Author Topic: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence  (Read 135530 times)

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Offline Nicholas

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #90 on: May 05, 2020, 01:46:57 PM »
What about animals rights Holly?
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Caroline

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #91 on: May 05, 2020, 01:55:21 PM »
I think I recall finding something about live pigs used but live or dead how could this replicate an individuals physiology especially in this case when 2 gsw's are involved?  It is claimed the blood originated from the second upper fatal contact wound which may well mean the first lower non-fatal contact wound affected the physiology of the second.

I think what you might recall is David saying they should be used. This would never be allowed to happen and shouldn't - it would be cruel in the extreme.

It couldn't replicate anyway, the skin on a pig is much tougher.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #92 on: May 05, 2020, 02:15:29 PM »
What about animals rights Holly?

I'm not advocating such a test. 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #93 on: May 05, 2020, 02:20:10 PM »
I think what you might recall is David saying they should be used. This would never be allowed to happen and shouldn't - it would be cruel in the extreme.

It couldn't replicate anyway, the skin on a pig is much tougher.

No I read about live pig experiments before David emerged on the scene.

I've just posted one example but I don't think it was the one I read about which I think from memory involved a European country, maybe Germany or Italy.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/16/scientists-shot-pigs-in-head-to-study-blood-spatter-patterns

Anyway as I posted earlier I don't think it is capable of replicating SC's gsw's.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #94 on: May 05, 2020, 02:30:13 PM »
From Holly

If the blood flake was found inside the silencer as claimed by FSS it doesn't tell us how it came to be in there.  The prosecution alleging it was as a result of SC's contact gsw's doesn't mean it happened this way.

From Common Sense

The firearms expert gave his opinion of how it came to be in there.It was the most likely explanation.

457. Mr Fletcher, the firearms expert, gave evidence to explain how blood got into the moderator if it was attached, or into the barrel if there was no moderator attached. He said that the mechanism was complicated and not then fully appreciated. However, the expanding gas when the bullet left the muzzle was under normal circumstances distributed into the atmosphere. However with a contact shot there was no opportunity for this escape and the gas would follow the bullet into the wound as it expanded. Back pressure would then build up forcing the gas back out of the wound taking with it blood and tissue which would in effect be blasted back into the barrel if there was no moderator or into the moderator if one was attached. He said that even without direct contact, the same effect might occur but only if the gap between the end of the barrel, or the moderator if attached, and the skin was less than one millimetre. He said that the likelihood of such an occurrence was to an extent dependent on the part of the body to which the shot was delivered and the amount of blood present at that point.

458. If the shot to Shelia Caffell, which was a contact shot to the throat, had been fired without the moderator in place, he would have expected to find blood in the barrel of the gun. If the moderator was attached it was "virtually certain" that Sheila Caffell's blood would get into the moderator. There was, he said "a very slight possibility of it not happening, but very slight".


But the above contradicts with an internationally renowned expert in the pathology of gunshot wound, Dr Vincent Di Maio whose research in a book he authored is as follows:

Blood is more often detected on the outside of the muzzle than inside the barrel. In a study of 653 revolvers, 242 pistols, 181 shotguns, and 124 rifles used in suicides, blood was detected on the barrel 74% of the time for revolvers, 76% for pistols, 85% for shotguns, and 81% for rifles.' In contrast, blood was detected inside the barrel in 53% of the revolvers, 57% of pistols, 72% of shotguns, and 58% of rifles. The presence of blood inside the barrel of a gun indicates that the weapon was within a few inches of the body at the time of discharge. Absence of blood on or in the barrel does not preclude a close range or contact wound. Thus, no blood was found on either the outside or inside of the barrel in 24% of the suicides using a revolver and 23% using a pistol
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Common sense

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #95 on: May 05, 2020, 03:03:48 PM »
There's a strong inference the blood, the lab claimed to have found inside the silencer, originated from the shootings and more likely from SC than a combination of NB and June's blood but its not impossible it came to be there from some other method eg at the manufacturing stage or NB lending the rifle/silencer to a.n.other who unassembled to clean and caught self on wire brush.  Unlikely but not impossible.

The courts consider the blood/silencer the strongest aspect of the case.  Jurors queried the blood evidence with the judge and it seems they were under the impression the blood was a "perfect match" for SC's.

Page 12 of summing up

"Now I think that does complete the evidence of those experts, so it all comes down to this, does it not?  Mr Hayward says, "Well to begin with, merely analysing the blood inside the moderator, it correponds with Sheila Caffell's.

Page 13 of summing up

"then come to Mr Fletcher's evidence: "One of Sheila's wounds clearly was a contact wound", so that is entirely consistent with it being her blood in the end of the moderator".

Page 1, 2nd para of summing up/questions from jury

"We need to hear blood expert's evidence regarding the blood in the silencer, (a) a perfect match of Sheila's blood, (b) what was the chance of the blood group being June and Ralph's mixing together"

It was a perfect match, but yes, only to her blood group.

The 2002 appeal did raise some doubts about how the original flake was tested with it being suggested that it should have been ground into a powder to ensure it was mixed before being diluted instead of cut into 5 pieces. Mark Webster argued that Haywoods test could not be guaranteed to detect a mixture as opposed to a single source.

However, Mark Webster and Dr Lincoln agreed that the only way of Nevill and Junes blood being mistaken for Sheila's was the 'incomplete intimate mix' theory which Mr Haywood tried to perform tests to replicate. He theorised that the only mechanism for an incomplete mix was for other blood to mix with some that had already dried which was very unlikely given the lack of heat generated within the moderator and probable lack of drying time between June and Nevill being shot.

There were no examples in forensic literature to support such an event and Haywood performed tests on this theory with negative results. He was merely being careful by saying that there was a remote chance of the bloodflake originating from an incomplete mix.

It may have been a good idea for the defence to have advanced the possibility of contamination at the manufacturers, one would assume the baffles are pressed out by machine but assembled by hand. This possibility might be dismissed if NB or anyone else had cleaned the silencer since it was bought.

It is an interesting thought that Robert Boutflour may have cleaned the moderator with a wire brush but the moderator was quite new and bought with the gun AFAIK, I have no idea how often they would need cleaning or if NB wouldn't have just done this himself. 

In CALs book, there is a short passage that has RB losing his temper when cross examined on whether he had ever touched the moderator when it was found or had cuts on his hands while doing so. I dimly recall that RW also states that the defence was alive to RBs blood group match which is completely contrary to the CT claim that it wasn't known until 2002.  I've never seen a transcript of RBs exam/cross exam so don't know if RB was further questioned about ever disassembling and cleaning the moderator in the past.

In short, the chances of the bloodflake not originating from Sheila were remote. We also have no idea what the jury thought of there being human blood inside the silencer in the first place, no matter who it belonged to. Add in the paint and the jury must surely of had the reasonable assumption that the moderator was attached at some point and assessed the chances of Sheila looking for, attaching, using and then replacing the moderator back in the cupboard while in some kind of psychotic state.

Offline Nicholas

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #96 on: May 05, 2020, 03:23:11 PM »
SC Lomax
@SCLomax
Whose DNA was in the sound moderator? Sheila's wasn't but close female relative of Pamela Boutflour's was. 1/2
9:08 AM · May 2, 2020·Twitter for iPad

SC Lomax
@SCLomax
May 2
Replying to
@SCLomax
if Jeremy was guilty, Sheila's DNA should have been present. It wasn't. Appeal never considered DNA could be Ann Eaton's.


https://mobile.twitter.com/SCLomax/status/1256495762936127488
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #97 on: May 05, 2020, 03:52:21 PM »
Caro, a few days back you asked for the evidence re the lab carrying out tests by firing the rifle to determine the effect on the blood:

[attachment deleted by admin]
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #98 on: May 05, 2020, 03:58:43 PM »
SC Lomax
@SCLomax
Whose DNA was in the sound moderator? Sheila's wasn't but close female relative of Pamela Boutflour's was. 1/2
9:08 AM · May 2, 2020·Twitter for iPad

SC Lomax
@SCLomax
May 2
Replying to
@SCLomax
if Jeremy was guilty, Sheila's DNA should have been present. It wasn't. Appeal never considered DNA could be Ann Eaton's.


https://mobile.twitter.com/SCLomax/status/1256495762936127488

497. We, therefore, consider the matter on the basis that the conclusions to be drawn from the DNA evidence are:

i) June Bamber's DNA was in the sound moderator at the time of the DNA examination;

ii) Sheila Caffell's DNA may have been in the sound moderator but it was not possible to conclude one way or the other whether it was; and

iii) there was evidence of DNA from at least one male.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Myster

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #99 on: May 05, 2020, 05:29:14 PM »
No I read about live pig experiments before David emerged on the scene.

I've just posted one example but I don't think it was the one I read about which I think from memory involved a European country, maybe Germany or Italy.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/16/scientists-shot-pigs-in-head-to-study-blood-spatter-patterns

Anyway as I posted earlier I don't think it is capable of replicating SC's gsw's.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/279990681_Simulating_backspatter_of_blood_from_cranial_gunshot_wounds_using_pig_models

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.994.3860&rep=rep1&type=pdf

Backspatter from a live pig's head, p.91 and 92...


[attachment deleted by admin]
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Common sense

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #100 on: May 05, 2020, 06:03:02 PM »
457. Mr Fletcher, the firearms expert, gave evidence to explain how blood got into the moderator if it was attached, or into the barrel if there was no moderator attached. He said that the mechanism was complicated and not then fully appreciated. However, the expanding gas when the bullet left the muzzle was under normal circumstances distributed into the atmosphere. However with a contact shot there was no opportunity for this escape and the gas would follow the bullet into the wound as it expanded. Back pressure would then build up forcing the gas back out of the wound taking with it blood and tissue which would in effect be blasted back into the barrel if there was no moderator or into the moderator if one was attached. He said that even without direct contact, the same effect might occur but only if the gap between the end of the barrel, or the moderator if attached, and the skin was less than one millimetre. He said that the likelihood of such an occurrence was to an extent dependent on the part of the body to which the shot was delivered and the amount of blood present at that point.

458. If the shot to Shelia Caffell, which was a contact shot to the throat, had been fired without the moderator in place, he would have expected to find blood in the barrel of the gun. If the moderator was attached it was "virtually certain" that Sheila Caffell's blood would get into the moderator. There was, he said "a very slight possibility of it not happening, but very slight".


But the above contradicts with an internationally renowned expert in the pathology of gunshot wound, Dr Vincent Di Maio whose research in a book he authored is as follows:

Blood is more often detected on the outside of the muzzle than inside the barrel. In a study of 653 revolvers, 242 pistols, 181 shotguns, and 124 rifles used in suicides, blood was detected on the barrel 74% of the time for revolvers, 76% for pistols, 85% for shotguns, and 81% for rifles.' In contrast, blood was detected inside the barrel in 53% of the revolvers, 57% of pistols, 72% of shotguns, and 58% of rifles. The presence of blood inside the barrel of a gun indicates that the weapon was within a few inches of the body at the time of discharge. Absence of blood on or in the barrel does not preclude a close range or contact wound. Thus, no blood was found on either the outside or inside of the barrel in 24% of the suicides using a revolver and 23% using a pistol

On the face of it, it would seem wrong and possibly misleading to the jury but I wouldn't say that was completely contradictory and it may be that information has evolved over time and was not that which was available to Mr Fletcher in 1986.I'm also assuming the defence expert did not challenge Fletchers evidence in this regard.
 
Those statistics don't include a moderator either, (which, I believe would actually decrease the chances of backspatter entering the weapon) but to repeat my earlier point, dramatically changing the picture the jury were painted would need backspatter eliminated altogether which those stats do not.

Worth also noting that the bloodflake wasn't the only blood in/on the silencer but to the best of my knowledge the rest was in quantities too small to be tested for blood grouping at that time, I believe it was determined that some was animal blood and some human but I'm not sure. 

The jury were not asked to assess the chances of backspatter entering the moderator in isolation, there was human blood present, matched to Sheila and no other likely explanations were put forward. 

Offline Common sense

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #101 on: May 05, 2020, 06:16:44 PM »
SC Lomax
@SCLomax
Whose DNA was in the sound moderator? Sheila's wasn't but close female relative of Pamela Boutflour's was. 1/2
9:08 AM · May 2, 2020·Twitter for iPad

SC Lomax
@SCLomax
May 2
Replying to
@SCLomax
if Jeremy was guilty, Sheila's DNA should have been present. It wasn't. Appeal never considered DNA could be Ann Eaton's.


https://mobile.twitter.com/SCLomax/status/1256495762936127488

That man is either a blatant liar or just not very bright. He slags off the CT but then acts as though he is part of them, appealing to those who find a conspiracy fantasy more interesting and believable than the actual evidence.

Ann Eaton was alive and well and I'm sure would have given her DNA for the process of elimination, just as she gave a piece of SCs nail found in her jewellery box. The close relative of PB was June, 17 out of 20 bands for Sheila were found and anyway, Bamber is still furious with Mark Webster for being honest with the court about the DNA tests being useless.

I'm going with liar, but not a very bright one.

Offline mrswah

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Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #102 on: May 05, 2020, 06:50:40 PM »
That man is either a blatant liar or just not very bright. He slags off the CT but then acts as though he is part of them, appealing to those who find a conspiracy fantasy more interesting and believable than the actual evidence.

Ann Eaton was alive and well and I'm sure would have given her DNA for the process of elimination, just as she gave a piece of SCs nail found in her jewellery box. The close relative of PB was June, 17 out of 20 bands for Sheila were found and anyway, Bamber is still furious with Mark Webster for being honest with the court about the DNA tests being useless.

I'm going with liar, but not a very bright one.

Scott Lomax used to work with the CT, but has not done so since 2011.

Offline Caroline

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #103 on: May 05, 2020, 06:54:05 PM »
Caro, a few days back you asked for the evidence re the lab carrying out tests by firing the rifle to determine the effect on the blood:

Cheers but I can#t remember why I asked now  @)(++(*

Offline Common sense

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #104 on: May 05, 2020, 08:01:54 PM »
Scott Lomax used to work with the CT, but has not done so since 2011.

It was actually a copy of his book that brought me back to a case that I had more or less forgotten since having the murder casebook magazine and a couple of reads of Roger Wilkes over 20 years ago.

I think I paid £1.50 for it and still felt ripped off.