Dog Alerts- Evidence or not?

[pathfinder73]

Not very helpful in terms of locating verifiable evidence, though, is it?

That is by Martin Grime - he is the expert who trained the dogs so he will know what they can do and Eddie can discover very hard to find evidence that forensics can miss!

The search of a suspect's 'totally burnt out vehicle' by forensic scientists did not reveal any evidence.
A 'one minute' search by the EVRD identified a position in the rear passenger footwell where the dog alerted to the presence of human material.
A sample was taken and when analysed revealed the victim's DNA.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

[Billy Whizz Fan Club]

No, not at all.

I presume that he would indeed react to dried blood, if any was physically there. My point is that Grime stressed that Keela would only react to a physical presence of it, whereas he didn't say the same about Eddie.

Anyway, the bottom line is still that the dog alerts were intelligence assets to assist in finding evidence... but in this case there wasn't any.

Of course there was evidence. Many samples from "stains" were collected.  Swab 3a contained DNA from three people and all the DNA markers for MM were present. However the FSS were unable or unwilling to try to separate out the three contributors thus 19 out of 37 markers is "inconclusive" - between them the three contributors could also have possibly had all of the 19 markers unique to MM.

What surprised me at the time was why K and G immediately attempted to rubbish the dogs rather than accepting that somehow someone may have been injured in the apartment.

Dr Perlin claims he has the technology to better analyse swab 3a and separate out the individual contributors.

[Carana]

Of course there was evidence. Manner samples from "stains" were collected.  Swab 3a contained DNA from three people and all the DNA markers for MM were present. However the FSS were unable or unwilling to try to separate out the three contributors thus 19 out of 37 markers is "inconclusive" - between them the three contributors could also have possibly had all of the 19 markers unique to MM.

What surprised me at the time was why K and G immediately attempted to rubbish the dogs rather than accepting that somehow someone may have been injured in the apartment.

Dr Perlin claims he has the technology to better analyse swab 3a and separate out the individual contributors.

Oh no, not Perlin again.

And I think you're confusing the flat and the car.

[Billy Whizz Fan Club]

Oh no, not Perlin again.

And I think you're confusing the flat and the car.

I don’t think so. Swab 3a is from the flat and had 19 DNA markers in common with MM... As far as I can remember one swab from the boot of the car had 15 DNA markers in common with MM.

[Robittybob1]

I don’t think so. Swab 3a is from the flat and had 19 DNA markers in common with MM... As far as I can remember one swab from the boot of the car had 15 DNA markers in common with MM.

You need to check your facts Billy.  Your numbers are misleading IMO.

[Billy Whizz Fan Club]

You need to check your facts Billy.  Your numbers are misleading IMO.

Yeah sorry...

Swab 3a from under the tile: "An incomplete DNA result was obtained from cellular material on the swab 3a. The swab contained very little information and showed low level indications of DNA from more than one person. However, all of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Madeline McCann.

And swab from boot of Renault: A complex LCN DNA result which appeared to have originated from at least three people was obtained from cellular material recovered from the luggage compartment section 286C 2007 CRL10 (2) area 2. Within the DNA profile of Madeline McCann there are 20 DNA components represented by 19 peaks on a chart. At one of the areas of DNA we routinely examine Madeleine has inherited the same DNA component from both parents; this appears therefore as 1 peak rather than 2, hence 19 rather than 20. Of these 19 components 15 are present within the result from this item; there are 37 components in total. There are 37 components because there are at least 3 contributors; but there could be up to five contributors. In my opinion therefore this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation/inclusion.

Why - ...

Well lets look at the question that is being asked

"Is there DNA from Madeline on the swab "

It would be very simple to say "yes" simply because of the number of components within the result that are also in her reference sample.

What we need to consider, as scientists, is whether the match is genuine and legitimate; because Madeline has deposited DNA as a result of being in the car or whether Madeline merely appears to match the result by chance. The individual components in Madeline's profile are not unique to her, it is the specific combination of 19 components that makes her profile unique above all others. Elements of Madeline's profile are also present within the the profiles of many of the scientists here in Birmingham, myself included. it's important to stress that 50% of Madeline's profile will be shared with each parent. It is not possible in a mixture of more than two people, to determine or evaluate which specific DNA components pair with each other. Namely, we cannot separate the components out into 3 individual DNA profiles.

Therefore, we cannot answer the question: is the match genuine or is it a chance match"

I'm not sure why 37 markers means there must ne at least three contributors - rather than at least two... but that's an aside. I was attempting to dispel the forum myth that "no evidence was collected". The fact is that evidence was collected and tested. The results inconclusive.... but many years down the line and we have an offer from Dr Perlin who appears to believe he can make a conclusive analysis and separate out the individual contributors.

[Robittybob1]

Billy there can only be a max of 2 alleles per loci, so if on testing there were 4 alleles identified that could be four or three individuals or two persons if they found two from each of them.  You can only be sure if there are 20 alleles from the 10 sites (2 per each) and that would be 1 person identified.

[Mr Gray]

Yeah sorry...

Swab 3a from under the tile: "An incomplete DNA result was obtained from cellular material on the swab 3a. The swab contained very little information and showed low level indications of DNA from more than one person. However, all of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Madeline McCann.

And swab from boot of Renault: A complex LCN DNA result which appeared to have originated from at least three people was obtained from cellular material recovered from the luggage compartment section 286C 2007 CRL10 (2) area 2. Within the DNA profile of Madeline McCann there are 20 DNA components represented by 19 peaks on a chart. At one of the areas of DNA we routinely examine Madeleine has inherited the same DNA component from both parents; this appears therefore as 1 peak rather than 2, hence 19 rather than 20. Of these 19 components 15 are present within the result from this item; there are 37 components in total. There are 37 components because there are at least 3 contributors; but there could be up to five contributors. In my opinion therefore this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation/inclusion.

Why - ...

Well lets look at the question that is being asked

"Is there DNA from Madeline on the swab "

It would be very simple to say "yes" simply because of the number of components within the result that are also in her reference sample.

What we need to consider, as scientists, is whether the match is genuine and legitimate; because Madeline has deposited DNA as a result of being in the car or whether Madeline merely appears to match the result by chance. The individual components in Madeline's profile are not unique to her, it is the specific combination of 19 components that makes her profile unique above all others. Elements of Madeline's profile are also present within the the profiles of many of the scientists here in Birmingham, myself included. it's important to stress that 50% of Madeline's profile will be shared with each parent. It is not possible in a mixture of more than two people, to determine or evaluate which specific DNA components pair with each other. Namely, we cannot separate the components out into 3 individual DNA profiles.

Therefore, we cannot answer the question: is the match genuine or is it a chance match"

I'm not sure why 37 markers means there must ne at least three contributors - rather than at least two... but that's an aside. I was attempting to dispel the forum myth that "no evidence was collected". The fact is that evidence was collected and tested. The results inconclusive.... but many years down the line and we have an offer from Dr Perlin who appears to believe he can make a conclusive analysis and separate out the individual contributors.

i seem to remembe rther ecould have been up to 5 contributors and according to the report some of Madeleines markers were quite common and shared by many people. we also have the added complication that the mix could contain DNA from her family that could potentially include all her markers.

we also have the situation now where the portuguese are refusing to allow retesting of dna by the other two investigating police forces

[Carana]

I don’t think so. Swab 3a is from the flat and had 19 DNA markers in common with MM... As far as I can remember one swab from the boot of the car had 15 DNA markers in common with MM.

An incomplete DNA result was obtained from cellular material on the swab 3a. The swab contained very little information and showed low level indications of DNA from more than one person. However, all of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Madeline McCann. LCN DNA profiling is highly sensitive it is not possible to attribute this DNA profile to a particular body fluid.

There is no evidence to support the view that Madeline MCCann contributed DNA to the swab 3B.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm

Re the car, one trace did have 15 alleles, but in a mixed sample of 37 from 3-5 contributors, in a vehicle rented several weeks after she'd disappeared.

[Billy Whizz Fan Club]

Billy there can only be a max of 2 alleles per loci, so if on testing there were 4 alleles identified that could be four or three individuals or two persons if they found two from each of them.  You can only be sure if there are 20 alleles from the 10 sites (2 per each) and that would be 1 person identified.

Thanks 😊

[Billy Whizz Fan Club]

An incomplete DNA result was obtained from cellular material on the swab 3a. The swab contained very little information and showed low level indications of DNA from more than one person. However, all of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Madeline McCann. LCN DNA profiling is highly sensitive it is not possible to attribute this DNA profile to a particular body fluid.

There is no evidence to support the view that Madeline MCCann contributed DNA to the swab 3B.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm

Re the car, one trace did have 15 alleles, but in a mixed sample of 37 from 3-5 contributors, in a vehicle rented several weeks after she'd disappeared.

Indeed - the evidence that was collected was found to be "inconclusive" in terms of identifying for sure the DNA of MM. Science moves forward though and we do now have claims that a conclusive analysis is attainable.

[Mr Gray]

Indeed - the evidence that was collected was found to be "inconclusive" in terms of identifying for sure the DNA of MM. Science moves forward though and we do now have claims that a conclusive analysis is attainable.

yes it seems the portuguese police dont want to release any samples they hold

[Billy Whizz Fan Club]

yes it seems the portuguese police dont want to release any samples they hold

Are there any still held in the UK?

[Mr Gray]

Are there any still held in the UK?

it seems both Uk and German police want to retest samples held by the Portuguese but the portuguese have refused permission

[barrier]

yes it seems the portuguese police dont want to release any samples they hold

The fss tested them did they not,is the FSS being called into question ?