Dog Alerts- Evidence or not?

[Icanhandlethetruth]

Jolly well done on the Google thingy.  Did you Google it?

However, it could have been Casey's Mother or Father who did that.  They all used that computer.  And Casey often wasn't there in the house.

Meanwhile A Cadaver Dog found something suspicious by the swimming pool which might have been Urine because Cadaver Dogs react to Urine.  Oh Really.

In the end Casey Anthony was acquitted.

Google is your friend. But I did remember it as well.

I asked for this cite before about Cadaver dogs reacting to urine, you said at the time you had the cite but didn't want to give it to me.

She was indeed acquitted.

[Eleanor]

Google is your friend. But I did remember it as well.

I asked for this cite before about Cadaver dogs reacting to urine, you said at the time you had the cite but didn't want to give it to me.

She was indeed acquitted.

Wrong.  I don't do Cites because I can't be bothered.

However, Cadaver Dogs do react to Urine and a few other body fluids.  But I don't want to go into that because it is all a bit too yucky for me.

[Mr Gray]

Google is your friend. But I did remember it as well.

I asked for this cite before about Cadaver dogs reacting to urine, you said at the time you had the cite but didn't want to give it to me.

She was indeed acquitted.

It seems urine contains cadaverine....so its reasonable for the dogs to react to it

[Icanhandlethetruth]

It seems urine contains cadaverine....so its reasonable for the dogs to react to it

Not really, IMO a dog would be no use if he routinely alerted to urine, any bathroom would produce an alert, us men are not the most accurate as I am sure you know Davel.
I have never seen it claimed by a handler, that's why I would like to see the cite if possible.

[Eleanor]

Not really, IMO a dog would be no use if he routinely alerted to urine, any bathroom would produce an alert, us men are not the most accurate as I am sure you know Davel.
I have never seen it claimed by a handler, that's why I would like to see the cite if possible.

Sperm.  Grime said that. 

 

[Icanhandlethetruth]

Sperm.  Grime said that. 

 

Eleanor I am sure you are aware sperm is not urine.

[Eleanor]

Eleanor I am sure you are aware sperm is not urine.

Sperm like Urine is a body fluid.

[Icanhandlethetruth]

Sperm like Urine is a body fluid.

So is saliva and blood, body fluids,  you claimed someone testified that dogs alert to urine, I have never seen this and would like to.

[Mr Gray]

Not really, IMO a dog would be no use if he routinely alerted to urine, any bathroom would produce an alert, us men are not the most accurate as I am sure you know Davel.
I have never seen it claimed by a handler, that's why I would like to see the cite if possible.

Urine contains cadaverine.. The dog will alert to the smallest amount.. Semen contains cadaverine.. All that is factual.

I dont see why its unreasoble to make the conclusion that dogs wil alert to both of these. Do you have a cite they don't

This is what makes the alerts themselves unreliable.

Are there any published articles to show dogs will not alert to urine. I don't believe there is. If dog handlers want their alerts to be taken seriously they should. Grime is not a scientist and from a scientific perspective his validation is very sloppy.

[Icanhandlethetruth]

Urine contains cadaverine.. The dog will alert to the smallest amount.. Semen contains cadaverine.. All that is factual.

I dont see why its unreasoble to make the conclusion that dogs wil alert to both of these. Do you have a cite they don't

This is what makes the alerts themselves unreliable.

Are there any published articles to show dogs will not alert to urine. I don't believe there is. If dog handlers want their alerts to be taken seriously they should. Grime is not a scientist and from a scientific perspective his validation is very sloppy.

I have read that it is a mix of cadaveric voc's that make up the odour of a dead body, not just cadaverine.
You are quite welcome to believe cadaver dogs alert to urine and semen and whatever else makes you happy.
For me its not complicated, a dog is trained on a certain odour and if he thinks he smells that odour he barks. Thats it. In most cases where a dog has barked a body is found later in the investigation or that person is never found. I could reel off dozens of cases where cadaver dogs have alerted and a body has turned up later or that person is never seen again. Is it fool proof, of course not, dogs will make mistakes just as humans do, but it is used as evidence in at least some countries of the world.

[misty]

Not really, IMO a dog would be no use if he routinely alerted to urine, any bathroom would produce an alert, us men are not the most accurate as I am sure you know Davel.
I have never seen it claimed by a handler, that's why I would like to see the cite if possible.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/265513330_Cadaver_dogs_Unscientific_myth_or_reliable_biological_devices

*snipped*
 The forensic team involved in crime scene investigations, especially in cases where it may be necessary to identify hidden objects or invisible traces, is increasingly integrated with the use of trained dog units to search for decomposing human odors. The cadaver dogs are used to detect and localize hidden human remains or fluids (blood, urine, etc.) due to the high perception of the canine olfactory system and the relative facility with which dogs can be trained and managed (Riezzo et al. 2014). ...


The full citation is available to download (I haven't read it)


May I apologise to you for making you incur the wrath of our Mods because of a question I asked which led the thread off-topic. I didn't think the Seiders case warranted a thread of its own.
Suffice to say Grime was allowed to testify at the trial and his dogs' alerts accepted as evidence. However, I think that his testimony proved of greater benefit to the defence than the prosecution if you believe that the fragments in the fireplace really were human bones. I wonder what happened to the rest of the body?

[Mr Gray]

I have read that it is a mix of cadaveric voc's that make up the odour of a dead body, not just cadaverine.
You are quite welcome to believe cadaver dogs alert to urine and semen and whatever else makes you happy.
For me its not complicated, a dog is trained on a certain odour and if he thinks he smells that odour he barks. Thats it. In most cases where a dog has barked a body is found later in the investigation or that person is never found. I could reel off dozens of cases where cadaver dogs have alerted and a body has turned up later or that person is never seen again. Is it fool proof, of course not, dogs will make mistakes just as humans do, but it is used as evidence in at least some countries of the world.

I think you are easily fooled and lack understanding about evidence.
So there are countless alerts where bodies are later found or thee person has never been found. Do you think that has anything to do with the fact that the dogs are only taken to crime scenes where someone has disappeared and death is highly probable.. Lol
I wasn't born yesterday..

[Icanhandlethetruth]

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/265513330_Cadaver_dogs_Unscientific_myth_or_reliable_biological_devices

*snipped*
 The forensic team involved in crime scene investigations, especially in cases where it may be necessary to identify hidden objects or invisible traces, is increasingly integrated with the use of trained dog units to search for decomposing human odors. The cadaver dogs are used to detect and localize hidden human remains or fluids (blood, urine, etc.) due to the high perception of the canine olfactory system and the relative facility with which dogs can be trained and managed (Riezzo et al. 2014). ...


The full citation is available to download (I haven't read it)


May I apologise to you for making you incur the wrath of our Mods because of a question I asked which led the thread off-topic. I didn't think the Seiders case warranted a thread of its own.
Suffice to say Grime was allowed to testify at the trial and his dogs' alerts accepted as evidence. However, I think that his testimony proved of greater benefit to the defence than the prosecution if you believe that the fragments in the fireplace really were human bones. I wonder what happened to the rest of the body?

Yes sorry Misty I didn't mean to throw you under the bus or dob on you to the higher powers I just thought I would point it out.
I do enjoy engaging you in discussion because its always well thought out, reasoned and never gets nasty. Two people can have differing views and still remain civil I believe.
I don't think Grimes alerts added too much to the mixture but I still believe the evidence was strong enough even without the alerts to gain a conviction. I should point out that all 3 expert witnesses including one for the defence testified that the remains were human, I have no idea long it would take to burn a body but maybe 3 days is enough.

[Mr Gray]

I have read that it is a mix of cadaveric voc's that make up the odour of a dead body, not just cadaverine.
You are quite welcome to believe cadaver dogs alert to urine and semen and whatever else makes you happy.
For me its not complicated, a dog is trained on a certain odour and if he thinks he smells that odour he barks. Thats it. In most cases where a dog has barked a body is found later in the investigation or that person is never found. I could reel off dozens of cases where cadaver dogs have alerted and a body has turned up later or that person is never seen again. Is it fool proof, of course not, dogs will make mistakes just as humans do, but it is used as evidence in at least some countries of the world.

Its not a matter of belief its a matter of evidence and there is next to nothing to support cadaver dog alerts

[Icanhandlethetruth]

I think you are easily fooled and lack understanding about evidence.
So there are countless alerts where bodies are later found or thee person has never been found. Do you think that has anything to do with the fact that the dogs are only taken to crime scenes where someone has disappeared and death is highly probable.. Lol
I wasn't born yesterday..

Yes this is of course the main reason, but in most cases the police don't know if someone has died or not.
I am not proposing that dogs be sent to random locations on the off chance someone died there.
I think you are easily fooled and lack understanding about evidence.