The evidence places Gerry McCann in the tapas bar at 10pm

[Chinagirl]

I think we tend to be far too forgiving of the sceptics.  The evidence of the tapas 7 would be more than enough in any court proceedings to establish Kate and Gerry's whereabouts let alone the need for further corroboration by independent witnesses.

The claim that these professional people were involved in some sort of conspiracy is simply too crazy for words.

John, I think this term "independent witnesses" is misleading.  The Tapas 7 ARE independent witnesses - as independent as anyone else. 

[stephen25000]

Anne, why do you post unhelpful and erroneous information stating that we don't know when the alert was made by Kate when we know exactly when it was made?

From several different sources both inside and outside the Ocean Club we know that Kate came running back to the tapas bar a few minutes after 10pm, the exact time when the Smiths encountered a man carrying a child on the other side of town.

As far as the shutters are concerned we also have Matthews rogatory statement to the effect that the shutters were up when he entered the bedroom.

Unfortunately, merely because something is given in a statement does not make it true.

The use of the shutters/window by the Mccanns falls well within the 'made up abduction' scenario.

[icabodcrane]

They are misinterpreting the statements.   The dinner finished at 9.45pm certainly (except for Russell of course) but nobody left the table until after the alert...simple.

Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this revisit of the facts.  It is very clear that the weight of evidence sits firmly with Gerry being in the tapas bar when Kate alerted to the abduction shortly after 10pm.   Not a scintilla of evidence of any sort has been produced to the contrary.

It is very obvious therefore that the man the Smiths saw down the town at 10pm was not Mr Gerald McCann.

That is simply not true

No independent witnesses place Gerry McCann  at the table at 10pm  ...  that has been established

As to  there being  'not a scintilla'  of evidence  to the contrary  ...  that is also not  true

Mr Smith and his wife say that they almost certainly saw Gerry McCann making his way towards the beach at around 10pm,  with a child exactly matching Madeleine's description,  in his arms

You may choose to disbelieve Mr and Mrs Smith  ...  but you certainly cannot say that the evidence they provided does not exist

[ferryman]

That is simply not true

No independent witnesses place Gerry McCann  at the table at 10pm  ...  that has been established

As to  there being  'not a scintilla'  of evidence  to the contrary  ...  that is also not  true

Mr Smith and his wife say that they almost certainly saw Gerry McCann making his way towards the beach at around 10pm,  with a child exactly matching Madeleine's description,  in his arms

You may choose to disbelieve Mr and Mrs Smith  ...  but you certainly cannot say that the evidence they provided does not exist

Disbelieve Mr Smith?

We know what he said back then.

What does he say now?

And of course I'm sure we all believe Mr Smith when he says that none of his children agreed with him that the man they saw was Gerry ...

[stephen25000]

Disbelieve Mr Smith?

We know what he said back then.

What does he say now?

We already know what he thought.

[icabodcrane]

Disbelieve Mr Smith?

We know what he said back then.

What does he say now?

'Imagining'  that Mr Smith and his wife may  have  'changed their minds'  is neither here nor there

My point was,  that whilst  NO  independent witnesses say Gerry McCann was at the table at 10pm  ...  two independent witnesses   (  Mr and Mrs Smith )   say he was  NOT,     (  they say he passed them at around 10pm,  as he made his way in the direction of the beach with a child matching Madeleine's description in his arms ) 

[Albertini]

We have Martin Smith's subsequent statement identifying Gerry McCann with 60-80% certainty and we have Aoife Smith's statement which says (about the man carrying the child):

His trousers were smooth "rights" along the legs, beige in colour, cotton fabric, thicker than linen, possibly with buttons, and without any other decoration.

And we have this picture of Gerry McCann:


How many men could have been walking around PDL with a 60-80% resemblence to Gerry McCann and wearing (unusual) trousers for which there is a photo on file of Gerry McCann wearing the exact same trousers carrying a child?

[Benice]

'Imagining'  that Mr Smith and his wife may  have  'changed their minds'  is neither here nor there

My point was,  that whilst  NO  independent witnesses say Gerry McCann was at the table at 10pm  ...  two independent witnesses   (  Mr and Mrs Smith )   say he was  NOT,     (  they say he passed them at around 10pm,  as he made his way in the direction of the beach with a child matching Madeleine's description in his arms )

It seems part of this cunning plan was for Gerry to be back at the table after he had disposed of the body and before the alarm was raised - to give himself an alibi via the restaurant staff - and yet according to you Icab Kate raised the alarm before he had returned.     Why on earth would she ruin everything by doing that?  That absolutely makes no sense.

If you think about all the stuff he would have to do after leaving Jez -  and before being seen by the Smiths - then after that having to carry on to the beach(?) dispose of the body and get back  -  there simply isn't enough time to fit it all in.    Remember before he left he would have had to arrange with JT to lie about seeing him with Jez, and that would involve him having to describe the scene to her - so that she could remember when she told the police.  All the others would have to agree to be on it  - to back JT's story up.      Apparently he also ate a 3 course meal after he left Jez - and changed his clothes before he left to dispose of the body.

If you think it was possible then feel free to convince me Icab - but with a few believable timelines.











 

[icabodcrane]

It seems part of this cunning plan was for Gerry to be back at the table after he had disposed of the body and before the alarm was raised - to give himself an alibi via the restaurant staff - and yet according to you Icab Kate raised the alarm before he had returned.     Why on earth would she ruin everything by doing that?  That absolutely makes no sense.

If you think about all the stuff he would have to do after leaving Jez -  and before being seen by the Smiths - then after that having to carry on to the beach(?) dispose of the body and get back  -  there simply isn't enough time to fit it all in.    Remember before he left he would have had to arrange with JT to lie about seeing him with Jez, and that would involve him having to describe the scene to her - so that she could remember when she told the police.  All the others would have to agree to be on it  - to back JT's story up.      Apparently he also ate a 3 course meal after he left Jez - and changed his clothes before he left to dispose of the body.

If you think it was possible then feel free to convince me Icab - but with a few believable timelines.











 

I am not trying to convince anyone of anything Benice,  I am merely stating the facts

The only independent witnesses who recall seeing Gerry McCann before Madeleine was reported missing are Jeremy Wilkins,  who saw him at about 9.15pm outside the McCann apartment ...  and Mr and Mrs Smith who saw him making his  way in the direction of the beach at about 10pm

Those are the facts

[Chinagirl]

Pointless discussing with those who wilfully close their minds ...

[Carana]

My point was,  that whilst  NO  independent witnesses say Gerry McCann was at the table at 10pm  ...  two independent witnesses   (  Mr and Mrs Smith )   say he was  NOT,     (  they say he passed them at around 10pm,  as he made his way in the direction of the beach with a child matching Madeleine's description in his arms )

Mr Smith and his wife say that they almost certainly saw Gerry McCann making his way towards the beach at around 10pm,  with a child exactly matching Madeleine's description,  in his arms

You may choose to disbelieve Mr and Mrs Smith  ...  but you certainly cannot say that the evidence they provided does not exist

I am not trying to convince anyone of anything Benice,  I am merely stating the facts

The only independent witnesses who recall seeing Gerry McCann before Madeleine was reported missing are Jeremy Wilkins,  who saw him at about 9.15pm outside the McCann apartment ...  and Mr and Mrs Smith who saw him making his  way in the direction of the beach at about 10pm

Those are the facts

How do you infer that from what Martin Smith actually said?

In relation to the video clips of Gerard McCann and the person I saw on 3rd May 2007 when I saw the BBC news at 10 PM on 9th September 2007 something struck me that it could have been the same person. It was the way Gerard McCann turned his head down which was similar to what the individual did on 3rd May 2007 when we met him. It may have been the way he was carrying the child either. I would be 60-80% sure that it was Gerard McCann that I met that night carrying a child. I am basing that on his mannerism in the way he carried the child off the plane. After seeing the BBC news at 10 PM, footage on the 9th September 2007 I contacted Leicestershire police with this information. During that time I spoke to all my family members who were with me on the night of 3rd May 2007 about this and the only one who felt the same way as me was my wife. She had seen the video clip of Gerard McCann walking down the stairs of the plane earlier that day. We did not discuss this until some days later.
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http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm

[Carana]

We have Martin Smith's subsequent statement identifying Gerry McCann with 60-80% certainty and we have Aoife Smith's statement which says (about the man carrying the child):

And we have this picture of Gerry McCann:


How many men could have been walking around PDL with a 60-80% resemblence to Gerry McCann and wearing (unusual) trousers for which there is a photo on file of Gerry McCann wearing the exact same trousers carrying a child?

Is there anything in particular that you find unusual about those trousers?

[stephen25000]

Pointless discussing with those who wilfully close their minds ...

Closed minds ?

You only believe in abduction !

[ferryman]

From the statement of Martin Smith's revelatory moment ...

 During that time I spoke to all my family members who were with me on the night of 3rd May 2007 about this and the only one who felt the same way as me was my wife.

As I've pointed out before, and make no apology for repeating, among those to disagree with Mr Smith was his daughter Aofe, an astute and assured observer of what the Smiths all saw that night.

[stephen25000]

From the statement of Martin Smith's revelatory moment ...

 During that time I spoke to all my family members who were with me on the night of 3rd May 2007 about this and the only one who felt the same way as me was my wife.

As I've pointed out before, and make no apology for repeating, among those to disagree with Mr Smith was his daughter Aofe, an astute and assured observer of what the Smiths all saw that night.

Heard that old potato before.

So what makes Mr. Smith wrong and his daughter right ?