Author Topic: The evidence places Gerry McCann in the tapas bar at 10pm  (Read 196260 times)

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Online Wonderfulspam

Re: The evidence places Gerry McCann in the tapas bar at 10pm
« Reply #675 on: October 18, 2013, 04:32:10 PM »
Just caught up with 46 pages - which seems to have went nowhere

The only point I would make - is that in any investigation of this type - I would have thought that placing the three suspects at the time exact movements - and I mean exact would have been one of the most important lines of the  investigation  - I mean critical - along side forensics .

Are we really to believe that the PJ really didn't nail this point down . They might not have a lot to go on without a body or forensics - but at least they can without doubt have the time line and where the chief suspects are down to minutes

I know that witnesses do not always give the same answer to the  same question - ie show two people a scene and you will get different answers the next day BUT

I just cannot believe that the PJ would not have exhausted  all the fac ts about where Gerry was at the critical time of 9.15 - 10.15

If his whereabouts was so vague - why on earth would the final report state they knew where he was at the critical time  - IF the PJ can get such a critical fact wrong it just beggars belief

I appreciate the timeline was fluid at the time - but come on - whatever Amaral  and his team might be - they were not completely incompetent to this extent

They would have spoken face to face with all the  staff  directly . If a hole that big in  a time line such as Gerry being missing long enough  to disappear and hide a body that never ever was found - I I just don't get it


"I know that witnesses do not always give the same answer to the  same question - ie show two people a scene and you will get different answers the next day BUT

I just cannot believe that the PJ would not have exhausted  all the fac ts about where Gerry was at the critical time of 9.15 - 10.15"


Thats part of the reason why they were asked to take part in a reconstitution
Christian Brueckner Fan Club

Offline south of the river

Re: The evidence places Gerry McCann in the tapas bar at 10pm
« Reply #676 on: October 18, 2013, 04:45:53 PM »

"I know that witnesses do not always give the same answer to the  same question - ie show two people a scene and you will get different answers the next day BUT

I just cannot believe that the PJ would not have exhausted  all the fac ts about where Gerry was at the critical time of 9.15 - 10.15"


Thats part of the reason why they were asked to take part in a reconstitution

sure I get that - but come on the PJ cant say oh the suspects didn't do a reconstruction so really are at a bit of a loss

They must have gone through all statements and timelines in intimate detail in the incident room - I mean thats what police do - don't they - they are the closest to everything - surely they didn't have to wait for a reconstruction  to help them

It seems to me that sometime this reconstruction is held up as the reason / blame for everything to do with this case

Online Wonderfulspam

Re: The evidence places Gerry McCann in the tapas bar at 10pm
« Reply #677 on: October 18, 2013, 04:59:41 PM »
sure I get that - but come on the PJ cant say oh the suspects didn't do a reconstruction so really are at a bit of a loss

They must have gone through all statements and timelines in intimate detail in the incident room - I mean that's what police do - don't they - they are the closest to everything - surely they didn't have to wait for a reconstruction  to help them

It seems to me that sometime this reconstruction is held up as the reason / blame for everything to do with this case

Kate & Gerry couldn't  even specify what door was locked,which door they walked in or out of, which shutters were open or closed or indeed wether Madeleine was in her bed or on it.
Their statements contradict each other in various places, the McCanns & their group misled the PJ, trying to untangle the truth from their lies is a difficult task.  No one has managed it yet.
Christian Brueckner Fan Club

Offline jassi

Re: The evidence places Gerry McCann in the tapas bar at 10pm
« Reply #678 on: October 18, 2013, 04:59:54 PM »
If the PJ had done a reconstruction using substitutes, they would have always been open to the charge that they had done it wrong and misunderstood what had been said in statements.
Look at how details were fleshed out and  altered in the rogatory statements compared with the original statements.

Only by having the Tapas people on the spot could they have demonstrated what was and was not possible in the events of that evening.
I believe everything. And l believe nothing.
I suspect everyone. And l suspect no one.
I gather the facts, examine the clues... and before   you know it, the case is solved!"

Or maybe not -

OG have been pushed out by the Germans who have reserved all the deck chairs for the foreseeable future

Offline Benice

Re: The evidence places Gerry McCann in the tapas bar at 10pm
« Reply #679 on: October 18, 2013, 05:24:46 PM »
If the PJ had done a reconstruction using substitutes, they would have always been open to the charge that they had done it wrong and misunderstood what had been said in statements.
Look at how details were fleshed out and  altered in the rogatory statements compared with the original statements.

Only by having the Tapas people on the spot could they have demonstrated what was and was not possible in the events of that evening.

How could anyone, actors or the group and Jez Wilkins carry out an accurate reconstruction when apart from Gerry, they could only give approximate times of their movements.    JW said he spoke to Gerry for between 3 to 5 mins.   So which time would he 'reconstruct' - 3 minutes? 4 minutes? or 5 minutes?     

All the others have the same problem except for Gerry who knew that it was 9.04 when he left to make a check.   IMO it simply isn't possible for 10 people to guarantee an accurate physical reproduction of their movements that night by way of a reconstruction.     The only one who could be certain he was leaving the table at the same time as he did on the 3rd May was Gerry at 9.04. 

However, SY have conducted a forensic analysis of the timelines and are satisfied that there was clearly opportunity there for Madeleine to have been removed from 5A.    So the absence of a physical recon is not a problem as far as SY are concerned.

The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline pathfinder73

Re: The evidence places Gerry McCann in the tapas bar at 10pm
« Reply #680 on: October 18, 2013, 05:25:39 PM »
Where are the police interviews with Gerry McCann? I can't find them at the mccannfiles.com
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Redblossom

  • Guest
Re: The evidence places Gerry McCann in the tapas bar at 10pm
« Reply #681 on: October 18, 2013, 05:28:24 PM »
Where are the police interviews with Gerry McCann? I can't find them at the mccannfiles.com

Go  to the top of this forum, click on reports and documents, click on official police files, click on the link which gives all statements alphabetically with clickable links

Ps you were asking where Jez stayed, he was in block G4, the one to the left here, G5 on the right is where the Mccanns stayed

Second picture of post at 6.49 pm
http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic179-10.html

He says in his statement his flat was about 50 metres away from theirs
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 05:32:29 PM by Redblossom »

Offline pathfinder73

Re: The evidence places Gerry McCann in the tapas bar at 10pm
« Reply #682 on: October 18, 2013, 05:40:47 PM »
Thanks. I will start here on the Gerry McCann statement:
Immediately the group rapidly went to the club, "searched all the accommodations/lodgings,   swimming pool, tennis courts, etc. and the apartment, with the help of staff "at the same time that they contacted the authorities who would come to put in an appearance."

At the same time they contacted the authorities? Does he mean the police who were contacted at 10.40pm? Quite a bit later than 10pm when the searching began.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline south of the river

Re: The evidence places Gerry McCann in the tapas bar at 10pm
« Reply #683 on: October 18, 2013, 05:45:50 PM »
that's why you interview again and again until the most realistic  facts emerge - If someone is mistaken you check .It is how you pick up discrepancies and then lies - it is how cases are broken

So we are left to believe that the PJ got a whole load of discrepancies from the major players and some weak statements from the staff that would allow at least a half hour window where no one knew where Gerry was and it was just either left hanging and then they decided to just tidy up the final report anyway

doesn't seem right to me - they must have been a lot clearer on the  movements than that

Offline Sherlock Holmes

Re: The evidence places Gerry McCann in the tapas bar at 10pm
« Reply #684 on: October 18, 2013, 05:49:50 PM »
Kate & Gerry couldn't  even specify what door was locked,which door they walked in or out of, which shutters were open or closed or indeed wether Madeleine was in her bed or on it.
Their statements contradict each other in various places, the McCanns & their group misled the PJ, trying to untangle the truth from their lies is a difficult task.  No one has managed it yet.

Exactly. So why would anyone rely on Gerry and Kates' accounts of the degrees to which an internal door was ajar at various stages of the evening on which to construct a theory about the timeline? There's nothing to go on.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: The evidence places Gerry McCann in the tapas bar at 10pm
« Reply #685 on: October 18, 2013, 05:50:18 PM »
Fiona Payne said Gerry wasn't there when she arrived to see Kate in the apartment at around 10.05pm. Gerry was outside. So who else had seen him at this time? Going from the other 3 Dave, Matt and Russell - only Russell who said possibly he was which is I don't know. Those 3 got together and went searching.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 05:54:07 PM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: The evidence places Gerry McCann in the tapas bar at 10pm
« Reply #686 on: October 18, 2013, 08:55:04 PM »
Aoife Smith:
 Around 22H00, they left Kelly's Bar. The group headed, on foot, for their apartment.
— Questioned, she responds that she knows the time that they left because her father and her brother decided to leave early that night. There were two reasons for this: one was the fact that her sister-in-law was not feeling very well and the other was because her brother, sister-in-law, nephew and son of her sister-in-law finished their holiday the next day and had to catch the morning flight returning to Ireland.
— Upon leaving the bar, they turned right and headed along the road for 40/50 metres. At this point, they again turned to the right and ascended a small street with stairs that give access to Rua 25 de Abril. As they were a large group (four adults and five children) they travelled apart from each other along the street with some more to the front and the others more behind. She does not remember how they were divided [who was where].
— The deponent remembers that upon reaching the top of the stairs, she looked to her left and saw a man (1) with a female child (2) in his arms, walking along the pavement of Rua 25 de Abril. He was walking in her direction at a distance of, give or take, two metres.
— The deponent crossed to the other side of Rua 25 de Abril and began walking up Rua da Escola Primária in the direction of the Estrela da Luz apartment complex.
— She did not see if the referenced individual with the child descended Rua das Escadinhas or if he continued along Rua 25 de Abril.
— It was the first time she saw that man. She does not remember seeing him at any time in any location.
— She has seen photographs of Madeleine McCann and thinks that it could have been her. Asked, she said she was 60% certain.
— The individual's gait was normal, between a fast walk and a run. He did not look tired, moving in a manner usual when one carries a child.
— (2) the child was female because she had straight long hair to the neck. The colour was fair/light brown.
— She is certain that the child was about four years old because her niece (who was in the group) is of the same age and they were the same size.
— She did not see the child's face because she was lying against the individual's left shoulder in a vertical position against the individual. She appeared to be sleeping. Her arms were suspended along her body and were not around the individual's neck. She did not look at the child's hands and cannot state the colour of her skin. She believes she was white.
— There was nothing covering the child, a comforter/blanket or any other piece of clothing but she only saw her back.
— She was wearing light trousers, white or light pink, that may have been pyjamas. She does not remember if they were patterned as it was dark. The material was lightweight/thin and could have been cotton.
— She also had a light top, with long sleeves. She did not see it well because the individual had his arms around the child. She is not sure if the child's top was the same colour as her trousers, saying only that it was very light. The fabric was the same as the trousers.
— Questioned regarding the shoes, she responded that she did not remember seeing any shoes, not remembering if the child had any or not.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 09:04:58 PM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: The evidence places Gerry McCann in the tapas bar at 10pm
« Reply #687 on: October 18, 2013, 11:24:33 PM »
Statement from: Emma Louise KNIGHT

 Occupation: Hotel Manager
 Date: 30th April 2008

At about 22.17 I received a call from Lyndsey Johnson, the creche Manager, informing me that the girl had gone missing. I met Lyndsey and the Service Manager, Amy Tierney, near to the Tapas Bar and we initiated the 'Mark Warner procedures for the search of a missing child'.

I was told who the missing girl was and at the beginning of the procedure went to the McCann's apartment to obtain the girl's description and of the clothes she was wearing when she disappeared. When I arrived at the apartment, there was a lady on the terrace, whom I now know to be Kate McCann, accompanied by the wife of one of her friends, David Payne. Kate could not say a word, looked very upset and about to cry. It was Mrs Payne who provided me with the details that I needed.

I returned to the location where the leaflets were being distributed and passed on the information that I had gathered about the missing girl. Lyndsey was busy with the distribution of the leaflets and I went to search in the beach area. On my return I passed by the Duke Pub where I met other members of staff who also joined in the searches.

The hotel manager, John Hill arrived at the location from which the searches were being organised and I can confirm that he called the police. John stayed at the location and I several times went to search the grounds. I went with Amy and we searched the highest part of the complex behind the apartments. The search lasted for about 10 minutes and then we returned. At that moment John asked me to go to the apartment the girl had disappeared from and, on behalf of Mark Warner, provide all the help the family might need.

I went to the McCann's apartment, entered by the patio doors and introduced myself to Kate and Mrs Payne. I entered the apartment living room and Kate and Mrs Payne stayed in the main bedroom, from where I could hear them both crying.

The twins were still asleep in the children's bedroom and the door was half open.

A short while later, Gerry returned to the apartment accompanied by Russell. They also entered by the patio doors.

Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: The evidence places Gerry McCann in the tapas bar at 10pm
« Reply #688 on: October 18, 2013, 11:38:46 PM »
If Gerry was outside searching from 10pm then it would be foolish to rule him out of the Smith family sighting? Aoife Smith said they left Kelly's bar at 10pm and was sure on the time so that would conclude that they passed the suspect after 10pm. Those 5 mins here and there at around 10pm could be crucial to the investigation.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 11:43:28 PM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Apostate

Re: The evidence places Gerry McCann in the tapas bar at 10pm
« Reply #689 on: October 20, 2013, 11:06:24 AM »
If Gerry was outside searching from 10pm then it would be foolish to rule him out of the Smith family sighting? Aoife Smith said they left Kelly's bar at 10pm and was sure on the time so that would conclude that they passed the suspect after 10pm. Those 5 mins here and there at around 10pm could be crucial to the investigation.

It would surely only take 5 minutes to walk from the apartment to the location of Smithman.