Author Topic: "Innocents Betrayed " by Sandra Lean  (Read 683983 times)

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Offline Parky41

Re: "Innocents Betrayed " by Sandra Lean
« Reply #3675 on: August 13, 2023, 06:53:27 PM »
Something else you appear to have got wrong.

From the Herald 2007

“ I ask about Luke Mitchell, who in 2005 was sentenced to life imprisonment for murdering his 14-year-old girlfriend, Jodi Jones. Mitchell’s appeal is scheduled for January 8 next year. It is thought that Findlay takes the case very personally.

“Of course it’s an important case,” he says. “There was an appalling loss of life. That young girl had done nobody any harm and had her whole life ahead of her. But equally, he’s a young boy who had his whole life ahead of him, and you want to be pretty sure that guilt was proved beyond reasonable doubt before you convict on that evidence. I get the sense that there is an air of disquiet about the verdict that wasn’t there at the time of the trial, and with some justification.”

From the very same

"It is sometimes written that Findlay only gets the hopeless cases, but he denies being some Houdini-for-hire helping criminals escape justice. He says his role in the justice system is to ensure guilty people are convicted. In other words, he uses his considerable skills to test the evidence against his clients, and if they are sent to prison, then that must mean they really did commit the crime. His most successful defence was that of former gangster Paul [Name removed], who in 1992 was found not guilty of all seven charges against him, including that of murdering Arthur Thompson Jr."

From the lions mouth, he lost and as any defence lawyer does do - They question themselves, however he states himself "then that must mean they really did commit the crime ---"

And he is of course blasted by the very same support - Using those skills yet failed to produce that non guilty verdict, which and again tells you the strength of the evidence and not it's weakness. - Not entirely sure of the comment around not reading a Scottish paper for 8 yrs since 1999? Dam, he sure read them throughout this case though, didn't he?

Offline faithlilly

Re: "Innocents Betrayed " by Sandra Lean
« Reply #3676 on: August 13, 2023, 07:36:45 PM »
From the very same

"It is sometimes written that Findlay only gets the hopeless cases, but he denies being some Houdini-for-hire helping criminals escape justice. He says his role in the justice system is to ensure guilty people are convicted. In other words, he uses his considerable skills to test the evidence against his clients, and if they are sent to prison, then that must mean they really did commit the crime. His most successful defence was that of former gangster Paul [Name removed], who in 1992 was found not guilty of all seven charges against him, including that of murdering Arthur Thompson Jr."

From the lions mouth, he lost and as any defence lawyer does do - They question themselves, however he states himself "then that must mean they really did commit the crime ---"

And he is of course blasted by the very same support - Using those skills yet failed to produce that non guilty verdict, which and again tells you the strength of the evidence and not it's weakness. - Not entirely sure of the comment around not reading a Scottish paper for 8 yrs since 1999? Dam, he sure read them throughout this case though, didn't he?

“ I get the sense that there is an air of disquiet about the verdict that wasn’t there at the time of the trial, and with some justification.”

From the lion’s mouth too.

A case light on evidence can still bring in a guilty verdict. Ask anyone who has ever suffered a miscarriage of justice.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Chris_Halkides

When evidence is not collected
« Reply #3677 on: August 13, 2023, 08:09:35 PM »
There are some areas in which the defense could have made a better presentation.  Yet there is no defense against the problem of evidence that was not collected (and it makes no difference whether the failure was through incompetence or deliberate neglect).  If the police had identified AB's car in CCTV footage or collected cell tower evidence regarding Luke's phone, either might have been highly probative.  Had they preserved the crime scene better, it might be a very different situation.  There is also no defense against the problem of evidence being withheld, and the Malkinson case is a timely reminder that this happens more often that one would wish it did.

Offline faithlilly

Re: When evidence is not collected
« Reply #3678 on: August 13, 2023, 08:33:33 PM »
There are some areas in which the defense could have made a better presentation.  Yet there is no defense against the problem of evidence that was not collected (and it makes no difference whether the failure was through incompetence or deliberate neglect).  If the police had identified AB's car in CCTV footage or collected cell tower evidence regarding Luke's phone, either might have been highly probative.  Had they preserved the crime scene better, it might be a very different situation.  There is also no defense against the problem of evidence being withheld, and the Malkinson case is a timely reminder that this happens more often that one would wish it did.

It would appear that Luke was not convicted because of the weight of evidence against him but rather because the evidence that may have exonerated him was never requested. Having a legal team in place relatively late in the day almost certainly disadvantaged his defence considerably too.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Mr Apples

Re: When evidence is not collected
« Reply #3679 on: August 14, 2023, 12:25:25 AM »
It would appear that Luke was not convicted because of the weight of evidence against him but rather because the evidence that may have exonerated him was never requested. Having a legal team in place relatively late in the day almost certainly disadvantaged his defence considerably too.

If ever there was a prime example of being glib, this is it. Can you expand on this? Extra points if you don't mention gps evidence (or lack of it). Lol! Let's face it, even with the late appointment of Damien Thorn's legal team, they still had the time & resources to get the gps evidence sorted out -- or any other evidence they needed at the time. However, if I remember correctly, GPS evidence back in 2003 was futile, as it could not track a person's whereabouts down specifically or within acceptable legal parameters; certainly not accurate enough to be used by either the defence or prosecution? Surely it would have been used if it could further a legal argument in court?

Offline Chris_Halkides

Re: When evidence is not collected
« Reply #3680 on: August 14, 2023, 04:08:35 AM »
If ever there was a prime example of being glib, this is it. Can you expand on this? Extra points if you don't mention gps evidence (or lack of it). Lol! Let's face it, even with the late appointment of Damien Thorn's legal team, they still had the time & resources to get the gps evidence sorted out -- or any other evidence they needed at the time. However, if I remember correctly, GPS evidence back in 2003 was futile, as it could not track a person's whereabouts down specifically or within acceptable legal parameters; certainly not accurate enough to be used by either the defence or prosecution? Surely it would have been used if it could further a legal argument in court?
Mr. Apples,

I am not sure why you are singling out GPS data, as opposed to cell phone data more generally.  There have been cases in which cell phone data has been strongly debated (Adnan Syed, in 1999).  The defense was prepared to offer cell phone data in the Duke lacrosse case (2006).  The law firm defending Frank Esposito against the charge of arson (circa 2000) felt that the cell phone data was so probative that when the family's money ran out, they spent a considerable amount of their own money.  The failure to collect data in this case falls entirely at the doorstep of the police.


Offline Parky41

Re: When evidence is not collected
« Reply #3681 on: August 14, 2023, 10:07:07 AM »
If ever there was a prime example of being glib, this is it. Can you expand on this? Extra points if you don't mention gps evidence (or lack of it). Lol! Let's face it, even with the late appointment of Damien Thorn's legal team, they still had the time & resources to get the gps evidence sorted out -- or any other evidence they needed at the time. However, if I remember correctly, GPS evidence back in 2003 was futile, as it could not track a person's whereabouts down specifically or within acceptable legal parameters; certainly not accurate enough to be used by either the defence or prosecution? Surely it would have been used if it could further a legal argument in court?

Correct Mr Apples - This repetition of implanting fallacy continues as someone else works their way through the book. The cell cite analysis at the time was indeed futile and very much a reason why the defence could do no more with it. Within a mile radius of accuracy from the nearest mast/provider. As the crow flies between two points, west and east, they could only determine it was used between those areas. Not its exact spot. Using of course phone logs (that are still hidden), to show LM using the speaking clock whilst out and about, times he was unlikely to have been home, on his way to school, lunch time and so forth. DF could do not better with cell cite analysis that was unable to pin point and exact location within a mile radius. Within the area of LM's movements that day.

They really are all over the shop with constant contradictions - What codswallop, pulling out the evidence may not have been strong, just that defence did not do all these things we think they should have done, who are these people to place themselves above the expertise of DF on the basis of fallacy fed to them?

CCTV, do they even stop to think what they are actually saying here, spinning different words on that same yarn, making it sound like their own idea when it is clearly not. 2003 and the shop in Newtongrange was "Morning, Noon and Night" not part of the coop group until later. Checking that CCTV for timings and people in the area such as the boys on the cycles, they caught/captured CM in a place she claimed not to be, giving alibi to her son at this point falsely. So certainly with CCTV it aided that investigation, around dishonesty for a start. To then have the honesty of AO's, who had told police of his route, when they checked he was exactly where he stated, using this as a starting point to time the schoolgirl leaving her home. Sl's inbuilt trial attendee in the shape of LM is the last person to be relying upon where honesty is concerned, he was proven beyond all doubt to be just that, a compulsive liar.

The store AB used had NO internal CCTV, not even sure it has any to date, it did however, as does both the ones in Newtongrange and Mayfield, have cameras at the cashpoint externally. Trouble with the one AB used, it was out front and not in the car park area, where it would not capture anything of leaving and exiting towards the east. Mayfield pretty much the same, Newtongrange to the side and facing on to most of the car park. Not sure when this changed to a coop, before or after 2003.

Therefore the bank statement was used for that transaction, the till mechanism tested, shown without argument to have been faulty. But we have Chris keep on spinning that same narrative, excess time to view a house that was not actively viewed inside or out really. But a minute approx from the entrance of that path and the sighting heading south. But, and those contradictions of course, DF was simply the bees knees as they zone in on those tiny areas he attempted with witnesses, making out of this great succession with them! Face them with the failure and it is, oh he should have done all these things, that he quite clearly could not do! Like the dog expert, faced with those statements, faced with LM's lies around position and so forth. a futile exercise to introduce some dog expert when none of them were where LM tried to claim.

And they just keep on lying, not mistakes, not errors, full on lies - What is one to do however when trying to promote a compulsive liars account? But lie along with him and add more on top. Harping on and on about "hidden" anything without PROOF, whilst we can see 100% with proof, that the only person doing any 'hiding' is of course LM, controlling to the max what his enablers put out.


Offline faithlilly

Re: When evidence is not collected
« Reply #3682 on: August 14, 2023, 10:53:34 AM »
Correct Mr Apples - This repetition of implanting fallacy continues as someone else works their way through the book. The cell cite analysis at the time was indeed futile and very much a reason why the defence could do no more with it. Within a mile radius of accuracy from the nearest mast/provider. As the crow flies between two points, west and east, they could only determine it was used between those areas. Not its exact spot. Using of course phone logs (that are still hidden), to show LM using the speaking clock whilst out and about, times he was unlikely to have been home, on his way to school, lunch time and so forth. DF could do not better with cell cite analysis that was unable to pin point and exact location within a mile radius. Within the area of LM's movements that day.

They really are all over the shop with constant contradictions - What codswallop, pulling out the evidence may not have been strong, just that defence did not do all these things we think they should have done, who are these people to place themselves above the expertise of DF on the basis of fallacy fed to them?

CCTV, do they even stop to think what they are actually saying here, spinning different words on that same yarn, making it sound like their own idea when it is clearly not. 2003 and the shop in Newtongrange was "Morning, Noon and Night" not part of the coop group until later. Checking that CCTV for timings and people in the area such as the boys on the cycles, they caught/captured CM in a place she claimed not to be, giving alibi to her son at this point falsely. So certainly with CCTV it aided that investigation, around dishonesty for a start. To then have the honesty of AO's, who had told police of his route, when they checked he was exactly where he stated, using this as a starting point to time the schoolgirl leaving her home. Sl's inbuilt trial attendee in the shape of LM is the last person to be relying upon where honesty is concerned, he was proven beyond all doubt to be just that, a compulsive liar.

The store AB used had NO internal CCTV, not even sure it has any to date, it did however, as does both the ones in Newtongrange and Mayfield, have cameras at the cashpoint externally. Trouble with the one AB used, it was out front and not in the car park area, where it would not capture anything of leaving and exiting towards the east. Mayfield pretty much the same, Newtongrange to the side and facing on to most of the car park. Not sure when this changed to a coop, before or after 2003.

Therefore the bank statement was used for that transaction, the till mechanism tested, shown without argument to have been faulty. But we have Chris keep on spinning that same narrative, excess time to view a house that was not actively viewed inside or out really. But a minute approx from the entrance of that path and the sighting heading south. But, and those contradictions of course, DF was simply the bees knees as they zone in on those tiny areas he attempted with witnesses, making out of this great succession with them! Face them with the failure and it is, oh he should have done all these things, that he quite clearly could not do! Like the dog expert, faced with those statements, faced with LM's lies around position and so forth. a futile exercise to introduce some dog expert when none of them were where LM tried to claim.

And they just keep on lying, not mistakes, not errors, full on lies - What is one to do however when trying to promote a compulsive liars account? But lie along with him and add more on top. Harping on and on about "hidden" anything without PROOF, whilst we can see 100% with proof, that the only person doing any 'hiding' is of course LM, controlling to the max what his enablers put out.

Thank goodness that a small shop like Morning, Noon and Night had a functioning CCTV system in order to pick up Corrine’s movements and how unfortunate that there was not one working camera outside the large supermarket used by Andrina Bryson, or indeed any of the rather busy roads used to get her to her sighting, that was able to pick her up too. In fact you seem to be suggesting that the only cameras that were working were ones that bolstered the prosecution’s case. Is that correct? No cameras on the Newbattle Road either it would seem which could have taken the guesswork out of Walsh and Fleming’s sighting. Such a long, main road and it would seem absolutely no CCTV cameras.

Do people actually believe this?

« Last Edit: August 14, 2023, 11:52:49 AM by faithlilly »
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Chris_Halkides

Triangulation and cell phone data
« Reply #3683 on: August 14, 2023, 01:51:46 PM »
https://pursuitmag.com/locating-mobile-phones-through-pinging-and-triangulation/
In 2008 L. Scott Harrell wrote, "With the older style analog cellular phones and digital mobile phones that are not GPS capable the cellular network provider can determine where the phone is to within a hundred feet or so using “triangulation” because at any one time, the phone is usually able to communicate with more than one of the aerial arrays provided by the phone network. The cell towers are typically 6 to 12 miles apart (less in cities) and a phone is usually within range of at least three of them. By comparing the signal strength and time lag for the phone’s carrier signal to reach at each tower, the network provider can triangulate the phone’s approximate position."
In the Duke Lacrosse case CF's defense team was prepared to present data on triangulation had the case gone to trial.  My understanding is that the accuracy depends upon the density of cell towers, and I have seen estimates that were less precise that that offered above, more on the order of 500 meters.  I am not claiming that cell phone data would necessarily have been probative, only that it should have been obtained.  My understanding is that it is about a mile between LM's house and the beginning of the path in Easthouses.

« Last Edit: August 14, 2023, 04:44:03 PM by Chris_Halkides »

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: When evidence is not collected
« Reply #3684 on: August 14, 2023, 04:53:28 PM »
Thank goodness that a small shop like Morning, Noon and Night had a functioning CCTV system in order to pick up Corrine’s movements and how unfortunate that there was not one working camera outside the large supermarket used by Andrina Bryson, or indeed any of the rather busy roads used to get her to her sighting, that was able to pick her up too. In fact you seem to be suggesting that the only cameras that were working were ones that bolstered the prosecution’s case. Is that correct? No cameras on the Newbattle Road either it would seem which could have taken the guesswork out of Walsh and Fleming’s sighting. Such a long, main road and it would seem absolutely no CCTV cameras.

Do people actually believe this?
Was the defence denied access to this CCTV you presume exists to support Luke’s claims?
Not a handwriting expert.

Offline Rusty

Re: When evidence is not collected
« Reply #3685 on: August 14, 2023, 06:53:40 PM »
So what have i missed. I guess i need a catch-up on Leans con. Then again, maybe not, same old recycled nonsense getting spouted.


No cameras on the Newbattle Road either it would seem which could have taken the guesswork out of Walsh and Fleming’s sighting. Such a long, main road and it would seem absolutely no CCTV cameras.


Anyway, this, from the resident troll, made me chuckle. It is always best to do one's homework, and this once again proves how very little this particular poster knows about anything. Making things up, trying to sensationalize, as well as trying to re-write history.

The B703 (Newbattle Road) Is a minor road, connecting the B6482 from the village of Newtongrange to the B6392 Eskbank roundabout, it is around 1.5 miles in length and is tree lined on both sides the majority of the way. A country type road if you like.
Now in the early 2000's, maybe somebody can correct me, with evidence of course, that minor B road's, in the back of beyond of a couple of villages in Scotland, let along any B road in Scotland, CCTV to monitor such roads was not exactly a priority. Not even in 2023 the connecting Eskbank roundabout has no CCTV, quite a busy wee roundabout in its own right.

Do people actually believe this?

So. With a little bit of effort, research and some common sense. Yes, i absolutely believe a small country B road that is 1.5 miles long has no CCTV.

Need to do better.

Offline Kenmair

Re: When evidence is not collected
« Reply #3686 on: August 14, 2023, 07:41:22 PM »
[quote author=Rusty link=topic=11976.msg706901#msg706901

Anyway, this, from the resident troll, made me chuckle. It is always best to do one's homework...
So. With a little bit of effort, research and some common sense. Yes, i absolutely believe a small country B road that is 1.5 miles long has no CCTV.

Need to do better.
[/quote]

If only DF had done his job better and got the 2 witnesses that saw a mystery man, following Jodi and another mystery witness spotting the moped at the V in the wall from almost half a mile away. If only he'd got all this plus this CCTV footage and CellPhone data then LM might be a free man drinking afternoon tea with F'Lilly etc.

As far as I'm aware the NB Road still does not have cameras. It's a country road that our resident troll would know about after claiming to be familiar with the area and crime scene.

Offline Rusty

Re: When evidence is not collected
« Reply #3687 on: August 14, 2023, 08:34:07 PM »



If only DF had done his job better and got the 2 witnesses that saw a mystery man, following Jodi and another mystery witness spotting the moped at the V in the wall from almost half a mile away. If only he'd got all this plus this CCTV footage and CellPhone data then LM might be a free man drinking afternoon tea with F'Lilly etc.

As far as I'm aware the NB Road still does not have cameras. It's a country road that our resident troll would know about after claiming to be familiar with the area and crime scene.

Agree. It is not as if it was a funding problem, with a mouth watering £450'000 at the defences disposal and a farther £120'000 used since the conviction for multiple failed appeals.

Offline Chris_Halkides

Re: When evidence is not collected
« Reply #3688 on: August 14, 2023, 08:49:00 PM »
Was the defence denied access to this CCTV you presume exists to support Luke’s claims?
It is possible that the police failed to collect CCTV footage, just as it is possible that they collected and chose to withhold this information (the Malkinson case is a reminder that police often fail to disclose evidence).  In either situation the defense would not have access to it if it were overwritten before the defense team had time to form and take stock of the situation.  If the data existed, it might either strengthen or weaken the prosecution's case.  IMO similar comments apply to cell phone data.

This is as good a time as any to make a more general comment about the criminal justice system and alibi evidence.  It is to be expected that the police and prosecution will test alibi evidence, but they must do so in an impartial manner for the investigation yield believable results.

Offline Kenmair

Re: When evidence is not collected
« Reply #3689 on: August 14, 2023, 08:53:53 PM »
Agree. It is not as if it was a funding problem, with a mouth watering £450'000 at the defences disposal and a farther £120'000 used since the conviction for multiple failed appeals.

Lean is now accepting donations via Paypal for her ongoing 'casework' after her BuyMeACoffee campaign was cancelled for breaking their terms.