Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence

[Holly Goodhead]

Common Sense

I'm just going through the points you raised a few days ago re the David Bain case.  I've never been able to find any evidence re blood inside the silencer?  When I say evidence I mean references to such in official docs or even unofficial.

[Common sense]

Common Sense

I'm just going through the points you raised a few days ago re the David Bain case.  I've never been able to find any evidence re blood inside the silencer?  When I say evidence I mean references to such in official docs or even unofficial.

I've no idea where I read that tbh, maybe this forum?  My knowledge of the Bain case is less than I know about Bamber, and that isn't much! - perhaps this is an avenue for you to pursue. Get the gun test fired on some live pigs and see if there is back spatter... was that tried already or was it just powder burns they were looking for? I know the expert said further tests were needed but the CCRC turned their noses up.

Even if you shot 100 pigs and there was no backspatter, I can see the CoA saying that just because the case is unique in that regard, the likelihood of the blood flake originating from Sheila is still strong and the paint still proves the moderator was on the gun during the "struggle" I also wonder if backspatter could have been the only way blood could have entered the moderator and not just the most likely mechanism, the gun was pointed toward her neck where she was already bleeding after the first shot. Could a tiny drop have entered that way and been forced into the baffle by the gasses of the second shot being fired maybe?

In many ways, I would like to see Bamber retried with new experts who could explain all these things but I just can't see it happening.

[Caroline]

Yes, it's a shame. Although from my understanding, an absence wouldn't necessarily have proven anything if he had changed his clothes, had a shower, worn gloves etc - Such an absence might have impressed a jury however so perhaps it's not such a shame after all.

I mean before he changed his clothes etc. In other words - in an idea world.

[Common sense]

I mean before he changed his clothes etc. In other words - in an idea world.

In my ideal world, there would be digital phone records which would solve the case once and for all. I like to think they upgraded the exchange the week before and Bamber didn't realise there would be a records of all the calls and non calls.

Alternatively, Julie warns Nevill and he waits in the dark with his shotgun Tony Martin style.

[Holly Goodhead]

I've no idea where I read that tbh, maybe this forum?  My knowledge of the Bain case is less than I know about Bamber, and that isn't much! - perhaps this is an avenue for you to pursue. Get the gun test fired on some live pigs and see if there is back spatter... was that tried already or was it just powder burns they were looking for? I know the expert said further tests were needed but the CCRC turned their noses up.

Even if you shot 100 pigs and there was no backspatter, I can see the CoA saying that just because the case is unique in that regard, the likelihood of the blood flake originating from Sheila is still strong and the paint still proves the moderator was on the gun during the "struggle" I also wonder if backspatter could have been the only way blood could have entered the moderator and not just the most likely mechanism, the gun was pointed toward her neck where she was already bleeding after the first shot. Could a tiny drop have entered that way and been forced into the baffle by the gasses of the second shot being fired maybe?

In many ways, I would like to see Bamber retried with new experts who could explain all these things but I just can't see it happening.

I've never been able to find any info about blood inside the silencer. 

Some time ago I was on the Injustice Anywhere forum which is US domained and has members from across the globe.  One poster from NZ seemed to have been in involved with the DB case and claimed blood was found inside the silencer but when I pushed for evidence nothing was forthcoming.

[Holly Goodhead]

I've no idea where I read that tbh, maybe this forum?  My knowledge of the Bain case is less than I know about Bamber, and that isn't much! - perhaps this is an avenue for you to pursue. Get the gun test fired on some live pigs and see if there is back spatter... was that tried already or was it just powder burns they were looking for? I know the expert said further tests were needed but the CCRC turned their noses up.

Even if you shot 100 pigs and there was no backspatter, I can see the CoA saying that just because the case is unique in that regard, the likelihood of the blood flake originating from Sheila is still strong and the paint still proves the moderator was on the gun during the "struggle" I also wonder if backspatter could have been the only way blood could have entered the moderator and not just the most likely mechanism, the gun was pointed toward her neck where she was already bleeding after the first shot. Could a tiny drop have entered that way and been forced into the baffle by the gasses of the second shot being fired maybe?

In many ways, I would like to see Bamber retried with new experts who could explain all these things but I just can't see it happening.

Tests involving pigs have been used by forensic scientists to gauge the way blood behaves from a gunshot wound but I'm not aware of it being used in the Criminal courts?

There are actually far more sophisticated methods to determine whether or not drawback is possible with a given firearm, ammo and silencer.

[Nicholas]

I've never been able to find any info about blood inside the silencer. 

Some time ago I was on the Injustice Anywhere forum which is US domained and has members from across the globe.  One poster from NZ seemed to have been in involved with the DB case and claimed blood was found inside the silencer but when I pushed for evidence nothing was forthcoming.

Innocence fraud has been exposed in the US for some years now Holly - the UK are slowly catching up

What’s your take on innocence fraud on forensic science here in the UK?

https://csidds.com/2015/05/06/blowbacker-talks-about-over-some-1200-exonerations-as-innocence-fraud-no-surprise-audience-was-130-us-crime-lab-directors/

[Common sense]

Tests involving pigs have been used by forensic scientists to gauge the way blood behaves from a gunshot wound but I'm not aware of it being used in the Criminal courts?

There are actually far more sophisticated methods to determine whether or not drawback is possible with a given firearm, ammo and silencer.

I'm sure there are but it needs to be demonstrated that no back spatter would ever occur with the Anschutz and that there was no other mechanism that could explain the blood.

It would then need to be shown how a fabrication could have been achieved which I don't believe is as easy as some imagine.

As someone wise has said, even if the moderator was a fabrication it doesn't prove anything other than an attempt to bolster the case against the right man but as this stands, this is nothing more than a conspiracy theory. 

[ISpyWithMyEye]

Not at all. 

The prosecution used a lack of lead on SC's hands and lack of debris on her nightdress as evidence she hadn't fired the rifle.  When in actual fact a qualified forensic scientist would not expect to find either.

So when the EXPERT forensics and ballistics positively concluded that NO residue was on Sheila, are you saying they were all wrong, and 35 years later something’s popped up in your  head that shows they were wrong?

Do you thing the courts and appeal courts haven’t been through all that?

[Holly Goodhead]

Common Sense, I'm separating out our posts here so they're easier to respond to and others can join in if they wish.   

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11431.msg585732#msg585732

 

From Holly

The tests used at the time to examine blood groups were based on blood serology with 8% of the white British population sharing these groups ie it was impossible to say the blood originated from SC only that the flake matched her blood groups shared by many others including Robert Boutflour although I'm not suggesting he dobbed his own blood in there.

From Common Sense

So what are you suggesting? 8% of the population didn't handle the moderator and neither were they shot at the scene

[Caroline]

Tests involving pigs have been used by forensic scientists to gauge the way blood behaves from a gunshot wound but I'm not aware of it being used in the Criminal courts?

There are actually far more sophisticated methods to determine whether or not drawback is possible with a given firearm, ammo and silencer.

I am aware that they have used 'dead pigs' for various experiments but in order to do they above, they would have to use live pigs and I have been unable to find anything. on this.

What sophisticated methods?

[Holly Goodhead]

Common Sense, I'm separating out our posts here so they're easier to respond to and others can join in if they wish.   

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11431.msg585732#msg585732

 

From Holly

The tests used at the time to examine blood groups were based on blood serology with 8% of the white British population sharing these groups ie it was impossible to say the blood originated from SC only that the flake matched her blood groups shared by many others including Robert Boutflour although I'm not suggesting he dobbed his own blood in there.

From Common Sense

So what are you suggesting? 8% of the population didn't handle the moderator and neither were they shot at the scene

There's a strong inference the blood, the lab claimed to have found inside the silencer, originated from the shootings and more likely from SC than a combination of NB and June's blood but its not impossible it came to be there from some other method eg at the manufacturing stage or NB lending the rifle/silencer to a.n.other who unassembled to clean and caught self on wire brush.  Unlikely but not impossible.

The courts consider the blood/silencer the strongest aspect of the case.  Jurors queried the blood evidence with the judge and it seems they were under the impression the blood was a "perfect match" for SC's.

Page 12 of summing up

"Now I think that does complete the evidence of those experts, so it all comes down to this, does it not?  Mr Hayward says, "Well to begin with, merely analysing the blood inside the moderator, it correponds with Sheila Caffell's.

Page 13 of summing up

"then come to Mr Fletcher's evidence: "One of Sheila's wounds clearly was a contact wound", so that is entirely consistent with it being her blood in the end of the moderator".

Page 1, 2nd para of summing up/questions from jury

"We need to hear blood expert's evidence regarding the blood in the silencer, (a) a perfect match of Sheila's blood, (b) what was the chance of the blood group being June and Ralph's mixing together"

[Holly Goodhead]

I am aware that they have used 'dead pigs' for various experiments but in order to do they above, they would have to use live pigs and I have been unable to find anything. on this.

What sophisticated methods?

I think I recall finding something about live pigs used but live or dead how could this replicate an individuals physiology especially in this case when 2 gsw's are involved?  It is claimed the blood originated from the second upper fatal contact wound which may well mean the first lower non-fatal contact wound affected the physiology of the second.

[Holly Goodhead]

From Holly

If the blood flake was found inside the silencer as claimed by FSS it doesn't tell us how it came to be in there.  The prosecution alleging it was as a result of SC's contact gsw's doesn't mean it happened this way.

From Common Sense

The firearms expert gave his opinion of how it came to be in there.It was the most likely explanation.

[Holly Goodhead]

I think I recall finding something about live pigs used but live or dead how could this replicate an individuals physiology especially in this case when 2 gsw's are involved?  It is claimed the blood originated from the second upper fatal contact wound which may well mean the first lower non-fatal contact wound affected the physiology of the second.

I don't think this was one of the tests I read about in the past but here's one example:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/16/scientists-shot-pigs-in-head-to-study-blood-spatter-patterns