Zampo - The Full Story?

[Icanhandlethetruth]

So what you are, saying is that you are citing Acpo licensing as being some sort of guarantee but don't know what it entails

For somethings I have to place trust in the regulatory bodies that govern the areas of their responsibilities.
In this case I have to hold ACPO as a reliable verifier of competence in this matter.
Are you saying you don't hold them as reliable, if so why?

[Mr Gray]

For somethings I have to place trust in the regulatory bodies that govern the areas of their responsibilities.
In this case I have to hold ACPO as a reliable verifier of competence in this matter.
Are you saying you don't hold them as reliable, if so why?

You've started two threads on the dogs... Have you read Martin Grimes statement... Might be a good place to start.
I don't blindly place trust in any regulatory body... I like to have an opinion based on evidence... Not trust

Seeing the word anectdotal... Doesn't give me any trust. 

[Icanhandlethetruth]

You've started two threads on the dogs... Have you read Martin Grimes statement... Might be a good place to start.
I don't blindly place trust in any regulatory body... I like to have an opinion based on evidence... Not trust

So you do or don't trust ACPO? Any others goverment bodies that you don't trust,maybe DVLA or The Land Registry.
You posted as if you knew what licencing entails, you seem to have a lot of knowledge, please impart some on me so I can learn. I know what I know from Google but you may have some information I am unaware of.

[Mr Gray]

So you do or don't trust ACPO? Any others goverment bodies that you don't trust,maybe DVLA or The Land Registry.
You posted as if you knew what licencing entails, you seem to have a lot of knowledge, please impart some on me so I can learn. I know what I know from Google but you may have some information I am unaware of.

Have you read Martin Grimes statement.... You really should if you are going to post about the dogs

[Brietta]

Are you suggesting that Mark Harrison and Martin Grime collaborated with the PJ to fit up the McCanns?

Please refrain from this habit you have adopted of putting your absolute fantasy into my mouth.

Did I mention Martin Grime in this post ... NO! I did not.

Did I mention Mark Harrison ... NO! I did not.

Did I say they collaborated with the PJ to 'fit up' the McCanns ... NO! I did not particularly since I mentioned not both but Kate alone.

You really are going to have to stop and take a good look at this style of posting which you have adopted of fantasy misquoting another poster ... in my opinion you are breaking forum rules by your inaccurate and apparently disingenuous questions.

This is the last time I will complain to you about what you are doing ... future like infringements will be taken up the line.

[Icanhandlethetruth]

Have you read Martin Grimes statement.... You really should if you are going to post about the dogs

Yes I have read Martin Grime's statements. But they won't help me to glean the information you hold about APCO licencing that you deem them to be of a low standard. Please educate me

[Mr Gray]

Yes I have read Martin Grime's statements. But they won't help me to glean the information you hold about APCO licencing that you deem them to be of a low standard. Please educate me

The information is in his statement... The word anecdotal is in his statement... Did you not see it

[Brietta]

Yes I have read Martin Grime's statements. But they won't help me to glean the information you hold about APCO licencing that you deem them to be of a low standard. Please educate me

I rather think that the question arises to what Zampo's training and that of his trainer might have been to remain within the context of the thread title.

To that end I have posted one link in a previous post.

[Icanhandlethetruth]

I rather think that the question arises to what Zampo's training and that of his trainer might have been to remain within the context of the thread title.

To that end I have posted one link in a previous post.

The Sture Bergwell (Thomas Quick) case is surely one of the strangest around. It was a catalogue of errors and good intentions gone wrong from the beginning. The searches were more like an exercise in regression therapy with more psychiatrists and psychoanalysts present than police and investigators.
My own supposition on how Zampo became involved was that previously they had drained an entire lake in Norway looking for body parts of the 7 year old girl you mentioned previously and found nothing. After doing this they heard of the abilities of Zampo to find dead bodies beneath many metres of water and surmised that if he can smell a body through water imagine how good he would be to find bodies through a few inches of soil.
The problem with this was there were very few opportunities to false alert to other mammals and birds whilst searching a river or lake but when in a woodland the smell of dead animals was pervasive. His training wasn’t good enough to differentiate the odours he was locating and so alerted almost everywhere. I have no proof that this is what happen but it seems logical to me.

[Mr Gray]

I have noticed that on a lot of threads about the dog alerts that Zampo comes up often but do we know the whole story?

Zampo was an Australian kelpie breed dog and was trained in 1990 by John Sjoberg. He was trained to find drowned victims underwater. His trainer qualified as a military dog handler but he was self taught in the methods that he trained Zampo. From 1993 to spring of 1996 the police used a variety of police cadaver dogs from Norway and Finland. In this period none of these dogs alerted and the police were perplexed why the dogs weren’t confirming the very accurate confessions by Thomas Quick. Enter Zampo and straight away he started alerting. In fact on his first search he alerted to a place Quick had said he had buried two Somali teenagers but even before the search, it was confirmed that the two teenagers were in fact still alive. In spite of this the police kept using Zampo and he kept alerting everywhere. The police even set up a test for him with a pit with human remains and one without any and he failed this test also but still they kept using him.
Also Zampo never actually marked a point that Quick indicated as a site where a body had been. Quick never specified an exact location, Zampo was sent to search in the broad area Quick had suggested and after he alerted, the police officers would then tell Quick where the alert occurred and then the fantasy would continue. The police were so convinced by Quick's confessions that they almost turned a blind eye to Zampo's failings.

Make of this what you will but for me the point of all this is that not all cadaver dogs are of equal ability.

its quite simple....according to the experts...the alerts themselves should never be taken as evidence of anything....thats where the PJ went wrong

[Icanhandlethetruth]

The information is in his statement... The word anecdotal is in his statement... Did you not see it

IMO you have misinterpreted this paragraph from Martin Grime.

“Licensing is derived from anecdotal cases and is scenario based conducted
over a period of a week, twice annually, it is conducted utilising independent
A.C.P.O. authorised assessors. Continuation training is conducted on a daily
basis and includes simple scent discrimination testing to large scale scenario
based exercises.”

He doesn’t say anecdotal evidence he says anecdotal cases, i.e. they re-enact scenarios derived from anecdotal cases over the period of a week. They also do continuation training daily. They do this twice annually.
It doesn't mean they sit around and discuss anecdotes and then grant the licence for another year.

[Mr Gray]

IMO you have misinterpreted this paragraph from Martin Grime.

“Licensing is derived from anecdotal cases and is scenario based conducted
over a period of a week, twice annually, it is conducted utilising independent
A.C.P.O. authorised assessors. Continuation training is conducted on a daily
basis and includes simple scent discrimination testing to large scale scenario
based exercises.”

He doesn’t say anecdotal evidence he says anecdotal cases, i.e. they re-enact scenarios derived from anecdotal cases over the period of a week. They also do continuation training daily. They do this twice annually.
It doesn't mean they sit around and discuss anecdotes and then grant the licence for another year.

he doesnt say they re enact anything...you are making it up.

[Icanhandlethetruth]

he doesnt say they re enact anything...you are making it up.

Please read it again  “derived from anecdotal cases and is scenario based”.
You re-enact a scenario in a training exercise.

If I’m wrong how in your opinion do you imagine they do it based on the word anecdotal that you like to keep referencing.
 

[Brietta]

IMO you have misinterpreted this paragraph from Martin Grime.

“Licensing is derived from anecdotal cases and is scenario based conducted
over a period of a week, twice annually, it is conducted utilising independent
A.C.P.O. authorised assessors. Continuation training is conducted on a daily
basis and includes simple scent discrimination testing to large scale scenario
based exercises.”

He doesn’t say anecdotal evidence he says anecdotal cases, i.e. they re-enact scenarios derived from anecdotal cases over the period of a week. They also do continuation training daily. They do this twice annually.
It doesn't mean they sit around and discuss anecdotes and then grant the licence for another year.

Exactly what is going on here?  You don't seem to be too keen on discussing the topic of the thread which you initiated on Zampo.

From now on if there is no sensible or appropriate mention of Zampo ... I think it would be in order to deem posts Off Topic.

[Icanhandlethetruth]

Exactly what is going on here?  You don't seem to be too keen on discussing the topic of the thread which you initiated on Zampo.

From now on if there is no sensible or appropriate mention of Zampo ... I think it would be in order to deem posts Off Topic.

Brietta, with respect I posted a long post about Zampo less than an hour ago.
The other poster has hardly referenced the case, and indeed thinks I may have a hidden agenda on these boards . A bit of fairness please.