The phone call

[APRIL]

Absolutely, April

And as Holly rightly states, psychopathy doesn’t wax and wane, hence why he still feels no remorse.

Once a psychopath, always a psychopath.

I think it may be possible that, with advancing years perhaps removing the chance of demonstrating it, psychopathy may lessen. I don't, however, believe it falls off the spectrum.

[ISpyWithMyEye]

Spy, when you hold off on the emotion (and the rudeness which tends to emanate from it!!!) your posts make for interesting -and sometimes, excellent- reading.

I entirely concur with your evaluation re psychologists/psychiatrists. A psychologist has no more claim to being a psychiatrist than a lowly counselor can claim to be a psychologist, but they all have footholds in each other's camps, and they each have their place in the vast area of mental health.

Of interest is your comment about Holly's (over?) reliance on experts. Naturally, only those who support Jeremy's innocence. Other experts exist. My late partner was an expert witness. No one who used his services, ever lost their case. As his son said, of him, at his memorial celebration, "He was always right"............. Was he?

I'm fascinated by why such store is set by Jeremy's psychopathy -or otherwise!!- and and why Holly, for whom I have the greatest respect, refuses to contemplate any opinion which doesn't have a name or reference, and any verdict than Prof Egan's. It may simply be a way of devaluing/eradicating everything other than that which is in Jeremy's favour? I can fully see why it would be of importance, pre-trial, to assess his mental stability, but post trial, other than the routine assessments, which all prisoners are given, why would psychopathy matter, one way or the other, and why would it be necessary to go to the added expense of testing for it?

Jeremy Bamber has all the time in the world to hunt down professionals who will happily do a glowing report for the right amount of money.

The reason JB is clutching at this ridiculous straw, trying to make out he isn’t a psychopath, is that he wrongly thinks people will believe he didn’t murder his family. But people aren’t fools...they’d can see what he’s trying to do.

I don’t even like hypothesising that he could be innocent, because it’s perfectly clear to 99.9% of people that the evidence against him is absolutely overwhelming. But if he was innocent, he wouldn’t be paying a psychologist to test him for psychopathy as that doesn’t mean he’s innocent even if he wasn’t one. He’s just trying to manipulate people, and he’s highlighting how he has nothing whatsoever to even suggest he isn’t guilty.

A truly innocent man would be veering between crushing heartbreak, anger, and total despair. They wouldn’t be combing through half a million documents (if that number is correct...) trying to find a typo, or insignificant error to try and use as a technicality to get released.

It’s also telling why he hasn’t begged to be given the truth drug. My understanding is, that whilst they’re not admissible in the UK court of law, they’re far more accurate than polygraph tests.

Maybe Holly can answer that one... 

[ISpyWithMyEye]

I think it may be possible that, with advancing years perhaps removing the chance of demonstrating it, psychopathy may lessen. I don't, however, believe it falls off the spectrum.

Yes, I believe they mellow, as all people do with age

But they simply become mature psychopaths with the same lack of empathy and emotions. They tend not to murder later in life due to their physical, mental and emotional decline...

[ISpyWithMyEye]

Who would you suggest I rely on if not experts?

Prof Vincent Egan wasn't instructed by the defence.  He assessed JB in prison post trial so I assume was employed by the Home Office.

The Psychologist, Vincent Egan was instructed by Jeremy Bamber’s appeal team.

His findings made not a jot of difference, anyway...the appeal court threw the case out in under an hour.

[APRIL]

Yes, I believe they mellow, as all people do with age

But they simply become mature psychopaths with the same lack of empathy and emotions. They tend not to murder later in life due to their physical, mental and emotional decline...

But nonetheless, remain within the spectrum.

[ISpyWithMyEye]

Spy, when you hold off on the emotion (and the rudeness which tends to emanate from it!!!) your posts make for interesting -and sometimes, excellent- reading.

I entirely concur with your evaluation re psychologists/psychiatrists. A psychologist has no more claim to being a psychiatrist than a lowly counselor can claim to be a psychologist, but they all have footholds in each other's camps, and they each have their place in the vast area of mental health.

Of interest is your comment about Holly's (over?) reliance on experts. Naturally, only those who support Jeremy's innocence. Other experts exist. My late partner was an expert witness. No one who used his services, ever lost their case. As his son said, of him, at his memorial celebration, "He was always right"............. Was he?

I'm fascinated by why such store is set by Jeremy's psychopathy -or otherwise!!- and and why Holly, for whom I have the greatest respect, refuses to contemplate any opinion which doesn't have a name or reference, and any verdict than Prof Egan's. It may simply be a way of devaluing/eradicating everything other than that which is in Jeremy's favour? I can fully see why it would be of importance, pre-trial, to assess his mental stability, but post trial, other than the routine assessments, which all prisoners are given, why would psychopathy matter, one way or the other, and why would it be necessary to go to the added expense of testing for it?

That’s very interesting, April, that your late partner who was an expert witness, “was always right”. That’s precisely why people such as your late partner are in high demand from counsel for the defence: their reports are dynamite.


Jeremy Bamber has tried to get the very best to represent him, in fact, he demanded from the start that he be represented by the top QC (Napier) who’d recently got Jeremy Thorpe acquitted. Legal Aid at first refused him that, due to the high costs of employing him, but JB somehow managed to get Napier’s team to represent him — and that alone suggests he knew he was in a very tight corner. Had he been innocent he wouldn’t have needed the creme de la creme. In the event, despite having such a highly respected legal team representing him, he still got found guilty...which speaks volumes.

[APRIL]

That’s very interesting, April, that your late partner who was an expert witness, “was always right”. That’s precisely why people such as your late partner are in high demand from counsel for the defence: their reports are dynamite.


Jeremy Bamber has tried to get the very best to represent him, in fact, he demanded from the start that he be represented by the top QC (Napier) who’d recently got Jeremy Thorpe acquitted. Legal Aid at first refused him that, due to the high costs of employing him, but JB somehow managed to get Napier’s team to represent him — and that alone suggests he knew he was in a very tight corner. Had he been innocent he wouldn’t have needed the creme de la creme. In the event, despite having such a highly respected legal team representing him, he still got found guilty...which speaks volumes.

It also indicates his self belief and self importance, don't you think?

[Vertigo Swirl]

It isn't necessary to be a psychopath to carry out acts that cause harm to others.

Was Hitler diagnosed with psychopathy?  Dr Shipman?  Greedy and reckless bankers who brought the global economy to the brink of collapse in 2010?  Slave owners?  Those who rigged VW exhaust emissions?  Clergy who sexually abused children?  Jimmy Savile?

Yet Bamber is proven to have many of the other traits on the checklist of psychopathic traits, never mind the murders.

[Caroline]

There's no evidence JB has been diagnosed with psychopathy but this as a stand alone would not mean he wasn't responsible.  Likewise even if he was diagnosed with psychopathy this wouldn't mean as a stand alone that he was responsible.

At trial it was agreed by defence and prosecution that the perp was one of two: JB or SC.  Only one was put on trial and only one was tested for psychopathy.

Sheila wasn't a psychopath - she displayed NONE of the characteristics. This is beneath you Holly.

[Caroline]

I think it may be possible that, with advancing years perhaps removing the chance of demonstrating it, psychopathy may lessen. I don't, however, believe it falls off the spectrum.

I don't think kit lessens, the ability to display it may change with age but I doubt anyone who lacks empathy could grow some.

[Caroline]

Yet Bamber is proven to have many of the other traits on the checklist of psychopathic traits, never mind the murders.

I would say 'most'.

[APRIL]

I don't think kit lessens, the ability to display it may change with age but I doubt anyone who lacks empathy could grow some.

Good point. After so many years -a lifetime?- of living without it, it would come as on hell of a shock to find they had it!!!

[mrswah]

Sheila wasn't a psychopath - she displayed NONE of the characteristics. This is beneath you Holly.

I can't see where Holly is suggesting that Sheila was a psychopath.

[Brietta]

I can't see where Holly is suggesting that Sheila was a psychopath.

At trial it was agreed by defence and prosecution that the perp was one of two: JB or SC.  Only one was put on trial and only one was tested for psychopathy.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11235.msg581093#msg581093

The evidence did not indicate 'Murder Suicide' it very clearly indicated Murder ... in my opinion that sentence tells one quite a lot.

[ISpyWithMyEye]

It also indicates his self belief and self importance, don't you think?

Oh, absolutely, April!

Jeremy displays ALL the signs of psychopathy, just some of which are:

Self-importance
Grandiosity
Arrogance

The fact he felt entitled to the very best QC, despite taxpayers having to pay for it, shows not only his disregard for the law and  its people, but his sense of self-importance and sheer arrogance.

That’s typical of a psychopath.

He doesn’t care who he uses or treads on, just as long as he got the best. He feels entitled. In the same way he explained his reasoning for murdering his family to Julie — he said he was doing them a favour.

And 35 years later he’s still behaving as though HE’S been done wrong....