Author Topic: Anthony Pargeter's guns - total confusion  (Read 522 times)

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Online Robittybob1

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Anthony Pargeter's guns - total confusion
« on: June 22, 2020, 08:08:36 PM »
There seems to be so many variations as to what where and who had Anthony Pargeter's guns.  I wonder if the combined intellect of the Forum can work it out.

That book I was reading last night had real interesting stuff in it, to the point I was wondering where this information was coming from, is it just made up?
Blood Relations: The Definitive Account of Jeremy Bamber and the White House ...
By Roger Wilkes
I was Googling <bamber Chief Supt Harris> and the first result was that book by Roger Wilkes.   About 1/10th is still able to be read, and he goes on about how there were two identical Anschutz 525 Guns at WHF, one owned by the Bambers and the other by Anthony Pargeter.   That IMO would mean that the magazines for both guns would be interchangeable.

I had previously read that AP's gun had 2 magazines a 5 and a 10, and we know Bamber's magazine held 10 cartridges, add all that up and one gets 25, the number of cartridges fired that night all from Anschutz 525 guns???
This was different information than I had previously read. I don't think it is the case that magazines from .22 guns would be interchangeable between all .22 calibre rifles.


What other versions of information do we get from other sources and from AP himself?
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Re: Anthony Pargeter's guns - total confusion
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2020, 09:42:24 PM »
Extract from CoA:

"Relevant events before 7 August 1985 21. Anthony Pargeter, Nevill Bamber's nephew and a competition standard shot, stayed at White House Farm between 26-28 July 1985. He saw the .22 rifle in the gun cupboard in the ground floor office. The telescopic sights and sound moderator were attached and the gun appeared in a "new" condition. There were no scratches or marks upon it. Later the appellant, himself a good shot, took the rifle out for some target practice."
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4860.msg175136#msg175136

Exact wording ""21. Anthony Pargeter, Nevill Bamber's nephew and a competition standard shot, stayed at White House Farm between 26-28 July 1985. He saw the .22 rifle in the gun cupboard in the ground floor office. The telescopic sights and sound moderator were attached and the gun appeared in a "new" condition. There were no scratches or marks upon it. Later the appellant, himself a good shot, took the rifle out for some target practice."
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Re: Anthony Pargeter's guns - total confusion
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2020, 09:43:47 PM »
"at trial Anthony Pargeter claimed that as far as marksmanship was concerned, there was very little difference between them."  [them being Anthony and Jeremy]
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1054.msg30068#msg30068
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Re: Anthony Pargeter's guns - total confusion
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2020, 09:53:03 PM »
Holly's post: 
"I think its a myth the soc wasn't preserved.  As far as I can see everything was recorded and preserved as it should have been?  DS Jones initiated the burning not JB.  Afaik this was restricted to the twins beds and bedding and offered nothing by way of evidence.  Its disappointing the police didn't seize the silencer before they handed the keys over late afternoon on 9th Aug.  Anthony Pargeter phoned EP on 8th Aug and voiced his concerns over the silencer ie that he had recently seen it attached.  On morning of 9th Aug relatives visited EP and again raised the silencer.  On 8th Aug the police arranged for JB to make a further statement covering the silencer and I ask myself why EP didn't check this out before handing the keys over? "

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7923.msg382913#msg382913

Interesting that AP is trying to get the EP to look for the silencer on the 8th.
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Re: Anthony Pargeter's guns - total confusion
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2020, 10:13:15 PM »
Myster's post:
"The rifle in your photo looks a different one to the actual murder weapon held by PC Whiddon -

1). The short cylindrical front-sight hood is missing. (arrowed)

2). The stock where his right hand is holding the rifle doesn't look damaged, (arrowed) although it's just as difficult
      to see any damage in the Whiddon photo.

If this photo was taken on the 7th. August 1985 why is a moderator fitted, when it was only discovered days later by David Boutflour?
Could this be Anthony Pargeter's Anschütz rifle?"




Myster seems to accept AP had an Anschutz rifle! He asks: "Could this be Anthony Pargeter's Anschütz rifle?"

In another post Myster (http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6514.msg260326#msg260326) has this to say: "Anthony Pargeter discovered the Bambers' newish Anschutz complete with moderator and telescopic sights alongside his own weapon in the gun cupboard, and I've no cause to disbelieve him. His was lying on the floor cased, and theirs propped with the butt on the floor, uncased next to it.

As it was referred to as a "gun cupboard" then it obviously was used to store weapons at some stage or other, and imo could easily contain a fully fitted-out Anschutz because the winders and additional normal treads of the stair continue to right as in the photo below and as drawn in the GF plan (S3)...

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=633.msg25947#msg25947"
« Last Edit: June 22, 2020, 10:31:26 PM by Robittybob1 »
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Re: Anthony Pargeter's guns - total confusion
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2020, 10:45:24 PM »
From: jackiepreece on March 05, 2013, 07:04:26 AM   http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1015.msg29679#msg29679

"The 2002 Appeal

Police records confirm that a total of three Parker Hale MM1-type sound moderators (SBJ/1; DB/1 and DRB/1) were seized by Essex Police in 1985. In preparation for the 2002 appeal, tests were carried out on one of the three moderators[9] to analyse DNA on the internal baffle plates. It is not known which of three was examined for the appeal[10]. The fact that all three moderators were mixed up and mislabelled by Essex Police caused confusion for many years, but it has now become clear which of the three was kept by the police after the trial, and which were returned to Jeremy’s cousins, Anthony Pargeter and David Boutflour.

The sound moderator retained by Essex Police was DNA tested by forensic experts working for the Criminal Cases Review Commission (CCRC) in 2001, revealing both male and female DNA on the internal baffle plates. The female DNA turned out to be a perfect match for June Bamber[11], even though her blood grouping of AK2-1 was not found inside the moderator in 1986. The results confirmed that the male DNA was not a match for Jeremy Bamber.

Giving a DNA Sample

The prosecution team tried to establish whether the sound moderator contained DNA matching Jeremy’s relatives, including David Boutflour, Robert Boutflour, Peter Eaton and Anthony Pargeter, all of whom had handled one or more of the sound moderators. With the exception of Anthony Pargeter, there is no evidence to suggest that the other male relatives agreed to provide DNA samples to be checked against the male DNA found inside the moderator[12]."




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Re: Anthony Pargeter's guns - total confusion
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2020, 10:49:23 PM »
Myster again: http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4035.msg156522#msg156522

"I don't think you'll have read "Blood Relations" being in the U.S., scipio. It's worth getting hold of a copy seeing as you're so interested in the case.

In short, Wilkes describes how Anthony Pargeter was at WHF one day, when Nevill and Jeremy were on their way to the fields to shoot vermin with their new Anschutz. In the meantime Anthony, after fitting a new sight to his own rifle went out around one of the barns to zero it in by firing at a piece of wood. He fired off at least four or five magazines, but wasn't satisfied with it being off target.

When Jeremy returned, Anthony asked him to try it out to see what he thought. He inserted a full magazine and shot all ten into the wooden target at twenty-five yards. Jeremy inspected the results and called out that he thought the rifle was firing correctly. (pg. 58)
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Re: Anthony Pargeter's guns - total confusion
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2020, 10:53:54 PM »
Dillon (guest): http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=711.msg22878#msg22878 
"As far as I know Nevill just had the one sister who had died, but I don't know when. Anthony Pargeter and his sister ( I don't know her name either but I have heard that she too has sadly died ) were Nevill's nephew and niece. I think that he was very good to them and they spent time at WHF during school holidays etc."

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Re: Anthony Pargeter's guns - total confusion
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2020, 11:17:15 PM »
Interesting article: http://gunfire-graffiti.co.uk/the-white-house-farm-murders-caffel-or-bamber/

"The single Anschutz magazine, or were there more.

If the perpetrator was Jeremy Bamber, he could have acquired 2 further Anschutz magazines at some point well before the killings took place and had a total of 30 rounds already loaded and available. One already in the house where he left it and an extra two on his person. To plan a killing in these circumstances with a single magazine would demand a great deal of confidence. It would require somebody with a clear plan who appreciated that whilst the .22 rifle was the best weapon available to them, it was not ideal. Compared to the shotguns it gave the greatest rate of fire but to be effective the perpetrator would have to get close to his victims and possibly use a lot of ammunition. The rifle and .22 ammunition kept in the house required a Firearms Certificate to buy, store and determine its use which was for vermin control. That was the responsibility of Nevill Bamber. It was his habit and ultimately his deadly mistake to allow this rifle and indeed his shotguns to be easily accessed within the property. In practise he should have had them all secured in locked gun cabinets when they weren’t in immediate use. This was a condition of his licence and he and only he should have had access to the keys. Neither Jeremy Bamber or Sheila Caffell had an FAC, (Firearms Certificate), but you don’t need one to purchase magazines; they are not part of the weapon’s determined operational mechanism, they are detachable supporting items. Nevill Bamber did not need to account for how many magazines were used with the rifle so Jeremy or Sheila could have them without his knowledge. The police could not deduce what ammunition was available before the murders because any amount of it could have been used for target or rabbit shooting."
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Re: Anthony Pargeter's guns - total confusion
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2020, 11:24:19 PM »
scipio_usmc post: http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4744.msg173751#msg173751

"Quote from: Myster on July 15, 2014, 09:49:57 PM
Unless as I said it was an older model which belonged to Anthony Pargeter. Didn't he also own one, and was surprised to see the new one belonging to the Bambers when he looked inside the gun cupboard, prior to the murders.  End quote.

scipio_usmc:  "AP had a bolt action BRNO."

A BRNO is an older type of Czech Republic made gun.
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Re: Anthony Pargeter's guns - total confusion
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2020, 11:34:57 PM »
old Wikipedia entry:
"The court heard that a screwdriver was needed to remove the sights, but they were normally left in place because it was time-consuming to realign them. Nevill's nephew, Anthony Pargeter, visited the farmhouse around 26 July 1985, and told the court he had seen the rifle with the sights and silencer attached in the gun cupboard in the ground floor office. Bamber testified that he visited the farmhouse on the evening of 6 August, and loaded the gun, thinking he heard rabbits outside, then left it with a full magazine and a box of ammunition on the kitchen table."

Well that was news to me that Jeremy left the gun on the kitchen table.   Do you believe that  the word I've seen before was "settle"  but I don't know what that word means.

It was a type of wooden bench to sit on. e.g 
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Re: Anthony Pargeter's guns - total confusion
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2020, 11:40:22 PM »
Adam's post: http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5521.msg197340#msg197340

"Ann Eaton testified that Jeremy had enquired to her and Anthony Pargeter about purchasing a five bullet shotgun. A month before the massacre. ..."
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Re: Anthony Pargeter's guns - total confusion
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2020, 12:44:09 AM »
What's all this mean? 
from the 2002 CoA document.


446. At one stage during his interview on 12 September 1985 DS Jones asked Mr Bamber to show him his hands, and he examined both the palms and the backs. He offered no explanation to the appellant as to why he had done this, but it seems highly likely that the stimulus for this action was a telephone call that appears to have been made on the previous day to the police by Anthony Pargeter, who was Nevill Bamber's nephew. He is said to have reported having seen small "circular scars" on Jeremy Bamber's right hand. This piece of information triggered a series of actions. By Action no. 96, on the 12 September 1985 DI Bright was instructed to take a further statement from Mr Pargeter on this matter. No result of this action is recorded, and no formal statement from Mr Pargeter appears in the documentation in the case. This may well be because of the other information that was forthcoming on the matter. By Action no. 97 of the same date DS Jones was instructed to interview the appellant on the same topic - and DS Jones' response referred to the notes of interview and reported that there were no marks visible.


"449. As has already been made clear, the prosecution case against the appellant was conducted on the basis that there was no sign of any injuries to his hand subsequent to the killings. The complaint that the prosecution had kept the defence in ignorance of material which would have permitted them to mount an attack on the veracity of Mr Pargeter is misconceived; there was never any necessity to mount any such attack. Mr Pargeter had never given any evidence which incriminated the appellant in any way. So far from the prosecution seeking to advance dubious evidence hostile to the appellant's interests, it appears that they were unwilling to advance any suggestions by Mr Boutflour or Mr Pargeter that they were not able to confirm for themselves to be soundly based. One of the more remarkable contentions in the appellant's skeleton argument on this topic is the assertion that the defence "were kept in ignorance of the fact of the officer's examination of the appellant's hands....". The appellant, of all people, plainly knew himself that that had happened."

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Re: Anthony Pargeter's guns - total confusion
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2020, 02:37:54 AM »
Myster's post in reply to Holly: http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10388.msg507825#msg507825

Re: Who killed Bambi ?
« Reply #174 on: December 20, 2018, 07:03:36 PM »

Quote from: Holly Goodhead on December 20, 2018, 06:39:39 PM
Which was no doubt referred to as the gun ie "Sheilas gone crazy shes got the gun" 8((()*/

I'm not aware JB had a zeroing-in session with AP?

No the open sights aka iron sights which are built into the rifle at manufacturing are perfectly good for shooting vermin at a wide range of distances.  JB was a marksman and no doubt when in the cadets/at Greshams/as a boy on the farm learned to shoot with open sights.

The fact a telescopic sight was fitted when purchased in Nov '84 and AP claimed it was fitted last weekend of July '85 isn't evidence it was routinely used.  Probably the only reliable source to confirm one way or the other would be NB.  Others who may have known are Jean Boutell the housekeeper and farm worker Len Foakes both of whom were regulars at WHF unlike AP.

AP was wrong about scars to JB's hand so it could be argued he was an unreliable witness
Sorry... AP's Anschutz wasn't new I don't think, only JB's.  But they had a session in the barn with a block of wood or something and AP said his own wasn't shooting accurately.  So JB fired a few rounds with it and found it was OK. In Wilkes, probably.

 Anthony Pargeter, Nevill Bamber's nephew and a competition standard shot, stayed at White House Farm between 26-28 July 1985. He saw the .22 rifle in the gun cupboard in the ground floor office. The telescopic sights and sound moderator were attached and the gun appeared in a "new" condition. There were no scratches or marks upon it. Later the appellant, himself a good shot, took the rifle out for some target practice.

 Why an unreliable witness?  He noticed JB's Anschutz in the cupboard as above.

The rifle was a .22 Anshutz automatic rifle. Together with a Parker Hale sound moderator (silencer) and telescopic sights, it had been bought by Nevill Bamber on 30 November 1984. 500 rounds of ammunition had also been purchased. There was evidence that the gun was used to shoot rabbits and would only ever be used with the sound moderator and the telescopic sights attached. A screwdriver was required to remove the telescopic sights but there was evidence that this was not normally done because of the time it took to realign them
 
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Re: Anthony Pargeter's guns - total confusion
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2020, 02:46:02 AM »
G-unit post: http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=11235.msg574545#msg574545

« Reply #132 on: February 17, 2020, 12:24:30 PM »

Quote from: Holly Goodhead on February 17, 2020, 11:46:59 AM
Where did the visit take place and who was the constable?

There's no evidence of any padlocked cupboard.  Firearms were found all over the place: shotgun left against wall of downstairs office, hundreds of rounds of ammo in cupboard under stairs, NB's nephew, Anthony Pargeter, stored his firearms in the downstairs bathroom and 1 or 2 firearm(s) were found in an unused staircase.  All were readily accessible to anyone in the farmhouse.

G-unit states:
The book doesn't say, but it's quite possible it was an arranged visit to check that the security attangements were in place because that's a condition of a firearms licence. As you say, keeping the guns safe wasn't something Nevill paid attention to on a daily basis, there were guns everywhere. On 18th July Neville picked up a rifle and some ammunition from that same settle where Jeremy left a rifle on the day of the shootings, according to Robert Boutflower. Gun safety wasn't a priority in that house imo.
[Lee's book page 137]
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