to repeat it, John, but in the dead of night, when everybody sleeps, the item could have been too cold to deposit in a narrow place. Doctors know it.

@ AnneGuedes  Item?  Since when has a child, alive or dead, become an item?

'Anne

Item? ... for a child?   That sounds like the word a member of the gang might use, hiding that it is a child  ... when communicating with another via email

That makes me wonder....?


Only joking.  I feel sure you wouldn't be

All the same I'll never use this word again, at least here !
Note that I (missing the objective to not hurt) used "cold" instead of "stiff".

[Carana]

Soooo. Where are we on this?

Has it been established that no one else other than the T9 was in the restaurant at the time of the alert or is it not clear who else may have been still dining there at the time of the alert?

How many of those who had reserved tables that night (aside from the T9) have been interviewed?

[AnneGuedes]

Soooo. Where are we on this?

Has it been established that no one else other than the T9 was in the restaurant at the time of the alert or is it not clear who else may have been still dining there at the time of the alert?

How many of those who had reserved tables that night (aside from the T9) have been interviewed?

Around 10:00 likely nobody was dining other than the TP9.
The Sperrey couple talked of by JW showed their passport (in the PJFiles) but there's no statement. About the Irwin couple (on the register same table as the TP9) there's nothing in the PJFiles.

[sadie]

so we dont know for sure.

[Carana]

Soooo. Where are we on this?

Has it been established that no one else other than the T9 was in the restaurant at the time of the alert or is it not clear who else may have been still dining there at the time of the alert?

How many of those who had reserved tables that night (aside from the T9) have been interviewed?

Around 10:00 likely nobody was dining other than the TP9.
The Sperrey couple talked of by JW showed their passport (in the PJFiles) but there's no statement. About the Irwin couple (on the register same table as the TP9) there's nothing in the PJFiles.

I'd agree that the people who'd booked earlier would probably have left by 22:00.

I understand the bracket for the same table as the T9, with the Irwins also booked for 20:30. And the Spenneys booked for 21:00. If the tick by the names means they turned up, then I find it fairly likely that at least the Spenneys would have still been there.

ww.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAPAS_BOOKING.htm

[AnneGuedes]

The PJ asked for the "rasta" passports, because JW had some suspicion. About the Irwing they questioned the TP9, none of them knew what they looked like nor that they ever existed. Some people would come to fetch their meals and eat them at home. Those 2 couples could have done this.

[insider]

And an extract from the Final Report from the Judiciary Police Investigative Criminal Department of Portimão dated 20th June 2008.

http://missingmadeleine.forumotion.net/t8291-the-pj-final-report

Further on this issue, the testimony of MARTIN SMITH was considered, pages 1606 and following, reporting the sighting of an individual carrying a child, in one of the streets that lead to the beach. It was said that the child could be MADELEINE McCANN, although it was never peremptorily stated. Some time later, the witness alleged that, by its stance, the individual who carried the child could be GERALD McCANN, which was concluded when he saw him descending the stairs from an airplane, pages 2871, 3991 and following and 4135 and following. It was established that at the time that was being mentioned, GERALD McCANN was sitting at the table, in the Tapas Restaurant.

[insider]

In respect of Mr McCanns alibi it is worth reproducing an extract from the letter from the Republic's Prosecutor to the Attorney General dated  21st July 2008.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm


Martin Smith was questioned, who said that at the beginning of the Travessa da Escola Primária he saw an individual carrying a child, walking in the opposite direction, at a normal pace, when he passed this individual it must have been about 22.00, being totally unaware that a child had disappeared. Later he states that when he saw Gerald McCann on the news, leaving by plane, he appeared to him to be the individual whom he had seen on the night of 3rd May in Praia da Luz.

 This witness was heard again by the Drogheda Irish police on 23-01-08, having been shown a video clip of Gerald McCann’s departure by plane carrying one of the twins. This witness maintains his belief that judging by the posture, there seemed to be a probability of 60-80% that the person seen by him at about 21.55 at the previously mentioned place, was Madeleine’s father. At this time, Gerald’s presence at the restaurant was confirmed by his friends and has not been denied by restaurant employees.