White House Farm - ITV Drama Series - Part 2

[Eleanor]

It was you who brought into it that Bamber wouldn’t have had much luck with you because  he  looked like your first husband which points to you being influenced by a suspect’s looks .

Did I say that I would have convicted him on that score?

Don't try Semantics with me.  I am so much better at it than you are.

PS.  Are you stalking me?  If so then take it back to The McCann Forum.

[Snowgirl]

Did I say that I would have convicted him on that score?

Don't try Semantics with me.  I am so much better at it than you are.

PS.  Are you stalking me?  If so then take it back to The McCann Forum.

So explain what you meant by “ not much luck   “  if not that you would convict him .
  Why would I want to stalk you of all people ?
As for telling me where to go .  More than a touch of Anne Robinson there but you’ve obviously not noticed I quit there quite a long time ago .Guess why .

[Eleanor]

When is The Silencer going to appear?  I lost track of that so can anyone help?

[Myster]

When is The Silencer going to appear?  I lost track of that so can anyone help?

In one, some or all of the next four episodes.  But to whet your appetite, it was found by David Boutflour in the under-stairs gun cupboard in Nevill's Office/Den.  Would Sheila have crawled on her hands and knees to get five more bullets when there was a plentiful supply of thirty on the kitchen worktop?...

[Myster]

To make things a little clearer...

Bamber claimed that he emptied an almost full box of Eley .22 bullets onto the kitchen worktop, before loading the Anschutz magazine and going outside to shoot some rabbits.  He returned having fired none, but unclipped the magazine, removed a bullet from the breach and inserted it back in the magazine, then placed it on the settle (in the Scullery photo) and leaned the Anschutz up against the wall, butt down, next to it.  A full box can hold no more than fifty bullets.  Twenty five in total were used in the shooting, which means that there should have been no more than twenty-five remaining on the worktop.  But thirty were found and photographed there by DC Bird.  When questioned about this discrepancy, Bamber had no answer.

[barrier]

Don't make me laugh.  This was over thirty years ago.  And anyway 2 out of 12 is a doubt.  When did they bring that one in?

Whats 30 yrs ago got to do with the majority verdict.

The killers of Margaret Fleming were convicted on a majority not a unanimous verdict,nothing new it seems.

[barrier]

To make things a little clearer...

Bamber claimed that he emptied an almost full box of Eley .22 bullets onto the kitchen worktop, before loading the Anschutz magazine and going outside to shoot some rabbits.  He returned having fired none, but unclipped the magazine, removed a bullet from the breach and inserted it back in the magazine, then placed it on the settle (in the Scullery photo) and leaned the Anschutz up against the wall, butt down, next to it.  A full box can hold no more than fifty bullets.  Twenty five in total were used in the shooting, which means that there should have been no more than twenty-five remaining on the worktop.  But thirty were found and photographed there by DC Bird.  When questioned about this discrepancy, Bamber had no answer.

Its a strange choice of gun to go rabbiting with,its usually a twelve bore.

[Caroline]

To make things a little clearer...

Bamber claimed that he emptied an almost full box of Eley .22 bullets onto the kitchen worktop, before loading the Anschutz magazine and going outside to shoot some rabbits.  He returned having fired none, but unclipped the magazine, removed a bullet from the breach and inserted it back in the magazine, then placed it on the settle (in the Scullery photo) and leaned the Anschutz up against the wall, butt down, next to it.  A full box can hold no more than fifty bullets.  Twenty five in total were used in the shooting, which means that there should have been no more than twenty-five remaining on the worktop.  But thirty were found and photographed there by DC Bird.  When questioned about this discrepancy, Bamber had no answer.

Well, not one he could express. The rifle must have already had 5 bullets loaded - which shows that the rabbit story is rubbish.

[Nicholas]

Its a strange choice of gun to go rabbiting with,its usually a twelve bore.

Excerpts courtesy of Gunfire Graffiti - THE WHITE HOUSE FARM MURDERS – BAMBER or CAFFELL January 11, 2020

‘Sheila Caffell never voiced or displayed any interest in firearms or shooting. If she had and if only to fulfil a plan to kill her family maintaining a secret shooting pursuit in the UK would have been extremely difficult. There was certainly evidence that Sheila Caffell had a rudimentary experience of firing a shotgun but that does not qualify someone to purposefully and individually operate it or any other firearm. It has also been implied that because she was brought up in a rural farming family, she would learn how to handle firearms. That is a very common, urban inspired myth and likened to supposing a Merchant Sea Captain’s daughter is skilled at deep sea fishing and tying knots. Sheila Caffell would have needed to have been able to do the following, quickly and confidentially.

Magazine charging / Loading / Making ready

Unless she had acquired extra magazines, (which were never found), she would have to be able to charge a single magazine 3 times with a total of 25 x .22 bullets. Load the rifle, (attach the charged magazine into the magazine housing). Make ready, (withdraw the cocking handle to the rear and let it go – the bolt assembly flies forward under spring tension and picks the top round off the magazine and feeds it into the breech. This also cocks the internal hammer. The process of making a semi-auto rifle ready, (loaded and cocked to fire), is not natural, it takes practise. The natural inclination of the inexperienced shooter is to keep hold of the cocking handle and guide it forward. This will generally fail to pick up a round and will result in a misfeed. The analogy here is when we learn to allow an open car bonnet to drop the last couple of feet to enable it to lock. It’s not natural…but we only learn after we are initially shown.

Placing fired rounds with no hesitation or mercy

She was able to remove the safety and then very confidently bring the weapon to bear, (this is where removing the scope was so important). Firing and placing rounds into shouting, flailing, pleading human frames at close range would require some cold composure; despite being a schizophrenic, physically weak and uncoordinated. Her proprioceptive skills and co-ordination here was truly remarkable, she found her target on every attempt, not one round missed.

Sheila Caffell’s suicide or murder

She then returned to her parent’s bedroom, laid down turned the rifle around and shot herself in the throat, planning to discharge a bullet through her palate and into her brain. She failed but despite the shock and pain of that attempt she managed to realign the weapon again and on the second attempt successfully killed herself. She had accounted for her rounds perfectly and had had a single round left for her own departure but when she failed to kill herself she reloaded the rifle having conveniently access to one further round and finished the job. So with all this in mind she had been able to count her rounds in the most peculiar circumstances. Now having killed herself she had even left the weapon “safe”; no rounds in the chamber or magazine. She didn’t even take her own life in her son’s bedroom as her ex husband Colin Caffell had pointed out and insisted she would have done if she had ever resorted to something so diabolical.

Counting rounds, being acutely aware of ammunition expenditure, timing reloads etc are drills practised by the military and armed police. In the heat of a live murderous shooting, this slightly built, physically weakened schizophrenic became a hideous Lara Croft; she was remarkable.

http://gunfire-graffiti.co.uk/the-white-house-farm-murders-caffel-or-bamber/

[Takeshi]

Oh, and Aunt Agatha, if you're watching, Michael Winner was a maker of FANTASY films and never made one about Jeremy Bamber.  You should really avoid being taken in by Teskowski's BS.

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0935382/

I believe she is referring to this series:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0103571/?ref_=ttfc_fc_tt

Season 1 Episode 2 The Village Murders Aired 6 Jun. 1992

If it does include a reconstruction with Sheila being found in the kitchen, I would like to see it. It then begs the question where did Winner get that idea from in 1992? Was it mentioned in COLP 1991?

[barrier]

Excerpts courtesy of Gunfire Graffiti - THE WHITE HOUSE FARM MURDERS – BAMBER or CAFFELL January 11, 2020

‘Sheila Caffell never voiced or displayed any interest in firearms or shooting. If she had and if only to fulfil a plan to kill her family maintaining a secret shooting pursuit in the UK would have been extremely difficult. There was certainly evidence that Sheila Caffell had a rudimentary experience of firing a shotgun but that does not qualify someone to purposefully and individually operate it or any other firearm. It has also been implied that because she was brought up in a rural farming family, she would learn how to handle firearms. That is a very common, urban inspired myth and likened to supposing a Merchant Sea Captain’s daughter is skilled at deep sea fishing and tying knots. Sheila Caffell would have needed to have been able to do the following, quickly and confidentially.

Magazine charging / Loading / Making ready

Unless she had acquired extra magazines, (which were never found), she would have to be able to charge a single magazine 3 times with a total of 25 x .22 bullets. Load the rifle, (attach the charged magazine into the magazine housing). Make ready, (withdraw the cocking handle to the rear and let it go – the bolt assembly flies forward under spring tension and picks the top round off the magazine and feeds it into the breech. This also cocks the internal hammer. The process of making a semi-auto rifle ready, (loaded and cocked to fire), is not natural, it takes practise. The natural inclination of the inexperienced shooter is to keep hold of the cocking handle and guide it forward. This will generally fail to pick up a round and will result in a misfeed. The analogy here is when we learn to allow an open car bonnet to drop the last couple of feet to enable it to lock. It’s not natural…but we only learn after we are initially shown.

Placing fired rounds with no hesitation or mercy

She was able to remove the safety and then very confidently bring the weapon to bear, (this is where removing the scope was so important). Firing and placing rounds into shouting, flailing, pleading human frames at close range would require some cold composure; despite being a schizophrenic, physically weak and uncoordinated. Her proprioceptive skills and co-ordination here was truly remarkable, she found her target on every attempt, not one round missed.

Sheila Caffell’s suicide or murder

She then returned to her parent’s bedroom, laid down turned the rifle around and shot herself in the throat, planning to discharge a bullet through her palate and into her brain. She failed but despite the shock and pain of that attempt she managed to realign the weapon again and on the second attempt successfully killed herself. She had accounted for her rounds perfectly and had had a single round left for her own departure but when she failed to kill herself she reloaded the rifle having conveniently access to one further round and finished the job. So with all this in mind she had been able to count her rounds in the most peculiar circumstances. Now having killed herself she had even left the weapon “safe”; no rounds in the chamber or magazine. She didn’t even take her own life in her son’s bedroom as her ex husband Colin Caffell had pointed out and insisted she would have done if she had ever resorted to something so diabolical.

Counting rounds, being acutely aware of ammunition expenditure, timing reloads etc are drills practised by the military and armed police. In the heat of a live murderous shooting, this slightly built, physically weakened schizophrenic became a hideous Lara Croft; she was remarkable.

http://gunfire-graffiti.co.uk/the-white-house-farm-murders-caffel-or-bamber/

Thanks,I know full well about urban myths surrounding rural life.

The spent casing's, is it known if these were found in situ and correlated with the shooting pattern?

[Eleanor]

Thanks,I know full well about urban myths surrounding rural life.

The spent casing's, is it known if these were found in situ and correlated with the shooting pattern?

Yes.  But apparently this wasn't pursued as rigorously as it should have been.

PS.  I am only answering this because better informed people haven't.

[Holly Goodhead]

To make things a little clearer...

Bamber claimed that he emptied an almost full box of Eley .22 bullets onto the kitchen worktop, before loading the Anschutz magazine and going outside to shoot some rabbits.  He returned having fired none, but unclipped the magazine, removed a bullet from the breach and inserted it back in the magazine, then placed it on the settle (in the Scullery photo) and leaned the Anschutz up against the wall, butt down, next to it.  A full box can hold no more than fifty bullets.  Twenty five in total were used in the shooting, which means that there should have been no more than twenty-five remaining on the worktop.  But thirty were found and photographed there by DC Bird.  When questioned about this discrepancy, Bamber had no answer.

It has never been concluded whether 25 or 26 bullets were discharged which gives some idea of the state of play at soc and pathological evidence.  Furthermore some of the casings had been loaded on a previous occasion evidenced by marks made by inserting them into the magazine.  Given the experts were unable to determine how many shots were fired at victims and explain the markings why would you expect JB to be able to account for the above?  And there's no evidence that WHF operated on the basis of a place for everything and everything in its place.  For all anyone knows NB might have had a pile of cartridges on his desk from emptying the magazine on a previous occasion(s) and the perp took from this location.  Or perp may have taken from elsewhere including the pile of ammo stored under the stairs. 

I don't believe the above featured at trial?   

[Holly Goodhead]

Thanks,I know full well about urban myths surrounding rural life.

The spent casing's, is it known if these were found in situ and correlated with the shooting pattern?

A soc reconstruction (which to date has not been carried out by experts: ballistics, pathologist, soc analyst) by way of blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks would absolve JB.

[barrier]

A soc reconstruction (which to date has not been carried out by experts: ballistics, pathologist, soc analyst) by way of blood stains, casings, distance of shots, trajectories and wound tracks would absolve JB.

IYO one presumes.