Author Topic: The evidence places Gerry McCann in the tapas bar at 10pm  (Read 189736 times)

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amaraltheofficeboy

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Re: The evidence places Gerry McCann in the tapas bar at 10pm
« Reply #180 on: May 09, 2013, 08:12:35 PM »
No - we are discussing:

Quote
Independent witnesses place Gerry McCann at the tapas bar at 10pm

amaraltheofficeboy

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Re: The evidence places Gerry McCann in the tapas bar at 10pm
« Reply #181 on: May 09, 2013, 08:18:44 PM »
well I just wanted to keep on topic.

amaraltheofficeboy

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Re: The evidence places Gerry McCann in the tapas bar at 10pm
« Reply #182 on: May 09, 2013, 08:32:30 PM »
well I just wanted to keep on topic.

Topics change and new data gets introduced,surrounding and relevant to the OP, if you dont like the new data, youcan say lets getback on topoc, tara now

well - you have a missing man - I don't. I offered an alternative explanation - you dismissed it.

I think it is up to you to come up with an explanation.

I will stay on topic.

ferryman

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Re: The evidence places Gerry McCann in the tapas bar at 10pm
« Reply #183 on: May 09, 2013, 09:16:02 PM »
It doesn't really matter who it was.  The waiter noticed that two men had left the table during the meal and that both had returned just prior to everyone leaving when the alarm was raised.

Killjoy ...

Offline DCI

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Re: The evidence places Gerry McCann in the tapas bar at 10pm
« Reply #184 on: May 09, 2013, 09:17:23 PM »
It doesn't really matter who it was.  The waiter noticed that two men had left the table during the meal and that both had returned just prior to everyone leaving when the alarm was raised.

Killjoy ...

Then he gives another version.

Joaquim Jose Moreira Baptista

Occupation: Waiter

Place of Work: Tapas Bar, OC

Time/Date: 18H50 2007/05/06

Portuguese National

Comes to the process as a witness. He has worked as a waiter at the Tapas restaurant since 12th Feb 2007. His shift is from 16.00 - 24.00 except for Saturdays when he works from 11.30 to 19.00. The clients who frequent the restaurant are mainly English tourists staying at the OC resort.


When asked he says that he clearly recalls the appearance of the girl's parents, he does not know their names, together with a group of English tourists who generally accompanied them, as for almost a week prior to the disappearance they would dine practically every day in the Tapas restaurant. On the occasions he saw the group dining at the restaurant he never saw the children.

When asked, he says he does not remember ever having seen Madeleine's face, which only happened when he saw her photograph after the disappearance.

When asked, he said that during dinner the men from the group would leave the table, returning to the table a few minutes later. The witness says that he does not know where they went. These absences would last for about 15 minutes. He cannot say with what regularity these absences occurred.

The witness remembers these occurrences well as would often have to take a plate of food requested by one of them back, due to the guest's absence, when he would find that the guest was not at the table when he came to serve the food.

When questioned, the witness says that he remembers on Thursday 3rd May, on the day of the disappearance, that the parents went to dine at the restaurant with the usual people. He cannot be precise, but the witness says that the group arrived between 20.00 and 21.00. He remembers there being about 9 people in total. He states that he received the food orders from the group.

Later, between 22.00 and 22.30, when the witness was in the kitchen, he was informed by a colleague that in the meantime a client had entered the restaurant shouting and that afterwards the whole English had left in a panic. The witness' colleague told him that this individual had said that a child had disappeared. A few minutes later the witness noticed great agitation, with many people everywhere searching for the child.

From information that was coming out, the witness learned that the child was a girl, the daughter of one of the English couple and that she had been in a room nearby.

When asked, the witness says that at the time he was working in the restaurant and referring to the days before the disappearance, he never noticed anything unusual. He said that he was never asked about the habits of the English group nor any questions concerning children. He says that on the day of the disappearance from the time he arrived at work, he did not notice anything unusual.

When asked, he says that at the end of the evening the area surrounding the Tapas is quiet with little circulation of people.

He has no comments as to the motive for the disappearance.

No more is said. Read, ratifies, signs.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOAQUIM-J-M-BAPTISTA.htm
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amaraltheofficeboy

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Re: The evidence places Gerry McCann in the tapas bar at 10pm
« Reply #185 on: May 09, 2013, 09:26:36 PM »
Quote
waiters are generally very very observant  its part of their job to watch tables

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Re: The evidence places Gerry McCann in the tapas bar at 10pm
« Reply #186 on: May 09, 2013, 09:34:01 PM »
--------- JOAQUIM JOSE MOREIRA BATISTA  - table employee [waiter].
- Of the group of 8/9 British citizens who dined at the restaurant last night, as usual, of which the parents of missing were part (he didn't know them) he noticed that two individuals left the table, of the male gender.
- The first to leave was about 40/45 years old (tall, skinny, white complexion, with large [a full head of] hair of color gray) and the period of his absence was about 15 minutes, being that they had to [re-]heat his food, which had cooled;
- The second to leave (about 40/45 years of age, having the physical characteristics of the first, but having less bulky hair) did so for about 30 minutes, and that shortly after he returned, all left the table, except for an elderly person, who told him that a child had disappeared, the daughter of a member of the group, due to which he thought that the second person to leave could have been the father of the child;


Anyknow who this second person is supposed to be?

Eta for link

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAPAS-EMPLOYEES.htm

I suggest you read the tapas staff witness statements at least twice.   The second person was Jane's partner Russell who had to remain in their apartment for about 30 minutes with their daughter.  When Jane relieved him he returned to the tapas but was unable to finish his meal due the alert by Kate shortly after 10pm.

If you read Ricardo's statement he confirms that all 9 diners were seated when he took their orders at 8.45pm.  Only one person was missing from the table for any length of time and that was Russell.  He confirms Russell's return at 9.45pm.  Gerry was there all evening except for the trip to check on the children at 9.10pm.

icabodcrane

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Re: The evidence places Gerry McCann in the tapas bar at 10pm
« Reply #187 on: May 09, 2013, 09:55:32 PM »
--------- JOAQUIM JOSE MOREIRA BATISTA  - table employee [waiter].
- Of the group of 8/9 British citizens who dined at the restaurant last night, as usual, of which the parents of missing were part (he didn't know them) he noticed that two individuals left the table, of the male gender.
- The first to leave was about 40/45 years old (tall, skinny, white complexion, with large [a full head of] hair of color gray) and the period of his absence was about 15 minutes, being that they had to [re-]heat his food, which had cooled;
- The second to leave (about 40/45 years of age, having the physical characteristics of the first, but having less bulky hair) did so for about 30 minutes, and that shortly after he returned, all left the table, except for an elderly person, who told him that a child had disappeared, the daughter of a member of the group, due to which he thought that the second person to leave could have been the father of the child;


Anyknow who this second person is supposed to be?

Eta for link

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAPAS-EMPLOYEES.htm

I suggest you read the tapas staff witness statements at least twice.   The second person was Jane's partner Russell who had to remain in their apartment for about 30 minutes with their daughter.  When Jane relieved him he returned to the tapas but was unable to finish his meal due the alert by Kate shortly after 10pm.

If you read Ricardo's statement he confirms that all 9 diners were seated when he took their orders at 8.45pm.  Only one person was missing from the table for any length of time and that was Russell.  He confirms Russell's return at 9.45pm.  Gerry was there all evening except for the trip to check on the children at 9.10pm.

Your conclusion is baffling

The description of the first man matches O Brian exactly ! ...  the waiter even mentions having to re-heat his meal (  as O Brian, himself confirmed happened )

Why are you suggesting that the  second man was O'Brian instead ? 

Offline Chinagirl

Re: The evidence places Gerry McCann in the tapas bar at 10pm
« Reply #188 on: May 09, 2013, 11:38:30 PM »
The man's name is O'BRIEN.
A

Offline Admin

Re: The evidence places Gerry McCann in the tapas bar at 10pm
« Reply #189 on: May 10, 2013, 01:31:01 AM »
The clue is in the "...and that shortly after he returned, all left the table, except for an elderly person..." bit.

icabodcrane

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Re: The evidence places Gerry McCann in the tapas bar at 10pm
« Reply #190 on: May 10, 2013, 02:24:12 AM »
The clue is in the "...and that shortly after he returned, all left the table, except for an elderly person..." bit.

So you are ignoring the substance of this witness's evidence,  which clearly describes O Brien as the first  man to leave  the table for 15 minutes , in order to make it  'fit' with the statements of the tapas group  ?

Why  ?   ...  why would we need to do that  ?    (  the  tapas group  might  not be telling the truth, afterall )

If we take this witness's statement at face value, then the first man he saw leave  the table  ( for 15 minutes )  was Russell O Brien ...  and, descriptively, the second man to leave the table  ( for half an hour , between 9.30 and 10pm ) was Matthew Oldfield

That is what this witness seems to be saying happened that night, isn't it  ? 

Offline Admin

Re: The evidence places Gerry McCann in the tapas bar at 10pm
« Reply #191 on: May 10, 2013, 02:39:53 AM »
The clue is in the "...and that shortly after he returned, all left the table, except for an elderly person..." bit.

So you are ignoring the substance of this witness's evidence,  which clearly describes O Brien as the first  man to leave  the table for 15 minutes , in order to make it  'fit' with the statements of the tapas group  ?

Why  ?   ...  why would we need to do that  ?    (  the  tapas group  might  not be telling the truth, afterall )

If we take this witness's statement at face value, then the first man he saw leave  the table  ( for 15 minutes )  was Russell O Brien ...  and, descriptively, the second man to leave the table  ( for half an hour , between 9.30 and 10pm ) was Matthew Oldfield

That is what this witness seems to be saying happened that night, isn't it  ?


So lets see, your evaluation is based on the amount of hair Matthew and Russell had?  I think we will be guided by the full statements of the other 10 people who evidenced what occurred.

Clearly only one person was absent from the table for any length of time and that was Russell who was minding a sick child in his apartment. 

Or would you have us believe Gerry ordered his meal, waited for it to arrive, gulped it down, had a walk around the block and a chat with Jez, a sojourn down town and an encounter with an Irish family, a visit to the beach or an abandoned garden maybe only to return 15 minutes later as if nothing had happened while in the meantime 8 others including his wife Kate dined at the table with three waiters attending them hand and foot all evening.

And nobody noticed him gone for any more than about 10 minutes on one occasion? 
« Last Edit: May 10, 2013, 02:55:31 AM by Admin »

icabodcrane

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Re: The evidence places Gerry McCann in the tapas bar at 10pm
« Reply #192 on: May 10, 2013, 02:19:18 PM »
The clue is in the "...and that shortly after he returned, all left the table, except for an elderly person..." bit.

So you are ignoring the substance of this witness's evidence,  which clearly describes O Brien as the first  man to leave  the table for 15 minutes , in order to make it  'fit' with the statements of the tapas group  ?

Why  ?   ...  why would we need to do that  ?    (  the  tapas group  might  not be telling the truth, afterall )

If we take this witness's statement at face value, then the first man he saw leave  the table  ( for 15 minutes )  was Russell O Brien ...  and, descriptively, the second man to leave the table  ( for half an hour , between 9.30 and 10pm ) was Matthew Oldfield

That is what this witness seems to be saying happened that night, isn't it  ?


So lets see, your evaluation is based on the amount of hair Matthew and Russell had?  I think we will be guided by the full statements of the other 10 people who evidenced what occurred.

Clearly only one person was absent from the table for any length of time and that was Russell who was minding a sick child in his apartment. 

Or would you have us believe Gerry ordered his meal, waited for it to arrive, gulped it down, had a walk around the block and a chat with Jez, a sojourn down town and an encounter with an Irish family, a visit to the beach or an abandoned garden maybe only to return 15 minutes later as if nothing had happened while in the meantime 8 others including his wife Kate dined at the table with three waiters attending them hand and foot all evening.

And nobody noticed him gone for any more than about 10 minutes on one occasion? 


This witness's statement does not have  to correspond with the statements given by the tapas group ...  it is valid in it's own right

I am asking that we look at it and analysise it at face value ...  even if that means, assuming, for the moment, that the tapas group may not have been telling the truth in their account of the evening's events

So let's look at this statemnent then, logically

The waiter says that one man  ( the first man ) left the table for 15 minutes.  his description of the man is about as detailed and accurate a description of Russell O Brien as you could get .  He says the man returned after 15 minutes and his meal needed to be re-heated because it had gone cold

Russell O'Brien, in his own statement, says that he left the table at about 9.25pm and that he had been in the apartment  ( tending to his child )  for about 10 minutes before Jane came to relieve him. he stayed a few minutes more and then left to go back to the tapas bar to have his main course.  So he was  away from the table for about 15 minutes.  He confirms that when he got back to the table he was about to eat his meal when the waiter came over and said,  "no"  ...  that the meal had cooled and he would bring another

The first man mentioned by the witness is  clearly  Russell O'Brien ...  there can be no question about it

So, to the second man,  who left the table for half an hour

The description given by the waiter points to it having been Matthew Oldfield.

The waiter is correct when he says two men were away from the table at the same time.  Both Russell O'Brien and Matthew Oldfield left the table at around 9.30pm.  The witness notes that one of them came back 15 minutes later  (  undoubtedly O Brien )  but that the other didn't return until just before the alarm was raised  ...  around 10pm ) 

It appears to me that if the  the witness is correct,  then the second man is Matthew Oldfield,  and  he did not return from his  check  ( the one where he went into the Mccann apartment  )  until half an hour later, just before the alarm was raised by Kate

Offline DCI

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Re: The evidence places Gerry McCann in the tapas bar at 10pm
« Reply #193 on: May 10, 2013, 03:47:48 PM »

Quote
This witness's statement does not have  to correspond with the statements given by the tapas group ...  it is valid in it's own right

As is his other one.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOAQUIM-J-M-BAPTISTA.htm
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icabodcrane

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Re: The evidence places Gerry McCann in the tapas bar at 10pm
« Reply #194 on: May 10, 2013, 03:53:22 PM »
If the waiter noticed two men missing and we can work out which two, surely if Gerry had been missing too he would have noted that absence as well...?

Well Idon't know Martha  ...  he didn't mention having noticed Gerry away from the table when he did his longer than usual check at 9.05pm,  although we know that he did leave the table at that point because Jez Wilkins met him in the road

Similarly, the witness did not notice a woman's absence from the table, despite Jane Tanner having left to relieve her partner Russell O Brien at about 9.40pm and not returning to the table at all after that

So the witness was clearly not aware of everyone's movements that night  ( there would have periods when he was in the kitchen, of course,  and out of sight of the table )

He was aware, however of the quarter of an hour and half hour absences of two men,  who, descriptively, appear to be O Brien and Oldfield